I was called to the police department the other day without being given a reason why. As soon as I showed up I was treated like a criminal. Apparently one of my neighbor's got his beer stolen and he told the cops it was me (this neighbor doesn't like me for some reason). So the investigator (major league jerk) starts informing ME what I did that night, and it convoluted into the most laughably implausible story I had heard in my life. "Your dad's asleep, YOU sneak out, and you have your friend's phone..." Evidently I had somehow gotten a hold of my friend Erik's phone (despite that he's three hours out of town) and used it to text other people about stealing his beer, signed my own name, then personally stole his beer. Of course I didn't nod and smile the whole time, I told him this was all false and I got called a cocky smartass. He talked down to me, then asked me random things like whether I had a girlfriend, then took my prints and said he'd compare them later that day. But I haven't gotten any word back. I really doubt they compared those prints, because I don't think anyone believes that story. I don't know what action I should take at this point because I don't know whether the investigator's behavior was technically legal or not. Advice?

I can only go by what I've seen on criminal investigation stories like The First 48 which covers real homicide investigations.  It seems like they can resort to tactics like that to get you to tell the truth.  If your neighbor has filed a criminal complaint then they will possibly compare fingerprints if they feel the case is worth the time.  :P

They'd have to have a solid case (text records and such) to even prosecute.  If the texting part is true, maybe Erik stole it or set you up.

The truth will set you free.  The investigator was probably power trippin'.

yes they can lie its an investigative technique. typically the best advise anyone can give you is to ask for a lawyer, immediately, whether you are guilty or innocent is irrelevant. There are too many variables about the legal system you don't know. You don't want to get tripped up on a technicality. Here's the thing... innocent people think that asking for a lawyer implies guilt... not true. Its a safety measure.

Lets face it. If you found yourself on a sinking boat would you deny someone's offer of a life preserver because you know how to swim?

Its sounds like a weak case tho. They'll have to decide if they are going to file charges. The neighbor would have to be willing to sign a complaint. That whole bit about your friend's cell phone sounds weird tho. They would have to know about him and his phone to even know to bring it up.... chances are Erik was originally looked at and he's selling you out as a scape goat... even tho cops can lie they wouldn't pull you using your friends cell phone out of their arse....

You can always contact them to find out how to request a copy of the police report. That report will have all of the information of their investigation in it.  That means it would have details about the cell phone, witness statements and everything so you'd know what the cops know and what they think.

BTW that bit about the girlfriend... they are just looking for more people they can interview... that's some town you live in if they put this much investigative work into the theft of a case of of beer.  ::)

I see you're no longer a minor...but I was under the impression that you had the right to remain silent and all that, and you could just tell them that you weren't saying anything without a lawyer present ???

Otherwise it's like entrapment or something.  My law-ese sucks.

I see you're no longer a minor...but I was under the impression that you had the right to remain silent and all that, and you could just tell them that you weren't saying anything without a lawyer present ???

Otherwise it's like entrapment or something.  My law-ese sucks.


lol...he does have that right if he was under arrest. they don't have to read him his rights just to question him... its sort of a weird catch 22.  Its a good idea (in my opinion) to just read everyone their rights when questioning them but you know... that makes too much sense...


It wouldn't be entrapment tho... Entrapment would be if they put a case of beer on the porch, planted a cop outside the house in plain clothes and had him 1) point out the beer to LCoOW  and 2) encourage him to steal it.  ;)

Your neighbor sounds like kind of a douchebag.  Where does he keep his beer?

Not to be the devil's advocate or anything, but if I had some beer stolen from my house, I would just chalk it up to normal teenage behavior and make sure I didn't leave it out in the future. 

Yes, it is legal for the cops to lie to you under some circumstances, and even if it's not legal, they'll do it anyway because it's your word against theirs.  I agree with Snoz.  Keep your mouth shut as much as possible.  Expect the cops to try and scare you into talking.  The "good cop, bad cop" cliche holds true.  Sometimes one officer will play both sides.  They're trained to be intimidating about what will happen if you don't "cooperate," and at the same time reassure you that they can "help" you if you do "cooperate."  Assume they're lying and they just want to bust your ass.  

