I've been thinking about this concept for quite some time.  

I thought about bumping this thread: http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=36572.15

Or maybe adding something to one of these: http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=40124.0 , http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=40280.0 , http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=40228.15

But then I thought, naw, I'll just start a whole new one.

I just have to wonder if marriage is a realistic endeavor anymore.  I think it's a ridiculous instiution, personally.  The only reason I ever married my husband was so that we could combine and manage our finances more easily.  But we both would have been content living together.  Yes, I realize that the following rant is going to make me sound like a complete hypocrite for being married.  What can I say?  I suck.

Maybe some people want that little piece of paper that says "I'm yours and your mine."  Couldn't they just write each other a note or something?  I just don't understand it. *Warning: Tangent -  And the whole concept of people being against gay marriage is odd to me too.  I understand why gay people want the right to marry under the current system.  There are many advantages, obviously.  So why can't you just let them get married?  Seriously.  Why do you have to be so mean?  Because at the end of the day, that's all it is.  The powers that be, are just mean a-holes. *End Tangent*

Anyway, I'm starting to wonder if marriage itself starting to wither away.  All you ever hear about are stars and politians getting caught in affair after affair after affair.  It never seems to end.  And these men are all so villianized, but I have to wonder, do they know something that the rest of us don't?  

Is all of the bull crap going on our fault, or is it marriage's fault?

Were we ever supposed to marry one another in the first place?

I think that it might be completely natural for some people.  You see people all the time that have been married for 60 years, and they are blissfully happy and in love for all of those years, and that's awesome.  That works for them.  But it most certainly isn't for all of us.  And I wonder if the couple married for 60 years is just a happy accident, and the rest of us are torturing ourselves, thinking that we need to find one perfect person and force it to work at all costs FOREVER, or we are not complete human beings.  When in reality, love isn't like that at all.  At least to me it isn't.

not that I can speak on the subject cuz I am not, nor have I ever wanted to be, married.... but I agree- a) with your tangent... denying marriage to all equally is plain mean...
Whoopi has the best argument I've ever heard for it... "if you are opposed to gay marriage then don't marry anyone of the same sex".... there- problem solved...now can we get back to letting everyone else have their rights too?

having said that - I never understood infidelity- seems to me people use "moment of weakness" as an excuse....I mean how hard is it to say I love this person and I want to stay faithful to them... or I don't love this person anymore---- if that's the case get out of the relationship... but this whole having your cake and eating it tooo- that just pisses me off... what makes you so special that you don't have to honor your commitment? and to those people who cheat so then they think their partner is cheating.... get over yourself...if that's the case I say one good turn deserves another...  :P

the other thing I dont get is the whole killing your spouse because you want out of the relationship.....when did this become an option? honestly- murder is a bigger failure than divorce. and come on... for those wives who mysteriously disappear... Hey guys... if your wife "leaves" you it makes you look like a loser who couldn't keep her so, you know, claiming you were abandoned meant she didn't want to be with you-- basically you killed her, disappeared her, and still made yourself look bad....  I have eight words of advice....
Just get the friggin' divorce already will ya!?!


oh I'm sorry ash....what was the question? Is marriage natural? I don't know seems like its been done forever- so I guess so but perhaps the whole institution needs a little reevaluation!  :D

Maybe I should have asked if monogamy was realistic instead of marriage. 

When marriage first started way back before the dark ages, it was a means of controlling women. First the woman was under the care of her father and then transferred to her husband. Since women have found their independence, marriage has taken on a new meaning. We were all brought up with fairy tales how they got married and lived happily ever after. I think many people seek to find that "happily ever after"-without realizing who they are marrying. I know I did the first time around. I was so quick to have that "happily ever after" that I married the wrong person at the wrong time for all the wrong reasons. I knew him only 4 months before we got married.  :o :o :o  Of course the marriage only lasted 6 years. It should have ended sooner but I didn't want to admit that I made a mistake.

And that is the problem I see with many marriages-marrying the WRONG person. I think people are too quick to the get married before REALLY knowing who they are marrying. Carlos & I knew each other 4 years before I moved in with him. Then we lived together for 5 years before we got married. Did we HAVE to get married? No, of course not. But I REALLY wanted to marry him for many reasons. I wanted his name. Ok, for those of you who actually know our last name, it is not that great of a last name and there could be many, many jokes about it. But, I really hated the last name I was using (which was my ex-husband's name). I could have gone back to maiden name which the thought had crossed my mind several hundred times from the time my first marriage ended until the time my second marriage started. It is nice to have the same last name as the person you live with. What Carlos' daughters did when they got married was create a new last name with their husbands. That way she isn't taking his name and he isn't taking her name. The funny thing is, the two who did that are no longer married to those people and the guys went back to their "maiden" names while the women kept the names they created.

There are a lot of bennies to being married. I was added to Carlos' health care insurance. Carlos got a military "dependent" ID card which gives him the privilege of shopping on any base (tax free). We each got something when we got married.

I know that I married the right person at the right time for all the right reasons this time. And it gave us the excuse to put on a GREAT party.  :D ;D ;D ;D




Cat
 

having said that - I never understood infidelity- seems to me people use "moment of weakness" as an excuse....I mean how hard is it to say I love this person and I want to stay faithful to them... or I don't love this person anymore---- if that's the case get out of the relationship... but this whole having your cake and eating it tooo- that just pisses me off... what makes you so special that you don't have to honor your commitment? and to those people who cheat so then they think their partner is cheating.... get over yourself...if that's the case I say one good turn deserves another...   :P


From what I understand, I think one of the problems with marriage is that it is too easy to divorce which kind of defeats the seriousness of committing to someone.

I'm feeling that most celebrity marriages are a means of making business agreements so I am not surprised both part ways when they have used each other.

Another problem I believe is what I call 'settling' (I did this myself) and that is when a person accepts their second, third or even their tenth choice for marriage. Some enter a relationship merely because they think it is better than being single and some submit to marriage when they believe they can't get anyone better. These grounds are awful for marriage which requires emotional, mental and physical commitment.

Me personally, I realise this and understand that nothing but the woman I want is good enough (probably why I am still single but that's okay). In the long run it is better than being with someone I don't.

As for infidelity, if two people are emotionally, physically and mentally connected with each other than that would never be an issue.

I think both marriage and monogamy are very realistic.  Like Cat said, you have to find the right person first and not rush into it.  I rushed and was divorced within the year.  I also agree that "happily ever after" is unrealistic.  It takes work from both sides of the marriage.  If only one is willing to work on it then it won't work out. 

As for the politicians and actors etc with failed marriages or infidelities...I don't think it happens more than it used to, it is just seems like now people think it is news, like the Don Henley song "Dirty Laundry" says, we love dirty laundry.  They don't report on the marriages that last or have the major problems because people wouldn't tune in to watch.  It's all about the ratings.

  My desire never to be emotionally accountable has led me to right here where I am. With a job that eats up 50% of my waking life and a huge appetite for surface things to fill up the remaining 50%.  My plan has always been to stay busy and unattached.  Free to build my sand castles all the live long day...

  Is the problem marriage or is it our misunderstanding of it?  Sacrifice of self for the progress of the group is not a new concept.  There just has to be balance. Disappearing into someone else is never a good thing.  But you can't be married and remain autonomous.  It doesn't work that way...

Maybe I should have asked if monogamy was realistic instead of marriage. 


;D 

  I also agree that "happily ever after" is unrealistic.  It takes work from both sides of the marriage.  If only one is willing to work on it then it won't work out. 



you're right I always hear that for most people getting married....well most brides anyway....that their focus is on the wedding itself. Everyone seems to put all their energy into the big day and really not give much thought (or have much left) for what comes next.  I think we need to stop these huge endeavors and have people approach the marriage like its work not like its some fantastical event... you are going to have good days and bad days... you are going to love each other but sometimes you're really going to hate each other too... you have to learn how to communicate- how to be there for each other... how to determine what the other needs....how to learn how to give of yourself without losing yourself.... it's a long hard process and the ones who last are the one's who are willing to put forth the effort.

Yes.  I love my wife.  I didn't marry her for reasons of financial ease or to get a piece of paper.  I love her.  I hope we're one of the couples that last.  So far so good :) We both want and are trying to start a family.  I hope that happens too.  I was married once before.  I firmly believe my first wife wanted out so she did everything short of cheating on me to push me away.  I wasn't terribly invested emotionally in many of my relationships following - it made things easier when those relationships ended.

The media loves to sensationalize celebrity infidelity - I don't think I've heard many stories about a non-married celebrities' one-night stands and hooker romps, because it's not as interesting to the general public.

Anyway, I'm hella happy and have been for quite some time.  :)  Ever after?  It could happen.  :D

Yes.  I love my wife.  I didn't marry her for reasons of financial ease or to get a piece of paper.  I love her.  I hope we're one of the couples that last.  So far so good :) We both want and are trying to start a family.  I hope that happens too.  I was married once before.  I firmly believe my first wife wanted out so she did everything short of cheating on me to push me away.  I wasn't terribly invested emotionally in many of my relationships following - it made things easier when those relationships ended.

The media loves to sensationalize celebrity infidelity - I don't think I've heard many stories about a non-married celebrities' one-night stands and hooker romps, because it's not as interesting to the general public.

Anyway, I'm hella happy and have been for quite some time.   :)  Ever after?  It could happen.  :D





Aw midas that's so sweet....rare  ;) -  but sweet!  :)

I have heard how hard marriage is. I admit that my first marriage was hard-very hard-too hard actually which is why it didn't last. But my marriage to Carlos is just so easy. Yeah, we have our arguments. If you live under the same roof with someone-doesn't matter what kind of relationship you have-siblings, friends, mother/daughter, etc. etc, you ARE going to have disagreements. It is how you work through those disagreements that make or break a relationship. Carlos & I usually work through our disagreements because he finally realizes that I was right.  ;) :D ;D ;D ;D  We usually get into a BIG one about twice a year or so-and a few little ones from time to time. Otherwise, living with him is just so easy.



Cat

When marriage first started way back before the dark ages, it was a means of controlling women. First the woman was under the care of her father and then transferred to her husband. .

Cat



This is only partially true.  If existing gatherer/hunter societies are an indication, people "married", ie pair bonded in order to care for their kids since humans came into being.  Control only became an issue with the invention of private property.  Before that, it is likely that in most cases equality, if not female dominance in marriage was the rule.  Which is not to say that these unions were considered permanent.  That surely varied from group to group.

Statistically, my marriage should have been over LONG ago.  Hubby and I got married after dating only 6 months (although we had known each other for a couple of years prior to that), and only when we did because I was pregnant.  We hadn't even really talked about it before then.  In fact, people were so sure it WASN'T going to work, some of them were taking bets at the reception on how long it was going to last....the most optimistic was my current best friend who gave us 3 years.  15 years later, we're the only ones still married!  It hasn't always been easy and I'll admit, there have been times when I've been ready to strangle him, but the thought of spending the rest of my life WITHOUT him was 100x worse than the thought of spending the rest of my life WITH him.

Statistically, my marriage should have been over LONG ago.  Hubby and I got married after dating only 6 months (although we had known each other for a couple of years prior to that), and only when we did because I was pregnant.  We hadn't even really talked about it before then.  In fact, people were so sure it WASN'T going to work, some of them were taking bets at the reception on how long it was going to last....the most optimistic was my current best friend who gave us 3 years.  15 years later, we're the only ones still married!  It hasn't always been easy and I'll admit, there have been times when I've been ready to strangle him, but the thought of spending the rest of my life WITHOUT him was 100x worse than the thought of spending the rest of my life WITH him.



With my first marriage, people did the same thing. There was only ONE person I recall who gave me any encouragement-my sister's mother-in-law (or my brother-in-law's mother-however you want to say it). She said that sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. In my case, it didn't work. I am glad that yours have worked out for this long-and I hope it continues.



Cat

Humans are serial monogamists.

We (male or female) meet an attractive mate.  The hormones kick into overdrive for a couple of years and we're off-the-deep-end in love.  That couple-of-years is just long enough to mate a few times, reproduce, get through 9 months of the female's gestational period, and spend a year or so after birth to see the offspring to the point of weaning/viability.  What a shocking evolutionary coincidence.  (Females?  Their preference for male facial types changes as a function of their monthly fertility cycles.  Males?  Their facial type is, loosely speaking, a function of overall testosterone levels determined by their genetic makeup.  Another shocking evolutionary coincidence...)

The interesting question is how some couples, my parents included, made it past that point; transitioning from oxytocin to the other chemicals that strengthen and reinforce the pair-bonding phenomenon.  That one I still don't fully understand.  I'm just not willing to invest my life in researching it, but I still peruse the literature every few years to see how much progress we've made at decoding it.  It's all just chemicals, we just haven't figured it out yet.

But as one who never wanted kids (even when he did play the mating game), once I understood how the chemicals worked, I stopped playing.  Took me about 10-15 years to kick my brain's oxytocin habit and get back to my old high of engineering/gaming-induced dopamine/norepinephrine rushes.  (Dopamine and norepinepherine are ever-present, and can be modulated with selective application of caffeine and alcohol, and as a former love-junkie, that's as hard as I want my drugs to get anymore.)

Which is a roundabout way to get back the whole marriage thing:  

1) If you want kids, or your significant other already has kids, marry 'em.  The legal handcuffs'll tide you over while you work things out.  (And to minimize those rough times, just keep making time to keep each other's brains well-supplied with that oxytocin!)  
2) If you don't want kids, date if you want, have whatever relationships you want, but avoid marriage, as the only handcuffs you'll have any use for are the ones in the bedroom.  (...or whatever it is that you do to keep each other's brains well-saturated with oxytocin ;)
3) If you're bad enough at the social game that oxytocin dosing is an intermittent thing at best, the world's a pretty big arcade -- why not just walk away from thegame and try another?  Marriage?  Dating?  For me, the only winning move is not to play.

Humans are serial monogamists.

We (male or female) meet an attractive mate.  The hormones kick into overdrive for a couple of years and we're off-the-deep-end in love.  That couple-of-years is just long enough to mate a few times, reproduce, get through 9 months of the female's gestational period, and spend a year or so after birth to see the offspring to the point of weaning/viability.  What a shocking evolutionary coincidence.  (Females?  Their preference for male facial types changes as a function of their monthly fertility cycles.  Males?  Their facial type is, loosely speaking, a function of overall testosterone levels determined by their genetic makeup.  Another shocking evolutionary coincidence...)

The interesting question is how some couples, my parents included, made it past that point; transitioning from oxytocin to the other chemicals that strengthen and reinforce the pair-bonding phenomenon.  That one I still don't fully understand.  I'm just not willing to invest my life in researching it, but I still peruse the literature every few years to see how much progress we've made at decoding it.  It's all just chemicals, we just haven't figured it out yet.

But as one who never wanted kids (even when he did play the mating game), once I understood how the chemicals worked, I stopped playing.  Took me about 10-15 years to kick my brain's oxytocin habit and get back to my old high of engineering/gaming-induced dopamine/norepinephrine rushes.  (Dopamine and norepinepherine are ever-present, and can be modulated with selective application of caffeine and alcohol, and as a former love-junkie, that's as hard as I want my drugs to get anymore.)

Which is a roundabout way to get back the whole marriage thing:  

1) If you want kids, or your significant other already has kids, marry 'em.  The legal handcuffs'll tide you over while you work things out.  (And to minimize those rough times, just keep making time to keep each other's brains well-supplied with that oxytocin!)  
2) If you don't want kids, date if you want, have whatever relationships you want, but avoid marriage, as the only handcuffs you'll have any use for are the ones in the bedroom.  (...or whatever it is that you do to keep each other's brains well-saturated with oxytocin ;)
3) If you're bad enough at the social game that oxytocin dosing is an intermittent thing at best, the world's a pretty big arcade -- why not just walk away from thegame and try another?  Marriage?  Dating?  For me, the only winning move is not to play.



Chemistry does have a lot to do with it. What makes someone fall in love with another? There isn't a formula that says that this person will fall in love with that person because of x,y, or z. It is ALL chemistry-something that we can't see or even map out. My chemistry with Carlos' creates a spontaneous combustion. But together we have the chemistry needed to make this relationship last. Unfortunately, there are too many people out there who marry without having that chemistry.



Cat 

I'm of the opinion that one should take the time to find out if a person is really "the one" in the first place. If not, then neither person has to endure a messy breakup/divorce, etc. Why jump into a marriage if it's not right for either person?
Assuming both parties are of like mind, then a willingness to compromise and communicate is key to the success of any relationship. If both people are honest with one another and commited to the venture, then divorce will never have to be considered as an option. That probably sounds oversimplified to some some here, but it's how I've approached my marriage from the start. It's not about whether the experience is "perfect", it's about working things out and not being unnecessarily stubborn. That's all.

Yes, I do believe marriage is realistic...  but is it for everyone????  That I am not so sure of, some people are continuous players, some are anti-social, and some just have no desire either way (and none of these are bad things, I might add - they make the world go round).  Yes gay couples should also be allowed to marry (in fact, I live in one of the few states that allows it) they have every reason to be legally (as well as emotionally) devoted and bound to one another, as the next person. 

What has changed is the fact that everyone thinks it is "easy."  And Cat I know you believe it is easy, but without the "work" your first marriage put you through - would you have learned the art of compromise and passion and to be happy with what we have???  So many people marry for the wrong reasons (he has a good pay check, she's a great trophy, I want to have a big wedding and show off to everyone, I want the American Dream, he has a house and land, aren't all farmers rich, she has got a career, my time clock is ticking and I need a mate for children, and on and on the list goes).  And soo many people believe (and I am as guilty as the next) that they need the euphoric, butterflies and heart skipping a beat, "falling in love" feeling all the time.  Where in fact, that feeling dulls, comes in waves, or disappears altogether if it isn't nurtured.  And it is the nurturing that is work.  When we sit in a false sense of comfort and contentment, when we do not show what the other means to us, when one doesn't think romance is necessary - this is when someone get's bored.  Both parties have to work to ensure their own happiness, as well as ensure the others happiness.  We have to bend and flex.  Too many people are resistant to this idea.  SO many still feel that only one party make's the decisions (and THIS IDEA in today's society is completely wrong).  I have friends who are surprised that I can got to eat, go out, or go away without my husband (well my husband would be jealous - WHY????  I have never done anything he should be jealous about).  I have my own needs and wants, he has his (yes I would rather him go to strip club than go golfing - a whole lot less time spent at the first; and who cares, it's a strip club not a whore house, and I know he's coming home) and we can each do our own thing, IN ADDITION TOO doing our thing together. 

Is it more of a problem that WE as a society always want more and we live in a world of "throw it away and get new" syndrome, so we keep looking.  I want that butterflies and heart skipping a beat feeling (so I find another romance). I want more romance, I want a better looking spouse, I deserve more.  I deserve this great feeling, I deserve to be able to pick up and move to this new job, the kids and spouse will come with if they want - or if not, so what.  I will find another....  Give me what I want, or I will get rid of you? 

Is divorce too easy?  Is marriage too easy???  Is it necessary (I know several couples who have been living with each other for 10+ years)?  I really believe it is a person's choice.  I love my husband, and we have been married for 10 years.  We only dated 6 months before we got engaged (but we were also 27 and 28 years old, and had done the "dating" seen) and we were married 10 weeks later - NO BABY ON THE WAY. But it is work, sometimes good, sometimes bad... but work none the same.  Life is stressful, and sometime we take it out on those closest too us (it is safer) - terrible but true.  Add Children, and work stress and you have a big enough muddle of crappiness to get into arguements about.  But it is how they are worked through that matters.  I love my husband, and even in my darkest darks, I have known that he is my world - and I am his - we just have to remind each other of this from time to time.


Anywho - these are my random thoughts on the subject (forgive me for I am not going to re-read through this to proofread).

