The FBI sez terrorists may pose as the homeless.  So think before you hand over that pocket change.  That bum's not gonna drink that quarter, he's gonna build a suicide bomb with it.  Yeah, you knew all along those homeless were up to no good.  D*mned libral media showing all these pity stories about homeless people, then they turn out to be the next Al Quaeda!
:D

Remember, be calm, but be vigilent.  That streetsweeper might be a terrorist.  The bus driver might be a terrorist.  Even the window cleaner up there on the scaffold, a terrorist too.

Hey, I don't make this crap up.  I heard it on FOX News!

Oh man, does that mean I have to dig out the duct tape and plastic again?  :-\\

Didn't they also say some might try disguising themselves as pregnant women? (Heard it on Leno - the punchline: look out for pregnant women with beards.)

Didn't they also say some might try disguising themselves as pregnant women? (Heard it on Leno - the punchline: look out for pregnant women with beards.)

Yar, not to mention the ticking fetus!

I heard that they are going to arm pidgons with mini-bombs and remote detonators, and another ploy is to feed them special food that will make their dropping highly explosive.  Its a new WMD developed by Saddams scientists, manufactured in mobile labs in Iraq, and exported to this country clandestinly by  Iran (which has been in league with Saddam for years (even while they were at war).  We all better get the duct tape and plastic.  But be reassured.  The CIA is training attack pidgions to take out their nefarious cousins, armes with mini-machine guns implanted in their beaks.

The FBI sez terrorists may pose as the homeless.  So think before you hand over that pocket change.  That bum's not gonna drink that quarter, he's gonna build a suicide bomb with it.  Yeah, you knew all along those homeless were up to no good.  D*mned libral media showing all these pity stories about homeless people, then they turn out to be the next Al Quaeda!


The term used was wrong, but in many ways you are also correct.

Unlike when you rent a house or a motel room, nobody in homeless shelters asks for any form of ID.  The actual message was closer to saying to look out for people with no actual "home", but who migrate around.

But the half-truth of the homeless is true.  Look how many people wanted in LA have been found in them.  Heck, just last year one of the people featured on "America's Most Wanted" was found in a homeless shelter.  And the DC Snipers used homeless shelters to hide in, because they knew there were no questions asked.

So it is not a totally rediculous thing to say.  Shelters are excellent places for criminals and other unsavory characters to hide up in.

The term used was wrong, but in many ways you are also correct.

Unlike when you rent a house or a motel room, nobody in homeless shelters asks for any form of ID.  The actual message was closer to saying to look out for people with no actual "home", but who migrate around.

But the half-truth of the homeless is true.  Look how many people wanted in LA have been found in them.  Heck, just last year one of the people featured on "America's Most Wanted" was found in a homeless shelter.  And the DC Snipers used homeless shelters to hide in, because they knew there were no questions asked.

So it is not a totally rediculous thing to say.  Shelters are excellent places for criminals and other unsavory characters to hide up in.


I'm still being cute here, but soup kitchens have all the facilities to manufacture bothcilism.  Watchfulness is one thing, but paranoia is quite another.

The term used was wrong, but in many ways you are also correct.

Unlike when you rent a house or a motel room, nobody in homeless shelters asks for any form of ID.  The actual message was closer to saying to look out for people with no actual "home", but who migrate around.

But the half-truth of the homeless is true.  Look how many people wanted in LA have been found in them.  Heck, just last year one of the people featured on "America's Most Wanted" was found in a homeless shelter.  And the DC Snipers used homeless shelters to hide in, because they knew there were no questions asked.

So it is not a totally rediculous thing to say.  Shelters are excellent places for criminals and other unsavory characters to hide up in.

As always, the REALLY evil and dangerous people live in mansions and luxury condos.

As always, the REALLY evil and dangerous people live in mansions and luxury condos.


And THEY have been the terrorists for at least 100 years.  Get a hold of a U Utah Phillips ablum of Wobbly songs and stories.  As a Union they weren't very successful, but man, did those guys have if right.  "We have fed you all for a thousand years, yet you greet us still unfed".  Some aquiesed and bougth us off with the New Deal, Wagner Act etc. but all that is now under attack.  Looks to me  like the old days are coming back, so where are Big Bill, Gurly Flynn, Mother Jones, Ralph Chaplin and the rest?  I guess we have to become them, and I guess if Mother Jones could do it in her eigthies, I could make a stab in my 50's. 

But I guess this is off topic.

As Joe Hill said, "Don't morn, ORGANIZE"

Or Mother Jones "Pry for the dead, BUT FIGHT LIKE HELL for the living"

Or as Big Bill Haywood said (at Lawrence Mass) "Let them weave cloth with bayonets".

When will these words sink in?

When will these words sink in?

I don't know.  It's discouraging.  I see right-wing brainwashing EVERYWHERE.  Even C-Span.  C-Span covers more right-wing events, and features more right-wing guests, than left-wing or liberal ones.  Right now they've got some bullcrap up there called the "FreedomFest," featuring Mark Skousen lying about Adam Smith and Laissez-Faire capitalism. They just lie and lie and lie!
The Chicago School of Economics is where you go to learn two minus three equals five.