The incident with your neighbor accusing you of stealing his beer was outrageous.  In those circumstances, I would expect officers to go speak to you and your neighbor rather than calling you down to the station.  That part alone was ridiculous.  If the cops didn't give you a reason, that should have been a red flag.  I would not go to the police station if they didn't even tell me why they wanted me there.  That was totally unprofessional on their part.  I don't fault you for going.  Most people, including me, don't know enough about their own civil rights.  I have certainly been hoodwinked by the cops myself.  

Cops dick around with young people because they expect youthful subjects are less likely to know their rights.  When I got busted with pot when I was 18, I made every mistake in the book.  I'm not going to recount the incident, 'coz I still find it embarrassing over 20 years later!
:-[

Foo Bar posted these videos on another thread, and I'm going to post them here.  They're worth everybody's while to watch.

Don't talk to cops, part 1, with Prof. James Duane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Don't talk to cops, part 2, with Officer George Bruch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=related

This one is rather long and features some terrible acting, but it is also worth watching carefully --

BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA&feature=fvw

"Your dad's asleep, YOU sneak out, and you have your friend's phone..." Evidently I had somehow gotten a hold of my friend Erik's phone (despite that he's three hours out of town) and used it to text other people about stealing his beer, signed my own name, then personally stole his beer.

Most cellphone companies keep records of when text messages were sent, who they were sent to, and where they were sent from.  They don't however generally release this information for security reasons, nor do they keep records of content (what was said) of messages.  Stuff like that requires court orders.

Most cellphone companies keep records of when text messages were sent, who they were sent to, and where they were sent from.  They don't however generally release this information for security reasons, nor do they keep records of content (what was said) of messages.  Stuff like that requires court orders.


if the officers had a case and filed charges with the DA then the records would be subpoenaed but it wouldn't tell who physically sent the text so if Erik's phone was stolen anyone could have sent the text....or Erik could have done it himself and claimed it was someone else.

Either way burden would be on the prosecution to prove this...and it would be very hard to prove anything other than the fact that texts were or were not sent about beer being stolen.

Some years ago I Managed a Movie Theatre,had off duty cops {in uniform} as Security on Fri. & Sat. nights.
My Asst. Mgr. & I made the Sat. night deposit.Mon.am ...Bank said only 1 Deposit was in bag {Box Office & Refreshment deposits were separated} Bank said they'd conduct investigation ..2hrs. later Bank said they were blameless {2 hrs.!!}
Called Police...They asked Asst. & I  to come to Station to fill out complaint...Once there..We were separated & interrogated !! They told Me He said I took it...They told Him I said He did.....I asked to make Phone call to call My Lawyer {an old Friend I'd known since I was 15}. They REFUSED Me.So...I said NOTHING.
When I left Station, 4 hours later..called My District Mgr. who called Police & told them even if they proved Our guilt the Company would NOT press charges so go look at the bank {I'll never forget that act of Loyalty}.
Next day Cops called to ask Me to take a polygraph.....Do it ...You got nothing to hide...another Friend had His Lawyer call Me who said Tell them to arrest You or f@#k off !..... ;D }
I refused.... ;)
Long story short....I noticed the Teller who gave Me the Deposit bag that Mon.am....was no longer there...All the bank would say was "She no longer works here".......Gee...Ya think ?!
A couple Days later a couple Cops came to the Movies,thought they'd get in free...{as was Our policy since they did Our Security......} They thought wrong !! ..The frequent Moviegoing Cops tried to soften Me up...saying We were treated wrong..Some cops are over zealous...You need to see it from Our point of view...etc.....
I told them have the 2 Detectives who interrogated Us come to the Theatre and apologize to Us..in front of My staff...and I'd consider letting the Officers in again....
I never got that...They never got in.....Started using the Company that provided Mall Security instead of {supplementing the income of} off duty Cops.






