I can see that people like to dance and they like DJ s  and I can see the attractions of sampling etc once the technology exists ....... but why cut out the singing????  why do so many performers with fabulous voices decide that they don't want to sing?????  what is the the big downer on singing and melody .???. isn't is just a more expressive to emote over a belting good melody??? what is the reason .. I have never got it....??? A great vocal with a great melody line  etc is just so much more expressive that just using a rap style of delivery  can someone explain the attraction???.. you can have all the funky rhythm sections you like as well  as great vocals  and the lot ..if dancing is your game......

Rap is... uh.. Well, you see, rap is.... let's see.... I.... you know.... I don't have to.... *knocks over glass of water* RUN!

LOL

It's just that it's the trendy thing now. It just sounds good to a lot of people at this point. I can vaguely remember back in the 80's when it was still new and interesting. What I did was I kind of separated 'rap' from the larger genre of 'music'. See, with most music, the highlight is on the melody, even if it is a vocal melody. Rap is the opposite. In rap, the focus is on the written and spoken word and the 'music' is just a background for it. For that reason, I consider this to be a better description for rap: Poetry to a very basic rhythmic background (Always with a very definite downbeat).

yes .. I can see that .. maybe it is good for expressing cetain things .. maybe  anger or other strong feelings....?

the way i see it is this:

rappers have shownt hat you don't HAVE to sing to be "successful". that "solves" a lot of band's problems and they go into being "metal rap" playing hardcore or heavy metal but rapping instead of singing  like Limp Bizkit.

i think it causes more problems than solving really. cause now instad of YEARS of being famous (like Aerosmith or Springsteen or even Ac/Dc and Queen) you only have a 2-3 year period where you make a LOT of moneya nd then disappear. where's Eminem nowadays? or even Nelly? not as big as they once were. there's an over abundance. too many "rappers" and not enough singers. not enough bands.

that's why i listen to classic rock (Zeppelin, Aerosmith, etc) and only a few newer (Barenaked Ladies, Five For Fighting, Dave M<atthews Band, Jet)

I have posted your question to another message board I hang out at (lots of hip-hop fans and music lovers) who might be able to answer your question further. I will paste responses back here.

Many thanks!

I guess that the fact of not having to sing allows performers to focus on different maybe more interesting and technical skills relating to Djing/sampling etc  rather than developing skills in creating melodies although.... one does not need to read or write music to compose a tune and record  it but it does help!

I like rap and hip hop because of the beat.  And because it makes me move and gives me energy.  It's a matter of taste.  But if you don't like it, you don't like it.  There's nothing wrong with that. 

I like rap and hip hop because I am a stone cold thug.

I like rap and hip hop because I am a stone cold thug.


Didn't you once say you wore shirts that said "Cuter then You"? That's genuine gangsta right there!  ;D

Didn't you once say you wore shirts that said "Cuter then You"? That's genuine gangsta right there!  ;D


Cuter THAN You.  Actually, I've never worn a t-shirt with that phrase on it.  It his, however, my own personal mantra, so I thought said t-shirt would be appropriate for Silver Power's thing.

And there is nothing that says a stong cold thug can't be cute.  I realize, Apricot, that you are, more likely than not, cuter than all of the stone cold thugs on your block...but I am still cuter than you.

Hip hop/rap is about pretending that you have talent when you don't and making a lot of money. Here's the secrets to becoming a successful rapper in 123 format:

1. Come up with the lamest name you can possibly think of. Bonus points if it makes a minimum wage job sound cool (Usher) or if it sounds like you need to talk to your doctor about certain prescription mediciations (Limp Bizkit).
2. Get a large 10 karat gold cross at a pawn shop.
3. Buy a sports jersey and wear a Hefty garbage bag for pants.
4. Take a crash course in street lingo.
5. Get a lot of short people in "Da Club" and talk ("rap") about them and the general experience. Once you've done about 20 songs about that, rap about getting shot and other depressing things.
6. Get some DJ with a vendetta against classic rock to play your "song" 24/7 nonstop until it slowly drives people insane (I'm thinking "Yeah!")
7. Get a couple million dollars and an equal number of fans, then get involved in a scandal and slowly disappear from the face of the earth. 

