Quoting:
What does everyone think about Illegals making thier way into the US?  what about the ones that are hear already.  Should they be naturalized? Deported? should they be Allowed to use public facilities that taxpayers pay for(libraries, schools, Roads)?
End Quote

I don't know if it's really wise to put such a topic on here. Not unless you want to cause World War III.

Quoting:


I don't know if it's really wise to put such a topic on here. Not unless you want to cause World War III.
End Quote

Everyone wanted another topic to debate about. I think the moderators will end it before it goes that Far.

Quoting:
I think illegal immigrants should be naturalized. Most of these "illegals" only have that status because it's a b*tch to try and go through all the proper channels to become "legal". They should be entitled to the same rights and privileges that we have and follow the same rules we do.
End Quote

I agree with you the program should be streamlined, but we cant just allow everyone to become naturalized.  Let's not forget any Illegal aliens that are here now have already broken the law.  They should not be entitled to anything until they pay taxes.  I think a good system would be bassed on the population of the nation and demand.  For example: Canada has 30 million people so we should allow 3000 canadian's to become US Citizens this year.  

Quoting:
If your here illegally, do you have any civil rights?

 
End Quote

Good question.  IMO, if you're here illegally, you should lose all civil rights.  Civil rights should only apply to those individuals who are US citizens (that includes naturalized citizens).  If you're not a legal citizen, how can the law apply to you?  

Quoting:
Mexicans will claim racial profiling.  
   
End Quote

Excuse me? Mexicans will claim racial profiling? I noticed how you only mentioned this particular race. Do you have something against Mexicans or was it just a convenient example for your little "illegal immigrant" topic?

Quoting:
It was Just Convinient and it's true. If the government sends a task force out to get rid of Illeagal aliens,  who are they going to check people with the last names Smith Jones and Walker.  No, it would be a waist of time.  Thier going to check People with the last names Santiago, Rodrigues, and Gonzales.  why? because people of Mexican decent constitute the largest population of Aliens in the US.  this will go on until Real Mexican-Americans start Complaining and saying they were harrased. Then the INS wont be allowed to check anybody that Looks Mexican.  Same thing is Happening right now with Arab-americans at Airports.
End Quote

Of course they aren't going to check people with White sounding names, even though I'm sure there are illegal immigrants from other countries with those last names. They'll check people with foreign sounding name (the Arabs are getting the worst of it right now). And Rapture, you brought up the point about illegals freeloading off the government. Yes, there are some who do that, but you also have normal, healthy citizens who do the same d*mned thing! It's not just the illegals doing it. And just to remind everyone who has a problem with illegal immigrants from Mexico: they are the ones out there all the time in the fields and orchards, picking YOUR fruits and vegetables for less than minimum wage, and living in shacks and caves. Now can anyone say (honestly) that he/she would be out there in the rain, in the cold, and on weekends bending and picking? Unless you live on a farm, I don't think so.

Quoting:

. And Rapture, you brought up the point about illegals freeloading off the government. Yes, there are some who do that, but you also have normal, healthy citizens who do the same d*mned thing! It's not just the illegals doing it. And just to remind everyone who has a problem with illegal immigrants from Mexico: they are the ones out there all the time in the fields and orchards, picking YOUR fruits and vegetables for less than minimum wage, and living in shacks and caves. Now can anyone say (honestly) that he/she would be out there in the rain, in the cold, and on weekends bending and picking? Unless you live on a farm, I don't think so.
End Quote

I have the same opinion about American citizens freeloading but since we were talking about illegal immigrants...:)

Greedy plantation owners hire them because they work so cheap and can be treaded as slaves.  The goverment needs to do something about them(plantation owners) also.  No it is not right that they work like that but what do they expect?   No one told them to come here.

Now what about the American's who could be doing those jobs for a decent pay but because their are so many illegal immagrants willing to work below minimum wage and in shitty conditions, they are left out in the cold?   :)      

Quoting:
 No it is not right that they work like that but what do they expect?   No one told them to come here.

Now what about the American's who could be doing those jobs for a decent pay but because their are so many illegal immagrants willing to work below minimum wage and in shitty conditions, they are left out in the cold?   :)      
End Quote

No, they came here for a better way of life, but instead get treated like cr*p. As for legal citizens doing the job, they wouldn't, even if they had the opportunity and decent pay. It's not easy picking fruits and vegetables, and I doubt they could handle it.

Quoting:
If you want to come here, do it through proper channels. If done that way, I have no problem.
End Quote

I agree with you, Lester.

I think that the people who are hiring the illegals for way less than minimum and treating them like crap should also be deported.  Stick em all on an island somewhere where no one has to deal with them anymore.

I think one main requirement for coming to our country is, speak the language.  I don't care if you speak your language at home...or most of the time, but you need to know english so you can get along here, too.  I can see that when someone comes in at first may not know the language...that is when they need to take the time to learn.  We have alot of people here who refuse to learn the language...they expect us to accomodate them.  I just look at it this way...If I move to another country I would learn the language so I could get along.