I'm of the opinion that one should take the time to find out if a person is really "the one" in the first place. If not, then neither person has to endure a messy breakup/divorce, etc. Why jump into a marriage if it's not right for either person?
Assuming both parties are of like mind, then a willingness to compromise and communicate is key to the success of any relationship. If both people are honest with one another and commited to the venture, then divorce will never have to be considered as an option. That probably sounds oversimplified to some some here, but it's how I've approached my marriage from the start. It's not about whether the experience is "perfect", it's about working things out and not being unnecessarily stubborn. That's all.



but you're not taking to account how people evolve over the years....someone at 18. 20. 24 may have given lots of thought to the marriage and thought this is totally the person for me! but 20 years down the road people change and they are no longer suited for each other.

but you're not taking to account how people evolve over the years....someone at 18. 20. 24 may have given lots of thought to the marriage and thought this is totally the person for me! but 20 years down the road people change and they are no longer suited for each other.
true - but what made them love each other in the first place???  People's core feelings, usually do not evolve that much in adulthood - or was it just a wrong reason's to get married ???

Yes, I do believe marriage is realistic...  but is it for everyone????  That I am not so sure of, some people are continuous players, some are anti-social, and some just have no desire either way (and none of these are bad things, I might add - they make the world go round).  Yes gay couples should also be allowed to marry (in fact, I live in one of the few states that allows it) they have every reason to be legally (as well as emotionally) devoted and bound to one another, as the next person. 

What has changed is the fact that everyone thinks it is "easy."  And Cat I know you believe it is easy, but without the "work" your first marriage put you through - would you have learned the art of compromise and passion and to be happy with what we have???  So many people marry for the wrong reasons (he has a good pay check, she's a great trophy, I want to have a big wedding and show off to everyone, I want the American Dream, he has a house and land, aren't all farmers rich, she has got a career, my time clock is ticking and I need a mate for children, and on and on the list goes).  And soo many people believe (and I am as guilty as the next) that they need the euphoric, butterflies and heart skipping a beat, "falling in love" feeling all the time.  Where in fact, that feeling dulls, comes in waves, or disappears altogether if it isn't nurtured.  And it is the nurturing that is work.  When we sit in a false sense of comfort and contentment, when we do not show what the other means to us, when one doesn't think romance is necessary - this is when someone get's bored.  Both parties have to work to ensure their own happiness, as well as ensure the others happiness.  We have to bend and flex.  Too many people are resistant to this idea.  SO many still feel that only one party make's the decisions (and THIS IDEA in today's society is completely wrong).  I have friends who are surprised that I can got to eat, go out, or go away without my husband (well my husband would be jealous - WHY????  I have never done anything he should be jealous about).  I have my own needs and wants, he has his (yes I would rather him go to strip club than go golfing - a whole lot less time spent at the first; and who cares, it's a strip club not a whore house, and I know he's coming home) and we can each do our own thing, IN ADDITION TOO doing our thing together. 

Is it more of a problem that WE as a society always want more and we live in a world of "throw it away and get new" syndrome, so we keep looking.  I want that butterflies and heart skipping a beat feeling (so I find another romance). I want more romance, I want a better looking spouse, I deserve more.  I deserve this great feeling, I deserve to be able to pick up and move to this new job, the kids and spouse will come with if they want - or if not, so what.  I will find another....  Give me what I want, or I will get rid of you? 

Is divorce too easy?  Is marriage too easy???  Is it necessary (I know several couples who have been living with each other for 10+ years)?  I really believe it is a person's choice.  I love my husband, and we have been married for 10 years.  We only dated 6 months before we got engaged (but we were also 27 and 28 years old, and had done the "dating" seen) and we were married 10 weeks later - NO BABY ON THE WAY. But it is work, sometimes good, sometimes bad... but work none the same.  Life is stressful, and sometime we take it out on those closest too us (it is safer) - terrible but true.  Add Children, and work stress and you have a big enough muddle of crappiness to get into arguements about.  But it is how they are worked through that matters.  I love my husband, and even in my darkest darks, I have known that he is my world - and I am his - we just have to remind each other of this from time to time.


Anywho - these are my random thoughts on the subject (forgive me for I am not going to re-read through this to proofread).



You are so right. As for me, I did say that marriage for me with Charlie is easy but that is because Charlie & I are so compatible and 9 times out of 10 we are on the same page. There is that 10th time when things can be trying but we muddle through. We have reached a place where one of us will say one word or so and the other will know what was going to be said.



Cat

You are so right. As for me, I did say that marriage for me with Charlie is easy but that is because Charlie & I are so compatible and 9 times out of 10 we are on the same page. There is that 10th time when things can be trying but we muddle through. We have reached a place where one of us will say one word or so and the other will know what was going to be said.



Cat
Must be a good place to be in 8)  We all have to learn to listen, learn and not to take the other for granted.

true - but what made them love each other in the first place???  People's core feelings, usually do not evolve that much in adulthood - or was it just a wrong reason's to get married ???


I disagree... I know plenty of people who grew apart as they grew older...they developed different interests and eventually wanted different things- had different priorities... they loved each other once but lost the love they had because they were no longer the same people they were when they met.

I disagree... I know plenty of people who grew apart as they grew older...they developed different interests and eventually wanted different things- had different priorities... they loved each other once but lost the love they had because they were no longer the same people they were when they met.
Forgive me - devil's advocate???  Priorities - isn't a marriage a priority?  Shouldn't it be?  How about a family, children and such?  I have seen several cases where people choose their own priorities over that of their families (children and parents and such) or their spouse.  If we made a commitment, isn't it our job to keep that commitment???






On the other hand, I do know of couples who mutually grown apart.  What I am resistant to, is the one day one side of the relationship decides they are through (with no warning, to the other half).  i.e.  I love someonelse, I want something else, etc....  Selfishness is one of those things that someone decide's to give up when they become a couple....

Forgive me - devil's advocate???  Priorities - isn't a marriage a priority?  Shouldn't it be?  How about a family, children and such?  I have seen several cases where people choose their own priorities over that of their families (children and parents and such) or their spouse.  If we made a commitment, isn't it our job to keep that commitment???






On the other hand, I do know of couples who mutually grown apart.  What I am resistant to, is the one day one side of the relationship decides they are through (with no warning, to the other half).  i.e.  I love someonelse, I want something else, etc....  Selfishness is one of those things that someone decide's to give up when they become a couple....



I think the worst thing a couple can do is stay together for the children... if the marriage no longer works because they are going in two different directions in life then why stick it out "for the sake of the children".  Kids are smarter than they are given credit...and they are resilient...sure divorce isn't easy but they'll bounce back....what won't heal is the realization that mommy (or daddy) spent their life being miserable just for them...  then the cycle begins the kids get into a marriage that turns loveless over time but stick in it because that's what they they think they have to do.....or because they think they don't deserve any better... 

I think the worst thing a couple can do is stay together for the children... if the marriage no longer works because they are going in two different directions in life then why stick it out "for the sake of the children".  Kids are smarter than they are given credit...and they are resilient...sure divorce isn't easy but they'll bounce back....what won't heal is the realization that mommy (or daddy) spent their life being miserable just for them...   then the cycle begins the kids get into a marriage that turns loveless over time but stick in it because that's what they they think they have to do.....or because they think they don't deserve any better...  
Or in my case, I had a dad that left and I never saw him again from the time I was 7 till the time he died when I was 15.  Nope my mother and him never divorced.  I wished maybe he had enough guts and caring to not be so selfish and stick it out...  Children are not always as resilient as everyone thinks they are.  They care, they feel.  And so what does someone learn from this - always go after what you want, to hell with your responsibilities...and so the cycle begins.

Find what you cared about in the first place, or find a way to make yourself happy.  No do not stay in an abusive relationship - but this idea that we all are happy all the time, unless we want that to happen and make it so, is never a reality

Just sayin.  It is what it is and that's all that it is.  There are consequences to all of our actions

Or in my case, I had a dad that left and I never saw him again from the time I was 7 till the time he died when I was 15.  Nope my mother and him never divorced.  I wished maybe he had enough guts and caring to not be so selfish and stick it out...  Children are not always as resilient as everyone thinks they are.  They care, they feel.  And so what does someone learn from this - always go after what you want, to hell with your responsibilities...and so the cycle begins.

Find what you cared about in the first place, or find a way to make yourself happy.  No do not stay in an abusive relationship - but this idea that we all are happy all the time, unless we make that

Just sayin.  It is what it is and that's all that it is.  There are consequences to all of our actions


What your dad did was wrong... and I'm not talking about abandonment...no one should abandon their kids. But I still don't think people should stay in a marriage that's not working- just my opinion... I don't plan on marrying so I don't have to worry about nor am I an expert or anything... but from this vantage point it seems that many people plan a wedding not  a marriage so when things change they are not prepared... Im sure most people are in love when they wed so who can say if they married for the right or wrong reasons.

I also know that I am not the same the person I was 20 years ago. I have let people go from my life because we went in different directions...Its not to say I didn't or don't care for them but we just arent the same people now that we were then... and feel its the same in marriages.

What your dad did was wrong... and I'm not talking about abandonment...no one should abandon their kids. But I still don't think people should stay in a marriage that's not working- just my opinion... I don't plan on marrying so I don't have to worry about nor am I an expert or anything... but from this vantage point it seems that many people plan a wedding not  a marriage so when things change they are not prepared... Im sure most people are in love when they wed so who can say if they married for the right or wrong reasons.

I also know that I am not the same the person I was 20 years ago. I have let people go from my life because we went in different directions...Its not to say I didn't or don't care for them but we just arent the same people now that we were then... and feel its the same in marriages.


But marriage is supposed to be "for life". This is why I asked, is it too easy to get married.  One does have to be sure of what each want, and strive toward those together.  There has to be a commitment to one another and a commitment to the marriage.

And trust me, I am not the absolute all knowing being, more the devil's advocate...as I have been on having this same conversation with myself for the past year....  I made a commitment, and I love my husband (but I want romance, town life, someone who also cooks and none of these were my husband when I married him, so is he really going to change... yadda yadda yadda).... But I made a commitment for better or worse, till death due us part.... 

But marriage is supposed to be "for life". This is why I asked, is it too easy to get married.  One does have to be sure of what each want, and strive toward those together.  There has to be a commitment to one another and a commitment to the marriage.

And trust me, I am not the absolute all knowing being, more the devil's advocate...as I have been on having this same conversation with myself for the past year....  I made a commitment, and I love my husband (but I want romance, town life, someone who also cooks and none of these were my husband when I married him, so is he really going to change... yadda yadda yadda).... But I made a commitment for better or worse, till death due us part.... 


I think the best you can do is try to work it out... sure the commitment is til death do us part but how reasonable is that promise.
I mean maybe that's why the Scott Peterson's out there kill their wives...but really....don't you owe it to yourself to do what's best for you?
You have two daughters- not that I'm saying you should divorce just using you as an example-  take the girls out of the equation because I would assume you and hubby would work out a visitation schedule and stuff.... there is no abandonment here just two people who can no longer live as a couple....  okay so back to my poiint... you have two daughters... look at your marriage... would you want for them what you have?  would you want them to stay in a marriage that wasn't working or would you want them to put themselves first and do what's best for them...because ultimately when a mom puts herself first she's teaching her girls that she is important and then, when they grow up, they will learn that they are important and not sacrifice everything for their own kids there by creating a cycle of sami women who are all miserable for the sake of the kids.... blah blah... anyway.. not making a judgment on your current situation just, again... using it as an example..

But marriage is supposed to be "for life". This is why I asked, is it too easy to get married.  One does have to be sure of what each want, and strive toward those together.  There has to be a commitment to one another and a commitment to the marriage.

And trust me, I am not the absolute all knowing being, more the devil's advocate...as I have been on having this same conversation with myself for the past year....  I made a commitment, and I love my husband (but I want romance, town life, someone who also cooks and none of these were my husband when I married him, so is he really going to change... yadda yadda yadda).... But I made a commitment for better or worse, till death due us part.... 



While some marriages DO last "for life", people have to look at Nature and realize that humans don't necessarily mate for life like coyotes, swans, beavers, wolves, or gibbon apes do. (There are other species that also mate for life.) I think that is part of the problem and also because of unrealistic expectations about marriage.



Cat

I think the best you can do is try to work it out... sure the commitment is til death do us part but how reasonable is that promise.
I mean maybe that's why the Scott Peterson's out there kill their wives...but really....don't you owe it to yourself to do what's best for you?
You have two daughters- not that I'm saying you should divorce just using you as an example-  take the girls out of the equation because I would assume you and hubby would work out a visitation schedule and stuff.... there is no abandonment here just two people who can no longer live as a couple....  okay so back to my poiint... you have two daughters... look at your marriage... would you want for them what you have?  would you want them to stay in a marriage that wasn't working or would you want them to put themselves first and do what's best for them...because ultimately when a mom puts herself first she's teaching her girls that she is important and then, when they grow up, they will learn that they are important and not sacrifice everything for their own kids there by creating a cycle of sami women who are all miserable for the sake of the kids.... blah blah... anyway.. not making a judgment on your current situation just, again... using it as an example..


But a visitation schedule, even though as "best for both as it sounds" is not truly "great."  You still have 2 parents, who now have grudges, and have their own opinions and are not working in sync (I would like to think that as adults, that we could make it work).  But even as a married, unified source, living in the same house, we each have our own (this is what I believe is right and wrong; and what he has as right and wrong) and then we back the other on their decision.  The girls, still know what to ask mom for and what to ask dad... children learn how to manipulate the situation.  This gets even more pronounced in different households. And where I would choose to live, and where he would choose live would not be conducive.  (AND TRUST ME I AM FAR FROM MISERABLE - and I know you were only using us as an example).  I do also know that I am responsible for my own happiness, and I find what it is that makes me happy (and I let my husband know, as well), because I feel that my family is more important than me as a singular person. I am at school everyday, and I see all sort's of selfish parents.  I see all sorts of messed up kids.  I see parents who try to make their kids do homework, and the other parent not (because they want to be the "cool" parent).  I see parents who abuse the system, and keep having children for a paycheck (no matter how many times people tell me that wellfare is for a limited amount of time), not because they want was is best for the child.  I see teenagers as parents who are getting their nails done (on a more regular basis than me - which is why I notice - CAUSE IT PISSES ME OFF), and living off welfare, because they are mothers and they deserve a treat.  I see parents who go out on a nightly basis, and they are the "cool moms" because they are allowing parties at their homes - to all the students but their own (because their own know the neglect).  When do some parents think about what is best for their kids....  Being unhappy themselves, but being in a stable relationship (although not a heart throbbing, end of the world feeling) has it's own sense of comfort.  That it is not all about the next "high" (wether alcohol, drugs, men, romance, women, or what) it is about sacrifice.  We all need to learn to sacrifice for others, give something of ourselves for others sake, be more giving (it is better to give than to receive, volunteerism, and such), charity, and social gratitude... 

Well now that I am really on a pulpit - I will step down.  sorry

But a visitation schedule, even though as "best for both as it sounds" is not truly "great."  You still have 2 parents, who now have grudges, and have their own opinions and are not working in sync (I would like to think that as adults, that we could make it work).  But even as a married, unified source, living in the same house, we each have our own (this is what I believe is right and wrong; and what he has as right and wrong) and then we back the other on their decision.  The girls, still know what to ask mom for and what to ask dad... children learn how to manipulate the situation.  This gets even more pronounced in different households. And where I would choose to live, and where he would choose live would not be conducive.  (AND TRUST ME I AM FAR FROM MISERABLE - and I know you were only using us as an example).  I do also know that I am responsible for my own happiness, and I find what it is that makes me happy (and I let my husband know, as well), because I feel that my family is more important than me as a singular person. I am at school everyday, and I see all sort's of selfish parents.  I see all sorts of messed up kids.  I see parents who try to make their kids do homework, and the other parent not (because they want to be the "cool" parent).  I see parents who abuse the system, and keep having children for a paycheck (no matter how many times people tell me that wellfare is for a limited amount of time), not because they want was is best for the child.  I see teenagers as parents who are getting their nails done (on a more regular basis than me - which is why I notice - CAUSE IT PISSES ME OFF), and living off welfare, because they are mothers and they deserve a treat.  I see parents who go out on a nightly basis, and they are the "cool moms" because they are allowing parties at their homes - to all the students but their own (because their own know the neglect).  When do some parents think about what is best for their kids....  Being unhappy themselves, but being in a stable relationship (although not a heart throbbing, end of the world feeling) has it's own sense of comfort.  That it is not all about the next "high" (wether alcohol, drugs, men, romance, women, or what) it is about sacrifice.  We all need to learn to sacrifice for others, give something of ourselves for others sake, be more giving (it is better to give than to receive, volunteerism, and such), charity, and social gratitude... 

Well now that I am really on a pulpit - I will step down.  sorry


I like your pulpit.  I totally agree with everything you just said.

I just have to say that I appreciate everyone's opinions on this topic.  I have no idea what is going to happen with me or my life, but I asked for feedback and I got it and that's what I wanted.  I love you guys!!  

but you're not taking to account how people evolve over the years....someone at 18. 20. 24 may have given lots of thought to the marriage and thought this is totally the person for me! but 20 years down the road people change and they are no longer suited for each other...

I never suggested that people don't change. I'm not the same person I was when I married my beloved seven years ago, but I can't say I love her less. As always, your mileage may vary.
I'm also realistic when it comes to certain circumstances in which divorce may be the only option, but I believe those circumstances are far and few between. If people want to get out of a relationship they're not truly commited to in the first place, then they'll look for any excuse for an exit. Cut and run is not an effective strategy when the going gets tough in business or relationships. In most instances, it's a cop out.
Sorry if I come across as a hardliner about this, but I believe there are some things in life you simply shouldn't take lightly. Marriage is one of them. Some people seem to approach it with a defeatist or pie-in-the-sky mentality. Neither extreme is necessary.

But a visitation schedule, even though as "best for both as it sounds" is not truly "great."  You still have 2 parents, who now have grudges, and have their own opinions and are not working in sync (I would like to think that as adults, that we could make it work).  But even as a married, unified source, living in the same house, we each have our own (this is what I believe is right and wrong; and what he has as right and wrong) and then we back the other on their decision.  The girls, still know what to ask mom for and what to ask dad... children learn how to manipulate the situation.  This gets even more pronounced in different households. And where I would choose to live, and where he would choose live would not be conducive.  (AND TRUST ME I AM FAR FROM MISERABLE - and I know you were only using us as an example).  I do also know that I am responsible for my own happiness, and I find what it is that makes me happy (and I let my husband know, as well), because I feel that my family is more important than me as a singular person. I am at school everyday, and I see all sort's of selfish parents.  I see all sorts of messed up kids.  I see parents who try to make their kids do homework, and the other parent not (because they want to be the "cool" parent).  I see parents who abuse the system, and keep having children for a paycheck (no matter how many times people tell me that wellfare is for a limited amount of time), not because they want was is best for the child.  I see teenagers as parents who are getting their nails done (on a more regular basis than me - which is why I notice - CAUSE IT PISSES ME OFF), and living off welfare, because they are mothers and they deserve a treat.  I see parents who go out on a nightly basis, and they are the "cool moms" because they are allowing parties at their homes - to all the students but their own (because their own know the neglect).  When do some parents think about what is best for their kids....  Being unhappy themselves, but being in a stable relationship (although not a heart throbbing, end of the world feeling) has it's own sense of comfort.  That it is not all about the next "high" (wether alcohol, drugs, men, romance, women, or what) it is about sacrifice.  We all need to learn to sacrifice for others, give something of ourselves for others sake, be more giving (it is better to give than to receive, volunteerism, and such), charity, and social gratitude... 

Well now that I am really on a pulpit - I will step down.  sorry


no need to apologize Sami we just see things differently.  But don't get me wrong when I say moms need to put themselves first I don't mean all the time- and I'm not talking about being selfish.  What I'm talking about is mom's who never do anything for themselves. Sacrificing every moment for the kids- never doing anything for herself. This sends a message to the kids that says mom doesn't think she's worthy of anything for herself and it's a horrible message to send to kids- especially daughters because we get in this never-ending cycle of I'm not important enough to love myself....or some shyt like that... 

And the sad thing is its like little things like pampering yourself or doing what you want to do not what he or they want to do... 

forget I'm not explaining it right... watch more oprah!  ;)

I never suggested that people don't change. I'm not the same person I was when I married my beloved seven years ago, but I can't say I love her less. As always, your mileage may vary.
I'm also realistic when it comes to certain circumstances in which divorce may be the only option, but I believe those circumstances are far and few between. If people want to get out of a relationship they're not truly commited to in the first place, then they'll look for any excuse for an exit. Cut and run is not an effective strategy when the going gets tough in business or relationships. In most instances, it's a cop out.
Sorry if I come across as a hardliner about this, but I believe there are some things in life you simply shouldn't take lightly. Marriage is one of them. Some people seem to approach it with a defeatist or pie-in-the-sky mentality. Neither extreme is necessary.