Yes, it is legal for the cops to lie to you under some circumstances, and even if it's not legal, they'll do it anyway because it's your word against theirs.  I agree with Snoz.  Keep your mouth shut as much as possible.  Expect the cops to try and scare you into talking.  The "good cop, bad cop" cliche holds true.  Sometimes one officer will play both sides.  They're trained to be intimidating about what will happen if you don't "cooperate," and at the same time reassure you that they can "help" you if you do "cooperate."  Assume they're lying and they just want to bust your ass.  

Some years ago I Managed a Movie Theatre,had off duty cops {in uniform} as Security on Fri. & Sat. nights.
My Asst. Mgr. & I made the Sat. night deposit.Mon.am ...Bank said only 1 Deposit was in bag {Box Office & Refreshment deposits were separated} Bank said they'd conduct investigation ..2hrs. later Bank said they were blameless {2 hrs.!!}
Called Police...They asked Asst. & I  to come to Station to fill out complaint...Once there..We were separated & interrogated !! They told Me He said I took it...They told Him I said He did.....I asked to make Phone call to call My Lawyer {an old Friend I'd known since I was 15}. They REFUSED Me.So...I said NOTHING.
When I left Station, 4 hours later..called My District Mgr. who called Police & told them even if they proved Our guilt the Company would NOT press charges so go look at the bank {I'll never forget that act of Loyalty}.
Next day Cops called to ask Me to take a polygraph.....Do it ...You got nothing to hide...another Friend had His Lawyer call Me who said Tell them to arrest You or f@#k off !..... ;D }
I refused.... ;)
Long story short....I noticed the Teller who gave Me the Deposit bag that Mon.am....was no longer there...All the bank would say was "She no longer works here".......Gee...Ya think ?!
A couple Days later a couple Cops came to the Movies,thought they'd get in free...{as was Our policy since they did Our Security......} They thought wrong !! ..The frequent Moviegoing Cops tried to soften Me up...saying We were treated wrong..Some cops are over zealous...You need to see it from Our point of view...etc.....
I told them have the 2 Detectives who interrogated Us come to the Theatre and apologize to Us..in front of My staff...and I'd consider letting the Officers in again....
I never got that...They never got in.....Started using the Company that provided Mall Security instead of {supplementing the income of} off duty Cops.







what year was it? 70s right? yeah they were still figuring out that whole miranda thing... forgetting about it, ignoring it and what not. But now if you aren't given a lawyer when you ask for one their case against you is pretty much in the crapper. If you ask and they don't give you one or keep asking questions you just keep asking for a lawyer. The interrogation is being recorded so you should say I'm not answering that until I talked to a lawyer  or  I asked you for a lawyer 20 minutes ago I will wait till he arrives. IF they try to make you feel guilty about... then say - you know that's a good point....lets bring it up with my attorney... really the whole system is designed to get a confession and they will try to break you down figuring innocent people will never confess but the truth is some people end up confessing just to make the interogation stop,

I work with cops. A lot of them. Some are zealous, a couple are over zealous, a few are lazy but most of them are really good cops. It's sort of like life- every one is different. I know tho- that even if I were called in for questioning by someone I know - either from my agency or another dept. Even if I knew them I wouldn't talk to them until I had an attorney in the room.  Its not worth it.

No...Not the 70's........
Dec. 1989.


After being denied a Lawyer...I said absolutely NOTHING.........
what year was it? 70s right? yeah they were still figuring out that whole miranda thing... forgetting about it, ignoring it and what not. But now if you aren't given a lawyer when you ask for one their case against you is pretty much in the crapper. If you ask and they don't give you one or keep asking questions you just keep asking for a lawyer. The interrogation is being recorded so you should say I'm not answering that until I talked to a lawyer  or  I asked you for a lawyer 20 minutes ago I will wait till he arrives. IF they try to make you feel guilty about... then say - you know that's a good point....lets bring it up with my attorney... really the whole system is designed to get a confession and they will try to break you down figuring innocent people will never confess but the truth is some people end up confessing just to make the interogation stop,

I work with cops. A lot of them. Some are zealous, a couple are over zealous, a few are lazy but most of them are really good cops. It's sort of like life- every one is different. I know tho- that even if I were called in for questioning by someone I know - either from my agency or another dept. Even if I knew them I wouldn't talk to them until I had an attorney in the room.  Its not worth it.

