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This is a topic from the Current Politics and Religious Topics forum on inthe00s.
Subject: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 06/28/04 at 6:57 pm
Since this forum is supposed to include religious topics, let's give this one a try.
The Love of God
Some questions to consider:
Does God love everyone?
The God of the Old Testament seems vengeful and angry. Is this the same God as in the New Testament?
If God is love, why do people go to hell?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 06/28/04 at 7:33 pm
But if he loves everybody, why would he let someone he loves go to hell? (Or do you believe there is no hell?)
Think of the way you would love your own child. If you dislike something they do wrong, but you still love them, what do you do? You might punish them, but you don't cast them out from your presence for eternity. You might use temporary punishments to try and correct their behavior, but the goal is correction. What is the goal of hell, if it's permanent?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: CatwomanofV on 06/28/04 at 7:49 pm
As many of you know, I am not a Christian. I am a Wicca, Pagan, Goddess worshipper, witch, whatever you perfer. My religion has one creed, "Do what you will, harm none". My religion does not have Hell nor the devil. Yes, there are evil forces and I see those evil forces everyday in the paper, on t.v. etc. I'm talking murder, injustice, intolernces, etc. Anything that pits people against each other. It is up to us (humans) to counteract those evil forces. My religion has the three-fold rule. Whatever you do to/for someone will come back to you three-fold. You do something good, you will get that good three times greater than you gave it. If you do something bad, well, the same thing. I try very hard to live by that creed. But, I am human and I do make mistakes. I have said some hurtful things to people and of course, I felt bad about it. I also feel that LOVE is a big part of who I am and my religion.
I think that the Creator-whether it be God, The Goddess, Allah, Jehovah, Mother Nature, Uranus/Gaea, Atum, Krsna, or whoever, is LOVE. It is humans who create evil.
Cat
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 06/28/04 at 8:00 pm
God loves all people...we are all his children. I do believe in Hell and that people will go there. I don't even try to understand why God allows this. I figure it will be something that we will know in the end.
The Old and New Testament God is the same God. He is not as vengeful in the NT because Jesus paid the price for our sins. In the OT the price had not yet been paid. God cannot abide sin so Christ is the go between, so to say.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 06/28/04 at 9:50 pm
The Old and New Testament God is the same God. He is not as vengeful in the NT because Jesus paid the price for our sins. In the OT the price had not yet been paid. God cannot abide sin so Christ is the go between, so to say.
But did God not know that Jesus would later pay the price for sin?
Could anyone who died before Christ (like Adam and Eve) be saved? How?
"God cannot abide sin" - but Christ didn't get rid of all sin, did he? Aren't there still people who are unsaved and therefore do not have Christ as their go-between? So if we are talking about the same God as the OT, he should deal with those people the same way as he did in the OT, right? (With justice, not love?)
Do you see examples of God's love in the OT? Where?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 06/29/04 at 4:32 am
But did God not know that Jesus would later pay the price for sin?
Could anyone who died before Christ (like Adam and Eve) be saved? How?
"God cannot abide sin" - but Christ didn't get rid of all sin, did he? Aren't there still people who are unsaved and therefore do not have Christ as their go-between? So if we are talking about the same God as the OT, he should deal with those people the same way as he did in the OT, right? (With justice, not love?)
Do you see examples of God's love in the OT? Where?
You little interrogator, you. ;D
Absolutely right, the Old Testament was based on the Mosaic Law. I think someone religious told me that once Jesus died for us, the Mosaic Law was lifted and, despite these laws (10 commandments) being common sense, we follow Jesus Christ's example which encompasses them anyway.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Powerslave on 06/29/04 at 5:29 am
And I reiterate the point I made in the "Christlike" thread, which is, if God loves us all, why does He punish sinners (if he in fact hates the sin, not the sinner) be condemning them to the Lake of Fire for eternity? Or does really He not actually do this, just allow it to be told in Scripture to scare the crap out of us? And if that's the case, and He loves us no matter what, then it doesn't really matter what we do, does it?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 06/29/04 at 7:19 am
But did God not know that Jesus would later pay the price for sin?
Could anyone who died before Christ (like Adam and Eve) be saved? How?
"God cannot abide sin" - but Christ didn't get rid of all sin, did he? Aren't there still people who are unsaved and therefore do not have Christ as their go-between? So if we are talking about the same God as the OT, he should deal with those people the same way as he did in the OT, right? (With justice, not love?)
Do you see examples of God's love in the OT? Where?
Those in the old testament were saved when Jesus died. Up until then they were in a place called Abraham's Bosom. I have to go to work now, but will look up the verses when I get home.
Examples of God's love? Garden of Eden, bringing the Jews out of Egypt...
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: onaree on 06/29/04 at 7:51 am
Ok, here's my take on this whole topic. First, I'd like to start off by saying, I am a Christian and therefore, I do believe that Christ died for EVERYONE. I believe that God does love everyone or He wouldn't have allowed Christ to die for all.
Having said that, God leaves the choice of salvation up to us. If we choose to ignore God and the love He has for us and continue on in sin, yes, we will go to Hell. This brings the question, what is sin? Sin is knowing something is wrong and chosing to do it anyway. There is a point when one reaches the age of accountability. This is when we know true right from wrong.
Anyway, God doesn't send people to hell for the sake of sending them to hell. I believe that it saddens Him when He sees one of His children more or less, turning their back on Him. Afterall, He sent His best to die for our worst. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that, whosoever everyone] believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Harmonica on 06/29/04 at 8:21 am
It's the antagonizing question that makes people wonder all the time. Why do good things happen to bad people? and Why do bad things happen to good people?
I believe in God. It's Heaven and Hell I'm not so sure about.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: SI-MAE on 06/29/04 at 2:28 pm
What is the goal of hell, if it's permanent?
I salute you. I have always thought this. Why would Hell be permanent? Sure, if you're going to punish sin, punish it. But do it more in the way of The Divine Comedy's Purgatory: Punish for a fixed amount of time, then end it. I'm not saying God has to let them into Paradise afterwards, perhaps some intermediate state or a lesser form of in his prescence. Just my thoughts.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 06/29/04 at 6:32 pm
Ok, here's my take on this whole topic. First, I'd like to start off by saying, I am a Christian and therefore, I do believe that Christ died for EVERYONE. I believe that God does love everyone or He wouldn't have allowed Christ to die for all.
Having said that, God leaves the choice of salvation up to us. If we choose to ignore God and the love He has for us and continue on in sin, yes, we will go to Hell. This brings the question, what is sin? Sin is knowing something is wrong and chosing to do it anyway. There is a point when one reaches the age of accountability. This is when we know true right from wrong.