I think we'll just have to agree that we disagree on this.

I just have to say that I appreciate everyone's opinions on this topic.  I have no idea what is going to happen with me or my life, but I asked for feedback and I got it and that's what I wanted.  I love you guys!!  
Love you too!  I hope it all works out in the end 8)  We are here, to give you our opinions either way!  And I think we are all big enough to get along, one way or another ;)

no need to apologize Sami we just see things differently.  But don't get me wrong when I say moms need to put themselves first I don't mean all the time- and I'm not talking about being selfish.  What I'm talking about is mom's who never do anything for themselves. Sacrificing every moment for the kids- never doing anything for herself. This sends a message to the kids that says mom doesn't think she's worthy of anything for herself and it's a horrible message to send to kids- especially daughters because we get in this never-ending cycle of I'm not important enough to love myself....or some shyt like that... 

And the sad thing is its like little things like pampering yourself or doing what you want to do not what he or they want to do... 

forget I'm not explaining it right... watch more oprah!  ;)
If you are talking about a woman getting lost amoungst the family - or sacrificing all of herself for the family (a woman should be seen and not heard... type of thing) - HELLYA I totally agree this is a bad thing.  One must learn to express their feelings and opinions (and NO WORRIES in my life on this one - the one thing my husband know's is my opinion and if he forgets or doesn't hear the first time, I will tell him again).  I really believe that both parties in the relationship must have their own lives as well, in order for each to be happy (and to create a safety net if something should happen to one or the other).  Which is why I think it is very important that there is trust and work towards a common goal as well (so each is secure in each other).  It is like His, Mine and Ours type of thing!  Family is important and it is a commitment, but it also means sacrifice (but complete control should not be either's goal). 

If you are talking about a woman getting lost amoungst the family - or sacrificing all of herself for the family (a woman should be seen and not heard... type of thing) - HELLYA I totally agree this is a bad thing.  One must learn to express their feelings and opinions (and NO WORRIES in my life on this one - the one thing my husband know's is my opinion and if he forgets or doesn't hear the first time, I will tell him again).  I really believe that both parties in the relationship must have their own lives as well, in order for each to be happy (and to create a safety net if something should happen to one or the other).  Which is why I think it is very important that there is trust and work towards a common goal as well (so each is secure in each other).  It is like His, Mine and Ours type of thing!  Family is important and it is a commitment, but it also means sacrifice (but complete control should not be either's goal). 


well both actually...getting lost in the family.... and not speaking up for herself within the family...but mostly I was thinking of the first one...

I have endless examples of women who always put themselves second, third and fourth...as if by playing the martyr they are making themselves seem noble...nope they are just hurting themselves and the their daughters who learn to behave in the same manner...

People expect too much out of each other.  I keep hearing this whining about "not getting my needs met."  What do you expect in a culture where every time you turn around there's some advertisement or pop psychologist telling you just how you're not getting your needs met.  And for chrissakes, don't pump out four kids and then talk about "me time." 

The traditional marriage vows acknowledge you are embarking on a 40+ year journey consisting mostly of mundane routine and putting up with each others foibles after the bloom has left the flower.  Sometimes it's going to be challenging, but if you're still married at 80 to the same spouse you married when you were 25, you'll be able to look back at a rock-solid foundation you have built for your souls and for the lives of your children and grandchildren.  Sure, you'll remember the times of excruciating boredom and frustration and suspicion...but you've gotten through it and you're a strong soul for it.

People expect too much out of each other.  I keep hearing this whining about "not getting my needs met."  What do you expect in a culture where every time you turn around there's some advertisement or pop psychologist telling you just how you're not getting your needs met.  And for chrissakes, don't pump out four kids and then talk about "me time." 

The traditional marriage vows acknowledge you are embarking on a 40+ year journey consisting mostly of mundane routine and putting up with each others foibles after the bloom has left the flower.  Sometimes it's going to be challenging, but if you're still married at 80 to the same spouse you married when you were 25, you'll be able to look back at a rock-solid foundation you have built for your souls and for the lives of your children and grandchildren.  Sure, you'll remember the times of excruciating boredom and frustration and suspicion...but you've gotten through it and you're a strong soul for it.


My God I needed to hear that.

People expect too much out of each other.  I keep hearing this whining about "not getting my needs met."  What do you expect in a culture where every time you turn around there's some advertisement or pop psychologist telling you just how you're not getting your needs met.  And for chrissakes, don't pump out four kids and then talk about "me time." 

The traditional marriage vows acknowledge you are embarking on a 40+ year journey consisting mostly of mundane routine and putting up with each others foibles after the bloom has left the flower.  Sometimes it's going to be challenging, but if you're still married at 80 to the same spouse you married when you were 25, you'll be able to look back at a rock-solid foundation you have built for your souls and for the lives of your children and grandchildren.  Sure, you'll remember the times of excruciating boredom and frustration and suspicion...but you've gotten through it and you're a strong soul for it.


I really liked this...

My God I needed to hear that.


Ask the victim of an extremely dysfunctional family like mine.  My karaaaazzzy parents are divorced and still don't speak to each other after nearly 30 years.  Both of my sisters got divorced after having kids.  My stepbrother and his wife seem to have a good marriage so far, but I don't think they want kids.  I never got married and never will.  Among the mental illness, alcoholism, drug abuse, immoral behavior, guilt-tripping, lying, and all that other junk, the supportive family unit is nowhere to be found.  Few of us even talk to each other anymore.   I can't tell you how empty that feels.  

I often tell people whose parents are still married how fortunate they are.  Divorce just isn't what it was chalked up to be when "no fault" emerged in the 1960s.  

When I was a kid, other kids envied me because I never got grounded and I never had a curfew, and I never got in trouble for coming home with a bad report card.  The truth was, I envied THEM a hell of a lot more.  There was nobody looking out for my best interests when I was 12 or 15 or 18, and I sure wished there was.

:\'(

BTW, thanks to Ash and Gibbo.  I thought I might get hollered at for not understanding.  After all, I've never been married.

People expect too much out of each other.  I keep hearing this whining about "not getting my needs met."  What do you expect in a culture where every time you turn around there's some advertisement or pop psychologist telling you just how you're not getting your needs met.  And for chrissakes, don't pump out four kids and then talk about "me time." 

The traditional marriage vows acknowledge you are embarking on a 40+ year journey consisting mostly of mundane routine and putting up with each others foibles after the bloom has left the flower.  Sometimes it's going to be challenging, but if you're still married at 80 to the same spouse you married when you were 25, you'll be able to look back at a rock-solid foundation you have built for your souls and for the lives of your children and grandchildren.  Sure, you'll remember the times of excruciating boredom and frustration and suspicion...but you've gotten through it and you're a strong soul for it.


Well put.

Ask the victim of an extremely dysfunctional family like mine.  My karaaaazzzy parents are divorced and still don't speak to each other after nearly 30 years.  Both of my sisters got divorced after having kids.  My stepbrother and his wife seem to have a good marriage so far, but I don't think they want kids.  I never got married and never will.  Among the mental illness, alcoholism, drug abuse, immoral behavior, guilt-tripping, lying, and all that other junk, the supportive family unit is nowhere to be found.  Few of us even talk to each other anymore.   I can't tell you how empty that feels.  

I often tell people whose parents are still married how fortunate they are.  Divorce just isn't what it was chalked up to be when "no fault" emerged in the 1960s.  

When I was a kid, other kids envied me because I never got grounded and I never had a curfew, and I never got in trouble for coming home with a bad report card.  The truth was, I envied THEM a hell of a lot more.  There was nobody looking out for my best interests when I was 12 or 15 or 18, and I sure wished there was.

:\'(

BTW, thanks to Ash and Gibbo.  I thought I might get hollered at for not understanding.  After all, I've never been married.


It was good to hear your point of view (forged through an experience I cannot relate to). I am from a family of 6 kids and my parents are in their mid 80's and still together. I have been married to the same person now for more than 20 years (with 4 children). When it all gets (seemingly) too much and I start to whinge about the 'cost' of 4 kids and the 'loss' of my old single identity (you know...back when I didn't have a care and life was all fun with little responsibility)...it's very sobering to hear another type of outcome that could happen so easily if I have a brain explosion and decide to throw it all away!  

Thanks Max.... I just realised I really have no problems at all.

People expect too much out of each other.  I keep hearing this whining about "not getting my needs met."  What do you expect in a culture where every time you turn around there's some advertisement or pop psychologist telling you just how you're not getting your needs met.  And for chrissakes, don't pump out four kids and then talk about "me time." 

The traditional marriage vows acknowledge you are embarking on a 40+ year journey consisting mostly of mundane routine and putting up with each others foibles after the bloom has left the flower.  Sometimes it's going to be challenging, but if you're still married at 80 to the same spouse you married when you were 25, you'll be able to look back at a rock-solid foundation you have built for your souls and for the lives of your children and grandchildren.  Sure, you'll remember the times of excruciating boredom and frustration and suspicion...but you've gotten through it and you're a strong soul for it.
Nicely done!!!

People expect too much out of each other.  I keep hearing this whining about "not getting my needs met."  What do you expect in a culture where every time you turn around there's some advertisement or pop psychologist telling you just how you're not getting your needs met.  And for chrissakes, don't pump out four kids and then talk about "me time."  

The traditional marriage vows acknowledge you are embarking on a 40+ year journey consisting mostly of mundane routine and putting up with each others foibles after the bloom has left the flower.  Sometimes it's going to be challenging, but if you're still married at 80 to the same spouse you married when you were 25, you'll be able to look back at a rock-solid foundation you have built for your souls and for the lives of your children and grandchildren.  Sure, you'll remember the times of excruciating boredom and frustration and suspicion...but you've gotten through it and you're a strong soul for it.


In total agreement.

I must be pretty careful with my words because I got engaged and nearly went up the aisle myself, now understanding how close I was to ruining my life. I am a very idealistic person that believes 40 year+ marriages are a regular occurrance for happy couples but I believe from my experiences, in order to be a part of a happy couple, people ought to trust their own basic judgement/instinctive inner voice and have the guts to think to themselves; 'this person isn't the one, next...' or 'I have this strange feeling I want to be with this person until the day I die'.

I'm guessing the problem with certain people entering marriage is that they believe it will automatically fix their life, suffocate their insecurities and expel their demons when in reality what happens is those insecurities and demons resurface to play havoc in the relationship. So now the person who got themselves married not only has to take into account their emotional lot but also whatever their partner brings to the table as well.

In total agreement.

I must be pretty careful with my words because I got engaged and nearly went up the aisle myself, now understanding how close I was to ruining my life. I am a very idealistic person that believes 40 year+ marriages are a regular occurrance for happy couples but I believe from my experiences, in order to be a part of a happy couple, people ought to trust their own basic judgement/instinctive inner voice and have the guts to think to themselves; 'this person isn't the one, next...' or 'I have this strange feeling I want to be with this person until the day I die'.

I'm guessing the problem with certain people entering marriage is that they believe it will automatically fix their life, suffocate their insecurities and expel their demons when in reality what happens is those insecurities and demons resurface to play havoc in the relationship. So now the person who got themselves married not only has to take into account their emotional lot but also whatever their partner brings to the table as well.


Great points, and well spoken, Bobby!

I've been married for 11 years, with no children.  

I think the biggest thing that has made our marriage successful, is that we don't try to control each other or find it necessary to spend every possible minute together.   He has his friends and hobbies, I have mine, and we have several friends and interests in common.  I have no problem if he goes and hangs out with his friends (even if they are female) and he has no problem if I do the same.   We are not all that reliant on each other for day to day things, we are both very independent... so in some ways it's still like being single.

But I would not in a million years want to live without him, he is a great person, very responsible, honest, good sense of humor, fun,  trustworthy, etc.

Too many marriages end up restricting people's lives instead of broadening them.  I like to think that I added a "family life" to my existing life, as opposed to replacing my existing life with a family life.

I've been married for 11 years, with no children.  

I think the biggest thing that has made our marriage successful, is that we don't try to control each other or find it necessary to spend every possible minute together.   He has his friends and hobbies, I have mine, and we have several friends and interests in common.  I have no problem if he goes and hangs out with his friends (even if they are female) and he has no problem if I do the same.   We are not all that reliant on each other for day to day things, we are both very independent... so in some ways it's still like being single.

But I would not in a million years want to live without him, he is a great person, very responsible, honest, good sense of humor, fun,  trustworthy, etc.

Too many marriages end up restricting people's lives instead of broadening them.  I like to think that I added a "family life" to my existing life, as opposed to replacing my existing life with a family life.



This sounds a lot like us too.

I don't think I'm going to get married,I'm just going to date and have fun from what happened with the previous women before that I dated (1997-2001) (2004-2008),At this point in my life,It takes a lot of money and I don't have it.

I've been married for 11 years, with no children.  

I think the biggest thing that has made our marriage successful, is that we don't try to control each other or find it necessary to spend every possible minute together.   He has his friends and hobbies, I have mine, and we have several friends and interests in common.  I have no problem if he goes and hangs out with his friends (even if they are female) and he has no problem if I do the same.   We are not all that reliant on each other for day to day things, we are both very independent... so in some ways it's still like being single.

But I would not in a million years want to live without him, he is a great person, very responsible, honest, good sense of humor, fun,  trustworthy, etc.

Too many marriages end up restricting people's lives instead of broadening them.  I like to think that I added a "family life" to my existing life, as opposed to replacing my existing life with a family life.





After living alone for about 6 years before moving in with Carlos, I thought that I would have some issues with needing my space, doing things without him, etc. etc. I was also afraid when he retired because I had my alone time when he was at work but then he was going to be home ALL THE TIME! It didn't turn out that way. In fact, we are usually within the same room together. Sometimes he will go into the back room and work on a crossword puzzle or something and after a while, I start missing him.  :o :o :o  I just feel like he is an extension of me and if he is too far away for too long, I start feeling very lost. I know that isn't good. It took me a long time to find my independence and now I am so dependent on him it is unreal. That is one of the reasons why I am so afraid of losing him.


Cat

Marriage is difficult, at least my experience with it. It's so difficult whenever you get so emotionally attached to someone, and they hurt you many times, yet you still can't ever seem to let go of them. It's hard to be in a situation where you love someone, but being IN love with them becomes a struggle a lot of the time. It's like...when is that "right" time to finally let go from them? How many times should one let themselves get hurt and keep taking the person back? A lot of people act like it is such a simple task to just up and leave someone that you've invested so much time and energy in....but it is such a difficult thing, at least for me.  I love my husband, probably more than anyone will ever love him, but sometimes it seems like I am not receiving the type of love and attention that I deserve. Is it so crazy for a person to feel content one day, and then the next day feel like they just want to run away and start all over? It really is a confusing part of life.

Marriage is difficult, at least my experience with it. It's so difficult whenever you get so emotionally attached to someone, and they hurt you many times, yet you still can't ever seem to let go of them. It's hard to be in a situation where you love someone, but being IN love with them becomes a struggle a lot of the time. It's like...when is that "right" time to finally let go from them? How many times should one let themselves get hurt and keep taking the person back? A lot of people act like it is such a simple task to just up and leave someone that you've invested so much time and energy in....but it is such a difficult thing, at least for me.  I love my husband, probably more than anyone will ever love him, but sometimes it seems like I am not receiving the type of love and attention that I deserve. Is it so crazy for a person to feel content one day, and then the next day feel like they just want to run away and start all over? It really is a confusing part of life.


That's exactly how I feel.  Like every day was a battle.  Some days would be good...but we would always always end up fighting.  We just couldn't get it together and I don't think we will ever be capable of getting it together.  That's when I finally had to walk away.  When I realized that some things never change, no matter how hard you try, how hard you fight, or how much you love.  :(

That's exactly how I feel.  Like every day was a battle.  Some days would be good...but we would always always end up fighting.  We just couldn't get it together and I don't think we will ever be capable of getting it together.  That's when I finally had to walk away.  When I realized that some things never change, no matter how hard you try, how hard you fight, or how much you love.   :(


That's how it is for us too. I always feel like I am in competition with other women all the time. It seems like the only time the focus is directly on me, is when he wants to be intimate...other times, we are arguing. I hate being the jealous type too...and I never ever wanted to be paranoid, but when suspiscions have come true over and over again, it becomes being realistic and not just paranoia. I just want, for once in my life...to be someone's world (romantically speaking).

That's how it is for us too. I always feel like I am in competition with other women all the time. It seems like the only time the focus is directly on me, is when he wants to be intimate...other times, we are arguing. I hate being the jealous type too...and I never ever wanted to be paranoid, but when suspiscions have come true over and over again, it becomes being realistic and not just paranoia. I just want, for once in my life...to be someone's world (romantically speaking).


Erin, you SHOULD be someone's world.  You deserve to be.  You are amazing.  If he doesn't know that, he is the one that has a problem - not you. 

Erin, you SHOULD be someone's world.  You deserve to be.  You are amazing.  If he doesn't know that, he is the one that has a problem - not you. 


Thank you girl...love u! :O)

Erin, you SHOULD be someone's world.  You deserve to be.  You are amazing.  If he doesn't know that, he is the one that has a problem - not you. 



Thank you girl...love u! :O)



Maybe you two should get together.  ;) :D ;D ;D ;D


Ok ok. J/k.


Seriously, if you are not being treated the way you THINK you should be treated-then you are not. I know it is hard to leave-been there, done that and it was one of the hardest things I ever had to do. I think a lot of people are afraid to leave because they are afraid of being alone but believe you me, there are a lot worse things than being alone. I know it is so easy to say, "Well, maybe if I did this or that..." but some people can't or don't want to change. But, there just comes a point where you have to say, "Enough is enough and I don't want to miserable any more" and you leave for good! It takes a while to heal when a relationship ends. I was totally alone for a few years before I started dating Carlos. I might have gone out on one or two dates but nothing more than that. By the time HE came into my life, I was ready for him-both emotionally & physically.  ;)

I hope that both of you can find peace and your "Carlos" who will treat you like the Goddesses you truly are.


Cat

Maybe you two should get together.  ;) :D ;D ;D ;D





I should be so lucky!  :D

Too many marriages end up restricting people's lives instead of broadening them.  I like to think that I added a "family life" to my existing life, as opposed to replacing my existing life with a family life.





that's the best description of it I've ever seen! IOUK  :)

My Parents have been married for 41 years. :)

Marriage is difficult, at least my experience with it. It's so difficult whenever you get so emotionally attached to someone, and they hurt you many times, yet you still can't ever seem to let go of them. It's hard to be in a situation where you love someone, but being IN love with them becomes a struggle a lot of the time. It's like...when is that "right" time to finally let go from them? How many times should one let themselves get hurt and keep taking the person back? A lot of people act like it is such a simple task to just up and leave someone that you've invested so much time and energy in....but it is such a difficult thing, at least for me.  I love my husband, probably more than anyone will ever love him, but sometimes it seems like I am not receiving the type of love and attention that I deserve. Is it so crazy for a person to feel content one day, and then the next day feel like they just want to run away and start all over? It really is a confusing part of life.


I guess what happens, Erin, is when we deal with toxic or failing relationships we only see what we want to see. We do this because we have invested a lot of time, effort and love in it. We keep taking the knocks because in our minds we are saying; "If this relationship fails it means I have wasted x amount of years, x amount of tears and x amount of heartache on something that is inevitable. I can't let that happen and I can change this even if I have to do it on my own." The fact of the matter is it takes two people to make a relationship work and it's difficult to deal with the idea that maybe a partner doesn't want to make it work. Some cowardly partners deliberately self-destruct their relationships so the other partner can make the decision to end it. Despite the idea that emotional circumstances are not logical, we can still make logical choices within them - whether that bittersweet choice is to take the relationship or leave it.

Remember that out of your relationship came Vaughn so something wonderful happened even if the situation as it stands now is intolerable. :)

I've been thinking about the balance of love for a while and it unnerves me that it is so precarious. That is why we should all be joyous when we encounter two people who are devoted to each other in equal measure.

I don't think I'm going to get married,I'm just going to date and have fun from what happened with the previous women before that I dated (1997-2001) (2004-2008),At this point in my life,It takes a lot of money and I don't have it.


