Do you think "'90s rock" is sort of a genre? The same way Mr. Mister, Starship, Survivor, etc. are often pegged as "'80s rock." I would include in this category Stone Temple Pilots, Bush, Candlebox, Collective Soul, Marcy Playground, and "radio-friendly post-alternative popo-rock" like No Doubt and the Goo Goo Dolls.

Yeah, I think '90s rock is different enough from '80s and '00s rock to warrant it being its own genre.

Yeah, I think '90s rock is different enough from '80s and '00s rock to warrant it being its own genre.


Really, there was an explosion of rock starting around 1994 that differed from grunge, which is often stereotyped as being the be-all and end-all of '90s rock, and that superseded grunge in terms of sales and mass popularity. You could probably subdivide it into the pop-punk influenced stuff, the pop-influenced stuff, and the grunge-influenced stuff. And then alt rock really diverged, with Pavement, Beck, and Liz Phair.

Really, there was an explosion of rock starting around 1994 that differed from grunge, which is often stereotyped as being the be-all and end-all of '90s rock, and that superseded grunge in terms of sales and mass popularity. You could probably subdivide it into the pop-punk influenced stuff, the pop-influenced stuff, and the grunge-influenced stuff. And then alt rock really diverged, with Pavement, Beck, and Liz Phair.



Yeah, I agree. In some ways the alt-rock stuff made after 1994 is almost more idetified with the '90s than grunge is. I suppose you could also say that 1994 was the beginning of post-grunge(Bush and early Foo Fighters). Even though it sounds nothing like it does now.

Yeah, I agree. In some ways the alt-rock stuff made after 1994 is almost more idetified with the '90s than grunge is. I suppose you could also say that 1994 was the beginning of post-grunge(Bush and early Foo Fighters). Even though it sounds nothing like it does now.


1994 was the start of the disintegration of alt rock as a genre, which was fairly consistently together around 1992 and 1993. It split into the "commercial" Smashing Pumpkins and STP and "'90s indie rock" (Beck, Pavement, Guided by Voices, Liz Phair, etc.)

There's a definite difference between like, STP and the early Foo Fighters and Nickelback. One, the former is far superior to the latter, even though it was hated on at the time. A more accurate classification is "grunge-pop", for Nickelback and Creed, since the connection to true grunge is so tenuous.

1994 was the start of the disintegration of alt rock as a genre, which was fairly consistently together around 1992 and 1993. It split into the "commercial" Smashing Pumpkins and STP and "'90s indie rock" (Beck, Pavement, Guided by Voices, Liz Phair, etc.)

There's a definite difference between like, STP and the early Foo Fighters and Nickelback. One, the former is far superior to the latter, even though it was hated on at the time. A more accurate classification is "grunge-pop", for Nickelback and Creed, since the connection to true grunge is so tenuous.



I totally agree with that. STP and the Foo Fighters I suppose should be considered true post grunge since they came out immediatly after the apex of the grunge movement and there sound is still fairly close to an average grunge act, meanwhile, Nickleback and Creed came out several years after grunge's peak popularity and the sound is pretty far removed from your average c. 1991 grunge band, but they do still have some connections to grunge so I could defidently agree with them being in a grunge-pop genre.

I totally agree with that. STP and the Foo Fighters I suppose should be considered true post grunge since they came out immediatly after the apex of the grunge movement and there sound is still fairly close to an average grunge act, meanwhile, Nickleback and Creed came out several years after grunge's peak popularity and the sound is pretty far removed from your average c. 1991 grunge band, but they do still have some connections to grunge so I could defidently agree with them being in a grunge-pop genre.


I think the connection between, say, Soundgarden and Creed is like between early Metallica and Whitesnake. Grunge-pop is sludge; it validates the criticism that grunge is sludge, something I never thought was true.-

I think the connection between, say, Soundgarden and Creed is like between early Metallica and Whitesnake. Grunge-pop is sludge; it validates the criticism that grunge is sludge, something I never thought was true.-


Do you think, in some ways, post grungers like Creed and Nickelback are even more grungy than the founding Grunge bands like Nirvana? Sure, they might not be as heavy ot rebellious in their lyrics (which was alot of the 1991-94 grunge music's appeal, especially to isolated/angry teens, or just harder rock fans who didn't like the party and pop atttitude of hair metal), but their sound is almost "sludgier".

