On one hand, Puffy's Bad Boy Records was prominent in the hip hop industry since 1994, and Biggie was the face of east coast hip hop during the mid-90s, remaining significant on the charts for a whole year after his murder in 1997.  However, it wasn't until 1997 that Puff Daddy himself became a significant MC for the label (Mase was mostly popular by this time as well, despite a guest verse in 112's Only You), and the overall tone of hip hop began to shift noticeably that year, even with lingering influences from of the mafioso movement.  Whereas 1994-1996 east coast hip hop was a combination of high life luxury, braggadocio, and socially conscious undertones, by 1997 the genre had pretty much flanderized into the former two only, an overarching tone that would come to define the entire 2000s decade.  Extravagant wealth was a recurring concept in mafioso rap, but starting with Can't Nobody Hold Me Down, the dark and complex overtones that supported it were gone, causing materialistic hip hop to evolve more into a series of club-banging radio hits than an honest exploration of the life of a black gangster.  The years 1993-1996 are all considered some of the very best for east coast hip hop, but 1997 is almost never factored into the equation the same way.  Despite the definite variety on Biggie's Life After Death, the biggest hit singles from that album don't even scream mid-90s, imo; Hypnotize is mostly a braggadocio anthem with a radio-friendly hook, while Mo' Money, Mo' Problems only features one verse from Biggie, with the rest of the song going to Puffy and Mase and their usual boastings about money and power.

During 1998-1999, Bad Boy started to decline in popularity, while Jay-Z, Ja Rule, DMX, etc. became the major standard bearers of New York hip hop.  Whereas the Bad Boy era of 1997-1998 was still unmistakably 90s, the material released by the artists I listed above led hip hop more directly into the early 2000s.  That being said, Bad Boy Records didn't disappear after 1999; it just didn't monopolize the hip hop industry like it did before.  Still, the materialistic direction hip hop began to take in early 1997 did not reverse, even though it began to diversify in its representation.

I know a lot of people here consider 1997 and maybe even early 1998 the core 90s, while others, such as myself believe the transition into the late 90s came closer to the release of Can't Nobody Hold Me Down and the murder of Biggie.  I'm just curious how other people here view 1997 and 1998 in relation to the preceding and successive periods for hip hop, if they were mostly a continuation of earlier trends or the  real beginning of hip hop as it would be during the millennial era and the early 2000s.

Definitely late 90s, not even core 90s at the slightest. The core 90s is like 1992-1997 to me, and 1998 was the year when the millennial era began. Boy bands were part of the late 90s/early 2000s, and no one really gave a crap about them ever since 2004, except for nostalgic 90s girls.

Definitely late 90s, not even core 90s at the slightest. The core 90s is like 1992-1997 to me, and 1998 was the year when the millennial era began. Boy bands were part of the late 90s/early 2000s, and no one really gave a crap about them ever since 2004, except for nostalgic 90s girls.


1997 was the year Bad Boy Records really peaked, though.  If we're factoring where songs like It's All About the Benjamins and Mo' Money, Mo' Problems fit in, then by your logic they were core 90s.  I personally categorize them far more with the late 90s, since they have flashier production and more purely materialistic lyrics than the 1994-1996 Bad Boy hits, but I can also sort of see why people could separate them from rappers like Jay-Z, DMX, and the like, since they still have a very obvious 90s flavor that the newer millennial stuff lacks.

1997 was the year Bad Boy Records really peaked, though.  If we're factoring where songs like It's All About the Benjamins and Mo' Money, Mo' Problems fit in, then by your logic they were core 90s.  I personally categorize them far more with the late 90s, since they have flashier production and more purely materialistic lyrics than the 1994-1996 Bad Boy hits, but I can also sort of see why people could separate them from rappers like Jay-Z, DMX, and the like, since they still have a very obvious 90s flavor that the newer millennial stuff lacks.


Oh, I thought you were talking about boy bands from the late 90s/early 2000s. I guess 1997-98 is kinda like half core 90s/half late 90s for Bad Boy Records' peak.

1997 was the year Bad Boy Records really peaked, though.  If we're factoring where songs like It's All About the Benjamins and Mo' Money, Mo' Problems fit in, then by your logic they were core 90s.  I personally categorize them far more with the late 90s, since they have flashier production and more purely materialistic lyrics than the 1994-1996 Bad Boy hits, but I can also sort of see why people could separate them from rappers like Jay-Z, DMX, and the like, since they still have a very obvious 90s flavor that the newer millennial stuff lacks.