Quoting:
If you want to come here, do it through proper channels. If done that way, I have no problem.
End Quote

Short but to the point.  I totally agree....with your statement, not your signature ;)

Quoting:


Short but to the point.  I totally agree....with your statement, not your signature ;)
End Quote

I wondered how long it was going to take you to get around to that!  ;D

Quoting:
What makes these creatures think they can land on our cornfields and make crop circles and ruin American soil and.....
Uh, what, not those kind of aliens? Ooops.  :-
End Quote

LMFAO hahahaha

Quoting:
I have a question for all who read and respond to this thread....

I am aware of one person who is presently offended by this topic. Any others out there offended by this thread? If so, let us know. I am pondering as to whether or not to keep this thread. Opinions? ? ?


End Quote

I find nothing offensive here Hairspray. Like I said, I have no problem with foreigners moving to this country - be they from Mexico, Honduras, Ireland or Russia - as long as they go through proper channels. Heck, I'd welcome Martians too, if there were any.  ;D

Quoting:
I have a question for all who read and respond to this thread....

I am aware of one person who is presently offended by this topic. Any others out there offended by this thread? If so, let us know. I am pondering as to whether or not to keep this thread. Opinions? ? ?


End Quote

I'm not offended at all.  I think this topic is important to all of us.  Just like Kat said, mostly everyone is handling it with maturity and respect.  I love topics like this...they add spice to the board.  ;)

Quoting:


I wondered how long it was going to take you to get around to that!  ;D
End Quote

;D

Quoting:
I was illegal and so was half my family when we came here. I was in this status for almost 3 years. Didn't know a word of English either ;) If they were to have deported me, I'd have just come back. No matter what, through thick and thin, I'd have come back - or died trying. Better than the place I used to call "home" which the US helped screw up.

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

Tarzan Boy, I'd like to know why you believe the US help screw up your host nation.  If you dont want to tell me, thats OK.

Quoting:
And just to remind everyone who has a problem with illegal immigrants from Mexico: they are the ones out there all the time in the fields and orchards, picking YOUR fruits and vegetables for less than minimum wage, and living in shacks and caves. Now can anyone say (honestly) that he/she would be out there in the rain, in the cold, and on weekends bending and picking? Unless you live on a farm, I don't think so.
End Quote

I'd have to disagree with a lot of what you said.  If they were naturalized then they would be making more than minimum wage.  Theres probly even a union somewhere they could join. But, because they broke the law there employers can give them a non-livable wage.  As for this being a horrible job, I've had worst, trust me.  

I was watching the news earlier and a senator was talking about the Mexican Federalies firing on a border patrol agent 5 miles inside the US Border.  the host asked why the government and the press weren't covering this story.  The senator had a Good answer:

"the democrates dont want to tighten border security because they will loose votes from the Mexican-American segment of the population, and the republicans don't want tighten security because they'll loose all the cheap labor that Illegal Aliens provide".  Kind of Interesting.  

Quoting:
Go to ANY other country and make a call within it....you can bet you won't hear them say....in ANY language...."For English press 1" It's fine that our country cares about foreigners but "illegals" is where I would have a problem.
End Quote

I thought it was kind of cool when it first started hapening, but now, I agree with you.  Nobody should be able to survive in Our country without speaking our national language.    

Quoting:


I thought it was kind of cool when it first started hapening, but now, I agree with you.  Nobody should be able to survive in Our country without speaking our national language.    
End Quote

Quoting:
Unfortunately, English is not officially the national language of the US. It has not been recognized by the media or our Government.And to Democrats, if it was it would be racism. ::)
Oh, please. We're not finding anything wrong with Spanish, Native American language or others. It just that most Americans speak English, and we should be able to speak with the majority in our country. But we should also not limit ourselves to what's comfortable and learn another language for fun or convenience.  :)

End Quote

Well, maybe not the whole country.  but, english is the Official language of these states:

Alabama (1990)
Alaska (1998)
Arkansas (1987)
California (1986)
Colorado (1988)
Florida (1988)
Georgia (1986 & 1996)
Hawaii (1978)
Illinois (1969)
Indiana (1984)
Iowa (2002)
Kentucky (1984)
Louisiana (1811)
Massachusetts (1975)
  Mississippi (1987)
Missouri (1998)
Montana (1995)
Nebraska (1920)
New Hampshire (1995)
North Carolina (1987)
North Dakota (1987)
South Carolina (1987)
South Dakota (1995)
Tennessee (1984)
Utah (2000)
Virginia (1981 & 1996)
Wyoming (1996)

Quoting:
Also... No one's biting each other's heads off!
End Quote

*Looks around, and then opens mouth wide and bites off RnRF's head, then YC's, and Goldie's, and BadAngel's and J.C.'s*

Burp....

Quoting:


*Looks around, and then opens mouth wide and bites off RnRF's head, then YC's, and Goldie's, and BadAngel's and J.C.'s*

Burp....
End Quote

I'm more of a kneecap kind of person myself.... ;D

Quoting:
I think that the people who are hiring the illegals for way less than minimum and treating them like crap should also be deported.  Stick em all on an island somewhere where no one has to deal with them anymore.
End Quote

We tried that once: it's called Australia... In effect, are you not saying that illegal immigrants ought to have certain human rights?

