Hi. First, let me say that I am 26 years old (born in the fall of 1987), so I don't really have any meaningful memories of the 80's. However, as someone very interested in gothic subculture and as a lover of much of the music associated with it from its beginnings to today, I want to ask some questions about the first decade of the goth scene (I know that there were hints of it in the late 70's, but it seems to me that the 80's was when it really crystalized).

1) When would you say that there first was a distinct identity around the goth scene? For example, many bands that are considered gothic (such as the Cure) do not consider themselves such, so it seems to me that a group of people with similar interests and a taste for dark aesthetics adopted certain groups as their own and formed a subculture in that way, is that true?

2) Nowadays, the goth scene and the industrial scene have become rather amalgamated. Had this already occurred in the 80's? One Seattle eldergoth acquaintance of mine (who is I believe 47 years old now) told me that already by the mid-80's, the same sorts of people who would listen to a group like Alien Sex Fiend or Sisters of Mercy would also listen to music like Skinny Puppy. Does this seem to ring true?

3) I've noticed that very few 80's movies show goths in them. Why is that? Were they so underground that it was possible to never see one? Or were they considered irrelevant to their target audience? If there are some exceptions, let me know, I'd like to see them (I know that one of the Friday the 13th movies features a goth girl).

4) Are there any groups that were considered goth then that would not be considered goth now? Likewise, are there any groups that were not considered goth then that would be considered goth now? I ask because I've noticed that, in Seattle at least, many goth clubs have nights (seemingly targeted toward eldergoth types based on the imagery used on the ads) where they play 80's music that seems like it might have been a little bit too mainstream for goths looking for something different at that time, like Erasure. Am I stereotyping goths from that period as more anti-mainstream than they really were? Or were they really like that, but now, with the passage of time and the onset of nostalgia, appreciate music that wouldn't have been their cup of tea at that time?

Well, I think those are all my questions for now. If you have anything to share about that period (from any country too), please do, even if it doesn't directly address my questions. I've long been curious about how it was and any insight is welcome!

Wow!  That's a lot to answer, but I'll try to give my opinion ...

Questions 1 & 4)I didn't really hear the term "Goth" until the very late 80's 90.  I think what you say is true about like-minded dark souls forming a sub-genre of "punk" and maybe some "new wave". 

Siouxsie & The Banshees were labeled "punk" initially, but are probably thought to be "goth" today (and I would agree since I feel they were born "of" the punk scene but not typical of it.
I think of Joy Division and Echo & The Bunny Men type bands as "goth".  I'm surprised to hear that the Cure is now considered "Goth".  We always labeled them "New Wave" until they played them on the radio, and then they were mainstream (like everything else).  (Don't even start me on the term "New Wave", that's a whooooole other thread  ;D)  Anyway, Erasure were not considered goth either (all that dancey synthesizer...)  Not sure why they lump them in there; probably to appeal to a wider audience as well as pull on some nostalgia string, as you suggest. 

2) Yes.

3) I don't remember any "goth" in 80's movies at all.  I think by the time the scene was big enough to be portrayed in anything mainstream would have been the 90's.  (I cannot give you any examples of this, as I'm not really a movie buff and nothing is presently springing to mind).

Hope that helps a bit  :)

2) Nowadays, the goth scene and the industrial scene have become rather amalgamated. Had this already occurred in the 80's? One Seattle eldergoth acquaintance of mine (who is I believe 47 years old now) told me that already by the mid-80's, the same sorts of people who would listen to a group like Alien Sex Fiend or Sisters of Mercy would also listen to music like Skinny Puppy. Does this seem to ring true?


Seconded.  The overlap wasn't 100%, but it was pretty solid.  You wouldn't get anybody "in" either the industrial/goth scene objecting to "the other" genre.  Robots and cruise missiles, vampires or depression, keyboards or guitars, it's all good.  As long as nobody falls in love except to regret it by the end of the song :)

Never thought about its lack of visibility in the movies, and looking back, I think I'm with ladybug316 on that one.  I wound up on the industrial side of the spectrum by way of computer geekery, and we rivetheads were mostly invisible.  As for the folks who came from the goth side of the spectrum, we had maybe half a dozen people out of around 1000 who were recognizable as "goth" by their appearance.  They weren't quite as stereotypical as the stereotypical goths on South Park, but they were pretty close:  they stuck to themselves, didn't cause trouble, didn't seek trouble, but were perfectly decent people if you got to know them.  This would have been around the mid-80s, and yeah, it was a really small subculture.  A lot more of us listened to (or were influenced by) the music than identified with the subculture.