True but its possible that Life after Death was recorded for the most part in the mid 90's. Also I'll throw my two cents into this. I think 97' still had a bit of a mid 90's hip hop influence with Puff Daddy and Biggie's last album Life after Death. However, I would say late 97' & 98' is definitely leaning more on the early 00's side as it was around when artists like Jay Z, Eminem, & Outkast started to get big. These people we usually associate with the early-mid 00's not so much the core 90's.

True but its possible that Life after Death was recorded for the most part in the mid 90's. Also I'll throw my two cents into this. I think 97' still had a bit of a mid 90's hip hop influence with Puff Daddy and Biggie's last album Life after Death. However, I would say late 97' & 98' is definitely leaning more on the early 00's side as it was around when artists like Jay Z, Eminem, & Outkast started to get big. These people we usually associate with the early-mid 00's not so much the core 90's.


Actually, OutKast was popular since Player's Ball in 1994 and even had a top 15 hit in 1996 with Elevators (Me & You).  Eminem became popular in 1999 and peaked in 2000-2003.  Until Can I Get A... and Doo Wop (That Thing) became huge towards the end of 1998, east coast hip hop was basically all about Puff Daddy and Mase, as well as Biggie's posthumous recordings.

Actually, OutKast was popular since Player's Ball in 1994 and even had a top 15 hit in 1996 with Elevators (Me & You).  Eminem became popular in 1999 and peaked in 2000-2003.  Until Can I Get A... and Doo Wop (That Thing) became huge towards the end of 1998, east coast hip hop was basically all about Puff Daddy and Mase, as well as Biggie's posthumous recordings.


True you got a point there! I guess in the realm of hip hop I would say 97' was still pretty much in the core while 98' was leaning more towards early 00's

I don't know... I'd say a bridge. You could pick whichever one you'd like. Some songs, such as "I'll Be" by Foxy Brown, "I'll Be Missing You", "Sky's the Limit", "Going Back to Cali", "Kick in the Door", "Crush on You", "Not Tonight", "What You Want", and "Cupid" sound core '90s in some way or another. "I'll Be Missing You" and "Sky's the Limit" are what I see as conscious hip-hop. Generally more introspective and serious than the other party-like songs popular at the time. Would definitely fit in with the mid '90s.

I would say it's both as by 1999 or 2000, the label didn't have anymore hit songs since other rappers emerge into popularity. In addition, Puffy became P. Diddy back in 2001, so that style of hip-hop had changed. Here are 2 songs from the 1997-98 period and 2 from the 2001-02 time-frame. All of them are from Bad Boy Records.

1997-98

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJAgGB7jKZU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ4tNmnuMgQ

2001-02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCGkvlP9OlA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cu4e1ryB34

Maybe both era's. The lyrics were definitely leaning more 00's because of the excess of cars and jewelry being raved about but the production seemed core 90's. The reason I say the production seemed more 90's was because the music of 50 Cent(especially because of Dr. Dre's production) and Nelly in 2001 or 2003 respectively was definitely more produced if you will than either Puffy or Mase's. Than again, I don't think Kanye West was that produced(maybe he is an exception) as 50 Cent or Nelly were and his era was like 2003-2007. Just to play devils advocate again a rapper like "Fabulous" his music is not that produced and he was popular in the 00's and you compare him to say Lil Jon and Crunk Music which is music that was too produced and sounded repetitive.

The interesting thing, though, is that 2000s-style urban music was popular since at least the autumn of 1997, when Timbaland and his associates became huge.  Even though Timbaland was one of the definitive producers of the 2000s decade, his production style in 1997 was surprisingly similar to his core 2000s work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_HS8H1Fb6s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UvBX3REqSY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8cFOm6VdpY

Besides Timbaland, there were also songs like this that were popular well before the 2000s began:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQRzrnH6_HY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbnoG2dsUk0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBUz2nkOKsc

If you ask me, these songs are all blatantly millennial and beyond.  Even if you don't see Bad Boy as having changed much from the mid-90s to the late 90s, songs like the ones I linked still go to show how much urban music in general had changed by the time of the label's mainstream peak.  The lack of Death Row and gangsta rap in general I think left a huge void in urban music, which was gradually filled in by what would eventually become the genre's 2000s sound.  Both of the primary elements of 2000s urban existed since 1997, but they wouldn't fully converge until 1999.