Anyway, God doesn't send people to hell for the sake of sending them to hell. I believe that it saddens Him when He sees one of His children more or less, turning their back on Him. Afterall, He sent His best to die for our worst. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that, whosoever everyone] believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
Well said, Onaree.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 06/29/04 at 6:38 pm
When I hear Hell mentioned it is usually described as 'fiery torment that lasts for eternity'. If a God based on love and true justice sees a sinner, why not just end his life rather than have the person tortured forever? Is that really showing love and true justice?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: CatwomanofV on 06/29/04 at 6:46 pm
And I reiterate the point I made in the "Christlike" thread, which is, if God loves us all, why does He punish sinners (if he in fact hates the sin, not the sinner) be condemning them to the Lake of Fire for eternity? Or does really He not actually do this, just allow it to be told in Scripture to scare the crap out of us? And if that's the case, and He loves us no matter what, then it doesn't really matter what we do, does it?
CAT CAN'T LOG OFF - THIS IS DON CARLOS
Are you suggesting that God is a hypicrite or a trickster? Just asking.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: CatwomanofV on 06/29/04 at 6:56 pm
No, not Cat, DC again.
I once saw a sign that asked "have you seen God?" "Yes" was the reply "and is she pissed!" And I would add "especially at those fundamentatists who are more concerned with advanconcing a conservative political agenda than realizing the message of Christ, which if I'm not mistaken, had to do with love and compassion, especially for the poor, the disabled, and the otherwise downtroddon. I don't claim to be a Christian, but I think that in many ways I am much truer to the teachings of Christ than lots of people who claim to be followers of Christ. If the shoe fits...
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 06/29/04 at 9:50 pm
the message of Christ, which if I'm not mistaken, had to do with love and compassion, especially for the poor, the disabled, and the otherwise downtroddon.
That was part of Christ's message:
Matthew 25
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
...but was that all of his message?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: onaree on 06/30/04 at 7:08 am
When I hear Hell mentioned it is usually described as 'fiery torment that lasts for eternity'. If a God based on love and true justice sees a sinner, why not just end his life rather than have the person tortured forever? Is that really showing love and true justice?
God leaves the choice to change up to the person. His goal is to have everyone saved from Hell, not to send us there intentionally. It is a choice we have to make whether to accept His love and live forever or reject His love and live in torment.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Powerslave on 06/30/04 at 10:46 am
CAT CAN'T LOG OFF - THIS IS DON CARLOS
Are you suggesting that God is a hypicrite or a trickster? Just asking.
I'm not suggesting that God is a hypocrite. If He is infalliable, He can't be. But those who preach and translate His Scripture of His behalf could well be. :) We're told the Bible is the Word of God, but God Himself didn't write the Bible. It was written for Him by others.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 06/30/04 at 6:39 pm
I'm not suggesting that God is a hypocrite. If He is infalliable, He can't be. But those who preach and translate His Scripture of His behalf could well be. :) We're told the Bible is the Word of God, but God Himself didn't write the Bible. It was written for Him by others.
It was written through man, but inspired by God.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: QueenAmenRa on 07/01/04 at 12:46 pm
But did God not know that Jesus would later pay the price for sin?
Could anyone who died before Christ (like Adam and Eve) be saved? How?
"God cannot abide sin" - but Christ didn't get rid of all sin, did he? Aren't there still people who are unsaved and therefore do not have Christ as their go-between? So if we are talking about the same God as the OT, he should deal with those people the same way as he did in the OT, right? (With justice, not love?)
Do you see examples of God's love in the OT? Where?
People in the Old Testament times were supposed to sacrifice the cleanest lamb to God.
As far as God's love as in loving a child...well only those who are saved are the children of God. But if you don't come to Christ, well sorry. It's eternal torment in Hell.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: onaree on 07/01/04 at 12:50 pm
In Revelation, it talks about Saints that are under the throne of God. I have come to believe, through a little study, that these saints are the Old Testament saints.
A good series of books to read on this subject is The Left Behind series. I know that most of it is fiction, but the majority is based on scripture, even quoting scripture quite a bit.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 07/01/04 at 2:02 pm
There is nothing in the Bible that indicates they wouldn't.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: ladybug316 on 07/01/04 at 3:00 pm
So, if you die before you "come to Christ", you are darned to Hell? If a child is born with a deadly disease and dies before they can even comprehend the idea of God, they are darned to Hell?ÂÂ
This is my biggest complaint with the bible. The Catholic church would teach you that all dead babies that weren't baptized were sent to purgatory or limbo. What a blatant scare tactic (IMHO) to control people and ensure the next generation of believers. It's either God or Satan, heaven or hell, good or evil. For such a complex universe (That was supposedly created by this God of the bible) there are absolutely no grey areas where the bible is concerned.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: pennsygirl on 07/01/04 at 3:26 pm
The Catholic church would teach you that all dead babies that weren't baptized were sent to purgatory or limbo.
You know, my mom told me when I was a child that if a baby dies before it is baptized, it goes to 'limbo'. I was taught the same thing in Catholic school. Why would an innocent child not be brought back to God? It doesn't make any sense. The Catholic faith says in one breath that babies are created by God. Then in another breath that babies that are not baptized go to limbo. If babies are created by God, why would He not take them back with Him if they don't live?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 07/01/04 at 3:44 pm
You know, my mom told me when I was a child that if a baby dies before it is baptized, it goes to 'limbo'. I was taught the same thing in Catholic school.
Catholics believe in "limbo", but I think most other Christian denominations believe there is only Heaven and Hell.
Why would an innocent child not be brought back to God?
Because, according to God, that child is not innocent.
It doesn't make any sense. The Catholic faith says in one breath that babies are created by God. Then in another breath that babies that are not baptized go to limbo. If babies are created by God, why would He not take them back with Him if they don't live?
Why limit that argument to just babies? Isn't everyone created by God? Why would God refuse to take back any person he created? Is it because of original sin or the sins they committed in their lives?
It also says that all babies are born with "original sin", but if Jesus died "for our sins", how can that be?
One way to explain it might be that "for our sins" means "for our sinful nature."
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/01/04 at 4:30 pm
Another way to explain it would be the literal sense : "Christ died for our sins" (I Corinthians 15:3). If God meant it to be "for our sinful nature", why didn't he say it as such?
Exactly.
What does loving God entail? That we follow what he says? This might sound stupid but reading a book about someone (especially someone you can't prove is alive or not) is not an easy way of getting to know, love someone and make a major part of your life.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Hairspray on 07/01/04 at 10:04 pm
What does loving God entail?