No...Not the 70's........
Dec. 1989.


After being denied a Lawyer...I said absolutely NOTHING.........


oh well then that's just crazy...  ;)

Yeah...It was...
But...I also knew better than to take on the whole Police Force in a court case..........
I did the only thing I could do....They were pissed !!............ ;D}
oh well then that's just crazy...  ;)

Yeah...It was...
But...I also knew better than to take on the whole Police Force in a court case..........
I did the only thing I could do....They were pissed !!............ ;D}


hit them where they live... their wallets and their stomach.

;)
I could've been convinced..they were "just doing their job"............couldn't give Me any "special treatment' {which I never asked for..}......But violating My basic rights {that any criminal has...any Thief,Drug Dealer,Molester,Murderer has...}........Screw 'em  ;)

;)
I could've been convinced..they were "just doing their job"............couldn't give Me any "special treatment' {which I never asked for..}......But violating My basic rights {that any criminal has...any Thief,Drug Dealer,Molester,Murderer has...}........Screw 'em  ;)



not all of them... just the ones who make the good ones look bad.

I do realize that......I meant "screw 'em...they get no more extra job or freebies from Me"......just those particular ones  ;)
I figured if I hit them all in that Dept.......they'd be pissed at the "bad" ones.... ;)

not all of them... just the ones who make the good ones look bad.

I was called to the police department the other day without being given a reason why. As soon as I showed up I was treated like a criminal. Apparently one of my neighbor's got his beer stolen and he told the cops it was me (this neighbor doesn't like me for some reason). So the investigator (major league jerk) starts informing ME what I did that night, and it convoluted into the most laughably implausible story I had heard in my life. "Your dad's asleep, YOU sneak out, and you have your friend's phone..." Evidently I had somehow gotten a hold of my friend Erik's phone (despite that he's three hours out of town) and used it to text other people about stealing his beer, signed my own name, then personally stole his beer. Of course I didn't nod and smile the whole time, I told him this was all false and I got called a cocky smartass. He talked down to me, then asked me random things like whether I had a girlfriend, then took my prints and said he'd compare them later that day. But I haven't gotten any word back. I really doubt they compared those prints, because I don't think anyone believes that story. I don't know what action I should take at this point because I don't know whether the investigator's behavior was technically legal or not. Advice?


Like I told you the other day.

If they want to talk to you, make them come and get you.

Ask if you're being arrested, if not, then refuse to go, make them do more work. This is the last thing you will say, never talk to the cops.
Two reasons - First, why would you ever want to help them? Second, your words can and will be used against you, changed, taken out of context and used to incriminate you, often for things you didn't even do.

Whilst there are good cops and bad cops just like every walk of life, there are enough bad cops with enough power that all cops need to be seen as the enemy.

Whilst there are good cops and bad cops just like every walk of life, there are enough bad cops with enough power that all cops need to be seen as the enemy.


I disagree

I disagree


Why's that?

You're dealing with an institutional body that often acts to protect it's own, with a long history of railroading innocent victims and fabricating evidence and testimony. This same body has the authority and the power to take away your freedom, lie in court and ensure you end up incarcerated.

As I say, there are plenty of good cops, I've met some that I like, but I'd still never ever talk to them or help them with anything because there are enough bad eggs in the bunch to ensure that my safety is never guaranteed, even if I'm 100% innocent.

I was once arrested for trespassing, after I was dragged across the street by the cop who then told me I was trespassing. The whole situation went as follows:

A friend of mine was being arrested, I walked over and simply said "Ya know, I can just take him home if you want, there's no need for anybody to go to jail tonight, come on, I'll take him right now." The cop told me in no uncertain terms what I could do with my sentiment. My words were as follows - "There's no reason to be rude, I'm not trying to be an asshole here, I'm just trying to help my pal out, you'd probably find people are more willing to cooperate if you treated them with some respect."

