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Subject: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
If he didn't blow his brains out, do you think he would be constantly made out to be this mystical guru type person? I'm sick of how Cobain is always forced on us as being a tragic rock musician, like some '90's version of Jim Morrison or John Lennon.
The guy was a mental case that took his own life, and he's not in the league of Morrison, Lennon, Hendrix or other "tragic" figures from the '60's. If he didn't blow his brains out, there would be no Cobain mystique, and Nirvana would have faded away from the scene the same way Eddie Vedder and Pearl Jam did.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Excuse me? Pearl Jam is still at the top of there game. The albums don't sell as much but still in the millions and there shows are sold out well in advance. Pearl Jam is the greatest band of all time. Nirvana was good, Kurt was a talented messed up man, got a guru for sure but one that allowed himself to be swallowed by pain and anziety. To bad. I was a fan and live in Seattle, I wasn't surprised when I heard the news cause a few months earlier Nirvana had been written up in Rolling Stone and they spoke of his hospitalization after 'accidently" od'ing on pain medication and some champagne, I read throug that BS story pretty easy. It was huge deal here, crisis conselors meeting with kids, huge public mememorial at Seattle Center with Courtney pleading for kids not to do the same. It was sick, admire but do not emulate is my motto.
Quoting:
If he didn't blow his brains out, do you think he would be constantly made out to be this mystical guru type person? I'm sick of how Cobain is always forced on us as being a tragic rock musician, like some '90's version of Jim Morrison or John Lennon.
The guy was a mental case that took his own life, and he's not in the league of Morrison, Lennon, Hendrix or other "tragic" figures from the '60's. If he didn't blow his brains out, there would be no Cobain mystique, and Nirvana would have faded away from the scene the same way Eddie Vedder and Pearl Jam did.
End Quote
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
I agree that if Kurt Cobain had lived, he wouldn't be as loved today, but not in the way you mean. The only he could have survived would be to get off the drugs, and most musicians that were good while on drugs are crap once they kick the habit. You may not like the Cobain as Jim Morrison mystique, but it sure as hell beats Cobain as James Taylor.
He is a tragic rock figure, whether or not you think he's in the league with the greats from the 60's. And like it or not, the mystique is as important as the music.
Quoting:The guy was a mental caseEnd Quote
And Morrison wasn't?
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
I have no respect for Rock tragedies, just pitty.
And that goes for all of them who were self destructive.
I do recognize the ones who had true talent, but then threw it away and (In My Opinion) Cobain wasn't one of them.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
http://encyklopedia.nuta.pl/pic/obr/26.gif
Whenever people talk about rock tragedies I think of the untimely death of Buddy Holley. Few people speak about him when they talk about Janis and Jimi and now Kurt, but I think he would have been bigger, and more influential, than the lot of them put together. Lord, the guy had a string of hits and was producing quality tunes. He died when he was twenty-three. For my money his was the biggest loss of all.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
I heard this somewhere and I wholeheartedly agree: You keep Buddy Holly from dying on that plane crash, you completely change rock history.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
I have no respect for Rock tragedies, just pitty.
And that goes for all of them who were self destructive.
I do recognize the ones who had true talent, but then threw it away and (In My Opinion) Cobain wasn't one of them.
End Quote
A-f*ckin-men!
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Untimely death, although horrible is something that is definitely romanticised within the media.
Kurt Cobain was talented, he wrote some great songs, but I always saw him as somewhat of a hypocrite.
To go off on a tangent here about Cobain's hypocrises, he was once on the cover of Rolling Stone with Nirvana, and he was wearing a shirt with "Corporate America Sucks" emblazoned across it. Corporate America, whether it sucks or not, was feeding Kurt Cobain, and he wasn't turning it away. So he is saying to the youth "here I am, all real and rebellious" yet he was getting the treatment from the corporations of America. I have no problem with him saying that the corporations are bad, because frankly, I agree with that, but he is saying this, yet not turning away from corporate America when it calls him with all its material perks.