A relationship does take a certain amount of money (especially if children come along) but money certainly isn't the most important factor of a relationship. There are a lot of unhappy couples out there because one partner is in hot pursuit of the next dollar (or in my case pound).

The most important factor of a relationship is love and, in my opinion, the bible explains what love is in 1 Corinthians 13:4 (New International Version)...

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

A relationship does take a certain amount of money (especially if children come along) but money certainly isn't the most important factor of a relationship. There are a lot of unhappy couples out there because one partner is in hot pursuit of the next dollar (or in my case pound).

The most important factor of a relationship is love and, in my opinion, the bible explains what love is in 1 Corinthians 13:4 (New International Version)...

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."


That's my favorite bible verse.  Karma.

Ash & Erin, your husbands must be idiots to not completely appreciate what a great person they have!!! >:(



Ash, I don't know details of your situation, so I can't really say anything specific but your husband lost a great thing!



That's how it is for us too. I always feel like I am in competition with other women all the time. It seems like the only time the focus is directly on me, is when he wants to be intimate...other times, we are arguing. I hate being the jealous type too...and I never ever wanted to be paranoid, but when suspiscions have come true over and over again, it becomes being realistic and not just paranoia. I just want, for once in my life...to be someone's world (romantically speaking).


Erin, I used to be really jealous and paranoid... so I know how that feels.  Then I had a boyfriend who cheated on me.  I was devastated at the time and it took some time to get over it, but eventually I got through it.  The next relationship I was in, I found that I no longer felt the jealousy and paranoia... I think because the worst possible relationship problem had already happened to me, and I got through it, I realized I could get through it again if it happened, and it wasn't so bad (in the big picture) that it was worth all the stress worrying that it *could* happen.

I don't know if that helps or not, but you are a very strong person... You've already cleared the toughest hurdles and you've survived each and every one of them....they haven't destroyed you, you are still a great person, doing a great job raising Vaughn, etc.

*hugs*

The thing is....we are all flawed human beings and it is indeed rare to find two people who are balanced/centred enough to handle each others flaws.

We keep taking the knocks because in our minds we are saying; "If this relationship fails it means I have wasted x amount of years, x amount of tears and x amount of heartache on something that is inevitable. I can't let that happen and I can change this even if I have to do it on my own."


We're all subject to the sunk cost fallacy, be it in our economic lives or in our relationships with others.


I've been thinking about the balance of love for a while and it unnerves me that it is so precarious. That is why we should all be joyous when we encounter two people who are devoted to each other in equal measure.


In any relationship, the person who cares least has the most power.  The odds of two people being equally-matched in that respect are pretty slim, but it's how mutual assured destruction turns into eventual detente and duopoly - "you and me against the world, when do we start?".  My parents were lucky enough to find it.  Me?  I played a few rounds in college and decided that the only winning move was not to play.  Pays your money, takes your chances.

A relationship does take a certain amount of money (especially if children come along) but money certainly isn't the most important factor of a relationship. There are a lot of unhappy couples out there because one partner is in hot pursuit of the next dollar (or in my case pound).

The most important factor of a relationship is love and, in my opinion, the bible explains what love is in 1 Corinthians 13:4 (New International Version)...

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."


that's great,karma.  :)

I should be so lucky!   :D



I would be very lucky too!! Ash is beautiful and wonderful! <3

Cat, Rob, and Andrea....thank you all so much for your insight and advice...you are all very correct.

I should be so lucky!   :D





I would be very lucky too!! Ash is beautiful and wonderful! <3




See? Well there you go!



Cat

We're all subject to the sunk cost fallacy, be it in our economic lives or in our relationships with others.

I didn't realise such a concept existed, Foo Bar. Thanks for showing it to me. When I think of one-sided relationships, I think of a gambling addict on a fruit-machine. S/he starts off fine until s/he loses the money, then s/he puts more money in to try to recover the lost funds but the streak of luck never materialises. When everything is said and done, the gambling addict has lost more than if s/he simply walked away.

In any relationship, the person who cares least has the most power.  The odds of two people being equally-matched in that respect are pretty slim, but it's how mutual assured destruction turns into eventual detente and duopoly - "you and me against the world, when do we start?".  My parents were lucky enough to find it.  Me?  I played a few rounds in college and decided that the only winning move was not to play.  Pays your money, takes your chances.


I'm a little lost on your last sentences but I sort of get your drift. I picture being in a relationship not as a glorified housemate or as a conscripted soldier but as a team. Admittedly, I appreciate the idea of being a team isn't what you would call conventionally romantic but then I think a dependency on romance promotes exaggerated expectations. Two people working together for the benefit of themselves, for each other and, ultimately, for the greater good. Possibly because of my upbringing, the idea of two people loving, laughing, progressing, developing, coping and healing together despite the odds strikes me as more romantic than a candle-lit dinner...Still, it takes all sorts. :)

The whole idea of 'it's just you and me vs the world' has been promoted as the highest declaration of love but it's not. It shows insecurity, co-dependency and paranoia.

The thing is....we are all flawed human beings and it is indeed rare to find two people who are balanced/centred enough to handle each others flaws.


I think a lot of people out there are only in love with the idea of being in love. This is ego-based and concerns only how they feel when they are experiencing it. This subjective notion doesn't take into account people's weaknesses, faults, problems and issues so when that person in La-La-Land finally has to come to terms with that person's weaknesses, faults, problems and issues it not only becomes a big deal but it permanently changes the dimension of the relationship because it was that aspect that depended on it working.

Two example off the top of my head...

One is a woman who is in love with the idea that a big, strong, muscular, often aggressive man is what she needs to keep her protected and safe. It is perfectly natural for a woman to want these things from her man. However, because she hasn't taken a man's personality into consideration, the idea doesn't enter her head that this big, strong, muscular, often aggressive man could turn on his partner and knock ten bells out of her on a regular basis. If ithis would turn out to be the case, it would be ironical that she is more vulnerable with her 'guardian' than she would be without him.

Another is a man who is in love with the idea that a woman with long legs, ample breasts, shapely hips, gorgeous eyes and oustanding dress sense is what he needs to be satisfied by her. Again, it is perfectly natural for a man to want these things from a woman. However, because he has hasn't taken a woman's personality into consideration, the idea doessn't enter his head that this well dressed, long-legged, ample breasted, shapely hipped woman with gorgeous eyes is as thick as two short planks with absolutely no personality whatsoever. If this turns out to be the case, he finds himself less satisfied than he was without her.

It's all about knowing what you want and able to accept with eyes wide open in 3D (physical, mental and emotional) not in 2D.

Marriage is difficult, at least my experience with it. It's so difficult whenever you get so emotionally attached to someone, and they hurt you many times, yet you still can't ever seem to let go of them. It's hard to be in a situation where you love someone, but being IN love with them becomes a struggle a lot of the time. It's like...when is that "right" time to finally let go from them? How many times should one let themselves get hurt and keep taking the person back? A lot of people act like it is such a simple task to just up and leave someone that you've invested so much time and energy in....but it is such a difficult thing, at least for me.  I love my husband, probably more than anyone will ever love him, but sometimes it seems like I am not receiving the type of love and attention that I deserve. Is it so crazy for a person to feel content one day, and then the next day feel like they just want to run away and start all over? It really is a confusing part of life.
Oh, this is sooo not fair.  Do what is good for you!  The rest you will have to figure out as it comes up.  But you deserve to have your love reciprocated!  Even though my husband SUCKS at romance, I know he loves me.  I cannot make him be "prince charming" with wine and roses and sweep me off my feet, but he is always there.  I used to take his lack of romantic gesture as taking me for granted.  I deserve more than this - unfortunately I have learned magazine life, and romance novels aren't always true.  We do what works, and if something works for you - then go for it.  Loves and hugs!  Change is always scarey!

That's exactly how I feel.  Like every day was a battle.  Some days would be good...but we would always always end up fighting.  We just couldn't get it together and I don't think we will ever be capable of getting it together.  That's when I finally had to walk away.  When I realized that some things never change, no matter how hard you try, how hard you fight, or how much you love.   :(
Love and hugs Ash!  I really feel for you!  I hope you can heal and do what is best for you.  I know how hard those "battles" are, I have been there.  Sometimes I wonder if the media has portrayed life's battles as too easily won...

I don't know if it's realistic, but it is what people gravitate to...there must have been some evolutionary reason why humankind started marriage rights early on. 

I think it is important for familial continuity.

After living alone for about 6 years before moving in with Carlos, I thought that I would have some issues with needing my space, doing things without him, etc. etc. I was also afraid when he retired because I had my alone time when he was at work but then he was going to be home ALL THE TIME! It didn't turn out that way. In fact, we are usually within the same room together. Sometimes he will go into the back room and work on a crossword puzzle or something and after a while, I start missing him.  :o :o :o  I just feel like he is an extension of me and if he is too far away for too long, I start feeling very lost. I know that isn't good. It took me a long time to find my independence and now I am so dependent on him it is unreal. That is one of the reasons why I am so afraid of losing him.


Cat


Well, my love, In many ways I depend upon you.  You are the love of my life, my friend, my soul mate, my lover, my ....And I couldn't imagine life without you.  Nor do I want to.

I didn't realise such a concept existed, Foo Bar. Thanks for showing it to me. When I think of one-sided relationships, I think of a gambling addict on a fruit-machine. S/he starts off fine until s/he loses the money, then s/he puts more money in to try to recover the lost funds but the streak of luck never materialises. When everything is said and done, the gambling addict has lost more than if s/he simply walked away.


Actually, you can kinda stop there.  The sunk cost fallacy has more to do with business decisions than it does with relationships, although your analogy pretty much wraps it up in the context of relationships too.  I know how money works, I opted outa the relationship game decades ago.  (Strange game, the only winning move for me was not to play.)


I'm a little lost on your last sentences but I sort of get your drift. I picture being in a relationship not as a glorified housemate or as a conscripted soldier but as a team.


And that sorta thing can happen.  My own parents somehow managed it.  They couldn't explain to me how they pulled it off, and I've never been able to suss out the difference from my married-and-happy friends and my divorced friends.

http://www.symbex.net.au/knowledge/relationships/demotivators_1598_1170818.jpg

Because Photoshop hadn't made it into widespread use, it took me a few years to come to that conclusion, but once I did, life got a lot simpler :)


The whole idea of 'it's just you and me vs the world' has been promoted as the highest declaration of love but it's not. It shows insecurity, co-dependency and paranoia.


Awesome!  I knew I could tell you how not to do it! 

As to how to do it, well, that's something I never figured out.  Some people do, but you'll have to ask them, and they'll have to give you an answer that enables you to replicate their success.  My problem-solving attempts ceased when I realized it's not up to one of you to replicate their success - both of you have to figure it out.  Got no solution to that either beyond reminding you of what you already know:  it's a complicated problem, and those who find solutions are admirable, and that's why I'm only an observer, not a researcher.  Dropped my share of quarters into the games in the arcade of life, but eventually went back to the games at which I was competent.

Well, my love, In many ways I depend upon you.  You are the love of my life, my friend, my soul mate, my lover, my ....And I couldn't imagine life without you.  Nor do I want to.



:-* :-* :-* :-* :-*



Cat

I wasn't sure if this thread was the appropriate place for this poem, but I think it kind of goes along with some of the things we've been discussing, and it certainly pertains to my life right now. 

After a While

After a while, you learn the subtle difference
Between holding a hand and chaining a soul,
And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning
And company doesn't mean security,
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
And presents aren't promises,
And you begin to accept your defeats
With your head up and your eyes open,
With the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child,
And learn to build all your roads on today
Because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans,
And futures have a way of falling down in midflight
And after a while, you learn
That even sunshine burns if you get too much.
So you plant your own garden and decorate your own soul,
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure...
That you really are strong
And you really do have worth
And you learn and learn...
With every goodbye, you learn.

by Veronica A. Shoffstall

Actually, you can kinda stop there.  The sunk cost fallacy has more to do with business decisions than it does with relationships, although your analogy pretty much wraps it up in the context of relationships too.  I know how money works, I opted outa the relationship game decades ago.  (Strange game, the only winning move for me was not to play.)

:)

And that sorta thing can happen.  My own parents somehow managed it.  They couldn't explain to me how they pulled it off, and I've never been able to suss out the difference from my married-and-happy friends and my divorced friends.

http://www.symbex.net.au/knowledge/relationships/demotivators_1598_1170818.jpg

Because Photoshop hadn't made it into widespread use, it took me a few years to come to that conclusion, but once I did, life got a lot simpler :)

Yes, that is true. The good thing is we can at least change and have a better relationship with ourselves.

Awesome!  I knew I could tell you how not to do it! 

As to how to do it, well, that's something I never figured out.  Some people do, but you'll have to ask them, and they'll have to give you an answer that enables you to replicate their success.  My problem-solving attempts ceased when I realized it's not up to one of you to replicate their success - both of you have to figure it out.  Got no solution to that either beyond reminding you of what you already know:  it's a complicated problem, and those who find solutions are admirable, and that's why I'm only an observer, not a researcher.  Dropped my share of quarters into the games in the arcade of life, but eventually went back to the games at which I was competent.


How did you get competent at those games? You practised. It's cool to try a different 'game' once in a while. I have stumbled through my fair share of embarrassing experiences but, most of the time, I have been content that I have no regrets so far (lost a few women friends as a result but you have to sort through the wheat from the chaff so to speak). I am sure I have a few more embarrassing experiences to come before I find 'the one', lol.

I wasn't sure if this thread was the appropriate place for this poem, but I think it kind of goes along with some of the things we've been discussing, and it certainly pertains to my life right now. 

After a While

After a while, you learn the subtle difference
Between holding a hand and chaining a soul,
And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning
And company doesn't mean security,
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
And presents aren't promises,
And you begin to accept your defeats
With your head up and your eyes open,
With the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child,
And learn to build all your roads on today
Because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans,
And futures have a way of falling down in midflight
And after a while, you learn
That even sunshine burns if you get too much.
So you plant your own garden and decorate your own soul,
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure...
That you really are strong
And you really do have worth
And you learn and learn...
With every goodbye, you learn.

by Veronica A. Shoffstall


I have read this poem before, Ash. It is lovely and gives a different, yet more intimate portrayal of what love of self is all about.  8)

I wasn't sure if this thread was the appropriate place for this poem, but I think it kind of goes along with some of the things we've been discussing, and it certainly pertains to my life right now. 

After a While

After a while, you learn the subtle difference
Between holding a hand and chaining a soul,
And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning
And company doesn't mean security,
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
And presents aren't promises,
And you begin to accept your defeats
With your head up and your eyes open,
With the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child,
And learn to build all your roads on today
Because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans,
And futures have a way of falling down in midflight
And after a while, you learn
That even sunshine burns if you get too much.
So you plant your own garden and decorate your own soul,
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure...
That you really are strong
And you really do have worth
And you learn and learn...
With every goodbye, you learn.

by Veronica A. Shoffstall


Beautiful...  and I hate that someone made you feel like you couldn't do these things when you were with them :\'(

(((((((((More Hugs))))))))))

I wasn't sure if this thread was the appropriate place for this poem, but I think it kind of goes along with some of the things we've been discussing, and it certainly pertains to my life right now.  

After a While

After a while, you learn the subtle difference
Between holding a hand and chaining a soul,
And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning
And company doesn't mean security,
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
And presents aren't promises,
And you begin to accept your defeats
With your head up and your eyes open,
With the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child,
And learn to build all your roads on today
Because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans,
And futures have a way of falling down in midflight
And after a while, you learn
That even sunshine burns if you get too much.
So you plant your own garden and decorate your own soul,
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure...
That you really are strong
And you really do have worth
And you learn and learn...
With every goodbye, you learn.

by Veronica A. Shoffstall




This kind of poetry-posts weighs my anchor at "inthe00s"
and keeps me from drifting off boards searching for a pot of gold.
Though I'm a rough sailor, nearly a creature  void of form
My wife is always my haven, my best shelter from the storm.
None I don't need a piece of paper to say the deal is done.
She is indeed a God's gift so I don't need any DEED OF GIFT
to lead us safe and warm and keep us from the grief.


I'm glad to read from you again Ash  ;)

I wasn't sure if this thread was the appropriate place for this poem, but I think it kind of goes along with some of the things we've been discussing, and it certainly pertains to my life right now. 

After a While

After a while, you learn the subtle difference
Between holding a hand and chaining a soul,
And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning
And company doesn't mean security,
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
And presents aren't promises,
And you begin to accept your defeats
With your head up and your eyes open,
With the grace of a woman, not the grief of a child,
And learn to build all your roads on today
Because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans,
And futures have a way of falling down in midflight
And after a while, you learn
That even sunshine burns if you get too much.
So you plant your own garden and decorate your own soul,
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure...
That you really are strong
And you really do have worth
And you learn and learn...
With every goodbye, you learn.

by Veronica A. Shoffstall




beautiful poem Ash.  :)

They discovered easy divorce.  Good on them.  We in the Generation-X had to pay dearly.  Now people aren't even getting married anymore!
::)

They discovered easy divorce.  Good on them.  We in the Generation-X had to pay dearly.  Now people aren't even getting married anymore!
::)


I don't want to get married,I'm just going to date,bring the girl home and have fun with them.

They discovered easy divorce.  Good on them.  We in the Generation-X had to pay dearly.  Now people aren't even getting married anymore!
::)


I don't think there is ANYTHING easy about getting a divorce. 

I don't think there is ANYTHING easy about getting a divorce. 


Mine was relatively simple.  I paid the court fees and my ex-husband drew up the papers using a template he'd bought at an Office Supply store.  Even though I'd wanted out just as much as he did by that time, it was no easy matter of emotionally letting go and just trying to convince myself that it was the right decision and that I'd be alright afterwards.  I don't know how he felt about it, but I'm sure it wasn't all-that-much-fun.  I wouldn't wish divorce on my worst enemy. 

I don't think there is ANYTHING easy about getting a divorce. 


I don't mean it's easy easy.  I mean it's easy to get when your church and your state allow it.  Massachusetts has no-fault divorce.  I'm pretty sure California does, but I'm not sure about other states.  Anyway, in no-fault divorce you just have to file the papers and then the legal stuff. 

Custody and property battles are often horrific and go on for years.  My old man still owes me tens of thousands in child support.  Of course, I'll never see it and I don't expect it!  Like it or not, I'm not a child anymore. 

The divorce itself has gone through.  You're not legally obliged to the guy any more.  Who gets the kids, the car, the dog, the house, maybe that's all up for grabs, but you're done with that man. 
:)

Somebody once told me that it should really hard to get married and easier to get a divorce. That way, young kids wouldn't jump into marriage so easily (like I did the first time around).


Cat

Somebody once told me that it should really hard to get married and easier to get a divorce. That way, young kids wouldn't jump into marriage so easily (like I did the first time around).


Cat


I agree.  That is my first marriage to a T.  I jumped too quickly.  The divorce took longer than we were actually together.

They discovered easy divorce.  Good on them.  We in the Generation-X had to pay dearly.  Now people aren't even getting married anymore!
::)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3092/2746873240_5cfa94d2ac_z.jpg

I'm not seeing the problem here, Professor Falken.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3092/2746873240_5cfa94d2ac_z.jpg

I'm not seeing the problem here, Professor Falken.


That's what I mean about Generation-X.  When everything is a game, there are no more games.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/smilejap.gif

That's what I mean about Generation-X.  When everything is a game, there are no more games.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/smilejap.gif


That's deep Max, deep

That's what I mean about Generation-X.  When everything is a game, there are no more games. http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/smilejap.gif


Yeah, but when the only tool you have is a hammer (or you've finally turned everything into a game, which is another way of saying the same thing), every problem looks like hours and hours of fun!

(I could never get through Dragon's Lair without a roll of quarters.  Sorry to be a drag, Daphne, but I was always better at Defender than dating. :)

Yeah, but when the only tool you have is a hammer (or you've finally turned everything into a game, which is another way of saying the same thing), every problem looks like hours and hours of fun!

(I could never get through Dragon's Lair without a roll of quarters.  Sorry to be a drag, Daphne, but I was always better at Defender than dating. :)


I can dig it, but the geeks aren't the ones in charge.  Thugs like Rudy Giuliani get in charge.  Everybody else has to work for the biggest, meanest a-hole on the block.  Mankind does not grok Spock.  They're not logical.  They don't want to work things out with their brains, they want to push people around.