Phil
PS Hairspray - please don't nuke this thread: it's been very interesting for a non-US bod looking in from the outside.  I can't see how such a wide-ranging set of opinions can really be counted offensive, and if one or two posts do cross the bounds of good taste then surely that's a matter for those individual messages rather than the entire thread.

Quoting:
Did I come off as "offended"? By all means, don't delete this thread. I like to read how misinformed some of us are when it comes to such issues...

Oy, here's a plan. You know how some of the people in the US complaint about the illegal immigrant issue and want to bill Mexico for it? Well, hey, I think that's fine. In return, I would also like ALL Latin American countries to bill the United States for all the pollution and all-around destruction their corporations and foreign policy have made from the Spanish-American War to the present "drug-war" in Colombia. I think South America's tab will be a much bigger one anyway. Heck! That would mean giving up 25% of the country which the US took from Mexico after the Mexican-American War (yeah, there was such a thing. Imagine that?). And seriously, Spanish was spoken for almost 400 years before some brute dumbasses in the present day decided to make English the "official" language (and did anyone know that the California's State Constitution is written in BOTH Spanish AND English? Wow, holy sh1t Batman!). Screw that, I say. Even Canada has a French-speaking population and they made some really strict laws regarding that. China has some 20 dialects spoken within its borders. Russia has more than the Russian language to contend with. Mexico (yeah, Mexico, wow...they have a few native tongues spoken - especially in the southern areas...they don't even know Spanish that well, if at all!). Ireland has the native Gaelic spoken here and there (if I'm wrong, please point that out). Singapore has FOUR "official" languages (and most of the population are bilingual). Seriously, the "fat, lazy American" stereotype spread all over the third world is beginning to come true when the citizens of such a vast, rich country don't know squat about the history of their own country - and that made the news recently. So forget yer stupid "official" language rule and git back to work.

End Quote

 You say were "uniformed".  How Have we done anything to destroy the rest of America.   We shouldn't have to give anything to anybody. The Mexican-American war was just that a war and both sides were at fault.  Here's what the real deal is the U.S. is the richest country in the world.  People are jellous and want retribution because of that fact.

 Opinions like this really upset me.  How is the drug war in Columbia the U.S. Fault? If Columbians hadn't decided to harvest drugs there wouldn't be a problem.  Wait its the exact oppositeof what you said Columbia should be paying us.

 Another thing, our corporations cannot build a factory in another nation without the approvial of that nations government (remember mexico pushing for NAFTA).  So blame the governments of these countries not ours.  

 English needs to be the Official language of the U.S.. You can not be successful in the U.S. without the knowing how to speak english.  Its taught in our schools, used in the courts, and more people in the US speak it than any other language.  

Quoting:
Did I come off as "offended"? By all means, don't delete this thread.
Tarzan Boy
End Quote

Firstly, it was not you, but Alicia14 to whom I was referring. She objected to this thread.

Secondly, everyone has a right to vent and express their opinions, just as you had a right to your long rant up there.

There's absolutely no reason why we cannot have this discussion without having to resort to insults.

Remember, these are all your opinions. An opinion is an opinion - nothing more.

Quoting:


*Looks around, and then opens mouth wide and bites off RnRF's head, then YC's, and Goldie's, and BadAngel's and J.C.'s*

Burp....
End Quote

Quoting:

In effect, are you not saying that illegal immigrants ought to have certain human rights?

Phil

End Quote

That is exactly what I am saying...just because someone is in another country illegally doesn't mean they deserve to be treated badly.  Most immigrants are trying to better their lives, my problem is with the ones who come here, live off the govt and don't even try to learn the language.

I know that it is difficult for adults to learn a second language, but it can be done.  Alot of people in Utah screamed about the legislature wanting them to give up their culture.  It is not about culture...you can speak what ever language you want...the only thing that I would like to see is people who live here know the language enough to survive.  I worked at 7-11 with a Korean man who was an engineer until he came to the US.  It was a big step down for him...he said he couldn't find a good job because people assumed that he was dumb because he was still learning the language.  I think this is wrong.  By the time I worked with him, he was going to college (again) and learning Spanish.  (Now there is a book to see...a korean spanish book...pretty cool)

Tarzanboy, Alicia...I am sorry if you looked at any of my posts and thought I was putting down immigrants....I wasn't.  My only point is if you are going to live in the US, learn English so you can survive....you will go much farther.

Quoting:


Well, maybe not the whole country.  but, english is the Official language of these states:

Alabama (1990)
Alaska (1998)
Arkansas (1987)
California (1986)
Colorado (1988)
Florida (1988)
Georgia (1986 & 1996)
Hawaii (1978)
Illinois (1969)
Indiana (1984)
Iowa (2002)
Kentucky (1984)
Louisiana (1811)
Massachusetts (1975)
  Mississippi (1987)
Missouri (1998)
Montana (1995)
Nebraska (1920)
New Hampshire (1995)
North Carolina (1987)
North Dakota (1987)
South Carolina (1987)
South Dakota (1995)
Tennessee (1984)
Utah (2000)
Virginia (1981 & 1996)
Wyoming (1996)
End Quote

Quoting:

If they were naturalized then they would be making more than minimum wage.  
End Quote

Uh, no. They'd just be replaced by workers who would consent to sub-standard conditions and wages. Until employers say, "Hey, sure, I'd LOVE to pay a legal citizen $8.40 an hour instead of giving Pedro ten dollars for a day! Sign me up! And find me a flag... And while I'm at it, I'm sure I can afford to raise the cost of my product three hundred per cent to cover my overhead. Consumers won't mind, because it's the right thing to do."