Back to the original topic - I definitely think that if Cobain ahdn't killed himself he would have slowly faded from the spotlight, but in dong that, I think he and/or Nirvana would have made their best music.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
He was in a contract; he likely couldn't turn away. He did do his best to make his second major album as abrasive as possible to try and distance himself from the mainstream (and in doing so, he made a fairly crap album, but that's just my opinion).
By the way, his shirt didn't say "Corporate America Sucks." It said "Corporate Magazines Still Suck." It was his way of responding to being interviewed by publications he'd never read.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
He was in a contract; he likely couldn't turn away. He did do his best to make his second major album as abrasive as possible to try and distance himself from the mainstream (and in doing so, he made a fairly crap album, but that's just my opinion).
End Quote
um.. you mean forth right? Bleach, Nevermind, Insecticide, and then In Utereo, Unplugged and the post-humous By the Banks of the Muddy Wiskah.. and I guess the new "greatest hits" album, which if Kurt was alive, would have detested..
the night he finally succeded in killing himself, I caught clips on all three networks, and all three had a different total number of albums.. 3, 4 and 5.. (5 was the correct answer at the time).. if you count just studio albums, then it was three.. if you discount Incesticide as a b-sides compilation, I guess you can call it four albums.. and of course we're discounting EPs
when Nirvana recorded Nevermind, and Butch Vig gave it that "polished" distorted sound, he basically opened a can of worms Cobain never expected.. I bought the album when it first came out, and never thought it was going to be as huge as it was. I doubt any of the people involved did either.
As to wether they'd be considered in the same light.. I doubt he would be looked upon as fondly, but they certainly would have been remembered for Nevermind.. that album when it first came out, sounded like nothing else I was listening to at the time.. had the record companies not rushed to promote groups like Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, etc. it probably would have still sounded unique, instead of watered down and overexposed.
Cobain despised Pearl Jam from some of his journal entries I've read.. I have to say, I've never been a huge fan of theirs either.. it's not their fault, I blame the record companies for pushing them after Nirvana made it...
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Certainly 'Nevermind' wasn't expected to sell 11 million copies. The record label thought it would only sell 50,000 or so. Part of the reason it became such a massive hit was, as Chucky said, it sounded like nothing else at the time. Whether it was a work of genius or not, 'Nevermind' broke the mould of bland, uninspired rock music that was littering the airwaves at the time thanks to fat, burned-out 80s "stars" making crap, self-indulgent albums and becoming bad parodies of themselves. Something had to shake up the industry, and 'Nevermind' just happened to be the thing that did it. It could have been any band's album, it just happened to be Nirvana's.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Nevermind was a good album that did shake up the music industry, rah rah rah. But something I never hear around these parts that I totally believe is that Shake Your Money Maker by the Black Crowes was an album that shook things up, brought out a new sound, and generally rocked.
I never really hear the Crowes talked about round here, is that because they haven't had that much mainstream acceptance since SYMM and Southern Harmony? I think the Black Crowes are the musical equivalent (IMO better actually, but anyway) of Nirvana, Pearl Jam, anyone else who came in on the grunge movement. The Crowes were bringing a different sound, a different attitude, and being real and true to themselves and their fans. I am a huge fan of the Crowes, as you can probably tell, but I think they are one of the most underrated bands of the 90s. Southern Harmony, Amorica, and parts of Three Snakes and One Charm are IMO musically and lyrically brilliant.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
The Black Crowes are amazing; a truly great band. But they didn't sell 11 million copies of their album and turn the rock music industry on its head. If they had, then it might have been Chris Robinson's face on the t-shirts of 13 year old slackers.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
I don't wish anything on the dead....or the sick headed, but his 15 minutes was just about up, and this was one way of keeping himself alive in the rock and roll history books. There are ways to treat any illness you have, and I won't think "higher" of him for killing himself to kill his "demons"
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
I don't like all the hoo-ha about how wonderful he was, because he wasn't I don't think.
