It might be a cynical quote and there is solid reasoning to it, but you know the Christians have an answer for that . . .   :)


I'm still trying to figure out whether or not I'm a Christian, but it really doesn't matter in this case.  The point was that the quote was overly pathetic and whiny in that nature is oh-so bad and out to get us, therefore no god could have created it.

It's as if he thinks he deserves better.  How arrogant.

I'm still trying to figure out whether or not I'm a Christian, but it really doesn't matter in this case.  The point was that the quote was overly pathetic and whiny in that nature is oh-so bad and out to get us, therefore no god could have created it.

It's as if he thinks he deserves better.  How arrogant.


He was saying no BENEVOLENT god could have created it... he was saying he's non-religious, and he doesn't understand how people could believe in a benevolent god, based on the negative traits he's obviously seen in people.

And based on my life experience, I'm inclined to agree.

my voice has cracked, you young...er....youth (?!!?)

Not much  ;D


Cola or Coffee?

And based on my life experience, I'm inclined to agree.


So you're saying you think you deserve better, or are you just agreeing generally with the quote?

Cola or Coffee?


Either!  :D

There's a lot of beauty in the world, too. It all depends on the outlook that you choose to have.

There's a lot of beauty in the world, too. It all depends on the outlook that you choose to have.



I am beautiful!

So you're saying you think you deserve better, or are you just agreeing generally with the quote?


Well, shoot, a lot of people don't deserve the lives their handed. I would take a different life if I had the opportunity.. so, yeah, in some aspects, I do believe I deserve better then what I have.. but, you know, I'm glad for the things that I DO have, where my life is good and priveledged... and all I can really do is work to improve the other areas that I can.

And yes, I generally agree with the quote as well.

I am so beautiful! ;D

There's a lot of beauty in the world, too. It all depends on the outlook that you choose to have.


There's also a lot of ugliness. It depends on where you are and what your situations are which you'll see more of. No doubt, there is both, to deny either is ridiculous. Some people see more beauty, others more pain. And it's easier for someone who sees more beauty (or just less pain) to say there's a loving God then those who really know what ugliness is.

I am so beautiful! ;D


Yes Howard, you are beautiful,
No matter what they say,
Words won't bring you down,
You truly are beautiful,
In every single way,
No, word's can't bring you down,
So we won't bring you down today...  :-* ;D

We are all God's beautiful creatures

There's a lot of beauty in the world, too. It all depends on the outlook that you choose to have.


I think that this Gary Numan character approached the issue from a cynical perspective; it almost seems as if some people want to be miserable, like they take comfort in pitying themselves.

We are all God's beautiful creatures


Some more than others  ;) :D

What would that answer be?  :D


Three simple words . . .

Satan the Devil

Some more than others  ;) :D


Wipe that smug look from your handsome face.  ;D

I think that this Gary Numan character approached the issue from a cynical perspective; it almost seems as if some people want to be miserable, like they take comfort in pitying themselves.


Some people do.. some people just see the world that way, and give their honest opinion. The fact that someone quoted him on it doesn't make him a sympathy whore.. it just makes him a quoted person.

I'm every bit as cynical as that quote, but I didn't say it.. and I know I don't take comfort in self-pity... on the contrary, actually, I hate pity.

Wipe that smug look from your handsome face.  ;D


Bobby, please, I thought we'd agreed not in public!  ;D

I think that this Gary Numan character approached the issue from a cynical perspective; it almost seems as if some people want to be miserable, like they take comfort in pitying themselves.


Yes, the quote is definitely a half-empty look at things but I don't interpret it as how he takes pity on himself. It's how he can't comprehend that a good forgiving loving God (as mentioned in the bible) can condone such wars in his name and produce a natural system where it is 'the strongest who survive' and 'every animal for himself'. The contrast to Mr Numan is hypocritical.

Some more than others  ;) :D


I'm beautiful than you :P

It's how he can't comprehend that a good forgiving loving God (as mentioned in the bible) can condone such wars in his name and produce a natural system where it is 'the strongest who survive' and 'every animal for himself'.


Alright...look at this way.

God creates Earth.  God provides man with many resources for survival (water, food, etc.) and man gives God the finger over and over again.

God does not obliterate man's ass.

Bobby, please, I thought we'd agreed not in public!  ;D


I'll go back into the closet until you need me.  ;D

Phew! The way this debate's going this is going to be the longest thread of all time!  ;D

Yep, nothing like a good mass debate on your birthday  ::)


I'll go back into the closet until you need me.  ;D


Thanks, sweetie  :-* ;D

I'll go back into the closet until you need me.  ;D


locks the closet

I'll go back into the closet until you need me. 


Is it a walk-in closet?

