The policy Bush has implemented brings our returning dead troops home without ceremony until they are buried in their home communities.  A letter writer to my local paper (with whom I agree) suggests that this minimizes their sacrifice and therefore dishonors them.  She believes that they should not be flown in at night, and should recieve full military honors as they are brought off the transports.  Clearly, this would tend to sharpen opposition to Georgie's policies (remember the flack over the photos of those coffins).

Thoughts?  Is the Bush directive an affront to the honor of these brave soldiers or is it respectful?

Like democrats really care, I hate to sound harsh but I honestly believe that some democrats care more about winning the white house then the war on terror.

Like democrats really care, I hate to sound harsh but I honestly believe that some democrats care more about winning the white house then the war on terror.


I take offense at this.  In fact, first, I am not a Democrate.  Second, I think I care one hell of a lot more about our troops/veterans than Lill' Georgie does.  For example, I think they are underpaid while in, and getting screwed as veterans.  Why do other Fed Gov retirees get BOTH retirement AND disability pay, while military retirees get disability pay DEDUCTED from their retirement pay, and my wife is one of those disabled vets.  Why has Georgie tried to REDUCE the VA budget?  Good God, my "Socialist" Congressman, Bernie Sanders, has been a stronger supporter of Vets that that little punk in the White House. 

And an aquaintance of mine just came home in a box.  I attended his funaral.  So don't you dare tell me its just political.  He was a good man and a good person, and should have lived a long and happy life with his wife and kids.  It may be just political to you. but its personal to me.  These returning coffins deserve the same honor, the same cerimony, the same honor, that Ronny Reagan got.  AND MORE.

The policy Bush has implemented brings our returning dead troops home without ceremony until they are buried in their home communities.  A letter writer to my local paper (with whom I agree) suggests that this minimizes their sacrifice and therefore dishonors them.  She believes that they should not be flown in at night, and should recieve full military honors as they are brought off the transports.  Clearly, this would tend to sharpen opposition to Georgie's policies (remember the flack over the photos of those coffins).


When was the last time we honored our dead from a foreign war by publicizing their return?

A big factor in the case of the coffin photos was that the families had not given permission for their dead to be photographed - even if they could not be identified in the photo, it was still their right to choose whether to expose their loved ones' bodies and coffins to the media. No one stopped them from letting the media into funerals - but they had the right to keep the media out if they wanted.

HEY HEY HEY I do care, I care a lot.  What part of SOME democrats didn't anyone understand?

I take offense at this.  In fact, first, I am not a Democrate.  Second, I think I care one hell of a lot more about our troops/veterans than Lill' Georgie does.  For example, I think they are underpaid while in, and getting screwed as veterans.  Why do other Fed Gov retirees get BOTH retirement AND disability pay, while military retirees get disability pay DEDUCTED from their retirement pay, and my wife is one of those disabled vets.  Why has Georgie tried to REDUCE the VA budget?  Good God, my "Socialist" Congressman, Bernie Sanders, has been a stronger supporter of Vets that that little punk in the White House. 

And an aquaintance of mine just came home in a box.  I attended his funaral.  So don't you dare tell me its just political.  He was a good man and a good person, and should have lived a long and happy life with his wife and kids.  It may be just political to you. but its personal to me.  These returning coffins deserve the same honor, the same cerimony, the same honor, that Ronny Reagan got.  AND MORE.



Don Carlos, for once I agree with you. I've seen how active servicemen and veterans get treated and I hate it. They deserve a hell of a lot more than cr*ppy pay and no benefits when they retire from the military.

That being said, I think that the dead servicemen deserve more than being snuck into the country without honors, especially after they gave their lives.

When was the last time we honored our dead from a foreign war by publicizing their return?

A big factor in the case of the coffin photos was that the families had not given permission for their dead to be photographed - even if they could not be identified in the photo, it was still their right to choose whether to expose their loved ones' bodies and coffins to the media. No one stopped them from letting the media into funerals - but they had the right to keep the media out if they wanted.


You may not remember, but there were MANY ceremonies honoring the the returning cadavers for Vietnam AND Korea.  I guess at the time the Gov't thought it would inspire "patriotism" (read "my country right or wrong).  And no one asked the families what they wanted.

You may not remember, but there were MANY ceremonies honoring the the returning cadavers for Vietnam AND Korea.

I don't remember... I wasn't even born yet!  :o

HEY HEY HEY I do care, I care a lot.  What part of SOME democrats didn't anyone understand?

"HEY HEY HEY"? You ougta change your avatar to Krusty the Clown (or Fat Albert).  You said , "like democrats really care," and then you said "some democrats."  Please, GWB, you chose not to address the issue at all, but lashed out Ann Coulter-style at "Democrats."  What kind of reaction were you looking for?