Now, you need the heart and the will to be logical as a human, but all heart and will, no mind, gives us unbridled greed and bloodthirsty machination on anybody who might not kill us first!

But the people will not respect a strong mind if they perceive the heart or the will as wanting.  Hence, Adlai Stevenson, Hubert Humphrey, Walter Mondale, and Michael Dukakis. 
::)

Caution: a few cuss words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ&feature=related

I know this is way off topic, but it's worthwhile.

I know this is way off topic, but it's worthwhile.


A TED talk is never off-topic in any thread.  To give you a counterpoint on the geeks vs. the thugs?  There's always that speech from Fight Club, which turned into the manifesto of Anonymous.

But to drag it back into marriage and tie it back to the TED talk - virtually all of my meatspace social interaction is with co-workers.  Even if I were interested in a relationship, it'd break Rule #1: Do not talk about... wait, wrong ruleset.  It'd break Work Rule #1: Don't poop where you eat.  (And even if a relationship were to occur, it'd immediately break WorkRule #2: If you're a dual-income household, it is economic suicide to have both of those incomes dependent upon the same employer.)

If we want strong family nets we need more marriage.  Not less. 

If we want strong family nets we need more marriage.  Not less. 


Well all we need is to get laid and get married,that's all. :D

I can dig it, but the geeks aren't the ones in charge.  Thugs like Rudy Giuliani get in charge.  Everybody else has to work for the biggest, meanest a-hole on the block.  Mankind does not grok Spock.  They're not logical.  They don't want to work things out with their brains, they want to push people around.

Now, you need the heart and the will to be logical as a human, but all heart and will, no mind, gives us unbridled greed and bloodthirsty machination on anybody who might not kill us first!

But the people will not respect a strong mind if they perceive the heart or the will as wanting.  Hence, Adlai Stevenson, Hubert Humphrey, Walter Mondale, and Michael Dukakis. 
::)

Caution: a few cuss words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ&feature=related

I know this is way off topic, but it's worthwhile.


Not off topic at all.  I totally see where you were going with this.  Thanks so much for sharing this Max - it was very eye opening and a little exhilirating.  ;D

A TED talk is never off-topic in any thread.  To give you a counterpoint on the geeks vs. the thugs?  There's always that speech from Fight Club, which turned into the manifesto of Anonymous.

But to drag it back into marriage and tie it back to the TED talk - virtually all of my meatspace social interaction is with co-workers.  Even if I were interested in a relationship, it'd break Rule #1: Do not talk about... wait, wrong ruleset.  It'd break Work Rule #1: Don't poop where you eat.  (And even if a relationship were to occur, it'd immediately break WorkRule #2: If you're a dual-income household, it is economic suicide to have both of those incomes dependent upon the same employer.)


Sometimes you have to stop thinking about stuff so much and just go for it.  You're always going on and on about why you can't possibly have a relationship.  Well I dare you to just go have one anyway.  :D

If we want strong family nets we need more marriage.  Not less. 


Or just more love. 

Or just more love. 


All you need is love.

All you need is love.



You actually need more than just love. You also need respect & communication.




Cat

You actually need more than just love. You also need respect & communication.




Cat


and a partner that understands.

...all true, and all part of the reasons why I refuse to partake!

It's a wonderful institution, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life in an institution.  (All I really wanted was that Pepsi...)

...all true, and all part of the reasons why I refuse to partake!

It's a wonderful institution, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life in an institution.  (All I really wanted was that Pepsi...)


And she wouldn't give you one.

You end up asking the waitress at TGI Fridays if she'll give you a...Pepsi!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/drink.gif

And she wouldn't give you one.

You end up asking the waitress at TGI Fridays if she'll give you a...Pepsi!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/drink.gif


and her phone number.

You actually need more than just love. You also need respect & communication.




Cat

Communication is pretty much the most important thing.

Communication is pretty much the most important thing.



That's what keeps a couple together.

It's a wonderful institution, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life in an institution.  (All I really wanted was that Pepsi...)


;D ;D ;D

My Parents have been married 41 years.

My Parents have been married 41 years.

Mine will celebrate their 34th anniversary this Sunday.

Mine will celebrate their 34th anniversary this Sunday.


Congratulations.  :)

That's what keeps a couple together.

It helps a whole lot.

You actually need more than just love. You also need respect & communication.


If you have love, respect and communication are a given.

If you have love, respect and communication are a given.



Not necessarily.



Cat

Not necessarily.

So if you love someone, you wouldn't naturally want to respect or communicate with them?

So if you love someone, you wouldn't naturally want to respect or communicate with them?


I think she means the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.  plenty of abusive husbands love their wives but they still beat them.. that's their form of communication and it's very disrespectful.

stalkers profess to love their targets yet they stalk them and force them to live in a climate of fear and ultimately end up hurting them.


I've seen plenty of people who are "in love" yet they argue and belittle each other... that's how they communicate...


people who love their spouses yet cheat on their spouses are disrespecting them and also failing to communicate whatever their needs are....


those are just a few examples..... 

So if you love someone, you wouldn't naturally want to respect or communicate with them?



Good point. However, you can love someone but that person can't or won't communicate with you. And also, that person may not respect you. I am talking from personal experience here-with my first marriage. I couldn't talk to him about ANYTHING. He would always say, "I'm not interested"-in other words, he wasn't interested in ME. He once said that he didn't respect me-in front of some friends. They both couldn't believe that he said that and said that would be a relationship ender if they didn't respect each other. But, I was TOO STUPID to realize it-at least for another few more years after that.


I am so lucky because after having one of the worst marriage, I now have one of the best. Sometimes I wonder how I got so lucky.



Cat

I think she means the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.  plenty of abusive husbands love their wives but they still beat them.. that's their form of communication and it's very disrespectful.

stalkers profess to love their targets yet they stalk them and force them to live in a climate of fear and ultimately end up hurting them.


I've seen plenty of people who are "in love" yet they argue and belittle each other... that's how they communicate...


people who love their spouses yet cheat on their spouses are disrespecting them and also failing to communicate whatever their needs are....


those are just a few examples..... 


They are good examples, snoz, and well thought out but, in my mind, I certainly don't think stalkers, abusive spouses and cheaters love their partners/objects of desire. They just think they do.

Just to make sure, I want to differentiate between the terms 'love' and being 'in love'. It might sound like a matter of semantics but they are very different things to me. This idea may stem from my religious upbringing.

Good point. However, you can love someone but that person can't or won't communicate with you. And also, that person may not respect you. I am talking from personal experience here-with my first marriage. I couldn't talk to him about ANYTHING. He would always say, "I'm not interested"-in other words, he wasn't interested in ME. He once said that he didn't respect me-in front of some friends. They both couldn't believe that he said that and said that would be a relationship ender if they didn't respect each other. But, I was TOO STUPID to realize it-at least for another few more years after that.

I am so lucky because after having one of the worst marriage, I now have one of the best. Sometimes I wonder how I got so lucky.


I'm sorry, Cat, if I was misunderstanding but when I said 'love, respect and communication is a given' I meant from a partner point of view rather than a personal one. I know that people love, respect and try to communicate with people that don't love them. My main point was that if your ex-husband wasn't respecting you or interested in anything you had to say, I would call him a liar if he said he loved you because to love someone, respect and communication is part of the love 'package' and not an extra upgrade. That was the angle I was going for. :)

Wonder how you got lucky? There is no point in wondering about the good in life. It is what it is and meant to be.  8)

If you have love, respect and communication are a given.


But if none are given,there's gonna be a problem.

Good point. However, you can love someone but that person can't or won't communicate with you. And also, that person may not respect you. I am talking from personal experience here-with my first marriage. I couldn't talk to him about ANYTHING. He would always say, "I'm not interested"-in other words, he wasn't interested in ME. He once said that he didn't respect me-in front of some friends. They both couldn't believe that he said that and said that would be a relationship ender if they didn't respect each other. But, I was TOO STUPID to realize it-at least for another few more years after that.


Whoa! You're anything but stupid, Cat!  That poor fellow had some serious issues but it's so hard to bail once you are married.

I can't speak for you, but speaking for myself, I suffer from low self-esteem.  I ended up in relationships with women who also had low self-esteem.  It's a cliche, but it's true, if you (as in one) doesn't respect yourself,  it's going to be hard to respect your intimate partner. I found fault in the women I dated very quickly and I was just as quick to express it.  So my relationships tended to spiral down into a frustrated demise with both of us feeling bitter in the end. 

Whoa! You're anything but stupid, Cat!  That poor fellow had some serious issues but it's so hard to bail once you are married.

I can't speak for you, but speaking for myself, I suffer from low self-esteem.  I ended up in relationships with women who also had low self-esteem.  It's a cliche, but it's true, if you (as in one) doesn't respect yourself,  it's going to be hard to respect your intimate partner. I found fault in the women I dated very quickly and I was just as quick to express it.  So my relationships tended to spiral down into a frustrated demise with both of us feeling bitter in the end. 


So what do you do as far as getting a girlfriend? ???

Whoa! You're anything but stupid, Cat!  That poor fellow had some serious issues but it's so hard to bail once you are married.

I can't speak for you, but speaking for myself, I suffer from low self-esteem.  I ended up in relationships with women who also had low self-esteem.  It's a cliche, but it's true, if you (as in one) doesn't respect yourself,  it's going to be hard to respect your intimate partner. I found fault in the women I dated very quickly and I was just as quick to express it.  So my relationships tended to spiral down into a frustrated demise with both of us feeling bitter in the end. 



Awww, thanks Max. Karma for your kind words. Truth be told, I had EXTREMELY low self-esteem. It is an issue that I still fight with even though it is not as bad as it once was. The reason I married my first husband? Because he asked me to. No sh!t. I was 19 years old and here was this guy who wanted to married ME-or so I thought. He wanted to marry me because he knew that he could manipulate me-and that he did for 6 years. For the longest time, I thought the problems in our marriage was all my fault-so he used to tell me all the time. And I believed him. He once lost his keys at work and he did blame me because I had the spare keys and I was across town and he couldn't get a hold of me. It took me 6 years to find my strength but I did find it and I left him. He insisted that I left him for someone else because otherwise that would mean that he would have had done something wrong. I told him that I did leave him for someone else, and her name is "Cat"-remember her? He just couldn't fathom the concept. 

After my marriage ended, it took me a long time to recommit myself. I didn't want to fall into the same trap I fell into the first time around. I was determined to learn from my mistake. It is not like I didn't WANT another relationship. During this time, I read romance novel after romance novel, dreaming of some knight in shinning armor would come and sweep me off of my feet. But when it came to reality, the guys who were in my life just wasn't that knight I was looking for-and I didn't want to settle-like I did the first time around. I had offers -and I even lived with a guy for a few years. People used to ask us if we were going to get married and we would say, "Yes, but not to each other." It was a strange relationship that didn't really have any closure-but that is a different story.

After that, I spent time alone-A LOT of time alone. I may have dated once or twice but nothing really serious. This was the time when I went back to school. I kept a journal. And I did A LOT of healing. The journal really helped with the healing process. It was during this period when I met Carlos. By the time we started dating, I was ready. If we had connected 5 years earlier, I wouldn't have been ready-I would have been totally messed up that he probably wouldn't have given me a second glance. We took it slow-dated for 4 years before I moved in with him and we lived together for 5 years before getting married. There was no rush. We both felt, if it was meant to be, it will happen-and it did. I think that may be the problem with a lot of relationships-the RUSH.


BTW, the funniest marriage proposal I had was a guy from Nicaragua who wanted to have U.S. citizenship-he was kicked out the U.S. and was living in Canada at the time. He asked the guy I was living with to ask me if I would marry him and he would pay me. When I was told, I just laughed. I did say not to tell the guy that I laughed but just say that I said no.



Cat 

Awww, thanks Max. Karma for your kind words. Truth be told, I had EXTREMELY low self-esteem. It is an issue that I still fight with even though it is not as bad as it once was. The reason I married my first husband? Because he asked me to. No sh!t. I was 19 years old and here was this guy who wanted to married ME-or so I thought. He wanted to marry me because he knew that he could manipulate me-and that he did for 6 years. For the longest time, I thought the problems in our marriage was all my fault-so he used to tell me all the time. And I believed him. He once lost his keys at work and he did blame me because I had the spare keys and I was across town and he couldn't get a hold of me. It took me 6 years to find my strength but I did find it and I left him. He insisted that I left him for someone else because otherwise that would mean that he would have had done something wrong. I told him that I did leave him for someone else, and her name is "Cat"-remember her? He just couldn't fathom the concept. 

After my marriage ended, it took me a long time to recommit myself. I didn't want to fall into the same trap I fell into the first time around. I was determined to learn from my mistake. It is not like I didn't WANT another relationship. During this time, I read romance novel after romance novel, dreaming of some knight in shinning armor would come and sweep me off of my feet. But when it came to reality, the guys who were in my life just wasn't that knight I was looking for-and I didn't want to settle-like I did the first time around. I had offers -and I even lived with a guy for a few years. People used to ask us if we were going to get married and we would say, "Yes, but not to each other." It was a strange relationship that didn't really have any closure-but that is a different story.

After that, I spent time alone-A LOT of time alone. I may have dated once or twice but nothing really serious. This was the time when I went back to school. I kept a journal. And I did A LOT of healing. The journal really helped with the healing process. It was during this period when I met Carlos. By the time we started dating, I was ready. If we had connected 5 years earlier, I wouldn't have been ready-I would have been totally messed up that he probably wouldn't have given me a second glance. We took it slow-dated for 4 years before I moved in with him and we lived together for 5 years before getting married. There was no rush. We both felt, if it was meant to be, it will happen-and it did. I think that may be the problem with a lot of relationships-the RUSH.

BTW, the funniest marriage proposal I had was a guy from Nicaragua who wanted to have U.S. citizenship-he was kicked out the U.S. and was living in Canada at the time. He asked the guy I was living with to ask me if I would marry him and he would pay me. When I was told, I just laughed. I did say not to tell the guy that I laughed but just say that I said no.


I am sorry to read this, Cat. I think everybody has self-esteem issues at some point. With me it is my battle with food (guilt after gluttony), with some it could be getting older, with other people it could be a compulsion to control the family or even themselves etc...The real problems occur when these trenchant issues interfere in other areas of life like relationships like they did with yours. Your ex certainly does sound like a bully and used you as a metaphorical punchbag for his own failings. I find it ironic that he would blame you for him losing the keys because it shows his self-esteem is probably worse than yours.

I am sorry to read this, Cat. I think everybody has self-esteem issues at some point. With me it is my battle with food (guilt after gluttony), with some it could be getting older, with other people it could be a compulsion to control the family or even themselves etc...The real problems occur when these trenchant issues interfere in other areas of life like relationships like they did with yours. Your ex certainly does sound like a bully and used you as a metaphorical punchbag for his own failings. I find it ironic that he would blame you for him losing the keys because it shows his self-esteem is probably worse than yours.



Thanks, Bobby. My ex was a classic "belittle the other person to make myself feel big" person. I kick myself for ALLOWING him to do that to me. But, in a way, I am grateful because of what it has taught me. When I was finding my strength, I lived by the adage, "That which does not break you, makes you stronger" and because of what I went through with my ex, I am VERY strong today. But, there are times when those self-esteem issues do raise their heads again and come back to haunt me.



Cat

Thanks, Bobby. My ex was a classic "belittle the other person to make myself feel big" person.


He sounds like my dad, whose emotional development was arrested at about ten!  Imagine an adult-sized ten-year-old who was say smarter than you.  That was my dad.  Really scary sh*t sometimes!
:o

Looking out on the morning rain, I used to feel uninspired
and when I knew I'd have to face another day, Lord it'd made me feel so tired.
Before the day I met him, life was so unkind, his love was the key to my peace of mind.

When my soul was in the lost and found, he came along to claim it.
I didn't know just what was wrong with me, til his kiss helped me name it.
Now, I'm no longer doubtful, of what I'm living for... cause if I make him happy, I don't need to do more.



Marriage sure as hell isn't easy, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't... Even in great marriages there is ebb and flow...
All that I can say is... when it works... it's marvelous ... and it sometimes take alot of work to get there.

Looking out on the morning rain, I used to feel uninspired
and when I knew I'd have to face another day, Lord it'd made me feel so tired.
Before the day I met him, life was so unkind, his love was the key to my peace of mind.

When my soul was in the lost and found, he came along to claim it.
I didn't know just what was wrong with me, til his kiss helped me name it.
Now, I'm no longer doubtful, of what I'm living for... cause if I make him happy, I don't need to do more.



Marriage sure as hell isn't easy, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't... Even in great marriages there is ebb and flow...
All that I can say is... when it works... it's marvelous ... and it sometimes take alot of work to get there.



We've all seen those old couples who always quarrel.  I used to wonder why they stayed together all those years.  I finally figured out quarreling is a kind of affection for them.  Not ideal, but better than growing old all alone!
:)

We've all seen those old couples who always quarrel.  I used to wonder why they stayed together all those years.  I finally figured out quarreling is a kind of affection for them.  Not ideal, but better than growing old all alone!
:)


I think that is the kind of marriage my parents have.  I never could understand it.  Sometimes they can get downright nasty with each other.  I think I took some of that into my adulthood and it took alot of maturing to form my own warped sense of values.  ;D  They like to use me as a sounding board also, one against the other, and I would, in turn, get upset and be miserable until the man that is now my husband helped me to understand what was going on and how to remove myself from the equation.  I'm much more sane (?) now.  :D ;)

We've all seen those old couples who always quarrel.  I used to wonder why they stayed together all those years.  I finally figured out quarreling is a kind of affection for them.  Not ideal, but better than growing old all alone!
:)


My parents have been together 41 years and they fight like Archie And Edith. ;D

We've all seen those old couples who always quarrel.  I used to wonder why they stayed together all those years.  I finally figured out quarreling is a kind of affection for them.  Not ideal, but better than growing old all alone!
:)



My sister & her husband are like this and they just celebrated their 25th anniversary. However, I don't think they are going to last much longer because of some recent events which I don't want to get into right now. (And no, it has nothing to do with one cheating on the other.)



Cat

My sister & her husband are like this and they just celebrated their 25th anniversary. However, I don't think they are going to last much longer because of some recent events which I don't want to get into right now. (And no, it has nothing to do with one cheating on the other.)



Cat


It's sad to see a marriage last 25 years and then end in divorce.  I read an article once about an elderly couple.  He was 93.  She was 90.  The'd been married for 63 years.  Their grounds for divorce was "irreconcilable differences."

I thought, "Well, you can't say they didn't try!"
;D

It's sad to see a marriage last 25 years and then end in divorce.  I read an article once about an elderly couple.  He was 93.  She was 90.  The'd been married for 63 years.  Their grounds for divorce was "irreconcilable differences."

I thought, "Well, you can't say they didn't try!"
;D



Yeah, it is sad when a marriage ends after 25 years but sometimes it can be a good thing. If Carlos' first marriage didn't end (which it did after 25 years), I wouldn't be here right now.



Cat

Listening to your wife = good thing
Playing computer games and having Led Zeppelin blast through ear plugs while your wife talks, and you nod your head every 20 seconds and say "That's right, honey" = not so good

So: Listen to the Doors instead.  ;)

Listening to your wife = good thing
Playing computer games and having Led Zeppelin blast through ear plugs while your wife talks, and you nod your head every 20 seconds and say "That's right, honey" = not so good

So: Listen to the Doors instead.  ;)




Well, not if you start singing "Show me the way to the next little girl...," she may get a bit upset with you.




Cat

Well, not if you start singing "Show me the way to the next little girl...," she may get a bit upset with you.




Cat

Can't you see that I am not afraid.  ;)

Listening to your wife = good thing
Playing computer games and having Led Zeppelin blast through ear plugs while your wife talks, and you nod your head every 20 seconds and say "That's right, honey" = not so good

So: Listen to the Doors instead.  ;)



;D ;D ;D

My gramps used to just turn down his hearing aide and let my nana rant and rave...or so I suspected!