Sorry. I'm sorry he went, the last person to write here said he shouldn't have done it in that way, I agree.
Too many people are over-idolized when they leave, and Kurt C fits that category
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
The Black Crowes are a good band. A very good band, in fact. But completely different from what came before them they were NOT. They were always a traditional retro-rock band, and most of what they play is trying to emulate the Stones, the Faces, Aerosmith or Lynyrd Skynyrd. The grunge movement was something NEW.
And when I said second major album, I meant second major-label album, Chucky.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
The Black Crowes are a good band. A very good band, in fact. But completely different from what came before them they were NOT. They were always a traditional retro-rock band, and most of what they play is trying to emulate the Stones, the Faces, Aerosmith or Lynyrd Skynyrd. End Quote
True, and their style is geared toward older, more sophisticated rock audiences, not the kazillion 16-and-unders who buy the most records and turn people into idols.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:The Black Crowes are a good band. A very good band, in fact. But completely different from what came before them they were NOT. They were always a traditional retro-rock band, and most of what they play is trying to emulate the Stones, the Faces, Aerosmith or Lynyrd Skynyrd. The grunge movement was something NEW.
End Quote
I would not say they were trying to emulate the Stones, Faces etc., because some of their work IMO totally surpasses the work of the other groups mentioned. They did have something new to offer because no one at that time was playing that style of music, but they played the music they wanted to play.
Quoting:True, and their style is geared toward older, more sophisticated rock audiences, not the kazillion 16-and-unders who buy the most records and turn people into idols.End Quote
I'm thinking thats a good thing, are we on the same wavelength here?
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
I can´t stand him neither his "mystique".
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Kurt Cobain wrote some great songs. IMO, he did have a lot of talent and Nevermind was a brilliant album. The kind of music that was played on the radio changed dramatically in a very short amount of time due to the popularity of "Smells Like Teen Spirit". I, for one, was very happy about that. The music had turned stale as the 80s hair bands were on their way out the door by 1991. I admit, it took me awhile to like In Utero. Cobain had said that he wanted to make that album less "mainstream" anyways. Now, I listen to In Utero quite often.
I have to comment that I was kind of suprised by some of the responses here. I wouldn't expect everyone to think Nirvana was a great band, everyone has different tastes in music. My point is though, whether someone liked Cobain or not, he will always have that "mystique" surrounding him because of the way he helped change the direction in music(knowingly or unknowingly at the time) and because he died at such a young age.
As far as Nirvana fading away, by any indications, their drummer seemed to make a pretty good career for himself.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
He was a junkie.............I have no respect for junkies......They are a waste of space...........
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
He was a junkie.............I have no respect for junkies......They are a waste of space...........
End Quote
He was a junkie. By the same token that "waste of space" had a huge impact on people musically. That and the fact that he died while at the peak of his stardom is precisely why their is a "mystique" about him.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
He was a junkie.............I have no respect for junkies......They are a waste of space...........
End Quote
Awfully judgmental. Kurt Cobain did do everything he could to destroy himself, granted, but he also left a lasting legacy. He wasted much of his life but not all of it.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
I'm thinking thats a good thing, are we on the same wavelength here?
End Quote
Yes.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
He was a junkie. By the same token that "waste of space" had a huge impact on people musically. That and the fact that he died while at the peak of his stardom is precisely why their is a "mystique" about him.
End Quote
The dude had a huge impact on music that much is for sure. But to say he has a mystique because he died at the peak of his career is bullsh!t.....the dude couldn't handle fame, was addicted to heroin and killed himself. Where's the mystique? He was a loser.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
The dude had a huge impact on music that much is for sure. But to say he has a mystique because he died at the peak of his career is bullsh!t.....the dude couldn't handle fame, was addicted to heroin and killed himself. Where's the mystique? He was a loser.
End Quote
To just label him a "loser" is too easy.