I'm still being cute here, but soup kitchens have all the facilities to manufacture botulism. 

:D  and they probably do.. "Weapons of Mis-Digestion" maybe


Watchfulness is one thing, but paranoia is quite another.

True... in this context, anyone, be they postman, pilot or itinerant could be a terrorist... but being scared of all these groups doesn't help one iota.

Replace the word "terrorist" with the word "communist," go back to 1954, and see the parallel.

Hit the nail on the head, Maxwell: with the decline of Communism, the PTB have obvoiusly decided that the state needs an Enemy (with a capital E)... a bogeyman to point at in order to justify huge defence expenditure, more intrusion from police et al., removal of civil rights etc. etc.

Replace the word "terrorist" with the word "communist," go back to 1954, and see the parallel.



I have said this once before. I can't remember if it was an old thread here on the message board or in a letter to the editor. You are definately right. The Bush Administration is bringing back McCarthism in full-force. A VERY, VERY dangerous road to go down. You would think we (as in the U.S.) would have learned the lesson from the 50s, but I guess not.  :(



Cat

I have said this once before. I can't remember if it was an old thread here on the message board or in a letter to the editor. You are definately right. The Bush Administration is bringing back McCarthism in full-force. A VERY, VERY dangerous road to go down. You would think we (as in the U.S.) would have learned the lesson from the 50s, but I guess not.  :(



Cat

As Philbo points out, the military-industrial complex always needs an enemy.  Preferably, the enemy should be one who can infiltrate our population, our institutions, our government, and then--BLAMMO!--nail us when we least suspect it.  Yes, a "bogeyman" if you will.
The Soviet Union was our military rival.  There were indeed Soviet spies in the government.  However, their numbers and power were greatly exaggerated.  Ann Coulter has revived this myth in her wretched piece of pulp punditry called Treason. 
In the '50s, the commies were not only in the federal government, they were also in your department of motor vehicles.  They were teaching your kid in college.  They were on the local school board, in the PTA, on the zoning board, in the chamber of commerce, coaching little league, leading Boy Scout packs...you get the general idea.
Terrorism is not a direct parallel. However, they're making great McCarthyite progress with it.  The trouble with terrorists as you never know where they are, how great their number, or where they'll strike.  Thus, the neo-McCarthys have a lot of leeway to spread paranoia.

We sat on the boat last night, positioned to see 3 fireworks displays at the same time, and you know what?  No terrorist attack.  Go home to the morning paper and none reported.  I would think, with all the bangs and flashes, the 4th would have been a great opportunity.  Guess the bad guys missed one here.

Meanwhile, the real terrorists are still sitting in Wall Street offices and corporate board rooms.

Meanwhile, the real terrorists are still sitting in Wall Street offices and corporate board rooms.

Amen.

The Bush Administration is bringing back McCarthism in full-force.


I would love to know WHICH "McCarthism" people are talking about when they bring up the subject.

Are you talking about all of the innocent Actors that were kicked out of the business because they were accused of being Comunists?

I hate to tell you this, but Sen. Joe McCarthy had NOTHING to do with that.

That was all because of the "House Un-American Activities Hearings".  Notice, HOUSE.  Joe was in the SENATE.

McCarthy's issue was always about possible un-American activities by Government Employees.  These are people with the security clearances, and who have confidential information that could possibly be damaging to the nation.  McCarthy did NOT have anything to do with censorship, nor did he have anything to do with Hollywood.

What I find even more fascinating is that when the CIA released THOUSANDS of KGB cables that were interecepted at the time (under the Venona Operation), most of them PROVED McCarthy was correct.  But that does not matter, because people hear the name Otto Premminger and think "McCarthyism", never mind that McCarthy had NOTHING to do with it.

http://foia.fbi.gov/venona.htm

I would love to know WHICH "McCarthism" people are talking about when they bring up the subject.

Are you talking about all of the innocent Actors that were kicked out of the business because they were accused of being Comunists?

I hate to tell you this, but Sen. Joe McCarthy had NOTHING to do with that.

That was all because of the "House Un-American Activities Hearings".  Notice, HOUSE.  Joe was in the SENATE.

McCarthy's issue was always about possible un-American activities by Government Employees.  These are people with the security clearances, and who have confidential information that could possibly be damaging to the nation.  McCarthy did NOT have anything to do with censorship, nor did he have anything to do with Hollywood.

What I find even more fascinating is that when the CIA released THOUSANDS of KGB cables that were interecepted at the time (under the Venona Operation), most of them PROVED McCarthy was correct.  But that does not matter, because people hear the name Otto Premminger and think "McCarthyism", never mind that McCarthy had NOTHING to do with it.

http://foia.fbi.gov/venona.htm


Technically, you are correct. HUAC was responsible for the blacklists of actors, writers, singers (like Pete Seeger), not Joe McCarthy.  But his names has become associated with this manifestation of the "red scare". 

Your assertion the "McCarthy was correct" has not been established in any reliable historical study that I am familiar with.  Sources please.