BTW, while we're talking about Grunge in general, I always sorta thought Alice in Chains, STP and Soundgarden were in a slightly different league. They were somewhat more "heavy metal/radio rock" bands. Perhaps even '90s arena rock.

Do you think "'90s rock" is sort of a genre? The same way Mr. Mister, Starship, Survivor, etc. are often pegged as "'80s rock." I would include in this category Stone Temple Pilots, Bush, Candlebox, Collective Soul, Marcy Playground, and "radio-friendly post-alternative popo-rock" like No Doubt and the Goo Goo Dolls.


Genres are created by fallible human beings trying to interpret the divine and perfect art-form that is Rock'n'Roll.

In answer to your query...Yes, 90s rock did seem to have a certain quality...yet it also sounded like the so-called 'Indie' rock of Sonic Youth, New Order (their later stuff) in the 80s. I would classify alot of it as AOR (Adult-oriented rock) - bands like the Pumpkins, Goo Goo Dolls, Marcy Playground.etc, as it is basically Metal or Grunge-flavoured rock music.

Do you think, in some ways, post grungers like Creed and Nickelback are even more grungy than the founding Grunge bands like Nirvana? Sure, they might not be as heavy ot rebellious in their lyrics (which was alot of the 1991-94 grunge music's appeal, especially to isolated/angry teens, or just harder rock fans who didn't like the party and pop atttitude of hair metal), but their sound is almost "sludgier".

BTW, while we're talking about Grunge in general, I always sorta thought Alice in Chains, STP and Soundgarden were in a slightly different league. They were somewhat more "heavy metal/radio rock" bands. Perhaps even '90s arena rock.


Yeah, their sound is definitely sludgier, though I think in the case of Nickelback/Creed it really is an effort to cover up their lack of talent and reinforcing a stereotype of what they see as grunge music. What I see as "grunge" is not the sludge that it is so often accused of being, but more a downbeat, groove-based, heavier combo of punk and '70s-styled hard rock. Something like "Black Hole Sun" has very clear hooks and a melody.

I agree...a band like STP is sort of a "heavy metal/radio rock" or '90s arena rock band. The kind of thing where hearing about them in concert live is a huge, huge deal...like there's this 1993ish episode of The Nanny where the eldest daughter is gushing over seeing them live. Also, STP had more general appeal than many other grunge bands.

Yeah, their sound is definitely sludgier, though I think in the case of Nickelback/Creed it really is an effort to cover up their lack of talent and reinforcing a stereotype of what they see as grunge music. What I see as "grunge" is not the sludge that it is so often accused of being, but more a downbeat, groove-based, heavier combo of punk and '70s-styled hard rock. Something like "Black Hole Sun" has very clear hooks and a melody.

I agree...a band like STP is sort of a "heavy metal/radio rock" or '90s arena rock band. The kind of thing where hearing about them in concert live is a huge, huge deal...like there's this 1993ish episode of The Nanny where the eldest daughter is gushing over seeing them live. Also, STP had more general appeal than many other grunge bands.


Yeah, I'd compare STP and maybe Collective Soul as '90s equivalents of what Foreigner or Bon Jovi were to the '80s - commercial hard rock bands that you didn't have to be a hard rock fan per se to enjoy. It could even appeal to people who were into pop and ordinarily shunned metal or hard rock. Yet it was heavy enough for headbangers too.

I agree, alot of grunge is "groove oriented" more than people realize. Even "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is almost like two different songs. It's only truly heavy and "sludgy" on the choruses - the verses are pretty melodic actually.

Yeah, I'd compare STP and maybe Collective Soul as '90s equivalents of what Foreigner or Bon Jovi were to the '80s - commercial hard rock bands that you didn't have to be a hard rock fan per se to enjoy. It could even appeal to people who were into pop and ordinarily shunned metal or hard rock. Yet it was heavy enough for headbangers too.

I agree, alot of grunge is "groove oriented" more than people realize. Even "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is almost like two different songs. It's only truly heavy and "sludgy" on the choruses - the verses are pretty melodic actually.


I actually see the return of blues and funk influence to rock in the '90s as highly important. '70s rock like Led Zeppelin had a heavy blues "groove" infuence, and stuff like Parliament Funkadelic blended white rock and funk a la Sly and the Family Stone. '80s hard rock was less blues/funk influenced, whereas grunge has a heavy groove and RHCP, PJ Harvey, Beck, and the Pixies were influenced by "black guitar music" like funk and the blues just as much as white guitar music influences.