Alright...look at this way.

God creates Earth.  God provides man with many resources for survival (water, food, etc.) and man gives God the finger over and over again.

God does not obliterate man's ass.


Flaw In Assumption That God Exists At All, And That We Are Not Here Due To Natural Selection/Evolution/Whatever Else In The Way of Science.

Your argument there is based on the principle that there IS a God at all.

Alright...look at this way.

God creates Earth.  God provides man with many resources for survival (water, food, etc.) and man gives God the finger over and over again.

God does not obliterate man's ass.


It's certainly the way I have looked at it for so long (part of the 'regime' of my previous religion). These days I am just open to suggestion.  :)

Walk-in-closets = big waste of space.

...and yeah, no idea why I pointed that out.  :D

Is it a walk-in closet?



It probably is.

Is it a walk-in closet?


It'll need to be!  ;D


Walk-in-closets = big waste of space.

...and yeah, no idea why I pointed that out.  :D


Me neither, but cheers anyway!  :D

Your argument there is based on the principle that there IS a God at all.


I was speculating on Numan's argument on his assumption that if God exists, he can't be benevolent, because of all this horror going on in the world.

I assumed that if God exists, he is benevolent, because (well, scroll up).

Don't forget to shut the door

It'll need to be!  ;D

Me neither, but cheers anyway!  :D
Anything to make this thread longer. ...I guess.  :D

I was speculating on Numan's argument on his assumption that if God exists, he can't be benevolent, because of all this horror going on in the world.

I assumed that if God exists, he is benevolent, because (well, scroll up).


Hmm.. I think it might be that if God exists, he just doesn't care. Either that, or he's choosing not to destroy us just so he can watch us blow ourselves to bits for his own amusement. And that would be.. yep: not benevolent.

Anything to make this thread longer. ...I guess.  :D



This thread is always long

Don't forget to shut the door


I'll be there in a second... leave it open!  ;D


Anything to make this thread longer. ...I guess.  :D


Like this pointless reply to your pointless reply to my pointless reply to your pointless comment!  :D

I'll be there in a second... leave it open!  ;D

Like this pointless reply to your pointless reply to my pointless reply to your pointless comment!  :D



keep it open for Bob

Alright...look at this way.

God creates Earth.  God provides man with many resources for survival (water, food, etc.) and man gives God the finger over and over again.

God does not obliterate man's ass.


God gives man free will. Man uses free will to give God the finger and profligate his own agenda. God cannot then interfere because if he did he would be going against mans free will and thus proving himself wrong defeating dogmatic religious principals and making black white.

;)

Flaw In Assumption That God Exists At All, And That We Are Not Here Due To Natural Selection/Evolution/Whatever Else In The Way of Science.

Your argument there is based on the principle that there IS a God at all.


Very true but for Numan's argument to work at all, we have to presume he would accept there is a benevolent God if everything was good - it seems to be the only thing that stops him from believing. He doesn't mention any other form of creation theory.

God gives man free will. Man uses free will to give God the finger and profligate his own agenda. God cannot then interfere because if he did he would be going against mans free will and thus proving himself wrong defeating dogmatic religious principals and making black white.

;)


Ever thought of shortening your name to B Unit?  ;D

Are you referring to Gary Numan?

Are you referring to Gary Numan?


He should've called that song 'CarZ' - more edgy and 'street'

Very true but for Numan's argument to work at all, we have to presume he would accept there is a benevolent God if everything was good - it seems to be the only thing that stops him from believing. He doesn't mention any other form of creation theory.


I see.. I made a mistake in my argument. My bizzle.
*bad*

He should've called that song 'CarZ' - more edgy and 'street'


Why is that?

God gives man free will. Man uses free will to give God the finger and profligate his own agenda. God cannot then interfere because if he did he would be going against mans free will and thus proving himself wrong defeating dogmatic religious principals and making black white.

;)


A very true point indeed.

However, this works for and against Christians. Yes, God is standing back and allowing man to prove he can't rule himself but by doing that he is not showing the proof needed for any logical thinking person to follow him.

Religion is full of these situations where the context can not be proved one way or another.

Why is that?


He has to be hip to da game, dawg, yo. CarZ has crazy urban street, playa. U get me? Word!

He has to be hip to da game, dawg, yo. CarZ has crazy urban street, playa. U get me? Word!


WORD UP

Thanks, sweetie  :-* ;D


Lol.  ;D

A very true point indeed.

However, this works for and against Christians. Yes, God is standing back and allowing man to prove he can't rule himself but by doing that he is not showing the proof needed for any logical thinking person to follow him.

Religion is full of these situations where the context can not be proved one way or another.


Very true.

It's a bit of a catch 22 really isn't it.