All that aside, I have to ask why ideas, and those who hold them, are so dangerous that we  should be prevented from hearing them.  If there is no "class conflict" why is it that Wal-Mart fights tooth and nail to prevent workers from organizing, even though they are paid minimum wage, forced into unpaid overtime, have a sh**ty health care plan, etc.  Is it that radical ideas, having to do with exposing corporate abuse, exploitation and the like might stir up the quiesant masses?  Why does the FBI want to know what books I buy or borrow from the library?  I never met an idea that hurt anybody, unless it exposed their betrayal of the basic U.S. ideals of freedom and democracy by the kleptocrates.  They, of course, hate those ideas.  Let me point out the attempt to restrict the distribution of Faranhite 9/11.  Did anyone really think it wouldn't be shown? 

Your assertion the "McCarthy was correct" has not been established in any reliable historical study that I am familiar with.  Sources please.


I had the link at the bottom of the page, but here it is again:

http://foia.fbi.gov/venona.htm

Here is another:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hiss/hissvenona.html

Here is yet another from that extreme Right Wing PBS show, Nova:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2904_venona.html

And yet another:

http://www.zpub.com/notes/lamphere.html

Of course, a lot of these were cross-referenced with KGB files and validated without the code names.  And the code names for the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss have been verified as having been correct.

I had the link at the bottom of the page, but here it is again:

http://foia.fbi.gov/venona.htm

Here is another:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/hiss/hissvenona.html

Here is yet another from that extreme Right Wing PBS show, Nova:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2904_venona.html

And yet another:

http://www.zpub.com/notes/lamphere.html

Of course, a lot of these were cross-referenced with KGB files and validated without the code names.  And the code names for the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss have been verified as having been correct.


But this is old hat.  McCarthy claimed that the State Department and the Pentegon where infiltrated with "spies".  Of course there were Soviet spies here, just as we were spying on them.  We were, after all, allies (do I sound cynical?).  You might recall that we excluded our Soviet allies scientists from the Manhatan Project.  If you were Stalin (who IO DO NOT admire) wouldn't you wonder, especially knowing that the U.S. invaded his country in 1918-19 to overthrow his government?  McCarthy was broght down because he was a demigode, a fool, and incompetant.  Even Eisenhower (a good Republican) hated his guts.

The term used was wrong, but in many ways you are also correct.

Unlike when you rent a house or a motel room, nobody in homeless shelters asks for any form of ID.  The actual message was closer to saying to look out for people with no actual "home", but who migrate around.

But the half-truth of the homeless is true.  Look how many people wanted in LA have been found in them.  Heck, just last year one of the people featured on "America's Most Wanted" was found in a homeless shelter.  And the DC Snipers used homeless shelters to hide in, because they knew there were no questions asked.

So it is not a totally rediculous thing to say.  Shelters are excellent places for criminals and other unsavory characters to hide up in.
:o :oYou don't thinkj of that--it woiuld be easy to hide in one.

I had the link at the bottom of the page, but here it is again:

http://foia.fbi.gov/venona.htm
Of course, a lot of these were cross-referenced with KGB files and validated without the code names.  And the code names for the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss have been verified as having been correct.

Yup, them commies was everywhere, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.  Except old Joe couldn't seem to shoot himself no fish!
;D

Yup, them commies was everywhere, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.  Except old Joe couldn't seem to shoot himself no fish!
;D


Actually, Mr. Hiss was one of his main targets.  He tried for years to get him, but was unsuccessful.  Because of the security around Venona however, the absolute proof could never be used.

However, he was successful in getting the State Department to tighten it's security, and that helped.  In fact, I remember just the year before Venona was made public, seeing a show about how wrong he was.  I wonder how the producers of that show felt when CIA declassified the intercepts they had for 40 years.

Actually, Mr. Hiss was one of his main targets.  He tried for years to get him, but was unsuccessful.  Because of the security around Venona however, the absolute proof could never be used.

However, he was successful in getting the State Department to tighten it's security, and that helped.  In fact, I remember just the year before Venona was made public, seeing a show about how wrong he was.  I wonder how the producers of that show felt when CIA declassified the intercepts they had for 40 years.


We need to step back here for a bit, and look at this from a historical perspective.

First some facts.  Were there members of the Communist Party USA in government?  Very probably yes.

Where their Soviey agents in the U.S.?  undoubtedly yes.

Were the two connected?  Some evidence suggests they may have been, other evidence suggests not.  Probably some were.  Who?  Those at the higher levels of Gov't service, it seems, were not spies for the Soviets, based on all that I have read on this issue, and Sen McCarthy made it up as he went along (like the character in Frank Sinatra's best movie The Manchurian Candidate).

The historical context, of course, is that during WWII we were allies with the Soviets.  In one year TIME Magazine declared Joe Stalin "Man of the Year".  The CPUSA was at its height, and fully supported the war against the axis (after opposing it originally).  The depression still ravaged especially poor people and minorities.  Lots of people jumped on the leftist band wagon.  It was also the time of the Wagner Act, and the Social Security Act, and the TVA etc.  Government seemed to be comming back to the interests of the people after the age of the robber barons and "paternalistic capitalism".

