The EDITORIAL page of my local paper published a story by Bob Herbert about an investigation being conducted by the Florida Dept of Law Inforcement, directly controlled by Gov. Jeb Bush, which is going door to door, armed, and in uniform or in plain cloths, interviewing elderly black members of the Orlando Voting League, a community organization dedicated to getting black voters to the polls.  He reports that several people have been intimidated and now think that absentee voting is a crime.  The Dept alledges that there was fraud in absentee voting, but officials declined to reveal details.  Herbert concludes his essay by saying "The long and ugly tradition of suppressing the black vote is alive and well in the Sunshine State."  Democracy in action?  Comments?

There are people at this moment who are justifying voting for bush even knowing he and his brother engineered the usurpation of the vote for 56,000 lawfully  registered African-Americans in the 2000 election.  I want ot hear from them now and tell me how they are justifying this.  It comes down to the same think.  "Hey, it's just the blacks, right."  >:(

'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.' 

There are people at this moment who are justifying voting for bush even knowing he and his brother engineered the usurpation of the vote for 56,000 lawfully  registered African-Americans in the 2000 election.  I want ot hear from them now and tell me how they are justifying this.  It comes down to the same think.  "Hey, it's just the blacks, right."  >:(

'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.' 




Good quote. Used it a few times myself.



Cat

Good quote. Used it a few times myself.



Cat


With too many it just doesn't sink in, until they come for them.

With too many it just doesn't sink in, until they come for them.




Yup-exactly. Some people can't see beyond the nose on their face.



Cat

I am heartsick about this.  Maybe I was naive to think my country had grown up over the past 40 years, but this stinks of Jim Crow mentality.

I agree with the Congressional reps who proposed the U.N. monitor the elections.  U.N. monitors are certainly needed in Florida.  Jeb Bush is a scofflaw.  He needs to be impeached.  He should have been impeached four years ago!
The Florida Republicans have PROVEN several times they can't be trusted.  You know what you have to do with people you can't trust?  You have to WATCH them.  The U.S. Supreme Court proved in 2001 that it was crooked and could not arbitrate in a non-partisan manner.  Our civic structure is in jeopardy.  It's time for international law to step in. 
Of course, this will never happen.  The Republicans WILL steal the Presidential election again if at all possilbe.  The should be warned they are playing with fire.  I see rioting, shooting, burning, and high death tolls if the Republican party in Florida continues to show such contempt for the rule of law.

  Jeb Bush is a scofflaw.  He needs to be impeached.  He should have been impeached four years ago!


Well the people of Florida had their chance to get rid of him in 2002 when he ran for re-election for the governor of that state and what happened?  He beat the democratic nominee by 19 points!

Talk about getting off the subject. ::)

Now, getting back to the original theme of this thread............DC, did the editorial say why these elderly black citizens were being "interviewed"? I mean, what reason did the Florida Dept of Law Inforcement (sic) give, first to the people that were being interviewed, and later, to the media when questioned about it?

(As I do a slow burn) There isn't any reason whatsover that a law enforcement officer should
in anyway be involved with the voting process other than directing traffic or keeping pollsters
away from intimidating voters.  What these law enforcement officers were doing was intimidating
voters.  They were speaking to the people who remember quite clearly what is was like when an
African American could be shot, or among "the disappeared" if they tried to vote.  I am sure there
are some who will not vote now out of fear.  Think of that.  jeb bush has intimidated voters into
being too afraid to vote.  And, GW, we know there were "irregularities" with the voting process
to the tune of 56,000 votes in the AfricanAmerican community in the past presidential "election".
Do you really think that this did not happen in the governors "election"? I remember the fight for
voters rights and the fact that people in American died in order that I may vote.  I can only surmise
that people who support the politicians who work actively the repeal my right are in agreement with
the notion that "it is only the blacks, and they don't count."  Now tell me, am I wrong?  If I am tell me
why.  UN Observers?  It is a disgrace that this has to happen in the US, It is the bush family who has
brought us to this.

Well the people of Florida had their chance to get rid of him in 2002 when he ran for re-election for the governor of that state and what happened?  He beat the democratic nominee by 19 points!


In fact here is an old article on this subject as written in The New York Post:

It was the prizefight of the nation's statheouses and Jeb Bush was declared winner by a knockout in Florida Tuesday.