This apparently was a good enough reason to drag me over the street and then arrest me, even though I wasn't trespassing, as far as I was concerned hadn't even been rude, was merely trying to help out. Of course, I then didn't help my case as I launched in to a tirade and ensured I'd be spending the night in jail, but that's besides the point at this time, they'll arrest you for any reason, for merely questioning their authority.

As GG Allin so wisely put it - "Mr. Pig man you are nothing. Nothing... concealed behind your badge."

If you give the average man on the street the power to choose between who goes free and who is incarcerated (or at least faced with the possibility of incarceration) you will almost certainly corrupt their view of what is right and wrong. I doubt I could follow the rule of law if I had that level of power, I'm sure I'd abuse it in some way. I also understand that there are enough real scumbags out there that make a police officers job difficult, but regardless, as far as I am concerned, it's impossible to know which ones are decent and which ones are the gutter filth. Hence, they're all the enemy.

Why's that?

You're dealing with an institutional body that often acts to protect it's own, with a long history of railroading innocent victims and fabricating evidence and testimony. This same body has the authority and the power to take away your freedom, lie in court and ensure you end up incarcerated.

As I say, there are plenty of good cops, I've met some that I like, but I'd still never ever talk to them or help them with anything because there are enough bad eggs in the bunch to ensure that my safety is never guaranteed, even if I'm 100% innocent.

I was once arrested for trespassing, after I was dragged across the street by the cop who then told me I was trespassing. The whole situation went as follows:

A friend of mine was being arrested, I walked over and simply said "Ya know, I can just take him home if you want, there's no need for anybody to go to jail tonight, come on, I'll take him right now." The cop told me in no uncertain terms what I could do with my sentiment. My words were as follows - "There's no reason to be rude, I'm not trying to be an asshole here, I'm just trying to help my pal out, you'd probably find people are more willing to cooperate if you treated them with some respect."

This apparently was a good enough reason to drag me over the street and then arrest me, even though I wasn't trespassing, as far as I was concerned hadn't even been rude, was merely trying to help out. Of course, I then didn't help my case as I launched in to a tirade and ensured I'd be spending the night in jail, but that's besides the point at this time, they'll arrest you for any reason, for merely questioning their authority.

As GG Allin so wisely put it - "Mr. Pig man you are nothing. Nothing... concealed behind your badge."

If you give the average man on the street the power to choose between who goes free and who is incarcerated (or at least faced with the possibility of incarceration) you will almost certainly corrupt their view of what is right and wrong. I doubt I could follow the rule of law if I had that level of power, I'm sure I'd abuse it in some way. I also understand that there are enough real scumbags out there that make a police officers job difficult, but regardless, as far as I am concerned, it's impossible to know which ones are decent and which ones are the gutter filth. Hence, they're all the enemy.


because you hear more often about the bad stories not the good ones... there are so many more positive contacts, good clean arrests and good cops but people only ever want to talk about the bad ones.

I work in law enforcement I know more good cops than bad cops.

So...what's done about "bad cops"....
Are they allowed to keep being "bad"..Or are there actual checks & balances ?
Not being antagonistic...Just wondering.....


I work in law enforcement I know more good cops than bad cops.

So...what's done about "bad cops"....
Are they allowed to keep being "bad"..Or are there actual checks & balances ?
Not being antagonistic...Just wondering.....


can't always know what happens... but usually complaints are filed, people are investigated, they can be written up, suspended or fired....depends on the circumstance. and sometimes the claims are unfounded... one of the reason everything is recorded now adays is not just for evidence purposes but also to protect the officers against false claims...cuz that happens too. 

I was called to the police department the other day without being given a reason why.

*snip*

Advice?


As others have suggested, the circumstances don't matter.  The only things people in your circumstances should be saying are along the lines of:

1) "Am I under arrest?"
2) "Am I being detained?"
3) "I would like to be on my way.  Am I free to go?"
4) "I would like to speak to a lawyer."
5) "I do not consent to a search."
6) "With all due respect, Sir (if you can correctly identify his rank, and/or if you know the difference between states where you use the word "Officer" and states where you use the word "Trooper", use the right form of address -- if you're not sure, default to "Sir"), if you had probable cause you wouldn't need my permission.  I got lawyers (or, if applicable, LEOs) in the family who'd kick my ass if I ever told 'em I consented to a search."