It's this way. Supply and demand don't account for emotional ramifications. Shouldn't someone be given the chance to get out of life-threatening conditions? Shouldn't a mother be allowed to go someplace where her child has food? Shouldn't a father take his son somewhere that the army won't strap a bomb to his body and make him slaughter civilians at the age of nine? And shouldn't they be allowed to do this even IF IT'S SUNDAY AND ALL THE GOVERNMENT OFFICES ARE CLOSED? How do you expect them to educate themselves on what the "legal" procedure is if they're too frightened of being deported?

Emotional

BUT, why should my hard-earned dollars go to those who don't also donate to the tax pool? This is a capitalist society and the fundamentals of our government demand that each member pay their dues and if you want something for free, move to Switzerland. The dollar is the bottom line and illegal immigrants are stealing that dollar quite literally. Social programs, I pay for. Public education, I pay for. Welfare, I pay for. Affordable housing, medical care, roads, water, insurance rates... I'm paying for this and I don't want to pay for someone who's taking me for a ride!

Financial

Me? Oh, I'm a Gemini. Haven't I mentioned?

Quoting:
Uh, no. They'd just be replaced by workers who would consent to sub-standard conditions and wages. Until employers say, "Hey, sure, I'd LOVE to pay a legal citizen $8.40 an hour instead of giving Pedro ten dollars for a day! Sign me up! And find me a flag... And while I'm at it, I'm sure I can afford to raise the cost of my product three hundred per cent to cover my overhead. Consumers won't mind, because it's the right thing to do."
End Quote

You bring up a good Point. If our INS system was still intact (and the reason it is not intact is because of the Left), then there would be nobody here to take those jobs at low pay and substandard conditions.  

Quoting:


You bring up a good Point. If our INS system was still intact (and the reason it is not intact is because of the Left), then there would be nobody here to take those jobs at low pay and substandard conditions.  
End Quote

Yeah, but what would be funding the expanded INS? MY TAX DOLLARS! So they get me coming and going. (No dinner, no lube.)

Quoting:
How is the drug war in Columbia the U.S. Fault?
End Quote

It's not the fact that there is a drugs war in Columbia, but the way that "war" is being fought - there is a very strong hypocrisy that runs through especially American foreign policy which seems to think that for the US the end truly does justify the means; for everyone else, it doesn't.  I'm not only getting at America here: almost every country in the world can be accused of the same thing (our government especially), it's just that it's at its most prevalent and noticeable from the US at the moment.


on May 22nd, 2002, 6:58pm, dagwood wrote:

Quoting:
That is exactly what I am saying...just because someone is in another country illegally doesn't mean they deserve to be treated badly.  Most immigrants are trying to better their lives, my problem is with the ones who come here, live off the govt and don't even try to learn the language.
End Quote

Thanks - that's what I read into your comments, but wanted to be sure that's what you were saying.  I agree with pretty much all of what you've said.


on May 22nd, 2002, 3:31pm, Tarzan Boy wrote:

Quoting:
I like to read how misinformed some of us are when it comes to such issues...
End Quote

Ah, the certainties of youth  Don't you think there's just a touch of pot and kettle here?  A lot of what you say is valid, but you do let yourself down with your debating style: calm down a bit and let people read what you actually mean rather than setting yourself up to be shot down by flames all the time

Phil

Quoting:




... Shouldn't someone be given the chance to get out of life-threatening conditions? Shouldn't a mother be allowed to go someplace where her child has food? Shouldn't a father take his son somewhere that the army won't strap a bomb to his body and make him slaughter civilians at the age of nine? And shouldn't they be allowed to do this even IF IT'S SUNDAY AND ALL THE GOVERNMENT OFFICES ARE CLOSED? How do you expect them to educate themselves on what the "legal" procedure is if they're too frightened of being deported?...

End Quote

When there are children involved I am personally much more sympathetic.  The chilren, and whatever family members are with them should be able to get food and medical care without fear.  But there is a different procedure for refugee immigrants than there is for everone else.

The perception (around my neck of the woods, anyways) is that immigrants who apply for refugee status are approved and legalized much faster than someone who is not in fear of their lives, either through violence or starvation. Most of the people in my neighborhood are angry at illegals who come from reasonably safe places with plenty of job opportunities, who come here to take advantage of what is seen as lax and permissive welfare rules.

Part of the recent welfare reform was designed for that. (But the main reform reason was to get everyone off welfare and into a job, citizens and immigrants alike.)  Last year, my mothers landlord, with the help of the INS, finally evicted a family of illigal aliens living in one of his properties (for the record, they were not members of any ethnic minority group).  All of them were collecting either welfare, or SSI (Social Security Disability payments).  The were collecting for at least four non-existant children.  They were also dealing drugs and, (how do I put this?) running an "escort service" with underage girls.  These are the kind of people no one wants around, legal or not.  But when there is a spectacular arrest, the media tends to emphasize it when they are illegal.