Easily fending off Democratic opponent Bill McBride's glancing blows, incumbent Jeb Bush knocked the Tampa lawyer on his backside with a double-digit margin of victory of 19 percent.

As of 8:35 p.m. ET, with 25 percent of electorate reporting, Bush's way back to Tallahassee was paved with 59 percent of the vote compared to McBride's 40 percent.

The handy victory is a relief for the GOP and big brother President George W. Bush and it deprives the Dems of the black eye they'd hoped to give the Bush family in revenge for the 2000 presidential election -- torturously decided in the Sunshine State.

Both parties' biggest heavyweights took off the gloves for this match. President Bush campaigned for his little brother and urged voters from both parties to return Jeb Bush back to power for another term while Bush’s predecessor, President Clinton, and onetime presidential rival, Al Gore, tried to motivate Dems to head to the polls.

"It's the duel of the presidents," said Susan MacManus, a University of South Florida political science professor.


The critical issue in the race was education, with Bush defending his record and proposals and McBride playing the role of critical outsider.

Bush had also suffered embarrassing events like the arrest of his daughter on drug charges, but remained upbeat and confident. Observing that Clinton, Gore, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton were all stumping in the state for McBride, he said he doubted the four would have any impact on the election.

"Multiply that by 50 and I will take one George W. Bush," he said.

That seemed to work on male voters, who supported Bush with 61 percent. Women were divided 49-49 for Bush and McBride.

Sixty percent of voters with school age children supported Bush.

I once again say answer the question of the 56000.

I once again say answer the question of the 56000.


I already did in the other thread, the republicans won.  The democrats lost.  Get over it.  And besides you act like all those 56,000 would have voted Gore like perfect brain-washed democrats.  I am sick of talking about something that happened 4 years ago.  Dare we ask about those military ballots again?

I already did in the other thread, the republicans won.  The democrats lost.  Get over it.  And besides you act like all those 56,000 would have voted Gore like perfect brain-washed democrats.  I am sick of talking about something that happened 4 years ago.  Dare we ask about those military ballots again?


You will not answer because you have not answer.  We are talking the premeditated removal of  legally registered voters from the polls by the bush family before the election.  It can't happen here? in America?  Well it did, and it will again until the issue is redressed,  do not think that it cannot happen to you.

Well the people of Florida had their chance to get rid of him in 2002 when he ran for re-election for the governor of that state and what happened?  He beat the democratic nominee by 19 points!

And a shame it is.  But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be impeached!

I already did in the other thread, the republicans won.  The democrats lost.  Get over it.  And besides you act like all those 56,000 would have voted Gore like perfect brain-washed democrats.  I am sick of talking about something that happened 4 years ago.  Dare we ask about those military ballots again?



No one has said that those 56,000 would have voted for Gore. They may have voted for Bush for all we know. But we will never know because the fact remains that those 56,000 were denied their Constitutional Rights to vote. But, I would guess if they CAN vote this year, they probably won't be voting for Bush.


You are sick of talking about something that happened 4 years ago but you will talk about things that happened in 1968?




Cat

Today's (Aug 18th) paper run another editorial on this by Paul Krugman (of the New Yourk Times), which raised the issue of electronic voting, which will make stealing the next election SO much easier.  He concludes by saying "It's horrifying to think that the credibility of our democracy...is now in danger.  It's so horrifying that many prefer not to think about it.  But closing our eyes won't make the threat go away.  On the contrary, denial will only increase the chances of a disasterously suspect election."  Absolutely right.  Even you republicans have a stake in assuring an honest vote - asnd an honest count.

Carlos, have you ever noticed(and I know you have) how GW tends to turn an argument instead of addressing it,  This issue,GW, is (if you choose to address it ) that jeb bush as Governor oversaw what has proved to be serious indiscretions in the African American community in the regards to the vote in the past presidential election.  Again it has been found that he is once again committing serious indiscretions.  Afterall, the people he sent armed law enforcement officers to talk to are the same people who remember when armed law enforcement officers were the ones who could, and frequently would, beat them for attempting to vote.  They also remember when they could become one of "the disappeared" for trying to vote.  Can we assume that someone who did these things could possible have perpertrated similar tactics during his own election? Regardless of the outcome what do you think should be done to someone who uses terror tactics to usurp the democratic process. ?