I'm no expert Christian, but in my opinion, it probably entails loving and respecting yourself and your fellow man. What better way to show it and also be worthy of receiving the love of God, right? ;)
Edited to add: As great at that sounded as I typed it, It's not that simple.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Hairspray on 07/01/04 at 10:09 pm
I'm no expert Christian, but in my opinion, it probably entails loving and respecting yourself and your fellow man. What better way to show it and also be worthy of receiving the love of God, right? ;)
Oh... Wait!
Christians teach that we could never be worthy of the love of God because we are born with sin. We couldn't even be in the presence of God. That's the whole reason Jesus died for us; to pay the price for our sins. So, we are worthy through Jesus.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: onaree on 07/02/04 at 7:33 am
What I've been taught is that you are "covered" until you reach the age of accountability. This is the time in your life (no certain age) when you realize you sin and fall short of the glory of God. For example, a child that's three won't realize that it is going to die and go to Hell. Or a person who is mentally challenged won't either. But, when you reach the point in your life when you realize that you are committing sin, that's when the whole Heaven and Hell principle comes into play, more or less.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: QueenAmenRa on 07/02/04 at 10:40 am
What I've been taught is that you are "covered" until you reach the age of accountability. This is the time in your life (no certain age) when you realize you sin and fall short of the glory of God. For example, a child that's three won't realize that it is going to die and go to Hell. Or a person who is mentally challenged won't either. But, when you reach the point in your life when you realize that you are committing sin, that's when the whole Heaven and Hell principle comes into play, more or less.
I agree with this. Although I do know some mentally challenged people who have been saved. And don't forget that John the Baptist was saved before he was born. (Luke 1:41)
And to Hairspray: You're on it, doggone it! ;)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: onaree on 07/02/04 at 10:56 am
Exactly.
What does loving God entail? That we follow what he says? This might sound stupid but reading a book about someone (especially someone you can't prove is alive or not) is not an easy way of getting to know, love someone and make a major part of your life.
For me, loving God is almost like second nature. It's also sort of hard to put into words. I love because He first loved me. Reading the Bible is a way to get to know God. It teaches by examples of how He loved others. For example, even though David committed sin, God spared him and David realized this. When the Israelites lived at Kadesh Barnea (I'm sure that's misspelled) for 40 years after Moses brought them out of Egypt, He didn't leave them in the desert to starve. He supplied manna and water for them. In the New Testament, He sent Jesus as an embodiment and example of love. Today, I see God all around me. I see Him in the beautiful earth He created. I see Him each time I see a newborn baby. I see Him in the love He provided me with my husband and family. I see Him when others testify about their answered prayers. I even see Him in the tears during the troubling times. God is always around. He will never leave us or forsake us.
It's sort of like how when I was growing up, I loved Kiefer Sutherland. I knew all about him by reading about him in magazines and talking to others who "knew" about him. It's the same with God. I love him because I've read about His good and marvelous works and I've spoken with others who've felt His love.
I know this is probably as clear as muddy water.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Hairspray on 07/02/04 at 3:09 pm
And to Hairspray: You're on it, doggone it!  ;)
I am?! :D ;)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 07/02/04 at 3:56 pm
Another way to explain it would be the literal sense : "Christ died for our sins" (I Corinthians 15:3). If God meant it to be "for our sinful nature", why didn't he say it as such?
Uh - remember, the Bible wasn't originally written in English.
But anyway, even if it means it the way I think you're interpreting it - that Christ died for the sins we commit personally, as opposed to "original sin" - do you mean that babies are incapable of sinning?
I'm no expert Christian, but in my opinion, it probably entails loving and respecting yourself and your fellow man. What better way to show it and also be worthy of receiving the love of God, right? ;)
Edited to add: As great at that sounded as I typed it, It's not that simple.
I seem to remember the Bible saying you were supposed to love Jesus, not yourself. And to love your neighbor as you (naturally) do yourself.
Love of self does not indicate the love of God, because nearly everyone naturally loves himself or herself. (Hence they are naturally selfish.)
Oh... Wait!
Christians teach that we could never be worthy of the love of God because we are born with sin. We couldn't even be in the presence of God. That's the whole reason Jesus died for us; to pay the price for our sins. So, we are worthy through Jesus.
That sounds more like it.
What I've been taught is that you are "covered" until you reach the age of accountability. This is the time in your life (no certain age) when you realize you sin and fall short of the glory of God. For example, a child that's three won't realize that it is going to die and go to Hell. Or a person who is mentally challenged won't either. But, when you reach the point in your life when you realize that you are committing sin, that's when the whole Heaven and Hell principle comes into play, more or less.
Can you find anything in the Bible to back that up, though?
I suspect a lot of Christians don't want to believe that God would send babies to Hell - but I think they base their conclusion on what they think God should be like, rather than anything in the Bible that says what God is like.
Is there anything in the Bible that says you have to understand before you can be damned?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/02/04 at 7:45 pm
For me, loving God is almost like second nature. It's also sort of hard to put into words. I love because He first loved me. Reading the Bible is a way to get to know God. It teaches by examples of how He loved others. For example, even though David committed sin, God spared him and David realized this. When the Israelites lived at Kadesh Barnea (I'm sure that's misspelled) for 40 years after Moses brought them out of Egypt, He didn't leave them in the desert to starve. He supplied manna and water for them. In the New Testament, He sent Jesus as an embodiment and example of love. Today, I see God all around me. I see Him in the beautiful earth He created. I see Him each time I see a newborn baby. I see Him in the love He provided me with my husband and family. I see Him when others testify about their answered prayers. I even see Him in the tears during the troubling times. God is always around. He will never leave us or forsake us.ÂÂ
It's sort of like how when I was growing up, I loved Kiefer Sutherland. I knew all about him by reading about him in magazines and talking to others who "knew" about him. It's the same with God. I love him because I've read about His good and marvelous works and I've spoken with others who've felt His love.
I know this is probably as clear as muddy water.
This makes sense, Onaree. But you must consider that you have seen Keifer Sutherland and know that he exists. I just get this awful feeling in my stomach that the love of God (if not God himself) is a delusion people have to make their lives more palatable. Who was it that said 'If God didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him?'
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/02/04 at 7:48 pm
I'm no expert Christian, but in my opinion, it probably entails loving and respecting yourself and your fellow man. What better way to show it and also be worthy of receiving the love of God, right? ;)
Edited to add: As great at that sounded as I typed it, It's not that simple.