I actually see the return of blues and funk influence to rock in the '90s as highly important. '70s rock like Led Zeppelin had a heavy blues "groove" infuence, and stuff like Parliament Funkadelic blended white rock and funk a la Sly and the Family Stone. '80s hard rock was less blues/funk influenced, whereas grunge has a heavy groove and RHCP, PJ Harvey, Beck, and the Pixies were influenced by "black guitar music" like funk and the blues just as much as white guitar music influences.


I never quite thought about that before, but you're right. Hell, in that respect, '90s rock is almost more "old styled" than '80s music! There actually were alot of c. 1991 songs that sounded like they could've been recorded in the '60s/early '70s ("It Ain't Over Till it's Over" by Lenny Kravitz, or even "No Rain" by Blind Melon sounded a little retro).

The harder grunge bands also I think had some of that Black Sabbath-esque groove (alot of '90s rockers cited them as an influence).

I never quite thought about that before, but you're right. Hell, in that respect, '90s rock is almost more "old styled" than '80s music! There actually were alot of c. 1991 songs that sounded like they could've been recorded in the '60s/early '70s ("It Ain't Over Till it's Over" by Lenny Kravitz, or even "No Rain" by Blind Melon sounded a little retro).

The harder grunge bands also I think had some of that Black Sabbath-esque groove (alot of '90s rockers cited them as an influence).


Yeah...there were alot of '90s songs that could've been recorded in the early '70s with a few changes. One thing about '80s rock is that it was mostly rather "clean", even if it was hard-rocking, and lacked all but the most cursory influence from black rock like funk or blues. For example, Nirvana covered a Leadbelly song, "Where Did You Sleep Last Night?", and it sounds almost like it could've been written by them.

BTW, while we're talking about Grunge in general, I always sorta thought Alice in Chains, STP and Soundgarden were in a slightly different league. They were somewhat more "heavy metal/radio rock" bands. Perhaps even '90s arena rock.

Well Pearl Jam certainly isn't what I would call "typical grunge".It just happens their lyrics are what some people call "grungy".
I'd call Mudhoney and Green River "True grunge" ..

Yeah...there were alot of '90s songs that could've been recorded in the early '70s with a few changes. One thing about '80s rock is that it was mostly rather "clean", even if it was hard-rocking, and lacked all but the most cursory influence from black rock like funk or blues. For example, Nirvana covered a Leadbelly song, "Where Did You Sleep Last Night?", and it sounds almost like it could've been written by them.

I've heard that one before, I agree it doesn't sound too far from some of their more accoustic material ("About a Girl" from their debut album is similar -- it came out in '89 but is very "90s before the '90s"). I think some of the backlash against hair metal and other forms of '80s rock in the '90s was to put some of those types of influences back into music, and just to make it more stripped down.

For example, Nirvana covered a Leadbelly song, "Where Did You Sleep Last Night?", and it sounds almost like it could've been written by them.

You've heard Mark Lanegan's version of  that song? (also with Cobain)

Do you think Grunge was more a product or offshoot (I wouldn't go as far to say progency) of Hair Metal or Punk? To me, their sound is 'dirty' like punk, or some New Progressive British metal (think Judas Priest), but in aesthetic they have more akin to Punks and Garage rockers, with the emphasis on bringing music 'down to earth.' Pearl Jam were probably a more 'authentic' Grunge band than Nirvana (probably the most pop band), and this pop Grunge was what defined 90s rock, imo.

Do you think Grunge was more a product or offshoot (I wouldn't go as far to say progency) of Hair Metal or Punk? To me, their sound is 'dirty' like punk, or some New Progressive British metal (think Judas Priest), but in aesthetic they have more akin to Punks and Garage rockers, with the emphasis on bringing music 'down to earth.' Pearl Jam were probably a more 'authentic' Grunge band than Nirvana (probably the most pop band), and this pop Grunge was what defined 90s rock, imo.


Punk. I think grunge is basically a cross between New Progressive/Blues British Metal and punk rock.

Punk. I think grunge is basically a cross between New Progressive/Blues British Metal and punk rock.