So yes.  Lots of patriotic U.S.ians looked to the left.  That didn't make Pete Seeger a Soviet spy, or the Almanac Singers a subversive organization.

Where their Soviey agents in the U.S.?  undoubtedly yes.


I am cutting this short for brevity.

I see clear difference between "Socialism" and "Communism".  I think Socialism has a lot of good things, and when taken in moderation with Free Market, can help ballance the playing field when needed.

I think Communism is a pipe dream, that is a nice idea, but unworkable because of basic human nature.  Greed, sloth, lazyness, and other human emotions will step in every time, making true communism unworkable.  This is how you had Stallin living like a Tsar, while millions of people in the USSR starved.

The problem at that time, is that the USSR advocated the overturning of the Governments of other nations by any means nessicary.  And while Roosevelt was a big fan of Socialst programs, he was by no means a Communist.  After all, he owed a lot of his families fortune to Capitolism.  And a lot of his friends were also very VERY rich.

The problem is that the USSR tried for global domination, by any means nessicary.  From killing a expatriot in Mexico to putting "unwanted people" in forced labor camps, I think it was an evil nation.  And even though it called itself "Communist", I do not think it was.  As many call it now, I view it as a "Marxist Dictatorship", which only cloked the IDEA of communism around itself.

And that form of "Communism" is not dead yet.  Look at China.  Cuba still claims to be Communist.  But with one person in charge since before I was born, that is harder to believe each year.  And now we have religious groups (most notably "Fundamentalist Muslim") trying to tke the place of "Communism" in the last century.  But it is just more of the same, people wanting to enforce their will on others, just hiding behind a cloak.  Whenever somebody else tells me they know what I need more then I do, I start to cover my backside.

I am cutting this short for brevity.

I see clear difference between "Socialism" and "Communism".  I think Socialism has a lot of good things, and when taken in moderation with Free Market, can help ballance the playing field when needed.

I think Communism is a pipe dream, that is a nice idea, but unworkable because of basic human nature.  Greed, sloth, lazyness, and other human emotions will step in every time, making true communism unworkable.  This is how you had Stallin living like a Tsar, while millions of people in the USSR starved.

The problem at that time, is that the USSR advocated the overturning of the Governments of other nations by any means nessicary.  And while Roosevelt was a big fan of Socialst programs, he was by no means a Communist.  After all, he owed a lot of his families fortune to Capitolism.  And a lot of his friends were also very VERY rich.

The problem is that the USSR tried for global domination, by any means nessicary.  From killing a expatriot in Mexico to putting "unwanted people" in forced labor camps, I think it was an evil nation.  And even though it called itself "Communist", I do not think it was.  As many call it now, I view it as a "Marxist Dictatorship", which only cloked the IDEA of communism around itself.

And that form of "Communism" is not dead yet.  Look at China.  Cuba still claims to be Communist.  But with one person in charge since before I was born, that is harder to believe each year.  And now we have religious groups (most notably "Fundamentalist Muslim") trying to tke the place of "Communism" in the last century.  But it is just more of the same, people wanting to enforce their will on others, just hiding behind a cloak.  Whenever somebody else tells me they know what I need more then I do, I start to cover my backside.


Mushroom, there is a good deal of validity in what you say, but also, I think, a good deal of confusion.

First, you refer to "basic human nature".  I'm not sure what that is, and I don't think you know either - no affront intended - because it is sooo slippery.  We are sometimes generous to a fault and sometimes tighter than a drum.  Sometimes more violent than the wildest beast, but at others gentler than the gentlest lamb.  So, I have to conclude that "human nature" is a product of the socio-political experiance the individual confronts, not some innate set of instincts and impulses.  In fact, I woiuld argue that it is that flexibility that is  one of the things that makes us HUMAN.

You are correct in aserting that Joe Stalin was, in a word nuts - a murderous megelomaniac who did "off" Totskie in Mexico, purged his own military, slaughtered maybe million.  He is no hero of mine.

I can't comment on China.  I've read bad things anbd good - I must say the bad accounts outweight the good and they are very convincing. 

Cuba is a different matter, but right now, I'm not ready to go into a long analysis of its pluses and minuses.  I'll just say that, yes, Fidel has been in power for a long time.  I will also add that he still drives around the country in a canvas topped jeep and frequently stops along the way just to chat with people who wave at him.  I have seen films, by the way, of some of those peole berating him, apparantly without fear.

Last, let me comment on "Marxism".  Many have claimed the title "Marxist" (Karl, by the way said he wasn't one), and although I have read a good deal of his writings, I don't claim that title.  I just don't know enough.  What I have gleened from his writings is that he was completely and absolutely dedicated the the liberation of the human spirit.  Some will object, since he discussed "the dictatorship of the proletariat) but that was in a 19th century context.  His goal, though, if you read him, was to understand the nature of capitalism.  That's why his most important work was titled Das Kapital.  It drips with sarcasm, and cuts to the of how capitalism works.  The latest innovations are all anticipated in his writings.  The fact that he was claimed, and perverted by the likes of Stalin and Mao is unfortunate, but certainly not his fault.  How many other leaders try to associate themselves with the dead?

look out for pregnant women with beards.)
I see them at the public library all the time :P

Cuba is a different matter, but right now, I'm not ready to go into a long analysis of its pluses and minuses.  I'll just say that, yes, Fidel has been in power for a long time.  I will also add that he still drives around the country in a canvas topped jeep and frequently stops along the way just to chat with people who wave at him.  I have seen films, by the way, of some of those peole berating him, apparantly without fear.