Anyway,  the Bush Administration would make a great public specacle of our returning dead, I mean, they'd really put on the dog, IF they DIDN'T want us to think about how many soldiers are getting slaughtered over there in Iraq.  I believe the Administration's policy is purely political.

HEY HEY HEY I do care, I care a lot.  What part of SOME democrats didn't anyone understand?


So you do care. Ok, how many letters have you writtent to your Cong Reps favoring increasing military pay?  Or increasing Vet's bennies?  My guess is none, zero, zilth.  And are you a vet?  I ask because NONE of Lill' Georgie's cohorts, nor Georgie have ever been in harms way (and Georgie was so patriotic that he was AWOL from defending us against... Mexico?).

And someone brought partisan politics into this, so I would point out that honoring our war dead is not a partisan issue, but someone's trying to make it one is just another variant of right wing idiologs trying to wrap themselves in the flag and disparaging the patriotism of those who disagree with them.  If anything, I am a patriot and maybe more of a patriot, since I am not willing to say that "we are there" and have achieved our national destiny (equality, justice, etc), but willing to say that there is more to do, and willing to take on those who oppose those goals for their own profit.

I don't remember... I wasn't even born yet!  :o


I understand.  All I can say is READ HISTORY.  I'm not saying that your life experiances are not valid as a guide to your beliefs and attitudes, they certainly are, as are mine.  But they are limited.  I think it is important to develop a historical perspective.  I'm not suggesting that you, or anyone, become a historian - not much in job possibilities there - just that we all need to have a sense of where we came from so that we can get a grip on where we want to go.  I guess that you have that sense in terms of your personal history - I hope you do.  In my family we call it roots, and (so far) seem to have given the kids the wings to "go for themselves".  Please keep reading, keep learning, and most important, keep thinking!!!!

All I can say is READ HISTORY. ...  I think it is important to develop a historical perspective.

Certainly. I just get lazy in the information age, so sometimes if it isn't included in the CNN article, I don't know about it.  :P

Bush has already proved he served and was never AWOL.  Do you hear anyone in the media talking about that anymore?  My guess would be no.  Some democrats won't drop it even after they have been proved wrong, like so many other issues.  After 8 years of defending a draft-dodger like Clinton and saying ''who cares?'' when Bob Dole mentioned his service in World War 2 you wonder where the democrats get room to talk all of a sudden?  Democrats jump up and down and go literally crazy after 800+ deaths but don't want anyone to think about the 55,000 we lost in Vietnam which the democrats caused to die in vain.

Bush has already proved he served and was never AWOL.  Do you hear anyone in the media talking about that anymore?  My guess would be no.  Some democrats won't drop it even after they have been proved wrong, like so many other issues.  After 8 years of defending a draft-dodger like Clinton and saying ''who cares?'' when Bob Dole mentioned his service in World War 2 you wonder where the democrats get room to talk all of a sudden?  Democrats jump up and down and go literally crazy after 800+ deaths but don't want anyone to think about the 55,000 we lost in Vietnam which the democrats caused to die in vain.

Well, it was a few specific Democrats.  JFK would most likely have phased out our involvement, but it is hard to second guess history.  The Johnson Administration really got us mired down in an unwinnable land war in Asia (the kind MacArthur warned about), but the Nixon Administration didn't really start mobilzing a pull out until 1972.
And let's not conflate "Democrats" with "liberals" and the "Left."  The Left was always against the war and were called "commie-pinko-un-American-no-good-long-haired-subversive-dope-smoking-f*gg*t-effete-elitist-nattering-nabobs-of-negativism-bum-junkie-never-worked-a-day-in-your-life-spoiled-ingrate-Maoist-posey-sniffing-traitors-you-don't-know-how-tough-your-father-had-it-when-he-was-a-kid-don't-love-your-country-draft-card-burning-sex-fiend-get-a-job-hippie-freeloader-sandal-wearing-vegetarian-anti-Christian-scum..."
Sort of like today.

Certainly. I just get lazy in the information age, so sometimes if it isn't included in the CNN article, I don't know about it.  :P


I understand.  And most people have lots of other things to worry about.  You may be one of them.  All I can say is TRY.  Don't let "the pundants" make up your mind.  Look for other sources.  Ask youself, when someone tryies to tell you what to believe, "who profits if I I follow this idea?  Where are MY intersts?  Who shares my interests?  Who supports them? 

I'm not going to give you a partisan rant.  These are questions that you need to answer for yourself.  All I ask is that you think about yourself and your famiily.  What do you/they need?  What would make their lives better?  I'm not going to intrude here with partisan questions.  I suspect I don't have to.  All I can humbally suggest is that when you think about politics, you think about who's policies seem to be good for you and your family.

I would also say to you that although we have a disagreement on another I hope you understand that I in no way take that personal.  Whatever our disagreements on issues, I most certainly respect your right to your beliefs.  I hope you recipricate, and that you consider my views.

When was the last time we honored our dead from a foreign war by publicizing their return?