Would you say the same about groups like the Pixies, the Germs and The Melvins which were pioneers of Grunge and the forebearers to better known groups like Nirvana or Soundgarden? They originated out of the 80s college 'Alternative rock' scene, but took the heavier sound of New Progressive Metal. So I'm still not 100% about how directly New wave metal fed into the grunge movement.

Would you say the same about groups like the Pixies, the Germs and The Melvins which were pioneers of Grunge and the forebearers to better known groups like Nirvana or Soundgarden? They originated out of the 80s college 'Alternative rock' scene, but took the heavier sound of New Progressive Metal. So I'm still not 100% about how directly New wave metal fed into the grunge movement.

Sorry to cut in like a jerk but isn't it a bit late there where you are? ;)

As for grunge I have the feeling you guys are overanalysing waaay too much,each "grunge group" has different influences and basta.

Sorry to cut in like a jerk but isn't it a bit late there where you are? ;)

As for grunge I have the feeling you guys are overanalysing waaay too much,each "grunge group" has different influences and basta.


Meh, it's what we do.  ;)

Meh, it's what we do.  ;)

Oh shucks,how could I forget! :D

Oh shucks,how could I forget! :D


Well in this case, you're the expert. True be told, I know jack about Grunge. LOL

Well in this case, you're the expert. True be told, I know jack about Grunge. LOL

Really?
It doesn't seem like it reading your posts...

Really?
It doesn't seem like it reading your posts...


Lol, well, I probably know more than the average person on the street. But compared to the real 'experts', I know very little...

Would you say the same about groups like the Pixies, the Germs and The Melvins which were pioneers of Grunge and the forebearers to better known groups like Nirvana or Soundgarden? They originated out of the 80s college 'Alternative rock' scene, but took the heavier sound of New Progressive Metal. So I'm still not 100% about how directly New wave metal fed into the grunge movement.


chaka is right in saying each grunge group had its own influences, more or less. Grunge spawned less soundalike bands in its first few years than say new wave, which led to a few generic new wave sounds by 1984 or so. Nirvana were punky, Soundgarden and AIC had more influences from progressive metal. The Smashing Pumpkins totally took punk influences out of the equation and made updated '70s rock.

IMO, the Pixies' sound was sort of a synthesis of punk, '70s-style power rock, and stuff like R.E.M. and the Replacements. Actually, I think grunge was the bridge between "noise rock" (Sonic Youth) and "college rock" (The Replacements, R.E.M.) It had the poppiness of the latter with the unabashed noise of the former.

chaka is right in saying each grunge group had its own influences, more or less. Grunge spawned less soundalike bands in its first few years than say new wave, which led to a few generic new wave sounds by 1984 or so. Nirvana were punky, Soundgarden and AIC had more influences from progressive metal. The Smashing Pumpkins totally took punk influences out of the equation and made updated '70s rock.

IMO, the Pixies' sound was sort of a synthesis of punk, '70s-style power rock, and stuff like R.E.M. and the Replacements. Actually, I think grunge was the bridge between "noise rock" (Sonic Youth) and "college rock" (The Replacements, R.E.M.) It had the poppiness of the latter with the unabashed noise of the former.


When you speak of Grunge, do you automatically think Nirvana, or maybe Pearl Jam? Cos the majority of true Grunge was never heard by the public - aside from the hits like 'Alive' and 'Jeremy' by Pearl Jam, 'Black Hole Sun' by Soundgarden.etc, most Grunge would not appeal to even Nirvana fans. That's why you didn't have to be a grunge fan to like Nirvana - hell, there were people who probably listened to Paula Abdul and Jason Priestly as well as Nirvana. But yeah, it's probably a more diverse genre than people give credit for, and my knowledge of Grunge is restricted to the few well known bands.

When you speak of Grunge, do you automatically think Nirvana, or maybe Pearl Jam? Cos the majority of true Grunge was never heard by the public - aside from the hits like 'Alive' and 'Jeremy' by Pearl Jam, 'Black Hole Sun' by Soundgarden.etc, most Grunge would not appeal to even Nirvana fans. That's why you didn't have to be a grunge fan to like Nirvana - hell, there were people who probably listened to Paula Abdul and Jason Priestly as well as Nirvana. But yeah, it's probably a more diverse genre than people give credit for, and my knowledge of Grunge is restricted to the few well known bands.