Carlos, have you ever noticed(and I know you have) how GW tends to turn an argument instead of addressing it,  This issue,GW, is (if you choose to address it ) that jeb bush as Governor oversaw what has proved to be serious indiscretions in the African American community in the regards to the vote in the past presidential election.  Again it has been found that he is once again committing serious indiscretions.  Afterall, the people he sent armed law enforcement officers to talk to are the same people who remember when armed law enforcement officers were the ones who could, and frequently would, beat them for attempting to vote.  They also remember when they could become one of "the disappeared" for trying to vote.  Can we assume that someone who did these things could possible have perpertrated similar tactics during his own election? Regardless of the outcome what do you think should be done to someone who uses terror tactics to usurp the democratic process. ?


I certainly have noticed GWB's tactics, and occasionally have called him on them, as have you. 

The rest of your points are also excellant!  I'm surprised, though, that your list of abuses didn't include lynching.

My answer to your question is that they should be serving 20 to 30 in Folsom or San Quinton (and lose their right to vote  ;))

I certainly have noticed GWB's tactics, and occasionally have called him on them, as have you. 

The rest of your points are also excellant!  I'm surprised, though, that your list of abuses didn't include lynching.

My answer to your question is that they should be serving 20 to 30 in Folsom or San Quinton (and lose their right to vote  ;))

Right on!

I certainly have noticed GWB's tactics, and occasionally have called him on them, as have you. 

The rest of your points are also excellant!  I'm surprised, though, that your list of abuses didn't include lynching.

My answer to your question is that they should be serving 20 to 30 in Folsom or San Quinton (and lose their right to vote  ;))


Preaching to the choir, the parish outside with their collective heads in the sand. 

Preaching to the choir, the parish outside with their collective heads in the sand.   


You may be right, but over 150 people have read this thread, lots more than those who have posted.  I'd like to hear from some of ther "silent majority".  In any case, keep fighting the good fight, you have friends, lots of them.

Repeat a lie often enough . . .



The contention that blacks were systematically disenfranchised in the 2000 Florida vote, allowing George W. Bush to steal the state’s electoral votes and the presidency, has taken on the trappings of a tall tale or urban legend. No amount of factual evidence will deter some from believing it. And why should they, when it’s been perpetuated by so many politically motivated myth-makers.

Al Sharpton has compared what happened in Florida to the 1964 murder of civil-rights workers in Mississippi. John Kerry tells black audiences that “a million African-Americans” had their votes stolen. And the Congressional Black Caucus wants international observers in Florida on Nov. 2 to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

There’s one basic problem with these claims: They’re not true. That the U.S. Supreme Court, voting along its usual ideological divide, ended the counting in Florida means there will forever be suspicion over how the 2000 presidential election was decided. But the fact is The Washington Post, New York Times and USA Today all devoted tremendous resources to a close review of the Florida voting mess, and while they found plenty of incompetence and klutziness, they found no evidence — none — of racially driven exclusion of voters.

Peter Kirsanow of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights further points out that the rate of ballot snafus in Florida wasn’t unusual by national standards, and that in 24 of the 25 counties with the worst problems, the voting supervisor was a Democrat. But the facts seem to have no bearing on partisan perceptions. The myth of a mass racist conspiracy in Florida’s 2000 vote is now an entrenched central conviction among some activists, along with other absurdities such as the assertions that crack and AIDS were introduced in the 1980s to devastate inner cities. Given that it’s in Democrats’ interests for blacks to think of themselves as victims, it’s understandable that Kerry would promote the latest myth. But that doesn’t mean it’s not reprehensible — both the myth and its promulgation.

Repeat a lie often enough . . .



The contention that blacks were systematically disenfranchised in the 2000 Florida vote, allowing George W. Bush to steal the state’s electoral votes and the presidency, has taken on the trappings of a tall tale or urban legend. No amount of factual evidence will deter some from believing it. And why should they, when it’s been perpetuated by so many politically motivated myth-makers.
Who told you there was no factual evidence?  I've seen a heck of a lot of evidence.  So has the Florida supreme court.

Al Sharpton has compared what happened in Florida to the 1964 murder of civil-rights workers in Mississippi. John Kerry tells black audiences that “a million African-Americans” had their votes stolen. And the Congressional Black Caucus wants international observers in Florida on Nov. 2 to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
I don't need Sharpton or Kerry to tell me a d*mn thing.  The evidence against the office of Attorney General (now Rep.) Katherine Harris demonstrated a racially motivated conspiracy to illegally purge voters from the rolls.  You right-wingers can deny the evidence and disparage the investigators, but no credible source has refuted their findings.  And Governor Bush and his cronies are up to it again in 2004, wantonly violating court orders.