Quoting:


Firstly, it was not you, but Alicia14 to whom I was referring. She objected to this thread.

Secondly, everyone has a right to vent and express their opinions, just as you had a right to your long rant up there.

There's absolutely no reason why we cannot have this discussion without having to resort to insults.

Remember, these are all your opinions. An opinion is an opinion - nothing more.
End Quote

Yeah, I had an opinion and it was deleted and if insults are the reason for it, then I would start from the top. Seriously, just because it isn't painted in such colourful language doesn't mean it can remain posted. Hey, I find the lack of information on some of these opinions as insulting. I find the reason to justify my opinion, when all the information available is just a click away or at the library, as insulting. Everyone has an opinion, but I have a "rant"? Come on. I'm just glad that this time, the stupid ones don't get a whole lot of say in this when it comes to instituting it into a law (ha! Prop 187, what a joke). I say, "if they don't like it, they can move away somewhere else," right ::) Quis contra nos?

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:


Yeah, I had an opinion and it was deleted and if insults are the reason for it, then I would start from the top. Seriously, just because it isn't painted in such colourful language doesn't mean it can remain posted. Hey, I find the lack of information on some of these opinions as insulting. I find the reason to justify my opinion, when all the information available is just a click away or at the library, as insulting. Everyone has an opinion, but I have a "rant"? Come on....

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

"Rant" Synonyms:

Rage
Fume
Rave
Roar
Yell
Rail
Scream
Holler
Shout

Thus, yours was a rant by definition, TB. The deletion of your post was nothing personal. Forum Guidelines were not followed, Plain and simple.

Quoting:


Yeah, I had an opinion and it was deleted and if insults are the reason for it, then I would start from the top. Seriously, just because it isn't painted in such colourful language doesn't mean it can remain posted. Hey, I find the lack of information on some of these opinions as insulting. I find the reason to justify my opinion, when all the information available is just a click away or at the library, as insulting. Everyone has an opinion, but I have a "rant"? Come on. I'm just glad that this time, the stupid ones don't get a whole lot of say in this when it comes to instituting it into a law (ha! Prop 187, what a joke). I say, "if they don't like it, they can move away somewhere else," right ::) Quis contra nos?

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

Proposition 187? a joke? The only joke is Californias liberal court that would not let it become law.  I wish they had the guts to listen to California voters.  I agree with proposition 187, Illegal aliens don't deserve free healthcare or free education. They are Criminals they broke the law, and law-abiding citizens got to pay for their benefits?  I dont even have free healthcare and I was born here.    

Quoting:
Let's not go there, boys and girls. Enough is enough!
End Quote

I was thinking the same thing.

Quoting:


Proposition 187? a joke? The only joke is Californias liberal court that would not let it become law.  I wish they had the guts to listen to California voters.  I agree with proposition 187, Illegal aliens don't deserve free healthcare or free education. They are Criminals they broke the law, and law-abiding citizens got to pay for their benefits?  I dont even have free healthcare and I was born here.    
End Quote

I agree with Screwball54 why does it seem that people born here pay taxes on services that we cannot use? Don't even get me started on the Michigan Law School problem, but that is a topic for a different forum

Quoting:
How come it's okay for us to go and live at other places but then when people come here it's not okay?
End Quote

 Americans living abroad Have to get a passport and stamp it with a Visa form the consulate of the country they wish to move to.  If the country doesn't approve the american can't move there.  Illegal aliens don't have permission to enter our country, they just due.  I don't think other countries have a problem with unemployed americans migrating to thier country illegally, and applying for government benefits.

Quoting:
How come it's okay for us to go and live at other places but then when people come here it's not okay?
End Quote

I don't think that's the issue. The issue is about people who come into this country illegally. Most people from our country who go and live other places do so by all the proper procedures, passports, visa, "whathaveyou".

Quoting:
 

Seriously, you must be jesting. No reasonable person with a fair grasp of US history would even consider making such a statement unless it is a mere joke - of which I don't get. The Mexican-American War is just? You're the ONLY person who has said this. You mean the rampant land hunger of US citizens for Mexican territory and then the US declaring war on Mexico for a bunch of squatters was JUST? There was a time when Mexico dreaded the invasion of the Anglos and their intolerance for nonwhites. The US was the parasite that devoured Mexico and with the war they acquired New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and California (along with all the gold!).  Um, yeah, just. I don't consider myself a follower, but this time Henry David Thoreau was right (do you even know who he is?). I would go in-depth, but what's the use? You're school teachers failed you miserably.


 Opinions like this really upset me.  How is the drug war in Columbia the U.S. Fault? If Columbians hadn't decided to harvest drugs there wouldn't be a problem.  Wait its the exact oppositeof what you said Columbia should be paying us.