When I speak of grunge I think of Mudhoney.To me,their sound defines what "real grunge" is.
Their music has this dirty garage sound to it,like dirty guys who haven't washed for ages smoking fag after fag and drinking beer in the cellar.
Of course their latest stuff is much more diverse,for example their latest album has alot of trumpets and such..
I'd say the "real grunge" is long gone dead.

When you speak of Grunge, do you automatically think Nirvana, or maybe Pearl Jam? Cos the majority of true Grunge was never heard by the public - aside from the hits like 'Alive' and 'Jeremy' by Pearl Jam, 'Black Hole Sun' by Soundgarden.etc, most Grunge would not appeal to even Nirvana fans. That's why you didn't have to be a grunge fan to like Nirvana - hell, there were people who probably listened to Paula Abdul and Jason Priestly as well as Nirvana. But yeah, it's probably a more diverse genre than people give credit for, and my knowledge of Grunge is restricted to the few well known bands.


Hmm...Nirvana, but that's just because they're the grunge band that I like. They really combine other influences like pop-punk, college rock, and folk rock into the equation of grunge. Pearl Jam and Soundgarden were probably the more "typical highly, highly successful grunge bands" though. My mom likes Nirvana, actually...they have a much wider respect/appeal than a group like Mudhoney.

Hmm...Nirvana, but that's just because they're the grunge band that I like. They really combine other influences like pop-punk, college rock, and folk rock into the equation of grunge. Pearl Jam and Soundgarden were probably the more "typical highly, highly successful grunge bands" though. My mom likes Nirvana, actually...they have a much wider respect/appeal than a group like Mudhoney.



To me grunge isn't really that organized of a genre. It's seems more like a collection of groups who all happened to be from roughly the same area and sounded somewhat similar(unlike say Hair Metal where all the artists sounded exactly the same). To me Nirvana and Pearl Jam really dont sound that much alike. Same with say Soundgarden and AiC.

To me grunge isn't really that organized of a genre. It's seems more like a collection of groups who all happened to be from roughly the same area and sounded somewhat similar(unlike say Hair Metal where all the artists sounded exactly the same). To me Nirvana and Pearl Jam really dont sound that much alike. Same with say Soundgarden and AiC.


Yeah, I agree. It was a very loose sort of genre, unlike hair metal, which was basically a formula copied over and over again, which you either hated or loved. Grunge is different, there are people who like all grunge, but most people will have a preference for one group's style over another. As is alternative rock in general.

As for "soundalike genres", I would say new wave/synthpop is in the middle. Most true new wave groups are quite different, but later synthpop got somewhat derivative around 1982-1984 or so. People forget how many copycat synthpop groups and one-hit wonders there were. Alot of the post-grunge/'90s alternapop stuff sounds similar, but it's more of a general appeal thing. You can't totally dislike that stuff. Nu metal mostly sounds the same to me, with a few exceptions.

Yeah, I agree. It was a very loose sort of genre, unlike hair metal, which was basically a formula copied over and over again, which you either hated or loved. Grunge is different, there are people who like all grunge, but most people will have a preference for one group's style over another. As is alternative rock in general.

As for "soundalike genres", I would say new wave/synthpop is in the middle. Most true new wave groups are quite different, but later synthpop got somewhat derivative around 1982-1984 or so. People forget how many copycat synthpop groups and one-hit wonders there were. Alot of the post-grunge/'90s alternapop stuff sounds similar, but it's more of a general appeal thing. You can't totally dislike that stuff. Nu metal mostly sounds the same to me, with a few exceptions.



Yeah, I think that's one thing that's given grunge more staying power than say hair metal. Since none of the original groups really sounded that much alike, it couldn't be critisized the same way that hair metal was, that all the groups sounded the same, and there sound was repetitive.

And, yeah alot of the mid-'80s synthpop sounded quite similiar, as does Post-Grunge and Nu Metal as well.

Yeah, I think that's one thing that's given grunge more staying power than say hair metal. Since none of the original groups really sounded that much alike, it couldn't be critisized the same way that hair metal was, that all the groups sounded the same, and there sound was repetitive.

And, yeah alot of the mid-'80s synthpop sounded quite similiar, as does Post-Grunge and Nu Metal as well.