Castro's no saint, but he didn't start out as a pawn of Soviet Communism.  Castro wanted Cuba for the Cubans, not Cuba for the U.S. corporations and the mafia.  The sugar bosses and the mafia dons said, essentially, "No way, Jose!"
There is Fidel and his regime sitting ninety miles from the world's most powerful nation about to squash him like a bug.  What do you do when the big bully on the block is after you?  Seek protection from the other big bully on the block.  That's what Castro did.  The result was the closest call we've ever had to thermo-nuclear war, the Cuban Missile Crisis of October, 1962.  Everyone from the rich elites of the Batista regime, to Sam Giancana, to JFK wanted to kill Castro.  Castro survived.  The Cuban bourgeois, who thought they were going to Florida for a few months, to return when the upstart was killed, are still in Florida.
Cubans are bad off compared to most Americans, and most western Democracies.  However, Cubans have it a h*ll of a lot better than most other Caribbean natives (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Puerto Rico) and the oppressed masses in Latin American countries.  The Cuban economy has been systematically undermined by our blockade, but Fidel just hangs in there.
Justice is lacking in Cuba, many people rotting in Cuban prisons without proper trials, but compared to the sacking of elected governments in places like Chile and Nicaragua by American business interests, the terror in Cuba is quite mild indeed.

Castro's no saint, but he didn't start out as a pawn of Soviet Communism.  Castro wanted Cuba for the Cubans, not Cuba for the U.S. corporations and the mafia.  The sugar bosses and the mafia dons said, essentially, "No way, Jose!"
There is Fidel and his regime sitting ninety miles from the world's most powerful nation about to squash him like a bug.  What do you do when the big bully on the block is after you?  Seek protection from the other big bully on the block.  That's what Castro did.  The result was the closest call we've ever had to thermo-nuclear war, the Cuban Missile Crisis of October, 1962.  Everyone from the rich elites of the Batista regime, to Sam Giancana, to JFK wanted to kill Castro.  Castro survived.  The Cuban bourgeois, who thought they were going to Florida for a few months, to return when the upstart was killed, are still in Florida.
Cubans are bad off compared to most Americans, and most western Democracies.  However, Cubans have it a h*ll of a lot better than most other Caribbean natives (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Puerto Rico) and the oppressed masses in Latin American countries.  The Cuban economy has been systematically undermined by our blockade, but Fidel just hangs in there.
Justice is lacking in Cuba, many people rotting in Cuban prisons without proper trials, but compared to the sacking of elected governments in places like Chile and Nicaragua by American business interests, the terror in Cuba is quite mild indeed.


My books are in my office, so I can't quote the stats, but votes on Cuba's human right records at the UN Human Rights Commission have been increasingly supportive of Cuba's record.  Do abuses occure?  Sure, as they do here, in the good old US of A.  And if we include issues like health care of economic justice within the ruberic of human rights, Cuba would be a shining example.  One of the lowerst infant mortality rates in the world, for starters.  A sign on the way to Jose Marti airport says something like "millions of children go to sleep without a roof over their heads - NONE are Cuban".

I guess if we have to live under one or another form of dictatorship I would prefer one that provided me with a free education as far as I could go, free health care, an adequate diet, free recreation and public transportation etc. instead of one that sacrificed my well being to the interests of a few big doner fat cats in corporate board rooms.

And while Fidel has remained in power for too long, Cuba's political system, starting with neighborhood councils and culminating in the national legislature, is arguably more democratic than the systems in any other nation. 

:o :oYou don't thinkj of that--it woiuld be easy to hide in one.


This thread was brought back to mind, because of something I found on the "America's Most Wanted" website today.

It seems that they caught a double murderer in North Carolina last month.

After traceing his murdered wife's car to North Carolina, they got a tip that he had been living in a local homeless shelter.

THey had transfered him to another Homeless shelter, and they were able to lead him directly to his new place of employment.  Luckily for the FBI, this dumb criminal actually used his own name and birth date at each of the shelters!

Here is a link to the article on the AMW website:

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/capture.cfm?id=26851

This thread was brought back to mind, because of something I found on the "America's Most Wanted" website today.

It seems that they caught a double murderer in North Carolina last month.

After traceing his murdered wife's car to North Carolina, they got a tip that he had been living in a local homeless shelter.

THey had transfered him to another Homeless shelter, and they were able to lead him directly to his new place of employment.  Luckily for the FBI, this dumb criminal actually used his own name and birth date at each of the shelters!