Isn't that like saying 'You love your mother by showing that love to your brothers and sisters'?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/02/04 at 7:51 pm
Oh... Wait!
Christians teach that we could never be worthy of the love of God because we are born with sin. We couldn't even be in the presence of God. That's the whole reason Jesus died for us; to pay the price for our sins. So, we are worthy through Jesus.
So by accepting Jesus's sacrifice, we are loving God?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 07/02/04 at 9:29 pm
This makes sense, Onaree. But you must consider that you have seen Keifer Sutherland and know that he exists.
Besides that, even if you read everything ever published about Kiefer Sutherland, you wouldn't really know him. You certainly wouldn't be able to say you had a relationship with him - if you did, people would think you were some crazy stalker. :P
Maybe it's just not a completely accurate analogy, but if others look at the way you learn about and love God the way a 13-year-old girl does a pop star, you can understand why they might conclude you're delusional. ;)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/05/04 at 5:59 pm
If you are unable to believe in Jesus, how can you be saved? So, what you are saying is that there are some who can NEVER be saved simply because they cannot comprehend? There are too many scriptures that support this...
What is there not to comprehend, 80s cheerleader, about Jesus? I know of, and believe in Jesus Christ and God (to some extent) but I have little faith that I will get saved. Is anyone who believes really in with a shout of a pleasant afterlife after they have died or when Armageddon occurs?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: gamblefish on 07/05/04 at 6:27 pm
God is love. Without justice, there can be no love, hence the punishment for sinners.
Jesus paid the price for your sin. Jesus wants you to act like Him. Jesus wants you to treat ALL people with kindness, gentleness, love. If you do this, you show your love for God.
God's mercy is not guaranteed, but God gives it freely every day to every person. God does not owe us anything. If God is omnipotent, (as the bible states) He could lift His hand tomorrow and squash the earth like a bug.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/05/04 at 6:41 pm
God is love. Without justice, there can be no love, hence the punishment for sinners.
Jesus paid the price for your sin. Jesus wants you to act like Him. Jesus wants you to treat ALL people with kindness, gentleness, love. If you do this, you show your love for God.
God's mercy is not guaranteed, but God gives it freely every day to every person. God does not owe us anything. If God is omnipotent, (as the bible states) He could lift His hand tomorrow and squash the earth like a bug.
The problem I have here, Gamblefish is essentially what the bible (or religions all over the world) says is that you do everything we say and if you do not, you will feel the wrath of God. It comes across as theological blackmail, Gamblefish. I love watching wrestling on the telly and playing computer games with various amounts of violence in them. Essentially, because of this there will be no hope for me in a pleasant afterlife. We are living in 'the world of the wicked one' (speaking about Satan) and so it is difficult to just simply not sin.
Do you see where I am coming from, Gamblefish? I have been involved with religion for most of my life and I have recieved the wrong messages from it. I have not learnt how God is love or how Jesus's sacrifice has affected me personally but how people afflict and oppress other people by using bible scriptures. Maybe not all religions are wrong but the way I see it, once bitten, twice shy. :)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: gamblefish on 07/05/04 at 9:18 pm
The problem I have here, Gamblefish is essentially what the bible (or religions all over the world) says is that you do everything we say and if you do not, you will feel the wrath of God. It comes across as theological blackmail, Gamblefish. I love watching wrestling on the telly and playing computer games with various amounts of violence in them. Essentially, because of this there will be no hope for me in a pleasant afterlife. We are living in 'the world of the wicked one' (speaking about Satan) and so it is difficult to just simply not sin.
Do you see where I am coming from, Gamblefish? I have been involved with religion for most of my life and I have recieved the wrong messages from it. I have not learnt how God is love or how Jesus's sacrifice has affected me personally but how people afflict and oppress other people by using bible scriptures. Maybe not all religions are wrong but the way I see it, once bitten, twice shy. :)
I guess it could be viewed as blackmail...but I suppose God can do what He wants...He is God after all.
I do not think that because you like television violence you are assured of an afterlife in hell.
I think I know where you are coming from Bobby. I think that basically all the rules and regulations in the bible boil down to "Don't do things that will hurt other people". Simple as that. I will be the first to admit that I have used scripture as a weapon in the past, but I am trying to change my evil ways... ;D
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 07/06/04 at 7:20 am
But, I was referring to the mentally handicapped and small children, for whom it is IMPOSSIBLE to comprehend Jesus or God. I simply do not believe that they cannot go to Heaven as they cannot be "saved" under the definitions previously given.
I think you are right. God knows what a person is capable of and wouldn't send them to hell because they were unable to comprehend. I have never believed that God sent babies to hell because they didn't have time to accept Him.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: gamblefish on 07/06/04 at 12:42 pm
But, I was referring to the mentally handicapped and small children, for whom it is IMPOSSIBLE to comprehend Jesus or God. I simply do not believe that they cannot go to Heaven as they cannot be "saved" under the definitions previously given.
I believe you are right too, can I be great!? ;D
The only scriptural backup I can think of for this is in either Chronicles or Kings. I can look up the exact reference if you like, but for now here is the Reader's Digest version:
King David is praying for his infant son, who is deathly ill, to recover. David prays fervently night and day for his son to live. Well, his son dies, and everyone is afraid to tell David the child is dead because they just know he will go ballistic. When they work up the guts they tell him, and David immediately cleans himself up and goes to the temple to worship. When asked why he is so calm about his son's death, he explains that he knows he will be reunited with his dead son in heaven.
I believe the same would apply to anyone who does not have the ability to comprehend salvation.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 07/06/04 at 5:34 pm
if Jesus really died for "our sins" how can a baby possibly be a "sinner"?
Do babies ever lie? Are they ever selfish? Do they ever - and I believe this is one of the things mentioned as a great sin in the Bible - fail to recognize and honor God?
If you are unable to believe in Jesus, how can you be saved? So, what you are saying is that there are some who can NEVER be saved simply because they cannot comprehend? There are too many scriptures that support this...
Give me some scripture that says someone is exempt from the "all have sinned" bit. Give me some scripture that says God would not send babies to hell. Give me some scripture that says God differentiates between those who can and cannot understand sin, and that says he is lenient toward those who cannot.
I think you are right. God knows what a person is capable of and wouldn't send them to hell because they were unable to comprehend. I have never believed that God sent babies to hell because they didn't have time to accept Him.
But where is your scripture to support this belief?