Opinions like yours really upset me because they're based on heresay. Have you ever read ANY history books? Call me a nerd, but I actually paid attention in my world history class...And if this is the mind of the typical voter, it's great that the California vote can be contested. I would definitely resist the vote of the stupid and the feeble-minded who have nothing better to do than to blame the immigrants for government pork barrel spending of which they spend more on Corporate Welfare than anything else.


 Another thing, our corporations cannot build a factory in another nation without the approvial of that nations government (remember mexico pushing for NAFTA).  


Right, that's only Mexico. What about about all the other nations? Yeah, there's a huge world further down from Mexico and, no, we're not ALL Mexicans. Geez, I should have seen this coming...




 English needs to be the Official language of the U.S.. You can not be successful in the U.S. without the knowing how to speak english.  Its taught in our schools, used in the courts, and more people in the US speak it than any other language.  



I've seen a lot of social failures on welfare and leeching SSI benefits and they speak fluent English, should we round 'em up too? I'm pretty good with the laso (that's "rope").

Tarzan Boy



End Quote

Tarzan Boy-
It was Just a war it only lasted 2 years and it was over 150 years ago.  You want a quote concerning the war heres one for you:

After reiterated menaces, Mexico has passed the boundary of the United States, has invaded our territory and shed American blood upon the American Soil. She has proclaimed that hostilities have commenced, and that the two nations are at war."

President James K. Polk, May 11, 1846


like I said before both sides were at fault.  You can find web page after webpage saying americas at fault, I can find web page after webpage saying mexicos at fault.  You can't even accept the middle ground.  

I would rather the government spent its money helping corporations instead of helping Illegal Imigrants. Why? How could I be so cold harted?  Because a successful corporation creates jobs. jobs for Irish-americans, jobs for Italian-americans, jobs for mexican americans.  How many jobs are created by giving free benefits do imigrants? Zero.

As for Paying attention in history class, maybe you believe what their teaching in history nowadays (wich is far from the truth), and thats why you hate the country that you live in so much.  The Country that I defend.

I understand Illegal aliens are not the only ones living off the government.  But welfare is a subject for a different thread. so is the US destruction of the americas, If that really happened  


I don't appreciate you attacking my knowlege of history, or calling me feeble minded.  I have never Insulted you for voicing your opinion, nor do i intend to in the future.

Quoting:
I knew and I even said so in the first post on this thread that it would start a fight. I'm sick of the subject, we all think different things, and all we're doing is arguing. This isn't a debate anymore, it's just a stupid reason to rag on each other. I think everyone had gotten their opinions across by now. What do you think?
End Quote

I have to agree its about to get ugly, and it probaly should end, but I can't just let someone insult me without defending myself.  

Quoting:
Now, now. Are we going to have to go around deleting every debatable thread on every board? Goodness knows, there's been a surge of them lately. I asked once before if this thread should go. No one had a problem with it then. So.....

Do I take it everyone feels differently now? ? ?

End Quote

please dont delete the thread, I'm upset at TB's last post and I'm sure he's upset with my posts.  If it starts to get down to insults and not talking about the issue, then maybe.

Quoting:


*Looks around, and then opens mouth wide and bites off RnRF's head, then YC's, and Goldie's, and BadAngel's and J.C.'s*

Burp....
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Did I taste good? !!!!! ;D

Quoting:



Did I taste good? !!!!! ;D
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YUM!

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How come it's okay for us to go and live at other places but then when people come here it's not okay?
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Alicia I think that for the most part people who do leave here for other countries probably do it legally. How many times have you hear Americans getting deported back to the US for simply trying to cross the boarder or being there illegaly? Thats right most get deported for doing something stupid like defacing a wall with spraypaint... Now I'm NOT saying that it doesnt happen, but the numbers compared to what gets kicked out of the US are far less.

Quoting:
Now, now. Are we going to have to go around deleting every debatable thread on every board? Goodness knows, there's been a surge of them lately. I asked once before if this thread should go. No one had a problem with it then. So.....

Do I take it everyone feels differently now? ? ?


End Quote

I don't think it should be deleted, a lot of points were made that are worth thinking about.  But it does seem to be that everything that could be said has been said, and a fight may break out soon.

Why not just "lock" the thread? So people can still read it, but no more posts to it? There was one that was locked before on a much less controversial subject, but people were beginning to lose their civilized manners.  I can't find the thread now, it may be one of the ones that were lost in the crash.

Quoting:
I would rather the government spent its money helping corporations instead of helping Illegal Imigrants. Why? How could I be so cold harted?  Because a successful corporation creates jobs. jobs for Irish-americans, jobs for Italian-americans, jobs for mexican americans.  How many jobs are created by giving free benefits do imigrants? Zero.

A: I have one wor for this: ENRON. Let me say a few more actually: GM's 250,000 worker lay-offs at the time they made a record profit of $3 BILLION. Chrysler's paycuts at the time of the Daimmler merger. The California power crisis. Merrill Lynch's lying to unsuspecting traders. Manpower International's temp workers who replace other worker with half the pay and no benefits. ADM? Arthur Andersen? Do you need any more or is this enough proof that money-laundering corporations are the biggest waste of tax-payer money in recent history. Immigrants don't get "free benefits" since they pay taxes like everyone else (and I don't mean sales taxes) - unless they're day-laborers (and they earn less than minimum wage), but they make private contractors LOTS of money when they renovate for the rich.