There’s one basic problem with these claims: They’re not true. That the U.S. Supreme Court, voting along its usual ideological divide, ended the counting in Florida means there will forever be suspicion over how the 2000 presidential election was decided. But the fact is The Washington Post, New York Times and USA Today all devoted tremendous resources to a close review of the Florida voting mess, and while they found plenty of incompetence and klutziness, they found no evidence — none — of racially driven exclusion of voters.
The U.S. mainstream press is a timid animal.  What am I to conclude when the Supreme Court concludes that a continuing recount would do irreversible damage to Bush, so it must be stopped?  What shall I say when Justice O'Connor says she wanted to retire, but she can't retire if a Democrat is in office to appoint her successor?  Vincent Bugliosi, no bleeding heart liberal himself, declared these interfering justices ought to be impeached and and thrown in prison.

Peter Kirsanow of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights further points out that the rate of ballot snafus in Florida wasn’t unusual by national standards, and that in 24 of the 25 counties with the worst problems, the voting supervisor was a Democrat. But the facts seem to have no bearing on partisan perceptions. The myth of a mass racist conspiracy in Florida’s 2000 vote is now an entrenched central conviction among some activists, along with other absurdities such as the assertions that crack and AIDS were introduced in the 1980s to devastate inner cities. Given that it’s in Democrats’ interests for blacks to think of themselves as victims, it’s understandable that Kerry would promote the latest myth. But that doesn’t mean it’s not reprehensible — both the myth and its promulgation.

In re: Kirsanow, I quote Palast:
Of Florida's sixty-seven counties, Gadsden has the highest proportion of black residents: 58 percent. It also has the highest "spoilage" rate, that is, ballots tossed out on technicalities: one in eight votes cast but not counted. Next door to Gadsden is white-majority Leon County, where virtually every vote is counted (a spoilage rate of one in 500).

How do votes spoil? Apparently, any old odd mark on a ballot will do it. In Gadsden, some voters wrote in Al Gore instead of checking his name. Their votes did not count.

Harvard law professor Christopher Edley Jr., a member of the Commission on Civil Rights, didn't like the smell of all those spoiled ballots. He dug into the pile of tossed ballots and, deep in the commission's official findings, reported this: 14.4 percent of black votes--one in seven--were "invalidated," i.e., never counted. By contrast, only 1.6 percent of nonblack voters' ballots were spoiled.

Florida's electorate is 11 percent African-American. Florida refused to count 179,855 spoiled ballots. A little junior high school algebra applied to commission numbers indicates that 54 percent, or 97,000, of the votes "spoiled" were cast by black folk, of whom more than 90 percent chose Gore. The nonblack vote divided about evenly between Gore and Bush. Therefore, had Harris allowed the counting of these ballots, Al Gore would have racked up a plurality of about 87,000 votes in Florida--162 times Bush's official margin of victory.


And do you think some dinky Democrat election supervisors could stand in the way of Governor Bush and Atty. Gen. Harris when not even Florida supreme court orders deterred these two thugs from their nefarious activities?  What am I going to say about "Uncle Tom" Kirsanow who called the 3% spoilage rate in Florida "not so bad," and would not address the specificity of the which and the where of the spoilage?  Peter Kirsanow expects me to be content that fewer blacks were disenfranchised in Florida than rumored!  Oh, so thousands of African-Americans, who vote 90% Democrat, were illegally purged from the voter rolls in an election supposedly "won" by five-hundred-something votes, but it's OK because not so many were purged as was rumored.  Huh? Come again?
Fuhgetaboutit!
::) :P

PS. I don't believe there was a government conspiracy behind AIDS.  I don't believe there was a deliberate effort to introduce crack into the poor neighborhoods in the U.S., but I do believe the crack epidemic was a result of the inept and corrupt polices of the Reagan Administration, but that's a different kettle of fish.

MAN! It's SO cool to see how long it takes you libs to reply to a post knocking your "Party"....try not to cry too much when Bush WINS, again ;) OH, and lastly, have a drink for me at Babs' house :P

MAN! It's SO cool to see how long it takes you libs to reply to a post knocking your "Party"....try not to cry too much when Bush WINS, again ;) OH, and lastly, have a drink for me at Babs' house :P

When the h*ll was I knocking "my own party"?