Here is a link to the article on the AMW website:

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/capture.cfm?id=26851

Well, that settles it then.  We must photo, fingerprint, and DNA profile every person who seeks lodging in a homeless shelter.  That way, we can triple the cost of running shelters, and fugitives will avoid them altogether and sneak cover in less conspicuous places---like the boiler room of YOUR apartment building...Muua-ha-ha-ha!!!

Well, that settles it then.  We must photo, fingerprint, and DNA profile every person who seeks lodging in a homeless shelter.  That way, we can triple the cost of running shelters, and fugitives will avoid them altogether and sneak cover in less conspicuous places---like the boiler room of YOUR apartment building...Muua-ha-ha-ha!!!


Ha ha!  ;D

.

And while Fidel has remained in power for too long, Cuba's political system, starting with neighborhood councils and culminating in the national legislature, is arguably more democratic than the systems in any other nation. 

I don't romanticize Castro, or pretend tha Cuba is a workers paradise.  There are MANY problems with Cuba.  However, compared to living conditions in the rest the Caribbean and Latin America, Cuba is not so bad.
Americans go NUTS when you point this stuff out!

I took one of those bus tours in New York and they pointed out the hotel that Fidel Castro stayed in
when he visited the United States after coming into power.  It was pointed out that it wasn't until Bill
Clinton that a nationally recognized figure spent any time in Harlem(outside of its own representatives).
I looked around and thought that for a lot of people in Harlem, Havana might be a nice change.

:\'( I'm scared
They said that terrorists might be planning to invade britain. I live in britain and I don't want any of my family or me to die.  :\'( This isn't really making my upcoming holiday real exciting.

:\'( I'm scared
They said that terrorists might be planning to invade britain. I live in britain and I don't want any of my family or me to die.  :\'( This isn't really making my upcoming holiday real exciting.


Don't be afraid, I'm sure everything will be alright with your holiday.  The terrorists really aren't
concerned with your area and I'm sure your parents would not take you anywhere where you
would come into harms way. 

:\'( I'm scared
They said that terrorists might be planning to invade britain. I live in britain and I don't want any of my family or me to die.  :\'( This isn't really making my upcoming holiday real exciting.

I would say Britain is better prepared to protect itself against terrorist acts.  You've been struggle with the IRA for decades. 

Until the 1990s, terrorism was something other countries had to deal with.  Americans occasionally were victimized traveling abroad, but that was about it.

In 1993 there was the first attack on the World Trade Center, and in 1995 there was the bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.  It wasn't until 9/11, however, that Americans got obsessed with terrorism.

Well, that settles it then.  We must photo, fingerprint, and DNA profile every person who seeks lodging in a homeless shelter.  That way, we can triple the cost of running shelters, and fugitives will avoid them altogether and sneak cover in less conspicuous places---like the boiler room of YOUR apartment building...Muua-ha-ha-ha!!!


Well, as somebody who has lived in shelters, I would not have a problem with that.

You would be amazed at what goes on in those shelters.  I lost count of the mumber of drug deals that goes on in there.  We had a group (2 brothers, the wife of one of the brothers, and one other guy) who were professional shoplifters.  They would take "orders" from the other people in the shelter, then during the day take what they could (often batteries, cigarettes, candy, and portable electronics like walkmans, CD players, and mini televisions). 

I'm just curious how many people on this site lost a loved one on September 11th?  There is an enemy, and it ain't an imagined boogey-man...Oh I suppose that the next thing said, is that President Bush and company, hired these thugs to make themselves look good?....hmmmm...paranoid you say?...brainwashed???  Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black...
There will NEVER be world peace....ya know why?  Charity begins at home...and really, we can't even love the people under our own  roofs...we commit to no one but #1...we throw away our spouses, and our children as well...then of course it is sooo progressive and chic to hate ones own country...and fancy that the Sadam's of the world are abused by the real boogey man...the United States...oh brother.

I'm just curious how many people on this site lost a loved one on September 11th?  There is an enemy, and it ain't an imagined boogey-man...Oh I suppose that the next thing said, is that President Bush and company, hired these thugs to make themselves look good?....hmmmm...paranoid you say?...brainwashed???  Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black...
There will NEVER be world peace....ya know why?  Charity begins at home...and really, we can't even love the people under our own  roofs...we commit to no one but #1...we throw away our spouses, and our children as well...then of course it is sooo progressive and chic to hate ones own country...and fancy that the Sadam's of the world are abused by the real boogey man...the United States...oh brother.



What is this all about? ???

Well, as somebody who has lived in shelters, I would not have a problem with that.

You would be amazed at what goes on in those shelters.  I lost count of the mumber of drug deals that goes on in there.  We had a group (2 brothers, the wife of one of the brothers, and one other guy) who were professional shoplifters.  They would take "orders" from the other people in the shelter, then during the day take what they could (often batteries, cigarettes, candy, and portable electronics like walkmans, CD players, and mini televisions). 