As for Paying attention in history class, maybe you believe what their teaching in history nowadays (wich is far from the truth), and thats why you hate the country that you live in so much.  The Country that I defend.

A: Um, yeah, since it comes from people with doctorates in the field and they have a concensus on the subject, I would have to take their knowledge of it as fact. I don't hate the country, just the narrow-minded people who feel they must blame immigrants for the country's financial woes when they are clearly paying into the system like everyone else.

...is a subject for a different thread. so is the US destruction of the americas, If that really happened  

A: Wrong again. It is exactly because of the destructive US foreign policy in Latin America that many immigrants are here. Try reading the history of the last 40 years of Guatemala, El Salvador, Grenada, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Colombia (NOT "Columbia." Geezus...), Venezuela, Peru, Ecuador, and Chile for starters. It REALLY happened. I wouldn't in this ungrateful country if it didn't.

I don't appreciate you attacking my knowlege of history, or calling me feeble minded.  I have never Insulted you for voicing your opinion, nor do i intend to in the future.

A: Mea culpa. I meant to call feeble-minded and stupid those who support and vote for neo-Jim Crow laws like prop 187, as well as the xenophobes who know nothing of what they speak and spread filthy lies about immigrants. It is a direct affront to my family, my acquaintances, and myself. You better believe that I fit that honor-bound hispanic sort to a T, so in this them-against-me type of world I will lash back. Mea culpa, again.

Tarzan Boy
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TB-
I'm sorry about the Spelling error I'm just used to spelling "Columbia" since I grew up next to the Columbia river, lived in Columbia County, and theirs also British Columbia (not Colombia).  Granted some corporations fail, and some are dishonest,  but for every one that is dishonest or fails, 10 others are successful.  If I had my way the government wouldn't give money to anybody.  

   So they have doctorate, anyone can get one, that doesn't mean they are viewing history without a political agenda, most instructors at Universities have a left wing socialist agenda.  Sure, the US ruined all the countries in latin america, How? by giving them foriegn aid?  

Legal Immigrants pay into the system.  Illegal aliens don't pay income taxes, how could they? but they want benefits the taxpayers pay for.   Thats why proposition 187 should have passed.

I'm not Hannity and your not Colmes (do you even know who they are?) so lets just drop It.  

Quoting:
Hey Screwball and Tarzan Boy! I think we should present you each with a lawn dart and let you spar. In speedos. For the entertainment of us ladies!  ;) ;D  :-*
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Now THERE'S an opinion I am behind one hundred per cent. (MMMMMM...behiiiiiinds)

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Now THERE'S an opinion I am behind one hundred per cent. (MMMMMM...behiiiiiinds)
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Although I'm more of a jockey type of guy, I'll wear the Speedos (just as long as it's not a thong! :P).  Name the place, the terms, and the prizes (hey, this monkey doesn't dance without an incentive).

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:



Although I'm more of a jockey type of guy, I'll wear the Speedos (just as long as it's not a thong! :P).  Name the place, the terms, and the prizes (hey, this monkey doesn't dance without an incentive).

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

Humm how about a night on the town with Langdon?  ;)

Quoting:
Although I'm more of a jockey type of guy, I'll wear the Speedos (just as long as it's not a thong! :P).  Name the place, the terms, and the prizes (hey, this monkey doesn't dance without an incentive).

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

Well, you can come up here to the Valley. Langdon, do you have a video camera? Now where can we get the lawn darts, now that they are illegal? ???  And we haven't heard yet from our other contender....  ;) Ah... virtual Madeline can be on hand with prizes.. ask FBVP about that..... ;D

Quoting:


Well, you can come up here to the Valley. Langdon, do you have a video camera? Now where can we get the lawn darts, now that they are illegal? ???  And we haven't heard yet from our other contender....  ;) Ah... virtual Madeline can be on hand with prizes.. ask FBVP about that..... ;D
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Are you sure you really want to see a 200lb white guy in a speedo?  California is two far away for me to travel anyway.  Maybe one of my relatives can go and take my place? (They live in the bay area)  

Quoting:


Are you sure you really want to see a 200lb white guy in a speedo?  California is two far away for me to travel anyway.  Maybe one of my relatives can go and take my place? (They live in the bay area)  
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Well, you were in the military, right? So I assume that is 200 lbs of rippling muscle! And I thought you lived in California. So you actually want to designate a substitute "champion"?  ;) Well, be sure and pick one for us with a hot bod.  ;D

Quoting:


Well, you were in the military, right? So I assume that is 200 lbs of rippling muscle! And I thought you lived in California. So you actually want to designate a substitute "champion"?  ;) Well, be sure and pick one for us with a hot bod.  ;D
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I only wish i lived in California

Let me put it this way, when I got out of he military I had 240lbs of "ripping Muscle"(aka: Fat).  Unless your a seal the navy isn't the best spot for staying in shape (try running on a tread mill during high seas).  One good thing about not having a job is I have had plenty of time to workout (hense the 40lb wieght Loss).    