Hi guys, thanks for the responses. They are enlightening and at the same time seem to confirm what I had imagined. I've heard that the term goth was applied later on and that people we would now call goths referred to themselves as batcavers or something like that, is that true? Another term that I understand to have undergone a change is 'darkwave.' Now, it seems to refer to a genre that was moody and synth-laden but not aggressive enough to be industrial or EBM that began in the 80s and was played by the likes of Clan of Xymox. However, I understand that originally it was used to simply refer to slightly darker new wave like the Cure.

Yes, that is true of "Darkwave".  The Cure would certainly have been a big part of that scene, rather than Goth.

Interesting! I've also heard that some goths in the 80's called themselves death-rockers. Now, that seems to refer to a specific subset of goths who listen to death rock, a rather lo-fi punk-like variety of goth rock played by the likes of Christian Death or 45 Grave. Was it once broader?

Also, what about 'batcaver'? Obviously it derives from the Batcave Club in England in the early 80s. Did the term have currency in describing the members of that subculture who never went to that club (or who weren't British)?

Interesting! I've also heard that some goths in the 80's called themselves death-rockers. Now, that seems to refer to a specific subset of goths who listen to death rock, a rather lo-fi punk-like variety of goth rock played by the likes of Christian Death or 45 Grave. Was it once broader?

Also, what about 'batcaver'? Obviously it derives from the Batcave Club in England in the early 80s. Did the term have currency in describing the members of that subculture who never went to that club (or who weren't British)?


I've never heard the term "death rocker" to describe what would eventually turn into the "goth scene" and as for "batcaver", I've never heard that term at all.

I've never heard the term "death rocker" to describe what would eventually turn into the "goth scene" and as for "batcaver", I've never heard that term at all.


Ah, ok. So for the first few years of the subculture, it didn't have a name at all, or at least in your part of the world?

On question (1), I used to go to "City Club" in Detroit from 87-91.  On any night during that time you'd hear:

Ministry
Front 242
Nitzer Ebb
Alien Sex Fiend
Bauhaus
(Clan of) Xymox
Depeche Mode
Fugazi
Sisters of Mercy
Skinny Puppy
Siouxie and the Banshees
Nine Inch Nails
The Cure
Front Line Assembly
Laibach
etc...

Great time to be 17-21 or so.

Ah, ok. So for the first few years of the subculture, it didn't have a name at all, or at least in your part of the world?


Yes, I would say that's correct.

On question (1), I used to go to "City Club" in Detroit from 87-91.  On any night during that time you'd hear:

Ministry
Front 242
Nitzer Ebb
Alien Sex Fiend
Bauhaus
(Clan of) Xymox
Depeche Mode
Fugazi
Sisters of Mercy
Skinny Puppy
Siouxie and the Banshees
Nine Inch Nails
The Cure
Front Line Assembly
Laibach
etc...

Great time to be 17-21 or so.


Great music! Sounds like my kind of place. Early synthpop Ministry or industrial Ministry?

Your answer also quite vividly confirms what I suspected in my second question, with industrial and goth rock freely mixed in the playlist of the club.

They typically didn't touch "With Sympathy" but played the hell out of "Twitch", "Land of Rape and Honey" and "The Mind is a Terrible thing to Taste".  "Everyday is Halloween" was in heavy rotation with all of the DJ's.

Ah ok, interesting to know! Oingo_fan, if you don't mind me asking, why did you stop going to clubs like that?

Graduated college, started a career with a Fortune 10 company and started taking life too seriously.  In retrospect I wish I kept going there longer than I did (I can still smell the clove cigarettes in my mind  :) ).  Still listening to this music at 44...

Why did the 80's have a goth scene or was that the way the kids back then wanted to act?  ???

Howard, could you clarify your question a little bit?

Howard, could you clarify your question a little bit?


I'm saying why did the kids act goth at that time? ???

Ah, good question. I can't really answer it since I was too young to have any meaningful memories of the 80's, but I hope that one of our fellow posters who lived the scene during that time can give you an answer.

For the same reason every generation creates its' own subculture, Howard.  Some people are not drawn to the ordinary,  mainstream things.