Where you have mass poverty in the midst of opulence have professional thieves.  That's just the way it goes, always has been.  Poverty doesn't make theft right, merely inevitable.
The human condition doesn't ennoble itself amidst desperation.  One of the reasons homeless people avoid shelters is because they don't want to be stripped of their dignity by welfare workers, and stripped of their possessions by thieves.
The homeless and impoverished believe themselve to be mistreated by society, and you know what?  They're right.  It's high time to say they're right.  We've been swallowing the Rush Limbaugh social darwinist Kool-Aid for too long!  Daddy Bush said homeless people prefer living day-to-day, hand-to-mouth.  Ed Meese said the poor go to soup kitchens because they're too lazy to cook at home.  Lewis Black said: "I didn't understand why they cut off Marie Antoinette's head....now I get it!!!
Amen.

No, I didn't lose a loved one on 9/11, but it's interesting how the government and corporations bought the silence of many who did.  In order to get benefits from the 9/11 compensation fund, you had to forfeit your right to sue the government or the airlines.  Thousands signed away their rights because they had to have the money, but here is Ellen Mariani, 65 years old from Derry, NH, she's held out.  Again, I post her link.

http://www.911forthetruth.com/

The radical Islamist terrorists would kill me as soon as they'd kill you, but I don't take it personally.  I use political science to analyse how terrorism against America came to be.  It's not "blame America first."  Nor is it, "we're good, they're evil," nor is it "they're jealous of our freedom."  There's a lot more going on than that.  The looming threat of another attack by foreign terrorists DOES NOT frighten me as much as an incompetent government who has behaved invidiously toward the rest of the world.  I am less disturbed by "Islamo-fascists" who don't respect my rights.  I have no reason to expct them to.  I do have a reason to expect my government to respect my rights, and my government does not!

Where you have mass poverty in the midst of opulence have professional thieves.  That's just the way it goes, always has been.  Poverty doesn't make theft right, merely inevitable.
The human condition doesn't ennoble itself amidst desperation.  One of the reasons homeless people avoid shelters is because they don't want to be stripped of their dignity by welfare workers, and stripped of their possessions by thieves.


How about the simple fact that a lot of the people who are poor are also scum?

I am probably one of the vast minority of the homeless, who honestly tried to work out of the situation, and succedded.  Having worked my way out of that situation 2 times, I find it hard to believe that they can't do it.

And as for "stripped of their dignity by welfare workers", here is a little FYI:  Homeless Shelters are NOT run by welfare workers.

Since you have probably never had to stay in one, here is a little information on how one works.  This describes the check-in process for the Long Beach California shelter in the winter of 2001-2002.  This was the last time I needed to stay there:

1) Pick-up, 6:00pm:  Since the shelter is in an industrial district, you can't wait outside of it.  A bus goes to 2 different pick-up points in Long Beach, and takes you the 15 miles to Wilmington where the shelter actually is.

2)  Check-in, 6:30pm:    For first-timers, there is a simple form to fill out.  It asks for name, birthdate, and next of kin.  No ID is required.  At the bottom is a list of rules and you sign the form.  They then give you a paper "ID Card" that lets you stay at the shelter.  Returning "guests" sign a logbook.  This is simply to keep count of how many people are there, so they do not overfill the shelter.  There is a cursory "wanding" to check for weapons.  Any weapons or alcohol found are confiscated.  If drugs or firearms are found, the police are notified.

3)  Picking a bunk:  Once you are checked in, you get your bedding and pick an army-style cot.  The room is about the size of a High School Gym.  About 200 cots are crammed into it for the men, and another 40 are in a seperate area for the women.  Most of the next 90 minutes are spent socializing.

4)  Dinner, 8pm:  People are now served dinner, normally donated by local churches.  Spagetti is normal, with bread donated by a local bakery.

5)  Evening:  From 8pm till 10pm, there is a TV and VCR, and a "game are" with chess games for anybody to use.  Once lights out is announced, everybody goes to their bunks.  Women at this time must go upstairs to their own area.

6)  Wake-up, 6am:  At 6am, everybody gets up.  Linnen is turned in, and people line up for breakfast.

7)  Breakfast, 7am:  Breakfast is served.  Normally oatmeal, sausage or bacon, and either french toast or pancakes.  Once again, this is normally donated by local churches.

8)  Turn-out, 8am:  At 8am, everybody is bussed back to Long Beach.

Nowhere in this process is any welfare agency involved.  These are largely used by people who do NOT want to be tracked by these agencies.  A lot of them are parolees, mentally ill, and drug/alcohol adicts.  These people so not want help, they want free food and a bed.

Along one wall, there was an area set-aside for "laborers".  This was for people who worked during the day, and was a guarantee that they would have a bed as long as they came in by 8pm.  Most of my time there I was in this group.  Unlike everybody else, out bed was the same every night, and we could leave our bedding in place.  Out of over 250 people in this shelter, there were only 15 such beds at any one time in use.

In other words, during the 3 months I was in the shelter, an average of 15 out of 250 people actually had jobs.  During the next 2 years I returned to the area many times, and often saw the same people hanging out in the park and on downtown streets.  These people did not want help, they did not want to improve their lives.  They simply wanted a handout.  The people like me worked our way out of the shelter and did not return.

How about the simple fact that a lot of the people who are poor are also scum?