Going on the assumption that there is a good he can either interfere but if anything is wrong it is his fault and thus God is wrong which is an impossiblity due to him being God and God being Infallible. However if he gives man Free will he then has to stand back and watch us make a cock up of things and if he interferes he once again creates the premise that he is wrong and thus once again proves himself fallible.

Religion is full of these situations where the context can not be proved one way or another.


That's why I try to avoid it.. plus, I just don't feel that spiritual presence everyone's always ranting and raving about.. and Lord knows I wanted to feel it.. I wanted to believe.. I just couldn't feel it. And that's the big part of it.

God gives man free will. Man uses free will to give God the finger and profligate his own agenda. God cannot then interfere because if he did he would be going against mans free will and thus proving himself wrong defeating dogmatic religious principals and making black white.


This version of Christianity is called Arminianism.  You see, there are two main types of Protestantism, Arminianism and Calvinism.  Arminianism asserts that everybody is totally in charge of their own life while Calvinism asserts that God foreordains everything that happens, which is ultimately for his righteous purpose.  I don't understand it all myself; I don't understand how people are responsible for their decisions when God makes everything happen, but I just wanted to make sure you knew that that "free will" is not unanimously existent in the Christian community.

This version of Christianity is called Arminianism.  You see, there are two main types of Protestantism, Arminianism and Calvinism.  Arminianism asserts that everybody is totally in charge of their own life while Calvinism asserts that God foreordains everything that happens, which is ultimately for his righteous purpose.  I don't understand it all myself; I don't understand how people are responsible for their decisions when God makes everything happen, but I just wanted to make sure you knew that that "free will" is not unanimously existent in the Christian community.


I didn't actually know that. Being a Catholic myself i suppose that could explain it.

I have a question for you YWN, you definatley seem to know your shizzle on this matter.

Eeven though the Mack himself Jesus 'Tap dancin' Christ told St Pete to build his church on this Rock etc.. and that Church was the Catholic church.. Why do many christian groups claim Catholics are not part of Christianity?

Very true.

It's a bit of a catch 22 really isn't it.

In my cynical view of religion (being brought up in it). I think religion likes it that way.

Going on the assumption that there is a good he can either interfere but if anything is wrong it is his fault and thus God is wrong which is an impossiblity due to him being God and God being Infallible. However if he gives man Free will he then has to stand back and watch us make a cock up of things and if he interferes he once again creates the premise that he is wrong and thus once again proves himself fallible.


What is interesting is this contradiction:

Deuteronomy 32:4 (King James Version)

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Yet . . .

Exodus 34:14 (King James Version)

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Now the way I see it. If God is jealous, does that make him perfect? ???

I see.. I made a mistake in my argument. My bizzle.
*bad*


No probs.  :)

That's why I try to avoid it.. plus, I just don't feel that spiritual presence everyone's always ranting and raving about.. and Lord knows I wanted to feel it.. I wanted to believe.. I just couldn't feel it. And that's the big part of it.


You and me both, man.

My uncle said it best; "It's in my head but not in my heart."

Even though the Mack himself Jesus 'Tap dancin' Christ told St Pete to build his church on this Rock etc.. and that Church was the Catholic church.. Why do many christian groups claim Catholics are not part of Christianity?


I am not familiar with this passage.

Of course, these Christian groups are referring to the modern Catholic church, not the original Christian church which is claimed to be Catholic.

Alright...  To tell the truth, Andy, I'm not exactly a Christian.  Or maybe I am, on and off.  I'm such an intellectual on such matters, I never bother to pray; I think I can get everything I need to know by cold hard fact and reasoning.  I wish I wasn't this way.  At one point, I believed it all had to be true because of the "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" paradox (don't know if you're familar with that), but then the question of whether Jesus even existed or not (could it be a stretched out legend of half-truth?) was brought up and it threw me completely off track.

But even if I'm a pagan, I can see some major flaws in the Catholic church right now.  They pray to the Virgin Mary, who was never said in Scripture to be divine, they kneel to crucifixes even though idolatry is prohibited (the golden calf was actually supposed to depict Yahweh; He was upset because they were practicing idolatry, not because they were worshiping another god), and the pope is a flawed human being just like the rest of us, but they believe his word is as good as the Bible's.

Maybe these things are not consistent with your beliefs, but what I'm talking about is this official Vatican stuff.

You and me both, man.

My uncle said it best; "It's in my head but not in my heart."


That's a really good way to put it.. And eventually, it left my head even.. when it's out of my heart, I started questioning more and more.

Now the way I see it. If God is jealous, does that make him perfect? ???


There is such a thing as righteous jealousy. 