I would think it's safe to say that there's more interest him now and will be in the future because he died young and when his band had just became popular. This as opposed to playing state fairs and casinos later in life when his music wasn't popular at all anymore. Our culture, sensationalizes and glorifies "the live fast, die young" mentality. Like it or not.
That's where the mystique is.
If you think it's bullsh!t, then that's your opinion. I don't agree with you on it. Maybe you just didn't like Nirvana, I don't know.
Personally, I was tired of hearing over-produced power ballads in 1991. Yawn.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
'Overproduced power ballads'. Couldn't have said it better myself!
While it is true that the DGC label did not expect "Nevermind" to sell 11 million copies worldwide, I was programming an active rock station at the time & can tell you that my record rep did hattricks and gave me everything under the sun to just add the song. But it sold on its merit thereafter.
Now, let's consider the phrase "untimely death". For most people, death is not planned, so of course it is untimely. For Mr. Cobain, it was planned so the only people who considered it untimely were the people who put the "fan" in fanatic. In any case, I do not believe that Mr. Cobain intended to make himself an icon or a martyr, you can thank the greedy, sociopathic Mrs. Cobain for that.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
To just label him a "loser" is too easy.
I would think it's safe to say that there's more interest him now and will be in the future because he died young and when his band had just became popular. This as opposed to playing state fairs and casinos later in life when his music wasn't popular at all anymore. Our culture, sensationalizes and glorifies "the live fast, die young" mentality. Like it or not.
That's where the mystique is.
If you think it's bullsh!t, then that's your opinion. I don't agree with you on it. Maybe you just didn't like Nirvana, I don't know.
Personally, I was tired of hearing over-produced power ballads in 1991. Yawn.
End Quote
I loved Nirvana. They were refreshing and new and just what the music industry needed. But I don't think there is a "mystique" about the live fast, die young mentality. What's the mystique? It's a bad choice of words. There's a draw to it in our society for sure. People want to live it themselves. It's not a mystique. It's more of a longing. A desire if you will.
You keep saying Kurt "died young". Like it was an accident. That's where the bullsh!t is. He did it to himself and has no one to blame but himself. I'm sorry, but anyone who has it all and kills themself, leaving a baby and a single mother is a loser. It's highly self-centered. Agree with me or not. That's my opinion.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
I loved Nirvana. They were refreshing and new and just what the music industry needed. But I don't think there is a "mystique" about the live fast, die young mentality. What's the mystique? It's a bad choice of words. There's a draw to it in our society for sure. People want to live it themselves. It's not a mystique. It's more of a longing. A desire if you will.
You keep saying Kurt "died young". Like it was an accident. That's where the bullsh!t is. He did it to himself and has no one to blame but himself. I'm sorry, but anyone who has it all and kills themself, leaving a baby and a single mother is a loser. It's highly self-centered. Agree with me or not. That's my opinion.
End Quote
Points well taken, but I guess we'll agree to disagree then...
I look at it from a musical aspect, not his character traits. That's the difference. Rock stars certainly aren't role models, nor did I ever look there to find one.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
If he didn't blow his brains out, do you think he would be constantly made out to be this mystical guru type person? I'm sick of how Cobain is always forced on us as being a tragic rock musician, like some '90's version of Jim Morrison or John Lennon.
The guy was a mental case that took his own life, and he's not in the league of Morrison, Lennon, Hendrix or other "tragic" figures from the '60's. If he didn't blow his brains out, there would be no Cobain mystique, and Nirvana would have faded away from the scene the same way Eddie Vedder and Pearl Jam did.
End Quote
Kurt cobain was and still is my idol!! i dont belive it was suicide! w
and if you think im lieing i have the evidence to proove it!
1. kurt and Courtney were supposed 2 be going 2 the divorce courts! it was during this period that courtney claimed that kurt was suicidal! but still the police took all weapons out of kurts hme and kurts frien styaed with him! courtney was the only person who claimed kurt was suicidal!
2. its a bit of a coincidence that kurt died when he was about to wirte courteny out his will!