I am a liberal, but the Democratic party is only "my" party conditional upon its performance.  I do criticize the Dems.  See, it's like Al Franken says, and I would apply this to political parties as well, liberals' relationship to their government is like that of an adult's relationships to other adults.  Conservatives' relationship to their government is like a three year old's relationship to his mommy and daddy.  'Nuff said.
I myself liken the conservative attitude to a high school football rivalry.  The Republicans never leave the pep rally.  Dubya is Riverdale High's star quarterback, Kerry is Central's.
I always thought in high school those signs before homecoming that said "Kill Newburyport" might lead to an unhealthy civic attitude.  Perhaps they have.
Grow up you people!

When the h*ll was I knocking "my own party"?

I am a liberal, but the Democratic party is only "my" party conditional upon its performance.  I do criticize the Dems.  See, it's like Al Franken says, and I would apply this to political parties as well, liberals' relationship to their government is like that of an adult's relationships to other adults.  Conservatives' relationship to their government is like a three year old's relationship to his mommy and daddy.  'Nuff said.
I myself liken the conservative attitude to a high school football rivalry.  The Republicans never leave the pep rally.  Dubya is Riverdale High's star quarterback, Kerry is Central's.
I always thought in high school those signs before homecoming that said "Kill Newburyport" might lead to an unhealthy civic attitude.  Perhaps they have.
Grow up you people!

Well said, Max ;)

All I have to say about the "voting practices" in the country right now is that the thought of "computerized ballots" scares the He|| out of me.  Heck, if some 14 y.o. can hack into the Pentagon system, who in their right mind belives that the "electronic" system can't be hacked into?  I say we go back to the old days when you had to write the name of the candidate on the ballot.  The names are different enough there would be no controversy.  Sure, it might take a little longer to count, but they've got 2+ months between the election and the induction ceremony, surely they can count them in that amount of time.
So long as the reults don't piss everyone off......

IMO, who cares???  No matter what happens, there will be someone ticked off that "their" candidate didn't win, but if we had to actually write the candidate, there would be no controversy as the names aren't even close. 

When you have the CEO of Diebold, the voting machine manufacturer say he's committed to delivering Ohio for Bush, you've got a problem. 
Computerized voting has been shown in theory, and proved in action, to be more vulnerable to tampering and fraud than any other method.  Yet, our government has PUSHED computerized voting via the "Help America Vote Act."  IMHO, this shows our own government's contempt for elected democracy, their contempt for us--the voters, and their allegiance to our corporate overlords.
FUGGEM ALL!

IMO, who cares???  No matter what happens, there will be someone ticked off that "their" candidate didn't win, but if we had to actually write the candidate, there would be no controversy as the names aren't even close. 
True enough :-\\

MAN! It's SO cool to see how long it takes you libs to reply to a post knocking your "Party"....try not to cry too much when Bush WINS, again ;) OH, and lastly, have a drink for me at Babs' house :P




I am a lib but the Democratic party is NOT "my party". I am an Independent. I vote for the person who I think is the "lesser of two evils".





Cat

MAN! It's SO cool to see how long it takes you libs to reply to a post knocking your "Party"....try not to cry too much when Bush WINS, again ;) OH, and lastly, have a drink for me at Babs' house :P


Perhaps you should take as long getting your facts straight.

BodaciousBoy's refusal to look at the real problems with the 2000 election and his focus on the recount question just demonstrates that Max is right.  Democracy isn't the issue for some of these folks.  Disenfranchizing people is fine, lying is fine, misleading is fine, as long as it promotes the neocon agenda.

When you have the CEO of Diebold, the voting machine manufacturer say he's committed to delivering Ohio for Bush, you've got a problem.

You can't be serious, surely?


Computerized voting has been shown in theory, and proved in action, to be more vulnerable to tampering and fraud than any other method. Yet, our government has PUSHED computerized voting via the "Help America Vote Act." IMHO, this shows our own government's contempt for elected democracy, their contempt for us--the voters, and their allegiance to our corporate overlords.
FUGGEM ALL!

This is almost worth starting off on its own thread for computerised voting... In principle, I have nothing against it, but with several strictures: firstly there must be no "commercial in confidence" code, however verified.  All code running on voting machines must be open-source and verifiable by anybody who wants to download the source code - as software goes, it's ridiculously simple: any company that can't get voting systems to work properly first time should be dumped and someone competent hired (given Diebold's history, I am wholly incredulous that they have been re-hired by any of the states who used them first time around)

You can't be serious, surely?