Thanks, Bobby. My ex was a classic "belittle the other person to make myself feel big" person. I kick myself for ALLOWING him to do that to me. But, in a way, I am grateful because of what it has taught me. When I was finding my strength, I lived by the adage, "That which does not break you, makes you stronger" and because of what I went through with my ex, I am VERY strong today. But, there are times when those self-esteem issues do raise their heads again and come back to haunt me.


Yes, I understand those negative types and, unfortunately, you don't have to be married to one to bump into them. As you say, in a way it is good to face those type of people in your life sometimes because it shows you what type of person you can be when the going gets tough. As for the self-esteem thing, I know you are too good a person to let something like that get to you. It is so easy for us to sell ourselves short only because we know ourselves better than anybody else.

Re-entering the thread...  Trying to look at advice, opinions, different ways of looking at it.

We have hit a very rocky road.  No cheating, no extra marital affairs, and not for lack of love.  There have been added stresses, and financial stresses I admittedly have never handled well (from years ago babysitting at 10 to hopefully come up for the property tax for my Mother's house), as well as added stress from my work.  Being that I work at school as a teacher, I cannot vent these stresses at work.  They come home.  I went to college and became independent so I would not have "financial worries" I did of my youth (not taking my asthma med's as needed because of the extra burden on my mom).  I have found myself in the same sort of situation (thinking about dropping my allergy shots, so it is not the added $100 bill every month).  I have given up most of what I am, stayed home all summer so not to spend the money on gas, etc...  I do not get creative with decorating (again not trying to spend $'s) and I have not been on a vacation that was not fair related in 5 years, and never prior to that). Even with all of this, we are living pay check to paycheck. 

Earlier this spring I was having a conversation with Hubby's sister and hubby was there.  We were talking about show cattle, and I was at a particularly bitter moment, and said I hated them they could all be sold (my real feelings btw; except for my daughter).  I said right then "I was not willing to let my vacation go to pay for show feed for damn cattle).  My husband assured me my paycheck dud not go towards feed.  Well here we are,  no vacation.  And a new $2500 heifer.  Cattle last year did almost pay for their feed almost...  I infOrmed hubby, it didn't matter if it was his account or my account that the feed $'s actually came from, it was money still coming out. 

I am at an ugly spot.  I hate the cattle, I hate being in the middle of no where, I hate how his sister seems to think that she can put her voice in and mention we need to "pick up the house or yard", I hate that he makes fun of me because I am nOt comfortable walking on a gravel road instead of sidewalk.  I hate that his schedule determines everything.  I hate that he can't pull over for one "interesting spot to look around as we are driving somewhere.  I hate having to plan every event, and I am told I don't do anything spontaneous (yet when I try, he has plans to help his family with some sort or another).  I hate how he gets out of cooking because he says "he can't", yet when he needs help with cattle I have always tried.  I hate how he knows I can change a light fixture to a ceiling fan, but he won't fix the lawn more tire so I don't have to push it to the air compressor and air it up everytime it comes to mow.  I hate how he says he is overwhelmed by the 6 paint choices I have given him to paint a room, but he can't see that I picked those 6 out of thousands of choices.  I hate how he can never get a thing out of the freezer, but when I ask him what's for supper, he ask's me I don't know did you get anything out..

I am sorry, I just feel like he never listens.  I want a warm fuzzy Moment and I just get (I'm here, I'm faithful, and i don't beat you moments).  I want a date night (I have been promised one since 4th of July), I want someone who talks (when dating we spent hours, actually falling asleep on the phone conversations). 

I know I love him, but I think I just have gotten lost in the "farm wife" scenario, and I Hate it now.  I hate it now, if I can't have anything of what I want to be or have, why am I still trying to make things work.  Because of my upbringing, I know I can survive, I know I can get things done.  If I have todo them all anyway, and still not have what I want...  I might as well be single. 

I guess it is true, you can't take the city girl out of me even though I am very good at playing the country girl!  I just find it ridiculous to think that I am living pay check to paycheck, and have not spent more than $500 on me this year, we can't afford beef in our freezer, and I still have a new $2500 heifer in a barn being tied up, washed, brushed, and eating..    Yep I might as well name her vacation...  And my husband doesn't see the craziness of it. 

I am sorry, I needed to vent.  I am sure it is not making all sense, typing on the iPhone now.  Trying to stay off computer as that was the reasoning why my husband can't communicate (you're always on the computer; yep when your on the tv).  Any Whoo. That is it, before I start I new rambling rant! 

Re-entering the thread...  Trying to look at advice, opinions, different ways of looking at it.

We have hit a very rocky road.  No cheating, no extra marital affairs, and not for lack of love.  There have been added stresses, and financial stresses I admittedly have never handled well (from years ago babysitting at 10 to hopefully come up for the property tax for my Mother's house), as well as added stress from my work.  Being that I work at school as a teacher, I cannot vent these stresses at work.  They come home.  I went to college and became independent so I would not have "financial worries" I did of my youth (not taking my asthma med's as needed because of the extra burden on my mom).  I have found myself in the same sort of situation (thinking about dropping my allergy shots, so it is not the added $100 bill every month).  I have given up most of what I am, stayed home all summer so not to spend the money on gas, etc...  I do not get creative with decorating (again not trying to spend $'s) and I have not been on a vacation that was not fair related in 5 years, and never prior to that). Even with all of this, we are living pay check to paycheck. 

Earlier this spring I was having a conversation with Hubby's sister and hubby was there.  We were talking about show cattle, and I was at a particularly bitter moment, and said I hated them they could all be sold (my real feelings btw; except for my daughter).  I said right then "I was not willing to let my vacation go to pay for show feed for damn cattle).  My husband assured me my paycheck dud not go towards feed.  Well here we are,  no vacation.  And a new $2500 heifer.  Cattle last year did almost pay for their feed almost...  I infOrmed hubby, it didn't matter if it was his account or my account that the feed $'s actually came from, it was money still coming out. 

I am at an ugly spot.  I hate the cattle, I hate being in the middle of no where, I hate how his sister seems to think that she can put her voice in and mention we need to "pick up the house or yard", I hate that he makes fun of me because I am nOt comfortable walking on a gravel road instead of sidewalk.  I hate that his schedule determines everything.  I hate that he can't pull over for one "interesting spot to look around as we are driving somewhere.  I hate having to plan every event, and I am told I don't do anything spontaneous (yet when I try, he has plans to help his family with some sort or another).  I hate how he gets out of cooking because he says "he can't", yet when he needs help with cattle I have always tried.  I hate how he knows I can change a light fixture to a ceiling fan, but he won't fix the lawn more tire so I don't have to push it to the air compressor and air it up everytime it comes to mow.  I hate how he says he is overwhelmed by the 6 paint choices I have given him to paint a room, but he can't see that I picked those 6 out of thousands of choices.  I hate how he can never get a thing out of the freezer, but when I ask him what's for supper, he ask's me I don't know did you get anything out..

I am sorry, I just feel like he never listens.  I want a warm fuzzy Moment and I just get (I'm here, I'm faithful, and i don't beat you moments).  I want a date night (I have been promised one since 4th of July), I want someone who talks (when dating we spent hours, actually falling asleep on the phone conversations). 

I know I love him, but I think I just have gotten lost in the "farm wife" scenario, and I Hate it now.  I hate it now, if I can't have anything of what I want to be or have, why am I still trying to make things work.  Because of my upbringing, I know I can survive, I know I can get things done.  If I have todo them all anyway, and still not have what I want...  I might as well be single. 

I guess it is true, you can't take the city girl out of me even though I am very good at playing the country girl!  I just find it ridiculous to think that I am living pay check to paycheck, and have not spent more than $500 on me this year, we can't afford beef in our freezer, and I still have a new $2500 heifer in a barn being tied up, washed, brushed, and eating..    Yep I might as well name her vacation...  And my husband doesn't see the craziness of it. 

I am sorry, I needed to vent.  I am sure it is not making all sense, typing on the iPhone now.  Trying to stay off computer as that was the reasoning why my husband can't communicate (you're always on the computer; yep when your on the tv).  Any Whoo. That is it, before I start I new rambling rant!



WOW!!!

((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))

Have you told him what you just wrote here? You could also write him a letter if he won't listen. Somehow you need to get it through to him that if things don't change-AND SOON, you are history.

Oh and DO NOT give up your allergy meds!



Cat

That sux Sami.  :(

I was sort of thinking the same thing as Cat...but I was thinking open this on the computer and hopefully he'll read it.  :-\\

Aww Sami, sad to hear that.
I know of so many marriages where it's usually the woman making all the sacrifices and the guy just doesn't want to know anything and pretend everything is fine. From my experience, I have found husbands to be a hell of a lot more self-centered than the wives, (not always, but mostly).
You need a date night, you need communication. He needs to speak with you and communicate with you in YOUR language of love.

You probably have already (many times  ::)) but you need to seriously tell him how you feel, and the consequences if he doesn't act or listen. I'm with Cat & Q, show him what you just wrote or write another similar letter, maybe a even more personal one, and show it to him.

Re-entering the thread...  Trying to look at advice, opinions, different ways of looking at it.

We have hit a very rocky road.  No cheating, no extra marital affairs, and not for lack of love.  There have been added stresses, and financial stresses I admittedly have never handled well (from years ago babysitting at 10 to hopefully come up for the property tax for my Mother's house), as well as added stress from my work.  Being that I work at school as a teacher, I cannot vent these stresses at work.  They come home.  I went to college and became independent so I would not have "financial worries" I did of my youth (not taking my asthma med's as needed because of the extra burden on my mom).  I have found myself in the same sort of situation (thinking about dropping my allergy shots, so it is not the added $100 bill every month).  I have given up most of what I am, stayed home all summer so not to spend the money on gas, etc...  I do not get creative with decorating (again not trying to spend $'s) and I have not been on a vacation that was not fair related in 5 years, and never prior to that). Even with all of this, we are living pay check to paycheck. 

Earlier this spring I was having a conversation with Hubby's sister and hubby was there.  We were talking about show cattle, and I was at a particularly bitter moment, and said I hated them they could all be sold (my real feelings btw; except for my daughter).  I said right then "I was not willing to let my vacation go to pay for show feed for damn cattle).  My husband assured me my paycheck dud not go towards feed.  Well here we are,  no vacation.  And a new $2500 heifer.  Cattle last year did almost pay for their feed almost...  I infOrmed hubby, it didn't matter if it was his account or my account that the feed $'s actually came from, it was money still coming out. 

I am at an ugly spot.  I hate the cattle, I hate being in the middle of no where, I hate how his sister seems to think that she can put her voice in and mention we need to "pick up the house or yard", I hate that he makes fun of me because I am nOt comfortable walking on a gravel road instead of sidewalk.  I hate that his schedule determines everything.  I hate that he can't pull over for one "interesting spot to look around as we are driving somewhere.  I hate having to plan every event, and I am told I don't do anything spontaneous (yet when I try, he has plans to help his family with some sort or another).  I hate how he gets out of cooking because he says "he can't", yet when he needs help with cattle I have always tried.  I hate how he knows I can change a light fixture to a ceiling fan, but he won't fix the lawn more tire so I don't have to push it to the air compressor and air it up everytime it comes to mow.  I hate how he says he is overwhelmed by the 6 paint choices I have given him to paint a room, but he can't see that I picked those 6 out of thousands of choices.  I hate how he can never get a thing out of the freezer, but when I ask him what's for supper, he ask's me I don't know did you get anything out..

I am sorry, I just feel like he never listens.  I want a warm fuzzy Moment and I just get (I'm here, I'm faithful, and i don't beat you moments).  I want a date night (I have been promised one since 4th of July), I want someone who talks (when dating we spent hours, actually falling asleep on the phone conversations). 

I know I love him, but I think I just have gotten lost in the "farm wife" scenario, and I Hate it now.  I hate it now, if I can't have anything of what I want to be or have, why am I still trying to make things work.  Because of my upbringing, I know I can survive, I know I can get things done.  If I have todo them all anyway, and still not have what I want...  I might as well be single. 

I guess it is true, you can't take the city girl out of me even though I am very good at playing the country girl!  I just find it ridiculous to think that I am living pay check to paycheck, and have not spent more than $500 on me this year, we can't afford beef in our freezer, and I still have a new $2500 heifer in a barn being tied up, washed, brushed, and eating..    Yep I might as well name her vacation...  And my husband doesn't see the craziness of it. 

I am sorry, I needed to vent.  I am sure it is not making all sense, typing on the iPhone now.  Trying to stay off computer as that was the reasoning why my husband can't communicate (you're always on the computer; yep when your on the tv).  Any Whoo. That is it, before I start I new rambling rant! 


{{{hugs}}}

You have every right to be mad.  You are giving up medicine(I have asthma I know how awful it can be), and he is buying a cow that you can't afford after hearing you say you hated them.  There is more going on here and some serious thought has to go into what is happening in your life.  Did the money come out of a joint account?  If it did you need your own separate account with your own separate allowance, even if it is 5 or 10 dollars, and you need some outside perspective if it is at all possible. 

Aww Sami, sad to hear that.
I know of so many marriages where it's usually the woman making all the sacrifices and the guy just doesn't want to know anything and pretend everything is fine. From my experience, I have found husbands to be a hell of a lot more self-centered than the wives, (not always, but mostly).
You need a date night, you need communication. He needs to speak with you and communicate with you in YOUR language of love.

You probably have already (many times  ::)) but you need to seriously tell him how you feel, and the consequences if he doesn't act or listen. I'm with Cat & Q, show him what you just wrote or write another similar letter, maybe a even more personal one, and show it to him.


Totally agree. Seems like someone is being taken for granted!  It really does takes two to make a successful marriage.... and it doesn't happen by some magic either. It's takes a lot of thought, understanding and a willingness to actively look for opportunities to do 'nice' things for your partner.

I totally agree with what everyone has said here.  You sacrificing your health for a cow is absurd.  Period.  If he can't see that, then yes, you do have some serious problems.

When I was married, my husband would tell me that things that I was upset about were stupid, and therefore he had no obligation to pay them any mind.  True.  I wonder if husbands just tend to get that way - they feel like their wives are always nagging them about something, so eventually they just tune everything out, and eventually, lose their nagging wives altogether.  And then they can't figure out what went wrong.

I know money is tight right now, but my advice to you is to figure out a way to go someplace ALONE for a few days.  Let your husband be in charge of the farm, the house, and the kids.  Let him deal with schedules and meals and all of the work that goes into being a mother.  Then see how he feels after that.  Even if you just go and stay at a friends house.  I'm serious.  He obviously just doesn't get it. 

I totally agree with what everyone has said here.  You sacrificing your health for a cow is absurd.  Period.  If he can't see that, then yes, you do have some serious problems.

When I was married, my husband would tell me that things that I was upset about were stupid, and therefore he had no obligation to pay them any mind.  True.  I wonder if husbands just tend to get that way - they feel like their wives are always nagging them about something, so eventually they just tune everything out, and eventually, lose their nagging wives altogether.  And then they can't figure out what went wrong.

I know money is tight right now, but my advice to you is to figure out a way to go someplace ALONE for a few days.  Let your husband be in charge of the farm, the house, and the kids.  Let him deal with schedules and meals and all of the work that goes into being a mother.  Then see how he feels after that.  Even if you just go and stay at a friends house.  I'm serious.  He obviously just doesn't get it.



Good idea. One time during my first marriage, I went on strike. He took it as a joke and told everyone at his work that I was on strike. I REFUSED to pick up after him. To my surprise, he actually picked up after himself. But, of course the marriage didn't last too much longer after that.


I know I am really lucky. I have a husband who treats me with love, kindness & respect. I learned from my first marriage. After that marriage went kapooie, I REFUSED to settle for another one. I have had some offers but I KNEW there were totally wrong. I held out and now I am being rewarded everyday. I wish every marriage could be like Carlos & I. Yeah, we do have our disagreements. We sort of joke about our semi-annual disagreement. But then we kiss and make-up.  ;D But, we try to not to do what the other was upset about again.



Cat

Thank you everyone.  We are trying to work through it.  I do not know what the future holds. 

I definitely have my faults, if I see something wrong. I try and fix it (I.e. finances, I stop spending in anything frivolous for me).  I always hear every comment made as criticism, so I try to figure out how to change/make it better.  I internalize everything.  I feeeeel to my bones, when I am hurt my heart literally hurts (their feels like bands in my heart and throat are literally squeezing it shut).  I try and be what everyone expects.  I moved here to be with my husband, he likes to show cattle, I have taken over washing, rinsing, grooming, (birthing of cows), to fit in with my husband.  I did not grow up with it, I am not comfortable with them, but I jump in and do it because that is who I am.  When the cattle act up in the show ring on my daughter, my first reaction is "what could/should I have done better/different.  (not it is an animal and today was just an off day that it was going to piss in your shoes.".

Why am I like this.  Why do I feel I never fit in?  Why does my gravy always have to be "too lumpy, too thick, too thin". Why can't u just think it is homemade and made with love. 

I feel alone, yes my husband needs to talk more.  But he asks why I have to be perfect at everything, he never feels he does it right.  I always expect more out if myself, so where does that leave him.  I feel I am never perfect, I am just a human (a person) and things can always be better.  He has confidence that I could do anything, with the right resources and planning.  Me I am just a person, but I definitely know I can survive in my own ( making him feel he does nothing for me).

Maybe I don't know how to do a relationship since I never experienced one (my dad left when I was 7).  Maybe my mom tainted me when she said "be a good girl while your dad is here so maybe he will come back".  Maybe I have always thought I could be better.  I don't know.  I know I live him.  But I am not sure how to let go of the outside forces.

I feel alone.  I feel I have no where to go. And I have no method of venting.  I used to walk, and walk and walk...  I grew up next to a state park and cemetery and in town.  Lots of quiet places to think, walk and sidewalks and street lights.  I am now in the middle of no where, have to drive somewhere to hit a sidewalk (yes my fear if walking in gravel roads, is crazy, but there it is, I don't want to be dead in a ditch).  Ugggg.  I am soo messed up right now.

Maybe I don't know how to do a relationship since I never experienced one (my dad left when I was 7).  Maybe my mom tainted me when she said "be a good girl while your dad is here so maybe he will come back". 



That say A LOT!  I would say it almost explains everything.  :(

That say A LOT!  I would say it almost explains everything.  :(
Will I ever get it right???

:\'( :\'( :\'(

Will I ever get it right???

:\'( :\'( :\'(


Yes.  You recognize that you have problems, and from where the problems stem.  Now you have to do the everyday crap that comes with fixing it, but that can be the hardest.  You have to see yourself in the behavior, than consciously try to alter it.  You have to say "I'll wash the cow, but you have to groom" or "I'll groom but you have to wash first".  Try something like that at least once a day, then twice, it will get better.  You have to stop and think "why am I doing this" or "This is something someone else has to do, while I do something else"  I think it may be easier than you think.  If you do everything without thinking everyone will let you do everything without thinking. I can almost guarantee at some point someone will say "I thought you liked doing this".  Start uncontrolling things you do control, that is the best way to get things under control...if you know what I mean. ;)

Will I ever get it right???

:\'( :\'( :\'(



Oh, Sami.  Danoota has excellent words of wisdom.  All I have is {{{hugs}}} and prayers for you.  You do understand that your father leaving was never your fault, right?  Your mom saying that to you just tried to push it off on you and that is so not cool. 

I feel alone, yes my husband needs to talk more.  But he asks why I have to be perfect at everything, he never feels he does it right.  I always expect more out if myself, so where does that leave him.  I feel I am never perfect, I am just a human (a person) and things can always be better.  He has confidence that I could do anything, with the right resources and planning.  Me I am just a person, but I definitely know I can survive in my own ( making him feel he does nothing for me).




Sounds like your husband seems a bit beat up himself.  You say he asks why you have to be perfect and he never feels he does it right.  Why does he feel like that?  Do you tend to do things over after he has done them?  Do you criticize or maybe just make him feel as if whatever he has done isn't quite right? You went through "thousands" of paint choices, picked 6, then asked him to choose.  What's that all about?  If I was him I would be afraid to make the choice, too.  It could be he, perhaps, is overwhelmed with your quest for perfection and is afraid to get things wrong, so he just shuts down, and doesn't speak in fear of saying the wrong thing.

Will I ever get it right???

:\'( :\'( :\'(


Aww Sami, this is something I tell myself everyday. (I'm another perfectionist  :-\\)

Danoota has excellent words of wisdom, and Dag is right "You do understand that your father leaving was never your fault, right?  Your mom saying that to you just tried to push it off on you and that is so not cool."

