Dr Al-Qaradawi is coming to visit...(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3874893.stm)

Amongst other things, he considers suicide bombing (even using children) to be a valid way of fighting repression:

"I consider this type of martyrdom operation as an evidence of God's justice.

"Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do".

I just want to say that I do not believe anybody who preaches this kind of rubbish can be sincere in telling other people to go off and kill/die, when they so obviously aren't going to do it themselves.  If it really is such a great thing to do, why haven't the guys who are preaching death and destruction done it already?

It's a bit worrying that, through all the security checks we get at airports, we allow a legitimate nutter in the country. I just hope that he is in a good mood.  :)

Of course suicide bombing is wrong, and the *ssh*les who advocate it as the will of Allah are wrong too.  However, I think it's more important to look at the cause-and-effect reasons for why the phenomenon exists in the first place.

"more important", no, I don't think so; but definitely as important - there will be no peace while Israel behaves so badly; but the personal hypocrisy of sending others out to blow themselves to hell while these "spiritual" leaders talk about heaven and martyrdom really sticks in my craw.

"more important", no, I don't think so; but definitely as important - there will be no peace while Israel behaves so badly; but the personal hypocrisy of sending others out to blow themselves to hell while these "spiritual" leaders talk about heaven and martyrdom really sticks in my craw.

I hate it too, but hating it will only get you so far in diagnosis of the problem.

Dr Al-Qaradawi is coming to visit...(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3874893.stm)

Amongst other things, he considers suicide bombing (even using children) to be a valid way of fighting repression:



I just want to say that I do not believe anybody who preaches this kind of rubbish can be sincere in telling other people to go off and kill/die, when they so obviously aren't going to do it themselves.  If it really is such a great thing to do, why haven't the guys who are preaching death and destruction done it already?


Sorry, I can't buy this.  I disagree with the cause in this case, but but you are addressing the tactic.  These people, right or wrong, have a point of view and an agenda (which I find repulsive especially in its view of women) but that's not what you address.  They have no nation to support them.  They have no real army.  So, how can they get anyone's attention?  Blow people up. 

Now your issue.  They ask other men's sons to go out and die.  Did Franklin Roosevelt or Winston Churchill hit the beaches at Normandy?  Did Eisenhower or Montgomery?  They were very willing to send other men's son to die on those bloody beaches (chech out the first 15 min of Saving Private Ryan.  My dad was there, and commented that the film MINIMIXED the carnage.

OLd  men make wars and young people fight them, and die in the process.  What we have to ask is Why?  Why are some Muslims so pissed at the west?  Why can leaders rally their troops to wage war?  What are their grievances?  Look to history and you'll see.

I just want to say that I do not believe anybody who preaches this kind of rubbish can be sincere in telling other people to go off and kill/die, when they so obviously aren't going to do it themselves.  If it really is such a great thing to do, why haven't the guys who are preaching death and destruction done it already?


With any luck he may, just may, persuade Ken Livingstone (Greater London 'mayor', noted arse-kisser and one of the clowns 'welcoming' this joker) to do himself in...

That'd go down well...

With any luck he may, just may, persuade Ken Livingstone (Greater London 'mayor', noted arse-kisser and one of the clowns 'welcoming' this joker) to do himself in...

That'd go down well...


Heh heh. It would go down nice with me.  ;D

Now your issue.  They ask other men's sons to go out and die.  Did Franklin Roosevelt or Winston Churchill hit the beaches at Normandy?  Did Eisenhower or Montgomery?  They were very willing to send other men's son to die on those bloody beaches (chech out the first 15 min of Saving Private Ryan.  My dad was there, and commented that the film MINIMIXED the carnage.

OLd  men make wars and young people fight them, and die in the process.  What we have to ask is Why?  Why are some Muslims so pissed at the west?  Why can leaders rally their troops to wage war?  What are their grievances?  Look to history and you'll see.

I do not deny they have a grievance, and whether terrorism is a valid tactic given the overwhelming disparity in firepower is a separate issue... but I disagree with the contention that it's no different to all historical leaders sending their troops in to die.

Churchill, Roosevelt et al did not send their troops "to die", they sent them to do a job which they felt was necessary, but with the knowledge that some of them inevitably would die; they did not lie to their troops, promising them paradise if they go out and kill themselves, taking as many innocent lives with them as they can. 

But I guess that martyrdom is only a great thing for other people.  Having said that, it's not exactly a textbook description of martyrdom, which doesn't say anything about killing anyone else (or even killing yourself - martyrdom is allowing yourself to be killed rather than compromise your beliefs... these guys should not be described as martyrs at all)

I do not deny they have a grievance, and whether terrorism is a valid tactic given the overwhelming disparity in firepower is a separate issue... but I disagree with the contention that it's no different to all historical leaders sending their troops in to die.

Churchill, Roosevelt et al did not send their troops "to die", they sent them to do a job which they felt was necessary, but with the knowledge that some of them inevitably would die; they did not lie to their troops, promising them paradise if they go out and kill themselves, taking as many innocent lives with them as they can. 

But I guess that martyrdom is only a great thing for other people.  Having said that, it's not exactly a textbook description of martyrdom, which doesn't say anything about killing anyone else (or even killing yourself - martyrdom is allowing yourself to be killed rather than compromise your beliefs... these guys should not be described as martyrs at all)




Ok, you agree that they have grievances.  That's a start.  I agree that sendinmg other men's sons to die is not the way to resolve them.  How can we get to a point where we can talk to these people?  If I can refer you to other threads, it may have to do with controlling the corporations that have been ripping them off.  It just might have to do with things like justice.  Call me nieve if you wish, but there will never be an end to this until we force corpoate power to deal with everyone with justice and a respect for human needs.  Maybe when "the west" lives up to its Philosophy others will fall in line.  Hypocrits seldom get a lot of support.

I guess that the concept of teaching to kill-whether it be oneself or others, is beyond me. I just can't comprehend the idea.




Cat