He is serious-and don't call him "Shirley".  ;) ;D ;D





Cat

He is serious-and don't call him "Shirley".  ;) ;D ;D





Cat

Hey! You stole MY joke!  I guess I'm not the only one who watched "Airplane" too many times...
::)

Anyway, yes, the CEO of Diebold REALLY did say that.  http://www.pww.org/article/view/5198/1/214/
It's disgraceful that any state has enough confidence in Diebold to buy their voting equipment!
:o

Hey! You stole MY joke!  I guess I'm not the only one who watched "Airplane" too many times...
::)





Sorry, couldn't resist.



Cat

"Shirley" is right as far as he goes, but its not just Dibold.  The whole notion of not recountable voting is just too dangerous.

"Shirley" is right as far as he goes, but its not just Dibold. The whole notion of not recountable voting is just too dangerous.

I agree - at the very least, the voting machine should print out a voting slip which can be verified by the voter before putting into a ballot box; then if (or when) a problem is suspected, the physical record can be checked (and random spot-checks carried out, too)


I guess I'm not the only one who watched "Airplane" too many times...

Nope.  Me, too :)  Though I have just had to explain a load of the jokes in "Spy Hard" to my children...

I'll bet that if John Kerry wins in November by a close margin, the GOP will accuse the Democrats of voter fraud, and their accusations will be motivated primarily out of revenge. And they won't be entirely without historical precedent. In the 1960 election, John F. Kennedy beat Richard Nixon by roughly 300,000 votes. It is alleged that Chicago mafia boss Sam Giancana wielded his influence over the unions to deliver enough votes to ensure Kennedy's victory. No matter who wins this year, the other side will almost surely cry foul, and I wouldn't put it past either party to attempt some "dirty tricks."

I'll bet that if John Kerry wins in November by a close margin, the GOP will accuse the Democrats of voter fraud, and their accusations will be motivated primarily out of revenge. And they won't be entirely without historical precedent. In the 1960 election, John F. Kennedy beat Richard Nixon by roughly 300,000 votes. It is alleged that Chicago mafia boss Sam Giancana wielded his influence over the unions to deliver enough votes to ensure Kennedy's victory. No matter who wins this year, the other side will almost surely cry foul, and I wouldn't put it past either party to attempt some "dirty tricks."

Proof is pretty much conclusive that Chicago's Mayor Daley helped Kennedy fix the election in Chicago, and thus the nation.  Like Florida in 2000, the race was pretty much dead even.

Republicans accused Democrats of having a double standard, complaining Dems didn't complain in 1960, Republicans thus inadvertantly acknowledging they DID steal the election in 2000.  I argue the point is moot.  If Nixon had won fair and square in 1960 we'd all have been exterminated in a thermonuclear war.  I mean, can you imagine Tricky Dick trying to negotiate us through the Cuban Missile Crisis?
:o

Proof is pretty much conclusive that Chicago's Mayor Daley helped Kennedy fix the election in Chicago, and thus the nation.  Like Florida in 2000, the race was pretty much dead even.

Republicans accused Democrats of having a double standard, complaining Dems didn't complain in 1960, Republicans thus inadvertantly acknowledging they DID steal the election in 2000.  I argue the point is moot.  If Nixon had won fair and square in 1960 we'd all have been exterminated in a thermonuclear war.  I mean, can you imagine Tricky dip trying to negotiate us through the Cuban Missile Crisis?
:o
Sure but it wasn't a Republican who stuck us IN the Vietnam War. That credit goes to Lyndon Johnson. A great leader who LIED in the Stars & Stripes saying that we had dominated the very first battles over there, when indeed from the mouth of the leader of the very first men there says he was shocked and scared when he read that since most of his men had been killed. Sorry, but That is a FACT. Oh, and at least Bush admits he had a drinking prblem years ago, while your BOY Clinton made a joke that he had never inhaled pot, which, BTW, alcohol is LEGAL while pot is Not :-X

Sure but it wasn't a Republican who stuck us IN the Vietnam War. That credit goes to Lyndon Johnson. A great leader who LIED in the Stars & Stripes saying that we had dominated the very first battles over there, when indeed from the mouth of the leader of the very first men there says he was shocked and scared when he read that since most of his men had been killed. Sorry, but That is a FACT.
You're not going to find a lot of arguments in favor of Johnson's handling of Vietnam, so save your breath, so to speak.