For anything more serious than a traffic infraction (in which case, if you're guilty, spare the cop the trouble - fess up and pay up; if you're innocent, sign the ticket, take it to court, and pay your fine and court costs because although you'll lose, at least you'll have made your local highwaymen earn their keep), those are the only four things anyone ever need to say to any law enforcement officer without a lawyer present. 

If you're called to the police station, it's not for a traffic ticket.  It's because you're being investigated for something.  Whether you're innocent or guilty of whatever it is for which you're being investigated, and especially if you're not sure why you'd be under investigation, you hire a lawyer. 

You're a suspect, they're allowed to lie to you about whether or not you're a suspect, and their job isn't so much to get to the truth as it is to establish enough evidence that that the suspect is guilty so as to charge him or her with a crime. 

Most cops are good cops -- but it's not about "good cops" or "bad cops", it's about "hey, our job is to find bad guys.  We think XYZ is a bad guy.  Let's bring him in and see if he confesses.  If we can get anything resembling a confession out of him, we've done a good job in taking him off the streets."  That's a legitimate position for both a good cop - if he genuinely believes XYZ is likely to have committed the crime - to take in the lawful performance of his duty to serve and protect.  That's also a legitimate position for a bad cop - if he's only concerned with meeting a perceived quota - to take in the performance of his bad-coppery.  From the civilian's perspective, however, the positions of the good cop and the bad cop are indistinguishable.  Once you're a suspect, you lawyer up.  It's not like lawyering up is gonna convince the cops you're innocent.  If they thought you were innocent, they wouldn't have asked you to drop by for a chat.

In answer to the earlier question - it's absolutely legal for cops to lie to suspects in the course of an investigation.

I don't know where the urban legend that "cops always have to tell the truth" started, but the funniest moments on COPS are when the suspect in a drug or prostitution sting says "Are you a cop?", as if they believe a cop is legally obliged to say "Yes".  Jailarity ensues!

that was very well written.  I especially like the line "Jailarity ensues"  ;D

I suggest everyone follow FooBar's advice. He said what wanted but stated it much clearer!

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c399/ShelbyRay2/BadCopNoDonut.jpg

  Police can lie to you in order to obtain information - Frazier v. Cupp (1969)...

  But they cannot lie under oath...

  To the good cop/bad cop issue, I agree with Thrashmister.  When you ask for special privilege, elevated respect, and extraordinary responsibility, you are expected to conduct yourself accordingly.  That there are good cops and bad cops isn't the issue.  That the bad cops should expect the same respect as the good cops is the issue...

  The bad cops don't walk around with neon signs on their foreheads that say, "I'm corrupt".  When people can't tell the good cops from the bad cops until it's too late, that's a problem...

  It's just one of those weird quirks of mine, I guess.  If you're a chef, I expect you to know how to cook.  If you're an accountant, I expect you to know how to add and subtract.  If you're a cop, I expect you to actually be a benefit to the community...

so did lovechild of Oscar Wilde get arrested or something? I don't think he ever came back  ???

so did lovechild of Oscar Wilde get arrested or something? I don't think he ever came back  ???


Yup.

He's in Joliet.

Yup.

He's in Joliet.


Now he's lovechild of Leroy and Bubba!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/ky.gif

Now he's lovechild of Leroy and Bubba!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/ky.gif


;D

Mark Kennedy or better undercover Mark Stone, a milestone on Earth First.

The sheriff of Nottingham snuk in Robin Hood gang

the journey of Scotland Yard embarrasement

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/10/mark-kennedy-undercover-cop-activist


Looking back, Long said, Kennedy was "too good to be true – the perfect activist".
"He would be your best mate, but not in a contrived way," he said.
"If he walked in right now, I'd say to him: 'Mark, how you doing?'
and then only seconds later I'd think, oh, I forgot, you're a cop."

Law don't lie, it only keeps truth in the shade