Hip hop/rap is about pretending that you have talent when you don't and making a lot of money. Here's the secrets to becoming a successful rapper in 123 format:

1. Come up with the lamest name you can possibly think of. Bonus points if it makes a minimum wage job sound cool (Usher)


That would be ridiculously funny if Usher had actually thought up his own name.  Since his mother came up with it, I guess he should have renamed himself something like Charles Raymond in order to be considered a "real" artist.

Usher does do a lot more than just rap... re the question of the beat .. why is a beat without melody more exciting than the same rhythm track  with?......

within Rap/Hip Hop there are many different genres.  If one genre doesnt suit you, then there may be another in the spectrum that is its complete opposite and more youre taste.  

Im not that big on Rap, but personally, I like Alternative Rap ( The Roots, Black Eye Peas, Kayne West) and Old School Rap (RUN DMC, Beastie Boys, Grandmaster Flash) better than say garbage like Nelly, Lil Jon, and the Post-The Chronic incarnation of Dr Dre.  (Though I hear hes trying to do the rap worlds version of SMiLE so this should be interesting)

There are many different kinds of rap....if you hate the likes of Gangsta Rap (Which is not completly bad...check out Public Enemy) and the mostly Synthasized crap of Nelly and Ludacris, I suggest these songs:

White Lines (Dont do them)-Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
The WHole World-OutKast
The Seed (2.0)-THe Roots and Cody CHestnut
King of Rock-Run DMC
Rappers Delight-Sugar Hill Gang
THe message-Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
Johnny Rydell-Beastie Boys
Brass Monkey-Beastie Boys
Clint Eastwood-Gorillaz
Gangster's Paradise-Coolio
Stan-Eminem
Lose yourself-Eminem

yeah, the last three might be "Gangsta" but their good nonetheless


now, whos confused that I came out in support of rap? lol

Usher does do a lot more than just rap... re the question of the beat .. why is a beat without melody more exciting than the same rhythm track  with?......


its not all about the beat....some people just like the beats of rap....thats fine if thats what they like, but that certainly isnt the only reason people like rap....

I forget the song, but there is a song on the Neptunes CD featuring Snoop Dogg (Of all people lol) that has some of the greatest backing music Ive ever heard.....its a shame that Snoop messes it all up, but whatever, its an incredable backing track...wish I remember its name

I still beleive Pherrell might be rocks savior....

Usher does do a lot more than just rap... re the question of the beat .. why is a beat without melody more exciting than the same rhythm track  with?......


I think I'm going to need something to reference.  There are a lot of people who've rapped over the years...

From:

http://www.mhendriks.fsnet.co.uk/michellestars2004.jpg

To:

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/entertainment/0211/gallery.rappers.movies/gallery.snoop.jpg

Can you give me an example of a rap song that you don't like?  Or an artist?  

dont forget: http://www.steveswrestling.com/misc/randysavage.jpg

who can forget "Be a man"!  ::)

dont forget: http://www.steveswrestling.com/misc/randysavage.jpg

who can forget "Be a man"!  ::)


LOL!

Martha, here are responses to your rhetorical question posted at www.soundopinions.net/forum:

Rapping is equal opportunity music.
It gives people who can't sing the opportunity to have a hit record.

I agreee, Hip Hop has a cachet as the credible music. I love it as much as the next guy, but give me a good singer anyday over it. Hip Hop heads used to hat on r&B until I joined Sombies. Hip Hop is great though, Queen Latifah has an incredible voice and she started in hip hop. Dre's ex girl Michelle can sing like a motherfudgeer.