IAlright...  To tell the truth, Andy, I'm not exactly a Christian.  Or maybe I am, on and off.  I'm such an intellectual on such matters, I never bother to pray; I think I can get everything I need to know by cold hard fact and reasoning.  I wish I wasn't this way.  At one point, I believed it all had to be true because of the "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" paradox (don't know if you're familar with that), but then the question of whether Jesus even existed or not (could it be a stretched out legend of half-truth?) was brought up and it threw me completely off track.


Could you tell us more about this 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' paradox?  :)

But even if I'm a pagan, I can see some major flaws in the Catholic church right now.  They pray to the Virgin Mary, who was never said in Scripture to be divine, they kneel to crucifixes even though idolatry is prohibited (the golden calf was actually supposed to depict Yahweh; He was upset because they were practicing idolatry, not because they were worshiping another god), and the pope is a flawed human being just like the rest of us, but they believe his word is as good as the Bible's.

This is an excellent point. The virgin Mary has been elevated from being the vessel to carrying the only perfect man ever to being an instrument of worship. In some ways, she seems more important to the Catholic Church than Jesus himself!

As for the pope, what is interesting is the Jehovah's Witnesses's (what I was brought up in) have a similar structure called 'The Governing Body' which dictates bible reasoning and how their followers should act in accordance with God's will. The only difference being is that The Pope is one person and The Governing Body is a group of people but both do the same job ('act' as a channel from God to it's followers) and the effect is the same - an instrument to control the masses.

*modified*  :)

There is such a thing as righteous jealousy. 


That seems like an oxymoron to me.  ???

That seems like an oxymoron to me.  ???


Envy is prohibited in the Bible, not jealousy.  It is a common misunderstanding that they are the same thing.

Envy is desperately wanting something that belongs to someone else.

Jealousy is having disdain for someone giving someone else something they should be giving to you.

That seems like an oxymoron to me.  ???


Envy is prohibited in the Bible, not jealousy.  It is a common misunderstanding that they are the same thing.

Envy is desperately wanting something that belongs to someone else.

Jealousy is not liking that someone is giving someone else something they should be giving to you.

Envy is prohibited in the Bible, not jealousy.  It is a common misunderstanding that they are the same thing.

Envy is desperately wanting something that belongs to someone else.

Jealousy is not liking that someone is giving someone else something they should be giving to you.


Sounds like coveting either way.

That's a really good way to put it.. And eventually, it left my head even.. when it's out of my heart, I started questioning more and more.


The problem being is that, if you follow the religious context, you will never be truly happy. You are given the choice of blind faith forever or free thought until you recieve punishment and death. In my religion, we were taught that the good live on a paradise earth forever after Armageddon (and this opens up a can of paradox in itself) and I have often joked that I wouldn't want to spend forever with most of the people I worshipped with.  ;D

Yes...there are many narrow minded and misinformed Christian denominations.

Sounds like coveting either way.


I am in agreement. I have looked at a few definitions of the word 'jealousy' on the web (not wishing to be pedantic) but the word envy is used to help describe it.

Yes...there are many narrow minded and misinformed Christian denominations.


If only it was just the christian denominations we have to worry about.  ;D

I am in agreement. I have looked at a few definitions of the word 'jealousy' on the web (not wishing to be pedantic) but the word envy is used to help describe it.


Also remember that the Bible was not written in English.  It was written in several different languages (Greek, Hebrew, Sumerian, etc.) and translated to English.  So it was translated into the English word "jealousy", but the original text could have been a slightly different meaning.

What it did mean, though, is that God does not tolerate people worshiping other gods.

Can you smell what the Rock is cooking?

Can you smell what the Rock is cooking?


.. COOKIES?  :D

.. COOKIES?  :D


A bad movie?

A bad movie?



...I don't get it.

...I don't get it.


PENIS!

PENIS!



You're A Penis

Also remember that the Bible was not written in English.  It was written in several different languages (Greek, Hebrew, Sumerian, etc.) and translated to English.  So it was translated into the English word "jealousy", but the original text could have been a slightly different meaning.


That is very true. But, whichever way you look at it, to translate the word as jealous does not throw a positive perspective on what is supposed to be a perfect God.

What it did mean, though, is that God does not tolerate people worshiping other gods.

If that is the case then why do we have so many different forms of Christianity? If every Christian denomination is saying they are the true religion, then they are also saying the other Christian denominations are false. If they are all true, it defeats the objective in having different Christian denominations in the first place. If the rest are false that means everybody else is worshipping a false God within the same bracket - therefore a large selection are practising idolatory (and the Catholics do more of that than probably any other Christian denomination) even within.

PENIS!


I don't get that but I won't be rude in presuming it's not funny because it may be an inside joke . . .  ;) ;D