From what you have written this morning, (to me) you are so in touch with who you are, you have a beautiful way of expressings your feelings here.  It's hard to "undo" the way we are, especially as adults, but you are obviously willing to take those steps.  You have already taken some steps here.  It's really not easy, but hang in there.

From what you have written this morning, (to me) you are so in touch with who you are, you have a beautiful way of expressings your feelings here.  It's hard to "undo" the way we are, especially as adults, but you are obviously willing to take those steps.  You have already taken some steps here.  It's really not easy, but hang in there.




Ditto  ;)

Yes.  You recognize that you have problems, and from where the problems stem.  Now you have to do the everyday crap that comes with fixing it, but that can be the hardest.  You have to see yourself in the behavior, than consciously try to alter it.  You have to say "I'll wash the cow, but you have to groom" or "I'll groom but you have to wash first".  Try something like that at least once a day, then twice, it will get better.  You have to stop and think "why am I doing this" or "This is something someone else has to do, while I do something else"  I think it may be easier than you think.  If you do everything without thinking everyone will let you do everything without thinking. I can almost guarantee at some point someone will say "I thought you liked doing this".  Start uncontrolling things you do control, that is the best way to get things under control...if you know what I mean. ;)
I guess this is what I started to do, when I said I wasn't taking care of the show heifer...  I got the rolly eyes.  I also stated clearly when it was time to go pick up the heifer, that if all that was happening was driving 3 hours to go get it, load it and driving 3 hours home.  I did not want to go.  I was told no... that wouldn't happen.  Well his sister watched our youngest and did not realize how long it would take (because my husband said we would be back this afternoon - we did not get left till 1) and yep that is exactly what we did.  WHY DID I Go....  I feel like when I say things, I do not get heard, or they are just discounted...  What I say has no value.

I keep trying.  I am not perfect, I know this.  I am only human.  We all like things a certain way.  I try not to but it, but I am always asked to fix things once they are messed up.

Oh, Sami.  Danoota has excellent words of wisdom.  All I have is {{{hugs}}} and prayers for you.  You do understand that your father leaving was never your fault, right?  Your mom saying that to you just tried to push it off on you and that is so not cool.
Yes, I know that it was not my fault....  And even if he stayed, it would have been a much worse house (the yelling, hitting, screaming fights with my hands over my ears standing in between protecting my mom)

My mother has her own demons, as her mother before her. (I get the "never being good enough" honestly, but I don't expect others to do it for me.  I just make it happen) It is probably why I work so hard to keep it all together... 

Sounds like your husband seems a bit beat up himself.  You say he asks why you have to be perfect and he never feels he does it right.  Why does he feel like that?  Do you tend to do things over after he has done them?  Do you criticize or maybe just make him feel as if whatever he has done isn't quite right? You went through "thousands" of paint choices, picked 6, then asked him to choose.  What's that all about?  If I was him I would be afraid to make the choice, too.  It could be he, perhaps, is overwhelmed with your quest for perfection and is afraid to get things wrong, so he just shuts down, and doesn't speak in fear of saying the wrong thing.
You are right.  My husband has the attitude he "can't do anything."  I believe he can do anything if he wants to hard enough.  I am just a person, and I learned how to on my own.  He came to me this way. 

My husband does not fix cars (his father is very mechanically inclined, and never took the time to let Jas fumble with the tools).  My husband doesn't cook, if he wants to eat he can survive on frozen pizzas.  My husband only knows how to throw laundry in the wash, not how to sort it and etc....  (with 2 young girls, and dress clothes this does not always work out the best).  He doesn't fix things, if something is broke he buys a new one/hires someone (hard on the budget).  He doesn't build things (unless being forced to recently).  He can't figure out how to load the dishwasher.  Really he does not attempt anything other than his job (where they have to do it his way), sort cattle, build fence, and watch tv. 

I know I have probably redone it, or fixed it, or criticized.  Heck, I do it to myself (if I see a better way to do it, I change it).  He just does not do it. 

He has criticizes me all the same.  I try to hear and change.  Example;  The way I like to do laundry...  when things are dry, bring them out to the living room fold (can watch some t.v) and get job done.  Sort them and put them in their respective piles.  Everyone can pick up the piles and put them away.  Hubby hates the laundry in the living room (not what my object was, for they were to be put away).  I put mine and the girls away (used to, girls are old enough to put their laundry away).  I found this much more manageable.  Piles where small and things did not build up in a basket.  Hubby wants it all to stay in laundry room and in baskets.  Now the baskets are overflowing, no one puts them away because we can't lift them without strain, and everyone is just picking up (somewhat wrinkled) clothes from the basket.  This is how his mother did it, but she was a stay at home and she put it away for them.  I am not that good/nice.  I have done the laundry, folded it, he can put his away.

If we need the house painted, he has it hired done.  He "doesn't like to paint".  I do all the trim.  He just is the in between spaces.  I try and save money doing it myself and he gives me the "I don't like to" schpeel.  I stay quiet. Now we are to this point. 

He can't sort the girls clothes, cause he doesn't know who's are who's...  He used to make hamburgers, for himself (now I am not a hamburger fan, but I ate them - granted he made them once -  before we were married) I would love someone to take the initiative and make a burger.  He can't start a charcoal grill, because they never had one growing up.  WHY does he not see he can learn.  I hear the can'ts all the time.  When I hear can't, I am basically hearing I don't want to.  WHO the hell want's to do lots of things, we do it cause we have to. 

I finally told him, I can't do the cattle I didn't have them growing up....  this last argument.  It was like a light bulb moment.  Why can I do it, but he can't? 

From what you have written this morning, (to me) you are so in touch with who you are, you have a beautiful way of expressings your feelings here.  It's hard to "undo" the way we are, especially as adults, but you are obviously willing to take those steps.  You have already taken some steps here.  It's really not easy, but hang in there.
But am I losing who I am???? 

The things my husband says he loves about me, my independent "can do" attitude...  are some of the things that are wearing me thin.  I can do things, but I need help.  I need someone willing to help.

I will repeat what so many have already said, listen to Danoota's words of wisdom.


Also, why not try to make up a chart of all the tasks that need to be done and then as a family, sit down and try to divvy them up-include the girls in that.



Cat

My sister-in-law (hubbys sister) has confronted me, about the fact that she is sick and worried about the state that I am putting her brother and nieces through. 

Sister in laws message:
"Maybe not my place to ask. I'm really worried. What exactly are "changes"? Job, location, marriage? I agree that you have to be yourself. But your happiness affects my nieces and my brother. So what is happening?? I could care less about your job. You have given 110% and I would do that for 1 min and deal with the sheesh you have has to deal with. So if you quit, resign no big deal. But your location and your marriage that matters to me. You don't have to respond of course. However my stomach has been in knots for days wondering what is happening or going to happen." 

LIKE I am not concerned about them at all???  It tears me up, it is the hardest thing I can make.  I need help dealing with this. I am tired.  She went through a 3 year separation.  Her husband living in one place, and her in another.  I stayed out of it, because trust me I know what it is like on her husband's end - he is not surrounded by family, but she sure is.  If it is what worked best for them and their daughter, than so be it.  Their fights are ugly, with nasty name calling, and something getting broke.  I would not want that for anyone.

Yesterday's message felt like an attack...  but I tried to respond diplomatically (definitely not my best work)

"I never questioned you on your relationship... So yes it involves your niece and your brother. But more so it involves me, my husband, and my children... I am preparing all for the reality of the possible future. I have been strong, trying to hold it together, for quite sometime, keeping my feelings buried. It is eating me up on the inside. If and when it involves you I will let you know! If your brother wants to involve you , then that is his prerogative."

To which I get the following hat message, and this is what I absolutely hate about all of hubby's family...

"You're right.  And if you think people don't realize you hate your job, the farm, not living in the city and that you have hid it you are wrong. The writing is on the wall. I wish you the best..."

The "oh-well, I wash my hands of it, and you'll have to get over it" attitude.  The family's famous last words when someone is upset "Oh well, they'll get over it..."  IT infuriates me all the time, as if the problem is not theirs or a combo, it is the other person's problem.  It is soo uncaring. 

I just want out of it all...

But am I losing who I am???? 

The things my husband says he loves about me, my independent "can do" attitude...  are some of the things that are wearing me thin.  I can do things, but I need help.  I need someone willing to help.


You don't lose who you are, but you improve on what you already are.

Is there someone (friend, family member...and NOT that sister-in-law who wrote you that uncaring reply) who you can talk to in person (on the phone is OK too) about all of this?  I think you need to do that.. :-\\

You don't lose who you are, but you improve on what you already are.

Is there someone (friend, family member...and NOT that sister-in-law who wrote you that uncaring reply) who you can talk to in person (on the phone is OK too) about all of this?  I think you need to do that.. :-\\
Yep, I have been talking.  So far I have found out one of my friends was seperated and had an affair early in their relationship.  And my niece and nephew ( only 7 years younger than me) are about in the same types of predicaments, but not quite...  I guess we find out we are normal????

My hubby dealt with his sister, telling her if and when it concerned her he would let her know.  Till that point, it is me and him and our daughters.  She told him she was living the hell and did not want to see him in the same predicament.  Gee wonder how keeping her relationship issues private are going for her?   

My sister-in-law (hubbys sister) has confronted me, about the fact that she is sick and worried about the state that I am putting her brother and nieces through. 

Sister in laws message:
"Maybe not my place to ask. I'm really worried. What exactly are "changes"? Job, location, marriage? I agree that you have to be yourself. But your happiness affects my nieces and my brother. So what is happening?? I could care less about your job. You have given 110% and I would do that for 1 min and deal with the sheesh you have has to deal with. So if you quit, resign no big deal. But your location and your marriage that matters to me. You don't have to respond of course. However my stomach has been in knots for days wondering what is happening or going to happen." 

LIKE I am not concerned about them at all???  It tears me up, it is the hardest thing I can make.  I need help dealing with this. I am tired.  She went through a 3 year separation.  Her husband living in one place, and her in another.  I stayed out of it, because trust me I know what it is like on her husband's end - he is not surrounded by family, but she sure is.  If it is what worked best for them and their daughter, than so be it.  Their fights are ugly, with nasty name calling, and something getting broke.  I would not want that for anyone.

Yesterday's message felt like an attack...  but I tried to respond diplomatically (definitely not my best work)

"I never questioned you on your relationship... So yes it involves your niece and your brother. But more so it involves me, my husband, and my children... I am preparing all for the reality of the possible future. I have been strong, trying to hold it together, for quite sometime, keeping my feelings buried. It is eating me up on the inside. If and when it involves you I will let you know! If your brother wants to involve you , then that is his prerogative."

To which I get the following hat message, and this is what I absolutely hate about all of hubby's family...

"You're right.  And if you think people don't realize you hate your job, the farm, not living in the city and that you have hid it you are wrong. The writing is on the wall. I wish you the best..."

The "oh-well, I wash my hands of it, and you'll have to get over it" attitude.  The family's famous last words when someone is upset "Oh well, they'll get over it..."  IT infuriates me all the time, as if the problem is not theirs or a combo, it is the other person's problem.  It is soo uncaring. 

I just want out of it all...


It would be best to stop all dialogue with her about the subject.  It is between you and your husband and you children. 

Sounds to me like you are facing a crossroad in life. Whatever decision you make will probably affect the course of your life and the decision cannot be taken lightly, I know you feel stuck in all this & desire some form of change from your current state of life (which sukks for you now), but take your time to make that decision.  Hope you will be able to have a serious talk with your husband, and have some kind of support (and a listening ear) from another person (friend/family member) close to you during this trial.

It would be best to stop all dialogue with her about the subject.  It is between you and your husband and you children.
That was the point I was trying to make to her and that my husband later reiterated to her...

You are right.  My husband has the attitude he "can't do anything."  I believe he can do anything if he wants to hard enough.  I am just a person, and I learned how to on my own.  He came to me this way. 

My husband does not fix cars (his father is very mechanically inclined, and never took the time to let Jas fumble with the tools).  My husband doesn't cook, if he wants to eat he can survive on frozen pizzas.  My husband only knows how to throw laundry in the wash, not how to sort it and etc....  (with 2 young girls, and dress clothes this does not always work out the best).  He doesn't fix things, if something is broke he buys a new one/hires someone (hard on the budget).  He doesn't build things (unless being forced to recently).  He can't figure out how to load the dishwasher.  Really he does not attempt anything other than his job (where they have to do it his way), sort cattle, build fence, and watch tv. 

I know I have probably redone it, or fixed it, or criticized.  Heck, I do it to myself (if I see a better way to do it, I change it).  He just does not do it. 

He has criticizes me all the same.  I try to hear and change.  Example;  The way I like to do laundry...  when things are dry, bring them out to the living room fold (can watch some t.v) and get job done.  Sort them and put them in their respective piles.  Everyone can pick up the piles and put them away.  Hubby hates the laundry in the living room (not what my object was, for they were to be put away).  I put mine and the girls away (used to, girls are old enough to put their laundry away).  I found this much more manageable.  Piles where small and things did not build up in a basket.  Hubby wants it all to stay in laundry room and in baskets.  Now the baskets are overflowing, no one puts them away because we can't lift them without strain, and everyone is just picking up (somewhat wrinkled) clothes from the basket.  This is how his mother did it, but she was a stay at home and she put it away for them.  I am not that good/nice.  I have done the laundry, folded it, he can put his away.

If we need the house painted, he has it hired done.  He "doesn't like to paint".  I do all the trim.  He just is the in between spaces.  I try and save money doing it myself and he gives me the "I don't like to" schpeel.  I stay quiet. Now we are to this point. 

He can't sort the girls clothes, cause he doesn't know who's are who's...  He used to make hamburgers, for himself (now I am not a hamburger fan, but I ate them - granted he made them once -  before we were married) I would love someone to take the initiative and make a burger.  He can't start a charcoal grill, because they never had one growing up.  WHY does he not see he can learn.  I hear the can'ts all the time.  When I hear can't, I am basically hearing I don't want to.  WHO the hell want's to do lots of things, we do it cause we have to. 

I finally told him, I can't do the cattle I didn't have them growing up....  this last argument.  It was like a light bulb moment.  Why can I do it, but he can't?


Husbands are infamous for "I can't do that." 

It's total Malarkey.

I think that if they try something new, and they don't like doing it, they mess it up or half ass it on purpose so that they can get out of ever having to do it again.  It's a total copout, and a slap in the face to their wife because it's just fine with him to have her do something unpleasant, as long as he doesn't have to.

I've seen it wayyyy too many times not to believe it wholeheartedly.

Husbands are infamous for "I can't do that." 

It's total Malarkey.

I think that if they try something new, and they don't like doing it, they mess it up or half ass it on purpose so that they can get out of ever having to do it again.  It's a total copout, and a slap in the face to their wife because it's just fine with him to have her do something unpleasant, as long as he doesn't have to.

I've seen it wayyyy too many times not to believe it wholeheartedly.


Ditto

Husbands are infamous for "I can't do that." 

It's total Malarkey.

I think that if they try something new, and they don't like doing it, they mess it up or half ass it on purpose so that they can get out of ever having to do it again.  It's a total copout, and a slap in the face to their wife because it's just fine with him to have her do something unpleasant, as long as he doesn't have to.

I've seen it wayyyy too many times not to believe it wholeheartedly.


Yep

Ditto


Yep

But you all make it seem like a negative thing or something  :D :D  (kidding)

All kidding aside, yeah. As a man, and husband for over 20 years, I also have to agree. Most of the marriages I know, the husband is somewhat like that.

I work in male dominated construction and I have come to think there are 3 kinds of husbands. Those that understand that it is a partnership(they are just wonderful), those that are confused but trying(good guys and trying), and those who think that just because they are married it doesn't mean they have to change their lives to fit a wife and family("does my wife have the right to know how much money I make?") 

God bless the first two, I don't who the heck marries(or stays married to) the third.  ::)

My father is sick and has really bad days where he can't walk but he still has good days where he walks all over the house. He will leave his plate on the table and walk away because he's gotten used to being waited on hand and foot. And wants everything brought to him no shouldn't resent my father but hes not easy to deal with. I repeat. My mother is a saint.


Sami I've said it to you before and I feel like you got mad at me but I'm'a say it again because I think it's true.

You sacrifice too much, maybe because you feel it's your role maybe you're playing the martyr. But you need to sometimes put yourself first. You need to show your girls you are as important to the family as they are and as your husband is. They will watch you sacrifice and they will feel your tension (no matter how much you think they're sheltered for it) and they will grow up to be wives and feel like they must deny themselves medication or self indulgence because they grew up watching you deny yourselves these things.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is stop sacrificing, go buy your medicine every month. And go do something for yourself. I know money's tight but call your friends and get away for a weekend. Go drive to an area where there are sidewalks and take that walk you miss. Just get out and get some time to yourself. The girls will survive and you will feel better.and stop doing stuff you don't want to do because you feel it's the duty of a good wife.

And set some new rules. I like the idea of a chore list and getting everyone involved. It's time everyone pitched in so you're not doing everything on your own.

Hope you hear the love this has been said with

Good luck to you

I have a friend, she just got divorced from her husband last year.
He was having an affair.
Know how she found out?
The husband actually put a whole bunch of pics of him and the mistress on HER COMPUTER, so that when she opened it up one day, she saw all the photos. (him holding hands with the mistress, kissing her, etc..)


What a jerk.

I have a friend, she just got divorced from her husband last year.
He was having an affair.
Know how she found out?
The husband actually put a whole bunch of pics of him and the mistress on HER COMPUTER, so that when she opened it up one day, she saw all the photos. (him holding hands with the mistress, kissing her, etc..)


What a jerk.


He's lucky to be alive cuz I know some women who'd've killed him

He's lucky to be alive cuz I know some women who'd've killed him

She wanted to but they have 2 kids (ages 9 and 12).
She's an absolute treasure of a girl and now she's dating one of my best friends and they are hitting it off well. I expect they'll get married next year.

She wanted to but they have 2 kids (ages 9 and 12).
She's an absolute treasure of a girl and now she's dating one of my best friends and they are hitting it off well. I expect they'll get married next year.


Good for her!!!

I work in male dominated construction and I have come to think there are 3 kinds of husbands. Those that understand that it is a partnership(they are just wonderful), those that are confused but trying(good guys and trying), and those who think that just because they are married it doesn't mean they have to change their lives to fit a wife and family("does my wife have the right to know how much money I make?") 

God bless the first two, I don't who the heck marries(or stays married to) the third.  ::)



My first husband was #3-which is why the marriage only lasted 6 years. The reason why it lasted THAT long was because I was a glutton for punishment and didn't want to admit to myself that I made a mistake. Carlos is definitely #1. Wouldn't trade him for anyone or anything.



Cat

My first husband was #3-which is why the marriage only lasted 6 years. The reason why it lasted THAT long was because I was a glutton for punishment and didn't want to admit to myself that I made a mistake. Carlos is definitely #1. Wouldn't trade him for anyone or anything.



Cat


Another problem is, most husbands think they are a '#1 category' , for the sole reason that they bring home a paychek.  :-\\

Another problem is, most husbands think they are a '#1 category' , for the sole reason that they bring home a paychek.  :-\\


They would be wrong.  :P

My first husband was #3-which is why the marriage only lasted 6 years. The reason why it lasted THAT long was because I was a glutton for punishment and didn't want to admit to myself that I made a mistake. Carlos is definitely #1. Wouldn't trade him for anyone or anything.