The only scriptural backup I can think of for this is in either Chronicles or Kings. I can look up the exact reference if you like, but for now here is the Reader's Digest version:
King David is praying for his infant son, who is deathly ill, to recover. David prays fervently night and day for his son to live. Well, his son dies, and everyone is afraid to tell David the child is dead because they just know he will go ballistic. When they work up the guts they tell him, and David immediately cleans himself up and goes to the temple to worship. When asked why he is so calm about his son's death, he explains that he knows he will be reunited with his dead son in heaven.
I believe the same would apply to anyone who does not have the ability to comprehend salvation.
In the Old Testament, people were able to bargain for salvation on someone else's behalf. The priest gave burnt offerings for everyone. Job gave sacrifices on behalf of his children, didn't he? The Old Testament didn't show people accepting Christ as their Savior, as I recall.
(Also, I've been told that there's not much evidence in the Old Testament that people go to heaven - so getting the exact passage would be helpful to refute that point, if indeed David says he will be reunited with his child in the afterlife.)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 07/06/04 at 6:16 pm
But where is your scripture to support this belief?
I never said I had scripture to support this belief. I just know God's love and to me my belief fits into God's love. If I am wrong, I guess I will find out in Heaven.
Where is your scripture that says specifically that he sends babies to hell? I understand the "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" scripture...but where does it say that babies can be punished for something they don't understand?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/06/04 at 6:20 pm
I guess it could be viewed as blackmail...but I suppose God can do what He wants...He is God after all.ÂÂ
God is a good God and is a loving perfect God. If our 'father' is such a loving (and wise) God, he would not resort to blackmail regardless of whether he has the capabilities or not.
Regardless, I was speaking about the 'officials' within religious organisations rather than God himself. The 'scribes and the pharisees' if you will. :)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/06/04 at 6:23 pm
But, I was referring to the mentally handicapped and small children, for whom it is IMPOSSIBLE to comprehend Jesus or God. I simply do not believe that they cannot go to Heaven as they cannot be "saved" under the definitions previously given.
Ah right, it wasn't obvious to me, sorry 80s cheerleader. :)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/06/04 at 6:28 pm
I actually think 'hell' was just something the church put in place just to make people a little more God-fearing centuries ago (if there is a heaven, it makes sense for religious leaders to add an antithesis/opposite). It wouldn't be the first time the church has modified religion. So going along with that thinking, the babies and hell thing in my opinion has no basis IMO.
Unless you guys would like to give me scriptures? :)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: gamblefish on 07/06/04 at 8:34 pm
In the Old Testament, people were able to bargain for salvation on someone else's behalf. The priest gave burnt offerings for everyone. Job gave sacrifices on behalf of his children, didn't he? The Old Testament didn't show people accepting Christ as their Savior, as I recall.
(Also, I've been told that there's not much evidence in the Old Testament that people go to heaven - so getting the exact passage would be helpful to refute that point, if indeed David says he will be reunited with his child in the afterlife.)
The passage is in 2 Samuel 12. The specific verses are 22-23:
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?  23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (emphasis mine). ÂÂ
As for the OT priests, the various sacrifices they made for the sins of the people were only temporary and had to be performed year after year. They did not guarantee salvation but a mere temporal covering for sin:
Hbr 10:4 For not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Folks in the OT were "saved" (not a favorite word of mine) by putting their faith in a future Messiah...Jesus Christ.
A classic OT passage that refers to putting one's faith in the coming Messiah is found in Numbers chapter 21.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: gamblefish on 07/06/04 at 8:44 pm
God is a good God and is a loving perfect God. If our 'father' is such a loving (and wise) God, he would not resort to blackmail regardless of whether he has the capabilities or not.
Regardless, I was speaking about the 'officials' within religious organisations rather than God himself. The 'scribes and the pharisees' if you will. :)
Certainly there are many in the church today who would love to see us all labor under the weight of rules and regulations that they themselves cannot keep.
As far as the blackmail thing, ask yourself this question. When was the last time you saw the hand of God come down in wrath on some unsuspecting sinner? I would venture your answer will be "never". So think of it this way...
God is a parent and we are the children. Parents make boundaries for their children to protect them from harm. The children don't always understand the boundaries and think the parent is just trying to spoil their fun. "Mommy, please let me eat that whole gallon of ice cream!!!! I promise I won't get sick!!!!" I'm sure all you parents can relate to this.
God has set up boundaries for us to protect us. It is up to us to stay within those boundaries to enjoy a happy, healthy, long life. For example, God says "Don't fool around on your spouse". God does not want your spouse to be hurt. But say you fool around on your spouse anyway. Happily, the hand of God does not come down and squash you, so you do it over and over again. Then some day, your spouse finds out. What was once a groovy good time now has turned into a nightmare for both you and your spouse. The marriage is broken and the whole family gets hurt. It is not so much the wrath of God that we need to worry about, it is the consequences of our sin and what it does to those around us.
Does any of this make sense?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: gamblefish on 07/06/04 at 8:48 pm
You ARE great ;)
Awwwwwwwwwww...thanks Cheer...you're swell too!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why am I in this barrel???! :D
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 07/06/04 at 9:19 pm
Where is your scripture that says specifically that he sends babies to hell? I understand the "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" scripture...but where does it say that babies can be punished for something they don't understand?
I don't specifically have a verse that says "babies are accountable" or "babies can go to hell." However, as for people being condemned when unable to understand:
Mark 4
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Sure...
Romans 3:20: "For through the Law comes the knowledge of sin"
(Rom 7:7) "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"
(James 4:17) "To one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin"
Hmmm... weren't you just quoting a different passage that says people didn't need to have known the Law in order to be sinners? Of course, even that, I think, has the implication that the people know what they are doing is wrong.
(Luke 18:15-17) "People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.'"
It says the kingdom of God "belongs to such as these", not that it "belongs to these." It seems to imply that there must be something childlike in the acceptance of Christ. (A person must be like a child to accept it - does that then mean that the children are capable of accepting it?)
The passage is in 2 Samuel 12. The specific verses are 22-23:
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?  23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (emphasis mine). ÂÂ
It's not apparent to me that the passage means what you think. It isn't clear that he's talking about something that will happen in the future. He may be clarifying his rhetorical question. It's possible that it means something like: "Can I bring him back again? I can go to him , but he will not return to me."
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: gamblefish on 07/06/04 at 9:50 pm
It's not apparent to me that the passage means what you think. It isn't clear that he's talking about something that will happen in the future. He may be clarifying his rhetorical question. It's possible that it means something like: "Can I bring him back again? I can go to him , but he will not return to me."