Quoting:


I only wish i lived in California

Let me put it this way, when I got out of he military I had 240lbs of "ripping Muscle"(aka: Fat).  Unless your a seal the navy isn't the best spot for staying in shape (try running on a tread mill during high seas).  One good thing about not having a job is I have had plenty of time to workout (hense the 40lb wieght Loss).    
End Quote

Well, I've heard that Lawn Dart Sparring is a very good weight loss exercize! ;)

Quoting:


Well, I've heard that Lawn Dart Sparring is a very good weight loss exercize! ;)
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It must of been 10 or 12 years ago now, but when I lived in Portland (OR), two people were throwing darts at each other. One of the darts went through the guys eye and lodged in the guys brain.  I'd rather Keep the wieght from my eye and brain on my body, Thank you.

Quoting:


Well, you can come up here to the Valley. Langdon, do you have a video camera? Now where can we get the lawn darts, now that they are illegal? ???  And we haven't heard yet from our other contender....  ;) Ah... virtual Madeline can be on hand with prizes.. ask FBVP about that..... ;D
End Quote

Hey, you know, I have nothing to do on Wednesday, so I can kick it in the Valley instead of SD or LA (their art museums rawk!). I have a camera too (it's a crappy hi-8, but it can do mosaic for any gross and violent parts). All you guys need to bring is some Merlot (last time I bought one of those it cost me a bundle! $150 for crushed grapes?!) and some lounge music. I couldn't parade around in a Speedo without some Ray Conniff or Esquivel in the background - think: Austin Powers minus the hair suit and bad teeth 8).

Tarzan Boy

Virtua whuzza? Naw man, none of that whack artificial junk. I don't even drink carbonated and high sugared drinks.

Quoting:


Humm how about a night on the town with Langdon?  ;)
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Was that a threat or a bribe?

Quoting:


Hey, you know, I have nothing to do on Wednesday, so I can kick it in the Valley instead of SD or LA (their art museums rawk!). I have a camera too (it's a crappy hi-8, but it can do mosaic for any gross and violent parts). All you guys need to bring is some Merlot (last time I bought one of those it cost me a bundle! $150 for crushed grapes?!) and some lounge music. I couldn't parade around in a Speedo without some Ray Conniff or Esquivel in the background - think: Austin Powers minus the hair suit and bad teeth 8).

Tarzan Boy

Virtua whuzza? Naw man, none of that whack artificial junk. I don't even drink carbonated and high sugared drinks.
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How about Dean Martin? That's the closest thing to lounge music that I have. But now we have to get Screwball a plane ticket; he is not in LA as I thought. :(  And he seems reticent about lawn darts...I know.. you can both spar with orange cones--I have lots of those!  :D :D :D

Quoting:
Will this thread ever die? I'm begining to regret starting it.
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Ah...once you open a can of worms, the only way to recan them is to use a larger can... ???
But at least the post has gone from dire to delirious!  ;D

Quoting:
Ah...once you open a can of worms, the only way to recan them is to use a larger can... ???
But at least the post has gone from dire to delirious!  ;D
End Quote

Ah, delirious threadworms?  Much better off in the can...

Confused?  You won't be till you watch next week's episode of ;-)

Phil

Quoting:


Well, you can come up here to the Valley. Langdon, do you have a video camera? Now where can we get the lawn darts, now that they are illegal? ???  And we haven't heard yet from our other contender....  ;) Ah... virtual Madeline can be on hand with prizes.. ask FBVP about that..... ;D
End Quote

Oh yeah, great !  Virtual Madeline - she broke my heart !   :'(

I've been reading this thread from start to finish for the last half hour or so, but never thought I would get a mention in it.....!

In a round about way I also got a mention from Philbo......was it guilt by association or what ?   ;)


FBVP   :)

Quoting:


Was that a threat or a bribe?
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What do YOU think? Personally, I think the presence of Zella and you would be incentive enough to venture outside of the 92691/92692 zip code.

Oh, and Zella, I got some lounge music - it's all instrumental, but it's got the spacey organ version of "Patricia" and "The Girl From Ipanema." Plus, I can pick a bunch of cones on the way over: are we going to throw them or spar with them hand-to-hand? Or yell at each other using them as megaphones?

Tarzan Boy

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:
What do YOU think? Personally, I think the presence of Zella and you would be incentive enough to venture outside of the 92691/92692 zip code.
End Quote

Ahhhh.... (Bats eyelashes)  ::)

Quoting:
are we going to throw them or spar with them hand-to-hand? Or yell at each other using them as megaphones?
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I was picturing something like you and Screwball galloping towards each other, cones outstretched in jousting position. Perhaps on pantomime horses, Monty Python style. Okay, now who wants to dress up as the pantomime horses? ??? We need four volunteers....

Quoting:


I was picturing something like you and Screwball galloping towards each other, cones outstretched in jousting position. Perhaps on pantomime horses, Monty Python style. Okay, now who wants to dress up as the pantomime horses? ??? We need four volunteers....
End Quote

I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts..... ;) ;D ;) ;D


...I'm just not on the west coast. :-/

(and yes, I know that can be taken a different way. :o :-[ :o )