Oh, and at least Bush admits he had a drinking prblem years ago, while your BOY Clinton made a joke that he had never inhaled pot, which, BTW, alcohol is LEGAL while pot is Not :-X

It is pathetic that in 1992 a politician couldn't just say, "I smoked pot, so what?"
I don't know that Bush quit drinking.  His behavior is still quite alcoholic.  I think he's what they call a "dry drunk."

Sure but it wasn't a Republican who stuck us IN the Vietnam War. That credit goes to Lyndon Johnson. A great leader who LIED in the Stars & Stripes saying that we had dominated the very first battles over there, when indeed from the mouth of the leader of the very first men there says he was shocked and scared when he read that since most of his men had been killed. Sorry, but That is a FACT. Oh, and at least Bush admits he had a drinking prblem years ago, while your BOY Clinton made a joke that he had never inhaled pot, which, BTW, alcohol is LEGAL while pot is Not :-X
Dwight Eisenhower (republican) "stuck us IN" 'Nam by sending "military advisors" (CIA and Army) in '58. Sorry, but THAT is a FACT. Of course your fearless leader G Dubya doesn't bother with trivial things like "facts" and the truth so why should you?

Dwight Eisenhower (republican) "stuck us IN" 'Nam by sending "military advisors" (CIA and Army) in '58. Sorry, but THAT is a FACT. Of course your fearless leader G Dubya doesn't bother with trivial things like "facts" and the truth so why should you?


I'll back Dude up on this one.  It was Eisenhower, on the tails of the Korean conflict, that sent "military
advisors" to Viet Nam.  There was serious concerns about natural resources "tin and tungsten" that
US needed, and Ike was looking to protect those interests when it became obvious that France was
ready to pull out of Viet Nam, realizing that they were fighting a losing battle.  Johnson esclated when
he should have thrown in the towel just as the French did.  I prefer to remember Johnson for his tough
stance on civil rights, so now many who were murdered for trying to vote can vote.  Small thing to some.
One more moot point alcohol was legal but cocaine wasn't, as Dubya would have known.  Perhaps
he got it from a man his father worked with in Panama, Manuel Noriega.

If Nixon had won fair and square in 1960 we'd all have been exterminated in a thermonuclear war.  I mean, can you imagine Tricky dip trying to negotiate us through the Cuban Missile Crisis?
:o
I've pondered that myself. (Have you ever seen the movie Thirteen Days? I can only imagine how Nixon would've handled that situation...)

I've pondered that myself. (Have you ever seen the movie Thirteen Days? I can only imagine how Nixon would've handled that situation...)

Seen the movie and read the book by RFK.  That's what set me to thinking about Nixon all twitchy and paranoid, and swilling liquor while millimeters away from an atomic showdown!
:o

Election Official Feels Wrath of Florida Voters
The creator of notorious 'butterfly' ballot loses primary race. She was assailed for refusing to add safeguards to touch- screen polling machines.
By John-Thor Dahlburg
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2004

MIAMI — As a final irony, there has been a last-minute discrepancy in tallying absentee ballots. Theresa A. LePore, the elections supervisor in Palm Beach County who gained notoriety as the designer of the "butterfly" ballot that helped trigger Florida's 2000 election chaos, appeared Wednesday to have lost her job.

"The voter anger was obvious, and LePore became the target this year," when she sought a third term, said Shari L. Maclachlan, a professor of political science at Palm Beach Community College.

The Democratic Party, the dominant force in her county's politics, criticized LePore, 49, for refusing to add safeguards to new touch-screen voting machines that would generate a paper trail for use in the event of a recount.

According to still uncertified results from Tuesday's primary, LePore lost to Arthur Anderson by 5,533 votes out of more than 177,000 cast. Anderson, 63, is an education professor at Florida Atlantic University and a former member of the county school board.

Although the race was nonpartisan, Anderson was championed by U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler, a Boca Raton Democrat, and boosted by campaign appearances by two former Democratic presidential candidates — Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut and former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean.

After a night spent following the returns, Anderson was sleeping and unavailable for comment, a family member at his Boca Raton home said Wednesday.