Also, both post-grunge and mid-'80s synthpop were dominated by one hit wonders. Some archetypical one hit wonders that came out of synth pop (in the US, anyway) were Men Without Hats, Naked Eyes, Simple Minds, A Flock of Seagulls, and Thomas Dolby. There were only a few synthpop acts who managed to escape this "one hit wonder" designation, quite honestly: Tears for Fears, Duran Duran, Culture Club, the Human League, ABC are a few examples. Post-grunge/'90s alternapop was also riddled with one hit wonders or two hit wonders: Supersonic, Marcy Playground (quite a talented group, but they never matched "Sex and Candy"), The Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Candlebox, The Cranberries, Lisa Loeb and Nine Stories, The Lemonheads, The Crash Test Dummies, Soho, Concrete Blonde, The Presidents of the United States of America, Elastica, 311, Tonic (the list goes on...)

Pearl Jam and Soundgarden were probably the more "typical highly, highly successful grunge bands" though.

Well where I live a lot of people have actually never heard of Pearl Jam or Soundgarden,grunge over here is straightaway connected with Nirvana.On the whole I think grunge wasn't that successful here in most European countries.

Well where I live a lot of people have actually never heard of Pearl Jam or Soundgarden,grunge over here is straightaway connected with Nirvana.On the whole I think grunge wasn't that successful here in most European countries.



That's the reason British and American cultures diverged in the early '90s, whereas there was alot of "give and take" in the '80s. Acid house, Britpop, twee pop, etc. were huge in Britain and grunge, alt rock, rap, ballads, and corny dance-pop were big in the US.

That's the reason British and American cultures diverged in the early '90s, whereas there was alot of "give and take" in the '80s. Acid house, Britpop, twee pop, etc. were huge in Britain and grunge, alt rock, rap, ballads, and corny dance-pop were big in the US.


Yeah, the dance/house/rave scene was big in the U.K. in the early 90s - as well as the forerunners of Britpop such as the Stone Roses, Manic Street Preachers, Charlatans, Inspiral Carpets - these groups would diverge into straight pop like Blur, Oasis (so-called 'Brit-pop'), dance/crossover like the Prodigy, and the more metallish sound of groups like Hell is For Heroes or the Black Rebel Motorcycle Club. The U.S. scene was of course more sanitised, and in some ways didn't really shake off the smultzy ballads and overblowness of the late 80s barring grunge.

Yeah, the dance/house/rave scene was big in the U.K. in the early 90s - as well as the forerunners of Britpop such as the Stone Roses, Manic Street Preachers, Charlatans, Inspiral Carpets - these groups would diverge into straight pop like Blur, Oasis (so-called 'Brit-pop'), dance/crossover like the Prodigy, and the more metallish sound of groups like Hell is For Heroes or the Black Rebel Motorcycle Club. The U.S. scene was of course more sanitised, and in some ways didn't really shake off the smultzy ballads and overblowness of the late 80s barring grunge.


I actually argue the whole "schmaltzy, overblown A/C ballad" thing was more of a '90s. Every era has its own breed of cheesiness and its own breed of non-cheesiness. Also, '60s nostalgia hit bigger in Britain than the U.S. because they didn't experience the summer of love to the same degree, so they saw the rise in ecstasy consumption with the British Summer of Love in 1988, and the subsequent rise of britpop and dance music.

I actually argue the whole "schmaltzy, overblown A/C ballad" thing was more of a '90s. Every era has its own breed of cheesiness and its own breed of non-cheesiness. Also, '60s nostalgia hit bigger in Britain than the U.S. because they didn't experience the summer of love to the same degree, so they saw the rise in ecstasy consumption with the British Summer of Love in 1988, and the subsequent rise of britpop and dance music.


The U.K. did actually have a very vibrant psychedelic scene in the late 60s - centered around 'Swingin' London', with a bevy of psychedelic bands led by Pink Floyd, which included early incarnations of King Crimson, Cream, The Jimi Hendrix Experience (which really started off in the UK), World of Oz, the Small Faces.etc. But that's another topic.

Yes, the early House scene was sort of an echo of psychedelia and the 'Summer of Love' - people wore colourful shirts, and new age philosophies/ambient new age music saw a revival after many years. The early 90s were probably also the period when the rock/dance converge reached a peak in Britain, before declining (when Rock/electro type groups like Radiohead came on the scene).