3. whe courtney sent a private detective to search kurts house she did not tell them that there was a green house (room kurt died in)
thats just some of the evidence!
theres a whole lot more if you dont belive me!
go to www.justiceforkurt.com it even explains the rome incident!
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Kurt killed himself.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Deal with it.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
Deal with it.
End Quote
Yes, I knew there was something I forgot to add. ;D
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
Kurt killed himself.
End Quote
dead men dont pull triggers!!
and as for the rome inccident?? well according to his band mates kurt never drank alcohol!!
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Quoting:
.....the dude couldn't handle fame, was addicted to heroin and killed himself. Where's the mystique? He was a loser.
End Quote
Kind of reminds me of Marilyn Monroe, except she became a "Legend". :-/
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
well if you are so convinced it was suicide then answer theses questions!
1. when she was reporting Kurt missing over the phone yto the police why did courtney love pretend to be kurts mother?
2. why idnt courtney tell the police that she knew that kurt had been seen out side his house?
3. how come kurts suicide note was courtneys hand writing at the end of it?
4. how could he have done the shot him self if doctors who examoned him said that there was enough drugs (no not heroin!!) in him to kill him beofre he had the chance to pull a trigger?
there i could add more if you want!! but just try and answer those questions if u r so sure!!
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
No offense, but I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind here. I didn't.
Interesting conspiracy theories though...
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
If I remeber it correctly Courtney was touring in Europe at the time and it was a meter reader or somethone like that who spotted the body. I was in Seattle at the time and it got a lot of press here. Also, it's very easy to pull a trigger, just a couple of lbs of squeezing usually does it, not much mobilty or dexterity needed.
Kurt Cobain was brilliant, but like so many others that shared his type of mentality he was a sick and troubled man. I appreciated his music but I was not surprised to hear of his demise or the method he used to reach it. Courtney is no angel but she did not kill him.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Here is a little info on P.I. Tom Grant. (Nickleback Girl, take notes)
15 Points to Ponder about Mr Grant.
1. He was in law enforcement, and knew about criminal investigations.
2. He might not be willing to give up his 15 minutes of fame, so why not kill Kurt and extend his allotted time for fame
3. He had seems to have knowledge of forensic procedures.
4. He knew of many of Kurts movements in his final days
5. He knows that lie detectors can be fooled. So why not have dupes take the test pass it? Of course they give his version of the story. Could be handy in building his alibi.
6. He seems to have evidence of a murder, or thinks he has. Who was talking about murder after Kurts Death?
7. He was a member of the secret fraternity known as the "thin blue line" and might have friends on the "force" who help him cover up his murder.
8. He knows Courtney would be the perfect scape goat.
9. In order for his conspiracy theory to work MS Love would have to control numerous police agencies, to include the FBI,most probably, since this is an interstate crime, this falls under their jurisdiction. Could Courtney do it, Nope, but maybe an Ex cop might.
10. Can Mr Grant positively account for every minute of the day Kurt Died? From independent sources? If he can that would be extremely unusual, why would he? Unless he knew he might have to.
11. Mr Grant seems to hold Ms. Love in contempt, what better way to teach an uppity feminist a lesson than set her up for murder?
12. He was in law enforcement, and many in law enforcement did not like Mr Cobain or Ms. Love
13. Mr Cobain was out spoken and extremely controversial, many people hated Kurt as much they did Courtney. How can he be sure it wasn't a setup to get both of them? unless he was the one doing the setting up?
14. Being in law enforcement and investigations he would also know of people who would kill and keep quite if the price was right.
15 . What better way to control the course of the investigation? Than to take the lead in it?
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
Hey, didn't Cobain blow the back of his head off with a shotgun? Or was it his chest? I just know it was a shotgun...
I never really listened to Nirvana though, I just heard about it back in 90-whatever because the media was going nuts about it.
Subject: Re: The Kurt Cobain Mystique
"Young as you are/Can't you see/That that's no way to be/Kurt is dead/That's the end/And there's no remedy." - From "Young As You Are" by Apologetix.