"I just want to win so I can continue doing the job I love," LePore was quoted as saying Tuesday by Associated Press. On Wednesday, co-workers in the supervisor's office said she had not come to work. LePore began working in the county elections office in West Palm Beach as a file clerk 33 years ago.

"She's worked in that office since she was 16 years old. So this is a significant shock and a loss that's going to take some time to heal," spokesman Marty Rogol said.

LePore remains in office until January and will therefore oversee another presidential election.

In 2000, LePore created the butterfly ballot, in which the names of presidential candidates were listed on opposing pages. She said she did it to make the type bigger, so the ballot would be easier for the county's seniors to read.

However, almost immediately after the polls opened, some voters complained that LePore's design had led them to vote for conservative Reform Party candidate Patrick J. Buchanan instead of the Democrat, Vice President Al Gore.

LePore quickly became the object of intense hatred and loathing, and when the Republican candidate, then-Texas Gov. George W. Bush, was declared official winner in Florida by 537 votes, some blamed her.

She replied that the Democratic and Republican parties had signed off on the ballot before the election, and she noted that Gore carried Palm Beach County by more than 116,000 votes.

"Unfortunately, Ms. LePore did not help matters for herself because she never took responsibility," said Carol Ann Loehndorf, chairwoman of the Democratic Party of Palm Beach County. "There was a continuous effort to blame the voters."

If LePore had advocated additional technology to create a paper record for the new touch-screen machines — which the supervisor purchased to prevent a repeat of the 2000 debacle — Loehndorf said Democrats would probably not have challenged her this year.

Asked to explain his boss' defeat, Rogol blamed "residual anger from 2000 and the relentless effort by Congressman Wexler to defeat her."

Wexler, who has sued in state and federal court to demand that the touch-screen machines be modified — so far to no avail — paid for a barrage of TV ads against LePore and brought in Dean and Lieberman to campaign for her rival.

Although LePore presided over nearly flawless elections in 2002, some voters this year complained that her new design for absentee ballots might lead to more miscast votes.

On Wednesday, a problem with tallying absentee ballots delayed certification of Palm Beach County returns until today at the earliest. Rogol said that 31,095 ballots had been received, but that the counting machine for some unknown reason showed it had tallied 37,839 ballots. A recount was ordered. Rogol said he did not think the county's latest election glitch would affect the final results.

LePore had been a registered Democrat until the 2000 debacle, then registered as an independent. She received support in her reelection bid from some Republicans.

It came out in the campaign that Anderson had more than $93,000 in tax liens by the Internal Revenue Service, as well as a court order deducting money from his university salary to pay a woman who had sued him for paternity and child support.

Although LePore relished the contact with voters, Democratic official Marla Gale said she had come to be perceived by many as insufficiently mindful of people's concerns.

"A lot of Democrats — and Republicans — were embarrassed at how Florida looked in the 2000 election and the jokes at our expense," said Gale, a member of the Palm Beach County Democratic Executive Committee.

"Now, a majority of people are concerned about the machines. If she were responsive, she should have been lobbying for another system."

In Broward County, another controversial elections supervisor, Miriam Oliphant — who Gov. Jeb Bush suspended for incompetence in November — was defeated Tuesday in her bid to get back her job. She lost to Brenda Snipes, the woman Bush had named as her interim replacement.

I know exactly what GWB is going to say about this, but seems like a well-respected international election monitor has doubts about the fairness of elections in Florida:

Jimmy Carter fears repeat of election fiasco in Florida

Ignoring the obvious party-political comments, why should anybody who believes in democracy stand for this sort of thing?

In May this year, Florida's secretary of state, Glenda Hood (a Bush family partisan), distributed a secret list of 48,000 alleged former felons and instructed county election supervisors to remove them from the voter rolls. When a court ordered the list published, it was found that more than 20,000 people on the list were black (black Floridians vote Democratic by more than nine to one) and only 61 were Hispanics (who are much more likely to vote Republican). The Miami Herald newspaper found at least 2,000 people should not have been on the list, having regained their voting rights.

Under Florida's laws, former convicts who have completed their sentence remain ineligible to vote for life, unless they receive a specific act of clemency. It is a racially charged issue as 58% of Florida's 600,000 former felons are African-Americans, most convicted of drug offences for which they are more frequently charged than whites.
A specific question for GWBush2004: do you think it right that a justice system which is so overtly biased should be the basis for selecting who is allowed to vote?