You could interpret it that way, but it makes more sense my way... ;D
When reading the whole passage, David seems to derive great comfort in the fact that "I (David) shall go to him". It does not make sense that David is comforted knowing he can visit his dead son's grave, but rather that David will see his dead son in heaven.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: womberty on 07/06/04 at 10:45 pm
You are assuming comfort; it could easily be interpreted as resignation.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 07/07/04 at 7:29 am
I don't specifically have a verse that says "babies are accountable" or "babies can go to hell." However, as for people being condemned when unable to understand:
Mark 4
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
You are quoting the parable of the sower. It isn't talking about those unable to comprehend, it is talking about how people take the word they hear.
13-20
Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? The farmer sows the words. Some people are like seed along the path where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the worrd that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the deisires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop - thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown.
It is easy to take a verse out of context. A good rule is to read the 10 verses before and the 10 verses after and that will put it into the correct context.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/08/04 at 6:00 pm
Certainly there are many in the church today who would love to see us all labor under the weight of rules and regulations that they themselves cannot keep.
As far as the blackmail thing, ask yourself this question. When was the last time you saw the hand of God come down in wrath on some unsuspecting sinner? I would venture your answer will be "never". So think of it this way...
God is a parent and we are the children. Parents make boundaries for their children to protect them from harm. The children don't always understand the boundaries and think the parent is just trying to spoil their fun. "Mommy, please let me eat that whole gallon of ice cream!!!! I promise I won't get sick!!!!" I'm sure all you parents can relate to this.
God has set up boundaries for us to protect us. It is up to us to stay within those boundaries to enjoy a happy, healthy, long life. For example, God says "Don't fool around on your spouse". God does not want your spouse to be hurt. But say you fool around on your spouse anyway. Happily, the hand of God does not come down and squash you, so you do it over and over again. Then some day, your spouse finds out. What was once a groovy good time now has turned into a nightmare for both you and your spouse. The marriage is broken and the whole family gets hurt. It is not so much the wrath of God that we need to worry about, it is the consequences of our sin and what it does to those around us.
Does any of this make sense?
As mentioned previously, Gamblefish, the 'blackmail' comes from the organisation, not from God himself. I was brought up associating with Jehovah's Witnesses and they were a rigid strict group. Not only do we abide by God within that religion, we followed the Watchtower Bible Society. I believed they wielded the bible like a 'sword' to keep the followers fearful.
Yes, what you say makes sense, Gamblefish. I appreciate the 'father' analogy and has been mentioned in the 'church' I used to go. What I find discomforting is not the here and now but, according to religion, what happens after we die.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: SI-MAE on 07/12/04 at 10:47 am
When I hear Hell mentioned it is usually described as 'fiery torment that lasts for eternity'. If a God based on love and true justice sees a sinner, why not just end his life rather than have the person tortured forever? Is that really showing love and true justice?
I believe that Hell is often defined as "the permanent abscence of God". God's justice is apparently this: If one goes against his will, he will shut him out forever. Without the protection of God the sinner had in life, the demons may do what they like with him. So there. My theory.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/12/04 at 5:51 pm
I believe that Hell is often defined as "the permanent abscence of God". God's justice is apparently this: If one goes against his will, he will shut him out forever. Without the protection of God the sinner had in life, the demons may do what they like with him. So there. My theory.
A theory indeed. ;)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 07/12/04 at 6:18 pm
I believe that Hell is often defined as "the permanent abscence of God". God's justice is apparently this: If one goes against his will, he will shut him out forever. Without the protection of God the sinner had in life, the demons may do what they like with him. So there. My theory.
Rev 20:10 talks of Satan being thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 talks of anyone whose name is not in the book of live also being thrown into the lake of fire.
To me this says that Hell is more than the absence of God...it is a fiery torment.
(although, the hell portrayed in What Dreams May Come scared the pants off me.)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/13/04 at 7:32 pm
Rev 20:10 talks of Satan being thrown into the lake of fire.ÂÂ
Rev 20:15 talks of anyone whose name is not in the book of live also being thrown into the lake of fire.
To me this says that Hell is more than the absence of God...it is a fiery torment.
(although, the hell portrayed in What Dreams May Come scared the pants off me.)
Are we meant to take Revelation literally? I have been told that a lot of what is in this book is symbollic (for example, there are no literal four horsemen but an illustration to show how War, Famine, Pestilence and Death will ravage the world).
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Dagwood on 07/13/04 at 9:11 pm
I think it may be symbolic, but I take the lake of fire to be a lake of fire. I don't see any symbolism there.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 07/14/04 at 3:19 am
I think it may be symbolic, but I take the lake of fire to be a lake of fire. I don't see any symbolism there.
Why not? The 'Dragon' (Satan) is bound in 'chains' (surely it means 'inactivity' since Demons can easily break out of literal metal chains I'm sure) and thrown into a lake of fire. It could be symbollic for God's anger and permanent destruction.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: SI-MAE on 07/14/04 at 11:30 am
To me this says that Hell is more than the absence of God...it is a fiery torment.
I know that. What I was saying is that in the absence of God and his protection, there is nothing stopping the torment or ending it.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: darktower on 04/12/05 at 1:01 pm
The Christian faith is not intended to be fire insurance; you don't receive a "get out of hell" free card. Any Christian who is focused on hell, or pointing a nonbeliever to it, needs to do a 180 and face in the right direction. Jesus' Great Commission was not "Um...would you go and try to persuade them to choose between harps and halos, or fiery eternal torment?" but "Go and make disciples of all nations...that they may have life, and have it to the full" (Matt. 28:19; John 10:10, NIV). The message is not to escape from "hell" and try to get to "heaven" but to give up a pointless and suffocating death, and to joyfully accept the gift of new, loving and abundant life. Paul never mentions hell - not once. In the first Christian sermon, Peter pleads with his readers, not to save themselves from "hell", but from "this corrupt generation" (Acts 2:40, NIV). As to what happens when we go into the hole - "Sheol", "Hades", or "hell" , which are respectively Hebrew, Greek, and Germanic words meaning "that which is hidden, covered, unseen"- I leave that to God, and try to get on with the business of trying to "take hold of the life that is truly life" (1 Timothy 6:19, NIV). I am not called to pointless philosophical debates about the afterlife. I am most definitely called to "fix (my) thoughts on Jesus" (Heb. 3:1, NIV).
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Apricot on 04/12/05 at 2:09 pm
Well, I used to believe in God. But when I did, I never viewed him as all loving. I viewed him as very pompous, egotistical, angry, and selective. Abusive, in a nutshell.
But now I don't even feel like he's there. Bad things happen due to circumstance and situation, not some man upstairs pulling the strings.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: C.NOIZE on 04/12/05 at 8:13 pm
God is loving, but he does have a temper.