Well many rap songs do include singing in the hook or chorus and sometimes in the verses, but outside of that...
This is a 400-year-old question in America and probably goes back to white preachers scratching their heads and wondering why newly-arrived black slaves would rather play drums and chant than sing some nice harmonized choral arrangements (which is not to suggest the questioner is racist - I'm sure their question was sincere, as you said).
The idea that rapping is a "lesser" vocal form after singing simply descends from these old ideas - white/European/Christian/treble/melody/harmony as superior, more civilized and more advanced than black/African/animist/bass/rhythm/beat.
A lot of people who have spent their entire lives listening to melody-based vocal music have a hard time catching even half of what is going on in rhythm-based vocal music. Ideally if I wanted to explain it someone I would sit down with them and play a really, really good rap song and pause it every few seconds to point out every clever, fascinating thing the rapper does - dropping an alliterative verse, injecting an odd metaphor, splicing a syllable to make a clever rhyme - and I think the listener would start to see the difference.
It's not apparent right away - and not apparent unless you are listening to a talented rapper - but there are entire vistas of sound that simply cannot be replicated in sung vocals. Because a rapper has much more flexibility around the structure of the song he or she also can be a much more effective story teller and lyricist in general (there are scattered examples of non-rap music that have incorportated rap-like elements to capitalize on this).
I've been reading a lot about this and its fascinating how the split has run through so many different courses in the years - ASCAP vs BMI, record labels vs DJs, record sellers vs radio stations, dip Clark vs Alan Freed, rock vs disco, pop charts vs "race"/R&B charts... What we do on this board every day could be seen as another pitched battle in one of America's oldest cultural wars.


To my ears, the sound of the low mumble of Lloyd Banks is 100 times more gorgeous than even the greatest of Alicia Keys' twelve-octave trilling.       

And the tradition of sprech-gesang (German phraseology for "speak singing") goes back hundreds of years.

It's funny, because I was home early from work yesterday and I got sucked into an episode of "The Surreal Life" on VH1 (I know.l..its basically just like watching a train wreck). Anyway, the whole crew of B-List celebrities, including Vanilla Ice, went to a Karaoke bar, where two of the cast bimbo's started karaoky-ing Ice Ice Baby, and eventually peer pressured Vanilla Ice into taking over the mike. Funny thing was, the two bimbos sounded horrible (like most karaoke), and Vanilla Ice sounded great and energized the whole bar.
So what does this Illustrate. Even god-awful crap the likes of which Vanilla Ice produced takes some talent. For all the people that argue rapping is just talking over beats; I would respond, why doesn't everybody do it then? Even if you don't like it, if it's really that easy the perks and pay are a helluva alot better than 99% of the jobs out there.
   

thanks for that very interesting reply .. I do see the point .. I guess it a subjective thing .. I just don't have a great voice and would like to be able to sing really well and am  suprised sometimes that those who obviously can sing really well  choose not to do so!
but I guess there are as you say  interesting things to do with the voice and language other than singing!
I will listen to some of these tracks more carefully in future... although I do hear a lots of rap/hiphop cos my daughter is a huge fan.....I just find the lyrical content so frequently off putting!!

Billy listed some wonderful examples.  I agree with all of them.  Martha, I would strongly suggest that you listen to some OutKast.  If your daughter is into hip hop, she more than likely has some of their CD's.  They are AMAZING.  The things they can do with their voices never fail to blow my mind.  I consider myself a good singer, and there is no way in the world I could ever do the things that they do.  Not only that, they're some of the most original musicians out there right now, in any genre.  I don't think you can compare rapping with singing anyway - they are two totally different things.  But if you try to look at hip hop for what it is, instead of comparing it with more "traditional" music, you'll soon discover that a lot of it really is wonderful.

Thanks Ash .. I will certainly do that!

some definitions

it appears that there are at least three variations of what is referred to as "rap" music.

The first is traditional "rap" which encompasses primarily lyrical rhyming with a secondary emphasis on a musical background.

The second variation is "hip-hop" which focuses primarily on the musical component of songs which are up-beat and have a high tempo and rhythm.

The third variation, which is the subject of the music at issue in the case at bar, is "gangster rap." This form of rap music combines the high tempo music of "hip-hop" with the lyrical rhyming of rap and appears to focus on themes which may be associated with gang cultures and might include the use of profanity, depictions of violence, and/or anti-law enforcement messages

definitions ctd


"Hip-hop" is defined as " youth subculture, originating amongst the Black and Hispanic populations of New York City, which comprises elements such as rap music ..." 2 John Simpson and Edmund Weiner, Oxford English Dictionary 146 (Additions Series 1983). "Rap" is defined as " style of popular music (developed by New York Blacks in the 1970s) ...." Id. at 218.