I think you'll find similar proportions of scumbags in all walks of life - it's just that the more money they've got, the less likely they are to be called as such. The rich variety steal "legally" (or nearly so)

Interesting story of your experience with a shelter.  No, I have never been to a shelter, but I have been unemployed and unemployable for long stretches.  When you say people don't want to work and don't want to improve their lives, you may be right in some cases.  Even in those cases where a person says outright he or she wants to be on the bum, you would not inculcate them with a sense of responsibility by revoking their "hand-out."  Such an attitude comes from social pathology brought about by a lifetime of failures, abuse, and ill-fortune.  Indeed, personal responsibility is a virtue these people need to learn, but you cannot teach it to them by shame, condemnation, and finger-wagging about "personal responsibility."

I personally know what it's like to want to hold down a job, but not be able to.  I was always capable, but my psychiatric disposition made me unacceptable in the workplace.  When you are afflicted with the severity of depression and anxiety I was, you cannot concentrate well, you cannot work at the pace an employer requires, and furthermore, unless your employer understands the disease of Depression, he'll conclude he just doesn't like you, your habits, and your attitude.  You'll be fired within a month.  That's what always happened to me, and what I'll bet happened to many of your chronic shelter dwellers.

Mushroom, with your belief system, you could live among those people for years and still fail to understand them.  The way you tell your story, I hear a person who is saying he was down and out, but always better than those he met when he was down and out, it's a pride thing.

BTW, depending you location and circumstance, some shelters are run with state money, some with private money.

Cheer wrote
And, these were the first of 6 (offered M, W, F for 2 weeks) total, and they have GUARANTEED employment for the ones who finish as well as housing assistance. (salary ranges 12-16/hour based on final testing)  It'll be interesting to see how many actually finish
Sounds like a sweet deal.  It also sounds like it's far from the full story.

I worked at a job in very close proximity to homeless people and it was accepted by me and all the people that I worked with(all shades of the political spectrum) that the majority of the people we saw had psychological problems.  It wasn't lazy, it was "not competent", and it was sad.  Occasionally there would be some wiseguys, usually boy of high school age, who would try to bother someone, and were shocked to see themselves accosted by a couple of pissed off hard hats, if they referred to them as bums they got an earful. If you have any kind of social network you will find someone who has a person near to them who is for whatever reason, living on the streets.  Some people will excuse the person they know buy saying that their circumstance "is different".  Different it may be, but sad nonetheless.

I'm sure there are people who will doubt your "being in the minority" though as we ALL KNOW that MOST of the homeless DO want to work, they have just been screwed by corporate america.

Actually, several of them DID have stories like that.

One insisted he was being stalked by the Post Office.  He insisted that Mailboxes were all survailence devices.  He would often dump garbage into them, saying that that would "mess up the electronics" inside.  He was unable to work because the Post Office would "find him and get him".

There is another one which was equally sad.  This kid (he was 25 or so) would always show up wearing a 3 piece suit.  He claimed he had a college degree, but because he was black, nobody would hire him.  I never saw this guy trying to get work though.  His scam however was to hang out at gas stations with a gas can, claiming to be out of gas several blocks away.  He found many suckers who thought that this nice clean looking kid in a suit could not possably be a "bum".

The big 3 problems with the homeless tends to be drugs, alcohol, or mental instability.  And quite often, 2 or all 3 at the same time.  During my time with US Vets (http://www.usvetsinc.org) the biggest problem was dealing with attitudes and denial. 

The big 3 problems with the homeless tends to be drugs, alcohol, or mental instability.  And quite often, 2 or all 3 at the same time.  During my time with US Vets (http://www.usvetsinc.org) the biggest problem was dealing with attitudes and denial. 

The old cliche goes, "crazy people don't know they're crazy."  There's some truth to it.  What you see on the surface as a bad attitude often has a complex root system of dysfunctional thinking.
And denial is indeed one of the greatest obstacles in fighting alcohol and drug addictions.

The old cliche goes, "crazy people don't know they're crazy."  There's some truth to it.  What you see on the surface as a bad attitude often has a complex root system of dysfunctional thinking.
And denial is indeed one of the greatest obstacles in fighting alcohol and drug addictions.


In probably 85%+ of the people I saw, the mental problems were either caused or worsened because of drugs and or alcohol.  A conservative guess would be that 75% of the people there had problems with one or the other.

By far, the worse ones were the drug addicts.  Crack, Meth, and grass were the drugs of choice of most of them.  The crackheads and Meth users tended to be the most violent, not careing how they got the money for their fix.  The grass uses tended to be the most paranoid and crazy however.  The guy who thought the Postal Service was out to get him was a chronic marijuana user.

The drunks were largely lethargic, unless they were the "violent drunk" types.  Most just went to the local "99 Cent Only" store and got whatever wine they had for sale.  Either that or they would beg enough on the street to buy 1 or 2 6-packs and drink them before the bus picked them up in the evening.

Of course, most of them were in denial.  "I am not homeless, I live in the shelter" was a common denial.  And many had "reasons" why they did not work.  Criminal records, owed child support, wage garnishment, and "inability to deal with stress" were some of the most common ones I heard.  Never mind that most were either to crazy, or to hooked on drugs/alcohol to hold any kind of a job down.