After all, when you really look at it, following God's Word is not that difficult. It's the inability to conquer temptation that leads us astray. Pure lack of willpower. This is why God gets angry.
For example, Jesus wasn't too happy the night of his arrest. His disciples were supposed to keep guard while he prayed. Not a difficult task. But they fell asleep. And then as Jesus was being arrested, one of the disciples (I forget who) attacked a soldier and cut off his ear, going against many of Jesus's teachings. Jesus was rightfully angry, as was God.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Apricot on 04/12/05 at 8:20 pm
God is loving, but he does have a temper.
After all, when you really look at it, following God's Word is not that difficult. It's the inability to conquer temptation that leads us astray. Pure lack of willpower. This is why God gets angry.
For example, Jesus wasn't too happy the night of his arrest. His disciples were supposed to keep guard while he prayed. Not a difficult task. But they fell asleep. And then as Jesus was being arrested, one of the disciples (I forget who) attacked a soldier and cut off his ear, going against many of Jesus's teachings. Jesus was rightfully angry, as was God.
You raise good points. But then, you really have to feel religion, don't you? You can't just claim to believe, you gotta FEEL it in your heart, right?
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: C.NOIZE on 04/12/05 at 8:44 pm
You raise good points. But then, you really have to feel religion, don't you? You can't just claim to believe, you gotta FEEL it in your heart, right?
Yeah, you really should feel religion in your heart and know that what you believe is the ultimate truth. And I'll admit, I have yet to reach that point. But I know that I want to, and I will continue to work for it.
That's why I never really liked having the intelligence that I do. I know God gave it to me to do his work, in some still unknown way. However, my intelligence has also led me to be dependant on myself at times and not on God, and I don't like that. I try to listen to God's call, to put my faith in him, but then the intelligence enters the picture and makes me think. Faith like a child's...I wish I could obtain that again. To believe without logic, to love God and spread his Word without worries of offending people. It's funny. Now that I really have the power to spread the Word amongst the unbelievers, I also have the intelligence and thought processes that lead me to worry about frivolous things that really don't matter.
It may be simple and easy, but it sure takes a lot of mindset and conviction.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Apricot on 04/13/05 at 10:01 am
Yeah, you really should feel religion in your heart and know that what you believe is the ultimate truth. And I'll admit, I have yet to reach that point. But I know that I want to, and I will continue to work for it.
That's why I never really liked having the intelligence that I do. I know God gave it to me to do his work, in some still unknown way. However, my intelligence has also led me to be dependant on myself at times and not on God, and I don't like that. I try to listen to God's call, to put my faith in him, but then the intelligence enters the picture and makes me think. Faith like a child's...I wish I could obtain that again. To believe without logic, to love God and spread his Word without worries of offending people. It's funny. Now that I really have the power to spread the Word amongst the unbelievers, I also have the intelligence and thought processes that lead me to worry about frivolous things that really don't matter.
It may be simple and easy, but it sure takes a lot of mindset and conviction.
Yo yall Matthew is so ^$*&^$(*& ghey I mean comeon imo Matthew iz ghey because he z sooo Y^$)*()* T^ %*()*) ghey. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
But seriously... Uh, I'll respond later. I'm in math right now. And Matthew is reading my post. Ghey.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: darktower on 04/18/05 at 1:51 pm
But if he loves everybody, why would he let someone he loves go to hell? (Or do you believe there is no hell?)
Think of the way you would love your own child. If you dislike something they do wrong, but you still love them, what do you do? You might punish them, but you don't cast them out from your presence for eternity. You might use temporary punishments to try and correct their behavior, but the goal is correction. What is the goal of hell, if it's permanent?
You've picked up the scent, womberty...keep on going!
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: darktower on 04/18/05 at 1:57 pm
It's the antagonizing question that makes people wonder all the time. Why do good things happen to bad people? and Why do bad things happen to good people?
I believe in God. It's Heaven and Hell I'm not so sure about.
Just read your post, Harmonica; IMO, you've had a revelation. Or are about to have one.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: DevoRule on 04/19/05 at 9:55 pm
Well, I used to believe in God. But when I did, I never viewed him as all loving. I viewed him as very pompous, egotistical, angry, and selective. Abusive, in a nutshell.
But now I don't even feel like he's there. Bad things happen due to circumstance and situation, not some man upstairs pulling the strings.
I feel the same way. For a time I wondered how God could let us torture animals and doom people to eternity in Hell (even for the meanest people that's too much), so I figured there can't be a God as Christians know him.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: sputnikcorp on 04/19/05 at 9:57 pm
I feel the same way. For a time I wondered how God could let us torture animals and doom people to eternity in Hell (even for the meanest people that's too much), so I figured there can't be a God as Christians know him.
thats why i jumped ship. goodbye christianity, you had your chance...
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Bobby on 04/20/05 at 5:23 am
God is loving, but he does have a temper.
After all, when you really look at it, following God's Word is not that difficult. It's the inability to conquer temptation that leads us astray. Pure lack of willpower. This is why God gets angry.
For example, Jesus wasn't too happy the night of his arrest. His disciples were supposed to keep guard while he prayed. Not a difficult task. But they fell asleep. And then as Jesus was being arrested, one of the disciples (I forget who) attacked a soldier and cut off his ear, going against many of Jesus's teachings. Jesus was rightfully angry, as was God.
Jesus was capable of 'godly' anger all right. Remember when the religious leaders set up market places in the religious temples? Jesus went mad and tipped the stalls and money everywhere.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Alchoholica on 04/20/05 at 6:05 am
Supposedly we are made in God's Image. Thus God must also have the ability to sin. Therefore him punishing us for sinning (which face it, we have all done) is somewhat hypocritical, after all, how does he know he wont turn around tomorrow and sin?
Sounds far fetched, but think about it.
IMO no God Dosen't love us all, you have all heard my tirades about organised religion, but that's the Christian Church i have problems with. I believe that there is a God, when i look around and see the world i can't accept that this was just a freak accident.
However! I see god as far more of a distant figure. IF we were made in his image and we have free will, he does as well. Thus i belive he will let us get on with it in our own way. If there is a heaven or isn't a heaven is a matter of debate i don't want to get in to right now (Because i have to go to the Optician) but No i don't believe God Loves everyone.
http://www.midnightmetal.com/images/slayer/slayer_013.jpg
Nah.. he dosen't but wouldn't it be funny if it was all a sick sick joke ;D
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Harmonica on 04/20/05 at 9:13 am
Just read your post, Harmonica; IMO, you've had a revelation. Or are about to have one.