How about never?

It took almost a YEAR for the photos from D-Day to be published in the US.  In the past, "censorship" was something that the press voluntarily did in order to help keep morale up at home, and to protect the lives of the servicemen.

Just to make another comparison:  More men died in the first 2 hours of D-Day then have died in Afganistan and Iraq COMBINED.  How is that for putting things in perspective?

You may not remember, but there were MANY ceremonies honoring the the returning cadavers for Vietnam AND Korea.  I guess at the time the Gov't thought it would inspire "patriotism" (read "my country right or wrong).  And no one asked the families what they wanted.


That is almost true.  The CEREMONIES were recorded and shown, quite often in news reels.  But the COFFINS and BODIES were not shown.

I remember seeing recently some newsreels from WWII.  One showed the dedication of the cemetary overlooking Omaha Beach.  The other showed the dedication of the cemetary on Iwo Jima.  Both showed the cemetaries and the ceremony, but the bodies were already interred.

I think that you will find that before Vietnam, this was the norm.  And as a veteran, I agree with this.  The purpose of any such ceremony is to remember and honor the person who fell in the line of duty, not to make it into any kind of political football, either in support OR in opposition of the war in question.  I do not care if the number is 1 or 10,000.  Each death is a tragedy, and also a show of how dedicated our servicemen (again I am not PC, I mean ALL military members, male and female alike) are in their duties.

One big difference between the last 2 wars and all wars in the past is that there are NO draftees involved.  Everybody involved knows what they were doing when they volunteered to join.  I applaud each person who has joined in the past 14 years, and am saddened at each loss.  Sadly, I have even seen 3 names of people I served with during my time in the military.  1 I remember clearly, and he was a proud, young, and cocky 19 year old Lance Corporal when I knew him.  Just back from a 6 month tour in Japan, he was looking forward to going to Iraq in 1990 to "show Saddam who's boss".  Ironic, that he lost his life 14 years later, when he returned there.

How about never?

It took almost a YEAR for the photos from D-Day to be published in the US.  In the past, "censorship" was something that the press voluntarily did in order to help keep morale up at home, and to protect the lives of the servicemen.

Just to make another comparison:  More men died in the first 2 hours of D-Day then have died in Afganistan and Iraq COMBINED.  How is that for putting things in perspective?

WWII and Iraq is an all-around bad comparison.  Vietnam is a better one, but Vietnam is not the favored war in modern history.

Mushroom wrote:
That is almost true.  The CEREMONIES were recorded and shown, quite often in news reels.  But the COFFINS and BODIES were not shown.

I remember seeing recently some newsreels from WWII.  One showed the dedication of the cemetary overlooking Omaha Beach.  The other showed the dedication of the cemetary on Iwo Jima.  Both showed the cemetaries and the ceremony, but the bodies were already interred.
It's funny how the Right oscilates between "this is a new kind of war" and references to what we did in WWII.  Also funny how they don't like to mention Korea or Vietnam in the same breath as Iraq.
Just about all coverage of WWII was planned and staged.  It had to be due to restrictions in media technology.
Ever since Vietnam brought us the live action, the government has been trying to put the genie back in the bottle. 

That is almost true.  The CEREMONIES were recorded and shown, quite often in news reels.  But the COFFINS and BODIES were not shown.

I remember seeing recently some newsreels from WWII.  One showed the dedication of the cemetary overlooking Omaha Beach.  The other showed the dedication of the cemetary on Iwo Jima.  Both showed the cemetaries and the ceremony, but the bodies were already interred.

I think that you will find that before Vietnam, this was the norm.  And as a veteran, I agree with this.  The purpose of any such ceremony is to remember and honor the person who fell in the line of duty, not to make it into any kind of political football, either in support OR in opposition of the war in question.  I do not care if the number is 1 or 10,000.  Each death is a tragedy, and also a show of how dedicated our servicemen (again I am not PC, I mean ALL military members, male and female alike) are in their duties.

One big difference between the last 2 wars and all wars in the past is that there are NO draftees involved.  Everybody involved knows what they were doing when they volunteered to join.  I applaud each person who has joined in the past 14 years, and am saddened at each loss.  Sadly, I have even seen 3 names of people I served with during my time in the military.  1 I remember clearly, and he was a proud, young, and cocky 19 year old Lance Corporal when I knew him.  Just back from a 6 month tour in Japan, he was looking forward to going to Iraq in 1990 to "show Saddam who's boss".  Ironic, that he lost his life 14 years later, when he returned there.


Imagree that that the return of our honored dead is not a matter for political capital, but I do believe that it is a matter of public morning and public acknoledgment.  I personally morn for those unrecognized men and women who come home in flag drapped coffins, even though I don't know who, when, and especially why.  It should be a public morning, but our draft dodging and AOL president SHOULD NOT be allows to lead it.  That would dishonor the fallen.