Cat


Yeah, sounds familiar.  My first husband was a doozy, as well.  He had to know everything about me, detailed sexual history (which is fine, there wasn't much to speak of) but he didn't feel like he had to share whatever information about himself.  He actually told my parents that I was had had more partners then he did before we got married, why did he feel the need to share that with them?  I guess to shame me, as another form of control.  I had to be home from work within 15 minutes or that meant I was off screwing with every guy in town at the local No-tell motel.  I took down my milage, I had to turn over my paycheck, he'd check my browser history on my computer, check the last call made on my phone.  Meanwhile, I was not allowed the same information recipricated.  It got so bad that I felt like I had to either have my mom escort me to go see my friend Jami, or my first husband had to be with me and control the conversation between my friend and I. (BTW she was the only friend that I was 'allowed' to have, even though I had male friends (they were gay, not that that made any difference) before I got married, I had to ask those friends not to contact me anymore after I got married.  He tried even to have me give up my friendship with Jami, but that was where I finally stood up for myself.  He tried to tell me that she invited him over to her apartment to work on her computer, then came out of her bathroom wrapped only in a towel and accidently dropped it to entice him.  If that were true, (which I knew wasn't, because we always did have different tastes in men) why didn't he immediately leave and call me?  ::) 
He would always make me feel uneasy and off-kilter that I was 4 years older then him (like that even matters.) 
I got used to being treated that way, and when he left (after 10 months of marriage), I actually felt relieved, but still fought to get him back.  But by that time, he'd moved on to the girl that would be ex-wife number two. Even after he left, he and his wife would get into my e-mail and read it and make fun of me, and even post on my divorce support message board as me, talking sheesh. His now second ex-wife and I formed a club later on.  ;D
My current (and last, thank you) husband is completely opposite.  I can't even begin to say how different and awesome he is.
Sure, we have little arguments but we also talk about them until we understand each others point of view.  We actually work hard to keep this marriage strong.  I can be friends with whomever I want, go wherever I want and he gives me money to do it on. 

My father is sick and has really bad days where he can't walk but he still has good days where he walks all over the house. He will leave his plate on the table and walk away because he's gotten used to being waited on hand and foot. And wants everything brought to him no shouldn't resent my father but hes not easy to deal with. I repeat. My mother is a saint.


Sami I've said it to you before and I feel like you got mad at me but I'm'a say it again because I think it's true.

You sacrifice too much, maybe because you feel it's your role maybe you're playing the martyr. But you need to sometimes put yourself first. You need to show your girls you are as important to the family as they are and as your husband is. They will watch you sacrifice and they will feel your tension (no matter how much you think they're sheltered for it) and they will grow up to be wives and feel like they must deny themselves medication or self indulgence because they grew up watching you deny yourselves these things.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is stop sacrificing, go buy your medicine every month. And go do something for yourself. I know money's tight but call your friends and get away for a weekend. Go drive to an area where there are sidewalks and take that walk you miss. Just get out and get some time to yourself. The girls will survive and you will feel better.and stop doing stuff you don't want to do because you feel it's the duty of a good wife.

And set some new rules. I like the idea of a chore list and getting everyone involved. It's time everyone pitched in so you're not doing everything on your own.

Hope you hear the love this has been said with

Good luck to you


She's absolutely right.

Yeah, sounds familiar.  My first husband was a doozy, as well.  He had to know everything about me, detailed sexual history (which is fine, there wasn't much to speak of) but he didn't feel like he had to share whatever information about himself.  He actually told my parents that I was had had more partners then he did before we got married, why did he feel the need to share that with them?  I guess to shame me, as another form of control.  I had to be home from work within 15 minutes or that meant I was off screwing with every guy in town at the local No-tell motel.  I took down my milage, I had to turn over my paycheck, he'd check my browser history on my computer, check the last call made on my phone.  Meanwhile, I was not allowed the same information recipricated.  It got so bad that I felt like I had to either have my mom escort me to go see my friend Jami, or my first husband had to be with me and control the conversation between my friend and I. (BTW she was the only friend that I was 'allowed' to have, even though I had male friends (they were gay, not that that made any difference) before I got married, I had to ask those friends not to contact me anymore after I got married.  He tried even to have me give up my friendship with Jami, but that was where I finally stood up for myself.  He tried to tell me that she invited him over to her apartment to work on her computer, then came out of her bathroom wrapped only in a towel and accidently dropped it to entice him.  If that were true, (which I knew wasn't, because we always did have different tastes in men) why didn't he immediately leave and call me?  ::) 
He would always make me feel uneasy and off-kilter that I was 4 years older then him (like that even matters.) 
I got used to being treated that way, and when he left (after 10 months of marriage), I actually felt relieved, but still fought to get him back.  But by that time, he'd moved on to the girl that would be ex-wife number two. Even after he left, he and his wife would get into my e-mail and read it and make fun of me, and even post on my divorce support message board as me, talking sheesh. His now second ex-wife and I formed a club later on.  ;D
My current (and last, thank you) husband is completely opposite.  I can't even begin to say how different and awesome he is.
Sure, we have little arguments but we also talk about them until we understand each others point of view.  We actually work hard to keep this marriage strong.  I can be friends with whomever I want, go wherever I want and he gives me money to do it on.



Were we married to the same person? Actually, I know my first husband didn't cheat on me-he was just a verbally abusive alcoholic. I used to believe it when he told me that I was worthless. I finally smarted up and left him. It was a hard thing to do but I am proud of myself for doing it. I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the time he told me that if I left him, he would quit drinking just to spite me because I wasn't worth it. We were at a restaurant and I saw myself get up and walk out. I was about a half mile from work where my car was so I walked back to work to get my car. I then went to the bank to open my own account and made sure that my paycheck was going into MY account and not ours.

It always bother me that I was making the same amount of $$$ as he was-and there was a time when I made more-but he controlled the checkbook and would give me some spending cash. I would always have to ask for money. He would then say, "What do you need it for? I gave you $20 two weeks ago." How nice. The kicker was the time he blamed me because HE lost his keys at work-and it was my fault because I was across town at the time and he couldn't get a hold of me to get the spare set.

Sorry to be going on about this person who made my life a living hell. That was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. I wish that I could just forget about that chapter in my life but sometimes it comes back to haunt me. Charlie has been so wonderful. He took damaged goods and given me so much self-confidence. I still have the scars-I know I always will but I have healed so much because of my wonderful best friend & partner-in every sense of the word.


Cat

Were we married to the same person? Actually, I know my first husband didn't cheat on me-he was just a verbally abusive alcoholic. I used to believe it when he told me that I was worthless. I finally smarted up and left him. It was a hard thing to do but I am proud of myself for doing it. I think the straw that broke the camel's back was the time he told me that if I left him, he would quit drinking just to spite me because I wasn't worth it. We were at a restaurant and I saw myself get up and walk out. I was about a half mile from work where my car was so I walked back to work to get my car. I then went to the bank to open my own account and made sure that my paycheck was going into MY account and not ours.

It always bother me that I was making the same amount of $$$ as he was-and there was a time when I made more-but he controlled the checkbook and would give me some spending cash. I would always have to ask for money. He would then say, "What do you need it for? I gave you $20 two weeks ago." How nice. The kicker was the time he blamed me because HE lost his keys at work-and it was my fault because I was across town at the time and he couldn't get a hold of me to get the spare set.

Sorry to be going on about this person who made my life a living hell. That was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. I wish that I could just forget about that chapter in my life but sometimes it comes back to haunt me. Charlie has been so wonderful. He took damaged goods and given me so much self-confidence. I still have the scars-I know I always will but I have healed so much because of my wonderful best friend & partner-in every sense of the word.


Cat


My ex husband was VERY controlling with money.  I had to give him the reciept for everything I bought, and it had to be itemized so he would know exactly what I was buying.  I also had to ask permission before I went grocery shopping, or went to the atm.  I finally started to rebel at the end of our marriage and just started buying whatever I wanted.  I was so sick and tired of "reporting" to him, when I worked just as hard (if not harder because I had all of the household duties too) than he did. 

He also put me down a lot too.  He found fault with nearly everything I did.  Never once, in the 7 years we were together, did he tell me I was pretty, or looked nice, or was good at something.  Never.   

Which is why, thank God, he is now my ex!

Cat's 1st husband sounds like my dad.

And I read these stories, and I am thankful.  My husband is not any of those described.  He is not controlling of my friends, I just don't have many due to our remote location.  His check goes into our account (which I don't really touch), and my check goes into my account.  Unfortunately I have to transfer money to pay bills...  And all shopping expenses comes out of my account, as well as entertainment.  He, I guess, truly believes I can do anything.  He doesn't ask for itemized anything.  He is not an alcoholic, I would be way before him and the last time I drank was well over 3 months ago.  He does not put me down, he does get defensive about his home and family (I just call them like I see them).  I have always been able to go where I want, with whom I want.  No questions. 

You are right q.  I just kept thinking if I kept not spending money on me, the family could go on a vacation I wanted desperately wanted needed.  Well to hell with it.  I will stop buying schwan man do I can pay $50 for a y membership. Or a pedi/mani... Something! 

And I read these stories, and I am thankful.  My husband is not any of those described.  He is not controlling of my friends, I just don't have many due to our remote location.  His check goes into our account (which I don't really touch), and my check goes into my account.  Unfortunately I have to transfer money to pay bills...  And all shopping expenses comes out of my account, as well as entertainment.  He, I guess, truly believes I can do anything.  He doesn't ask for itemized anything.  He is not an alcoholic, I would be way before him and the last time I drank was well over 3 months ago.  He does not put me down, he does get defensive about his home and family (I just call them like I see them).  I have always been able to go where I want, with whom I want.  No questions. 

You are right q.  I just kept thinking if I kept not spending money on me, the family could go on a vacation I wanted desperately wanted needed.  Well to hell with it.  I will stop buying schwan man do I can pay $50 for a y membership. Or a pedi/mani... Something!



Sometimes you just got to do something for yourself. When my marriage ended, I was totally broke. I was paying for a house by myself which was bought when there were two incomes. I basically didn't have a pot to p!ss in at the time. But, I wanted to buy myself a present. And what I chose was a bottle of nail polish as stupid as that may sound. It was something that I absolutely didn't need but I felt that I deserved it-and that was basically what I could afford at the time.



Cat

Sometimes you just got to do something for yourself. When my marriage ended, I was totally broke. I was paying for a house by myself which was bought when there were two incomes. I basically didn't have a pot to p!ss in at the time. But, I wanted to buy myself a present. And what I chose was a bottle of nail polish as stupid as that may sound. It was something that I absolutely didn't need but I felt that I deserved it-and that was basically what I could afford at the time.



Cat
You are right!  I just saved $80 on girls jeans, and I went ahead and blew the money I saved on a pair of jeans I have wanted for over a year!!!! I earn my paycheck, I should get a portion; beside the food!

You are right!  I just saved $80 on girls jeans, and I went ahead and blew the money I saved on a pair of jeans I have wanted for over a year!!!! I earn my paycheck, I should get a portion; beside the food!



Exactly! You deserve it!



Cat

You are right!  I just saved $80 on girls jeans, and I went ahead and blew the money I saved on a pair of jeans I have wanted for over a year!!!! I earn my paycheck, I should get a portion; beside the food!


GOOD FOR YOU!!! O0

My ex husband was VERY controlling with money.  I had to give him the reciept for everything I bought, and it had to be itemized so he would know exactly what I was buying.  I also had to ask permission before I went grocery shopping, or went to the atm.  I finally started to rebel at the end of our marriage and just started buying whatever I wanted.  I was so sick and tired of "reporting" to him, when I worked just as hard (if not harder because I had all of the household duties too) than he did. 

He also put me down a lot too.  He found fault with nearly everything I did.  Never once, in the 7 years we were together, did he tell me I was pretty, or looked nice, or was good at something.  Never.   

Which is why, thank God, he is now my ex!


I'm so glad you got out of it!

GOOD FOR YOU!!! O0


Exactly! You deserve it!



Cat
ridiculous thOugh they are!  I really like them!!!

I'm not married, but in a long time relationship(20 years).  We have been sharing a credit card for about 5 years to get the miles for our vacations.  He pays his part, I pay mine.  The first time the bill came he looked at something I bought and wanted to know what I was spending that kind of money for.  I sat down, looked him in the eye, arms crossed, and didn't say a word. He hasn't asked since.  ;)

If we were married it may be different, which is why we aren't married.

People aren't realistic about marriage.

You are right!  I just saved $80 on girls jeans, and I went ahead and blew the money I saved on a pair of jeans I have wanted for over a year!!!! I earn my paycheck, I should get a portion; beside the food!


You go girl!  Keep it up!

And you are always welcome in Salt Lake for a girls weekend...

People aren't realistic about marriage.


Too many love songs

You go girl!  Keep it up!

And you are always welcome in Salt Lake for a girls weekend...
Thanks!  A girls weekend Sounds wonderful!!! Haven't had one of those in 5 years :(. 

I still feel guilty for buying them, but I packed them as my only pair of jeans on my school trip, so I will have to wear them - no returning them!!!!

Thanks!  A girls weekend Sounds wonderful!!! Haven't had one of those in 5 years :(. 

I still feel guilty for buying them, but I packed them as my only pair of jeans on my school trip, so I will have to wear them - no returning them!!!!


Let go of the guilt. It's the first step of healing your broken soul.

Thanks!  A girls weekend Sounds wonderful!!! Haven't had one of those in 5 years :(. 

I still feel guilty for buying them, but I packed them as my only pair of jeans on my school trip, so I will have to wear them - no returning them!!!!


Stop feeling guilty.  You DESERVE to do something nice for yourself!!!

Let go of the guilt. It's the first step of healing your broken soul.

Stop feeling guilty.  You DESERVE to do something nice for yourself!!!



What they said!


I am all for you coming to Salt Lake for a girls weekend, too.  If you can it would be a blast.

What they said!


I am all for you coming to Salt Lake for a girls weekend, too.  If you can it would be a blast.


Um.  Hi.

http://cur.cursors-4u.net/smilies/images1/smi12-2.gif

Stop feeling guilty.  You DESERVE to do something nice for yourself!!!

YES!

And let this not be the only time as well.

Um.  Hi.

http://cur.cursors-4u.net/smilies/images1/smi12-2.gif


Well you know damn well you are invited too!

Too many love songs


It's more of the commitment.

Um.  Hi.

http://cur.cursors-4u.net/smilies/images1/smi12-2.gif

Well you know damn well you are invited too!


Like we would leave you out.  :D

Too many love songs


To many Rom Coms

Obviously, marriage IS realistic as there are still many marriages out there. But it does take two committed, unselfish (most of the time) people to make it a successful marraige.

Obviously, marriage IS realistic as there are still many marriages out there. But it does take two committed, unselfish (most of the time) people to make it a successful marraige.


I'll agree on that.  :)

Obviously, marriage IS realistic as there are still many marriages out there. But it does take two committed, unselfish (most of the time) people to make it a successful marraige.


that's why my parents have been together 43 years.  :)

Obviously, marriage IS realistic as there are still many marriages out there. But it does take two committed, unselfish (most of the time) people to make it a successful marraige.
Guess I just feel like I need to be selfish right now...  I lOve my husband.  But I am tired of his "hobbies" and not getting anything.  Even when I try and save, and not spend anything... I still can't get any sort of vacation or break.  I am hating show cattle, the time, the work and the expense of them.  If we were this bad (and trust me I know we could be much worse) we wOuldn't have a boat...  A hObby is just that!

I am feeling so left out-all this talk about a girls' weekend in Salt Lake City and I can't get there until next year.  :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat

I am feeling so left out-all this talk about a girls' weekend in Salt Lake City and I can't get there until next year.  :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat


You feel left out? People like Henk & gibbo and I need a delicate sex change operation to join this group  :D

Ok.  Everyone is invited, regardless of gender, race, religion, or sexual preference.  However, all Decadeologists are banned.  Forever.

Ok.  Everyone is invited, regardless of gender, race, religion, or sexual preference.  However, all Decadeologists are banned.  Forever.



Yay!!!! Hey, we can do another get-together like we did in Philly back in '09.



Cat

Yay!!!! Hey, we can do another get-together like we did in Philly back in '09.



Cat


I would adore that.  We could pick a state smack dab in the middle and all meet there.

Obviously, marriage IS realistic as there are still many marriages out there. But it does take two committed, unselfish (most of the time) people to make it a successful marraige.


I'll agree on that.  :)

So will I.



that's why my parents have been together 43 years.  :)

And mine just celebrated their 36th anniversary yesterday. :)

So will I.

And mine just celebrated their 36th anniversary yesterday. :)


My parents were married 42 years before my mom passed away.

I also have an great aunt and uncle who were married for 68 years before my uncle passed away.

My parents were married 42 years before my mom passed away.

I also have an great aunt and uncle who were married for 68 years before my uncle passed away.

On that note, I have a great-aunt who was married to my great-uncle for 60 years before he passed away.

So will I.

And mine just celebrated their 36th anniversary yesterday. :)


Congratulations to your parents!

My parents were married 42 years before my mom passed away.


Mine were as well, 42 years, before dad passed away.  My in-laws were married about 60 years before wife's mom passed away. Wife and I have a couple years to go until the big 25 (Silver anniversary)

Congratulations to your parents!Mine were as well, 42 years, before dad passed away.  My in-laws were married about 60 years before wife's mom passed away.
Oh, and my paternal grandparents didn't quite make it to their 61st anniversary (which would've been last month); that's because my grandmother died in August. :\'(



Wife and I have a couple years to go until the big 25 (Silver anniversary)

Good for you!! Best wishes for a healthy anniversary milestone!

My parents were married 42 years before my mom passed away.

I also have an great aunt and uncle who were married for 68 years before my uncle passed away.


Sorry about both passings.  :(

Well you know damn well you are invited too!


I know.. But sometimes ya just need to hear it  :)

Like we would leave you out.  :D


O0

I would adore that.  We could pick a state smack dab in the middle and all meet there.


Next summer.  We are hoping to get across to the US at some point

Next summer.  We are hoping to get across to the US at some point


I may be as excited (if not more than) you guys are.

We really need to plan something.  Philadelphia was SO FUN and I want to do it again!

Y'all are looking for an excuse for a long-distance road trip, aren'tcha?


Too many love songs


Turn the radio on.
No more love songs.

https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/10/2/qYSL2kRdZESbJG_IuRn9wA2.png

Disclaimer: I don't endorse reckless driving, but that BMW was doing a pretty good job of blocking those minis, who might have wanted to go faster! (I was pleasantly surprised to find that the footage was just a video from a casual road rally.) But I do like the song. And I do endorse the cartoon I linked to.

Guess I just feel like I need to be selfish right now...  I lOve my husband.  But I am tired of his "hobbies" and not getting anything.  Even when I try and save, and not spend anything... I still can't get any sort of vacation or break.  I am hating show cattle, the time, the work and the expense of them.  If we were this bad (and trust me I know we could be much worse) we wOuldn't have a boat...  A hObby is just that!


Sorry sami ... I was not speaking of your being selfish. It sounds like hubby has it all his way! He has to give something as well and he should care that you don't appear happy.

We really need to plan something.  Philadelphia was SO FUN and I want to do it again!



We should start a new thread about it. This one is getting highjacked. lol



Cat

I would adore that.  We could pick a state smack dab in the middle and all meet there.


Just remember my only mode of transportation to such an event is the four wheels that sit under my fat ass so not to far okay?  :P




We should start a new thread about it. This one is getting highjacked. lol



Cat


Oops.

My parents have been married 45 yrs (sept) ... Guess which birthday I celebrate in Dec....  ::)

They probably, honestly, should've divorced 20-30 yrs ago

Well I have been away from home for 3 days (no not a break, or a vacation; a student trip).  I have a 6 + hour bus ride on my way home now. 

While I was away, my hubby tiled the whole backsplash of our kitchen.  One of those, things to do/decide that is soo permenant I just got overwhelmed with the decision.  So since I did not do it, it has sat undone.  Now it is tiled, and it looks beautiful.  I just have a minor decision on grout.

Second, my girls are staying with another teacher from my school.  Since my husband has to work at 4 am.  They always have to spend the night with someone.  Well Mrs. Danner has always wanted to be the grandma that all the grand kids/kids want to go to.  She volunteered to take my girls, she already has her grandson (as her daughter is at same cOnvention I am at).  My husbands mother has never "volunteered", she has done it because he asked, but she has never volunteered to take the girls (as is the same with any of his family).  As she say "she is not a babysitter".  I guess she is rather perturbed that the girls are staying (and very happy and excited to stay) with Mrs. Danner.  Gee I am sorry, if you never put effort into having a good time with the girls, they will never put the effort in you.  But I guess that is a whole different thread. 

P.S.
Girls weekend / meet up sounds terrific...  I can only hope I can make it work! But I would try my damnedest now!

We should start a new thread about it. This one is getting highjacked. lol



Cat


Sorry was I going offtrack?  ??? :(

Sorry was I going offtrack?  ??? :(


Nope... A few of us others were.

Nope... A few of us others were.
  :)