Hmmmm....perhaps
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: C.NOIZE on 04/20/05 at 5:55 pm
Supposedly we are made in God's Image. Thus God must also have the ability to sin. Therefore him punishing us for sinning (which face it, we have all done) is somewhat hypocritical, after all, how does he know he wont turn around tomorrow and sin?
Sounds far fetched, but think about it.
IMO no God Dosen't love us all, you have all heard my tirades about organised religion, but that's the Christian Church i have problems with. I believe that there is a God, when i look around and see the world i can't accept that this was just a freak accident.
However! I see god as far more of a distant figure. IF we were made in his image and we have free will, he does as well. Thus i belive he will let us get on with it in our own way. If there is a heaven or isn't a heaven is a matter of debate i don't want to get in to right now (Because i have to go to the Optician) but No i don't believe God Loves everyone.
I think you're stretching the "made in his image" thing a bit too far. God can do all sorts of things that we can't, because we were made in his image, and his image only. We were not given the same powers, the same abilities as God. We only look like him.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Alchoholica on 04/20/05 at 6:00 pm
I think you're stretching the "made in his image" thing a bit too far. God can do all sorts of things that we can't, because we were made in his image, and his image only. We were not given the same powers, the same abilities as God. We only look like him.
So.. by that i assume you mean he looks just like us?
I have never viewed god as a Corporeal being (is that the right spelling.. i doubt it)
I would assume, made in his image would mean we are like him in our ways.
This is another difference of opinion that isn't going to be solved ;D
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: DevoRule on 04/20/05 at 6:06 pm
So.. by that i assume you mean he looks just like us?
I have never viewed god as a Corporeal being (is that the right spelling.. i doubt it)
I would assume, made in his image would mean we are like him in our ways.
This is another difference of opinion that isn't going to be solved ;D
I think God, when people aren't hidden from the truth by the meat that surrounds our soul, picture "The Creative Mind", or God if you many, as a white light.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: C.NOIZE on 04/20/05 at 6:14 pm
This is another difference of opinion that isn't going to be solved ;D
You can say that again. ;)
But even so, the word "image" is not usually associated with the abilities and actions of a being. So, looking like is the only similarity between us.
I think God, when people aren't hidden from the truth by the meat that surrounds our soul, picture "The Creative Mind", or God if you many, as a white light.
If God was, or is, a white light, then why would he need to create light? ;D
But, once again I will say it: we are created in God's image. We are most certainly not blinding white lights.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: DevoRule on 04/20/05 at 6:24 pm
You can say that again. ;)
But even so, the word "image" is not usually associated with the abilities and actions of a being. So, looking like is the only similarity between us.
If God was, or is, a white light, then why would he need to create light? ;D
But, once again I will say it: we are created in God's image. We are most certainly not blinding white lights.
I'd highly doubt God is made of meat.
But I respect your right to believe :)
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: C.NOIZE on 04/20/05 at 6:29 pm
I never said that God was made of flesh and bones. But I do believe that he looks like us, whatever he may be. I picture him as a kindly gentlemanly ghost-type thing. That looks like a person. Remember, we are created in his image, and only his image.
I can look into a mirror and see myself. Now that thing that mirror has created has my image, but nothing else belonging to me. (And actually, my image belongs to God, since it was his to begin with.) We're God's mirrors.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: sputnikcorp on 04/20/05 at 6:40 pm
god would be an androgenous biped without real discernable features. he would be a polymorph, he can change his features at will.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: ElDuderino on 04/20/05 at 6:43 pm
god would be an androgenous biped without real discernable features. he would be a polymorph, he can change his features at will.
I thought he'd look more like this..
http://southpark.unas.cz/opisyodcinkow/sezon3/316.jpg
Guy on the left.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: sputnikcorp on 04/20/05 at 6:44 pm
;D
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: C.NOIZE on 04/20/05 at 6:53 pm
god would be an androgenous biped without real discernable features. he would be a polymorph, he can change his features at will.
That makes sense, but I think the two genders come from the fact that marriage unifies the two parts. Maybe...God is actually a married couple!  ;D
Actually, your idea works a bit better and is easier to comprehend. After all, God is omnipotent.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Miss Tainted on 04/21/05 at 7:42 pm
I believe God loves everyone but I don't know about the rest...... There are a lot of different opinions on this, some people believe that if we do something horrible we are only sent to hell for a certain amount of time and then reincarnated back on the earth to try and make things right and that goes on and on and on until you finally make it to heaven. I don't know if I believe in that or even if it's right to believe like that but I guess we'll just have to do our best to do what God wants and then see when we pass on into the after-life.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: DevoRule on 04/21/05 at 7:45 pm
I believe God loves everyone but I don't know about the rest...... There are a lot of different opinions on this, some people believe that if we do something horrible we are only sent to hell for a certain amount of time and then reincarnated back on the earth to try and make things right and that goes on and on and on until you finally make it to heaven. I don't know if I believe in that or even if it's right to believe like that but I guess we'll just have to do our best to do what God wants and then see when we pass on into the after-life.
I believe Heaven and Hell are both essentially the same thing ... when stripped of your body all you can think about is what you did for or against society. If you were a punk you will be in Hell because of self-hate, if you were a saint you'll be in Heaven because you are at peace. That said, eventually you can choose to pass onto another life, but if you still have hate in your heart it will become bad karma in your "next life", which can be as a human, animal, rock, alien, whatever.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: whitewolf on 04/21/05 at 8:18 pm
I believe that if a person does something really horrible but is truly sorry then that person will get into heaven. God forgives everone who asks for forgiveness. But the lord works in mysterious ways, he can see into your heart and know if you are truly sorry or just saying the words,
Anyone can say Forgive me Dear Lord for I have sinned, but not all are really sorry.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Alchoholica on 04/21/05 at 8:34 pm
Couldn't resist....YOU'RE RIGHT!!! :o :o :o
HO-LE sheit!
You realise i now have the ultimate trump card.
I'm soooo carrying a dictionary with me from now on. ;D
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Alchoholica on 04/21/05 at 8:47 pm
unabridged, of course ;) I'm sure the women will be FLOCKING to you if you do :D
You mean they aren't now? :(
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: ElDuderino on 04/21/05 at 8:57 pm
It works! My vocabulary dazzles the ladies.
Subject: Re: The Love of God
Written By: Alchoholica on 04/22/05 at 8:06 am
ummmm....sure.....but there would be even MORE if you carried around an unabridged dictionary with you (you DO realize what one of those is, don't you ;D)
Yes.. a dictionary that you can't walk or drive across.