Something I realized not too long ago, which I'd never thought about before, is how it was only after the Thriller singles started topping the charts, that new wave also followed suit. It had some scattered hits as well as underground success from 1979 to mid 1982. However when "Billie Jean" became a hit in early 1983, it seems like the gates were opened for Duran Duran, Culture Club, The Police and Cyndi Lauper to become mainstream artists regularly hitting #1.

This is ironic because Michael is really more of a disco/R&B artist at heart, with '80s elements thrown in. Maybe the fact that he was the first true video superstar had something to do with this too?

I never associated any correlation between Michael Jackson's popularity, to the rise in new wave music. Maybe it was just a coincidence...I just don't see the two as being anything similar. ???

I Gotta agree with Quirk, Jacko had nothing to do with New Wave's rise, he was kind of the last gasp from the original Motown generation. I would credit New Wave's popularity to bands like The Police, Talking Heads & Duran Duran. Although some of them started out as Punk acts, when that genre didn't ascend to dominance, they diversified by mixing in early Electronica to create early New Wave, while others that didn't begin in Punk took the electronic sound and made it their own, bringing New Wave to the forefront. Any thoughts?

Your Pal,
Doc
8)

Sorry, the term New Wave was coined to bands like Devo, B-52's, The Police and the like.
Bands that were around long before Thriller was released. I don't think most would classify bands like Duran Duran, Cyndi Lauper or Culture Club as New Wave either.

M Jackson and New Wave don't really have anything in common. 

If fact, just the opposite, most of the generation of bands that were originators of "New Wave" (circa 1979) were already on their way out by 1983.

I agree with the Doctor they call Brown.  I believe the timing of Thriller and the rise of New Wave is coincidental.  I think that soft commercialized Punk/Alternative evolved into New Wave using synthesizers.  In the early 80's, we were tired of disco and punk.  The synthesizer added a new sound and was very versatile.  Acts such as The Cars, Talking Heads, Japan, Duran Duran, and Flock of Seagulls helped push this along.

Personally, I think that the success of Thriller was VITAL to the Hip Hop explosion more than the New Wave explosion.  Thriller brought dancing and urban-style (though on a clean commercialized level) to the entire world.  I believe the success of Thriller made Hip Hop and breakdancing accessible to everyone.  I think the success of Thriller enabled urban acts such as Run DMC and LL Cool J to succeed so Hip Hop flourished.  Of course now Hip-Hop is horrible because the beat is more important than the lyrics - or lack there of (money bling cars).  It needs to be revitalized but thats a whole other subject and whole other decade.  Hip Hop is dead.  

I agree with the Doctor they call Brown.  I believe the timing of Thriller and the rise of New Wave is coincidental.  I think that soft commercialized Punk/Alternative evolved into New Wave using synthesizers.  In the early 80's, we were tired of disco and punk.  The synthesizer added a new sound  ???and was very versatile.  Acts such as The Cars, Talking Heads, Japan, Duran Duran, and Flock of Seagulls helped push this along.

Personally, I think that the success of Thriller was VITAL to the Hip Hop explosion more than the New Wave explosion.  Thriller brought dancing and urban-style (though on a clean commercialized level) to the entire world.  I believe the success of Thriller made Hip Hop and breakdancing accessible to everyone.  I think the success of Thriller enabled urban acts such as Run DMC and LL Cool J to succeed so Hip Hop flourished.  Of course now Hip-Hop is horrible because the beat is more important than the lyrics - or lack there of (money bling cars).  It needs to be revitalized but thats a whole other subject and whole other decade.  Hip Hop is dead. 


???I think there is a fundamental issue in identifying what "New Wave" was or is.

I also disagree that Run DMC or LL Cool J was enabled by M Jackson.
Run DMC or LL Cool J and M Jackson were definitely on differently paths, working different music goals. The term "Hip Hop" was not really in use at the time ('83)...there was no Hip Hop, or "urban" acts so to speak. There was R&B, soul or rap, thats it.

Now if you're saying the MTV age of M. Jackson, the videos and acceptance of mainstream rap, helped black artists get noticed, well yes.

I'm really at a loss here, can't really see any association between M Jackson, New Wave and Hip Hop.

New Wave evolved out of punk music in the late 70s, and I don't think Wacko Jacko was a punk musician.  He was the king of Pop

Saying Michael Jackson is New Wave is like saying Kenny G kickstarted the Grunge movement ;D

I could see him as Hip Hop though.  Last I heard, Ben be cheatin' on Billie Jean, and homie don't do that.  She not coo' wit dat she-yot, so she gon' pop a cap in da playa's azz :D

Seems like I'm in the minority on the consensus. ;D

Interesting discussion though. I do think, while he wasn't really a hip hop artist (even by '80s standards), he was an influence on that genre. "Beat It" had kind of a street theme with its depiction of rival gangs, and the video played this out too. I've heard people say it was kind of a gangsta rap influence and I would agree.

Maybe when I said new wave I should've specified synthpop instead. That's what "Do You Really Want To Hurt Me", "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" and "Every Breath You Take" are (well, The Police are unclassifyable really, since they have so many influences). It does seem that after his songs got big, the rest of the '80s sounds that had been under the surface finally came out in full force.

Michael Jacksons influence can be seen where the choreography is just as important as the music.  His sister Janet, Britney, New Kids, Backstreet Boys, and even Madonna was highly influenced by Thriller, and rode in its wake.

Some of what we have become used to calling 'New Wave' is actually just pop. The Culture Club, as big a fan as I am, is not New Wave. Echo and the Bunnymen and other 'post punk' groups are.

Seems like I'm in the minority on the consensus. ;D

Interesting discussion though. I do think, while he wasn't really a hip hop artist (even by '80s standards), he was an influence on that genre. "Beat It" had kind of a street theme with its depiction of rival gangs, and the video played this out too. I've heard people say it was kind of a gangsta rap influence and I would agree.

Maybe when I said new wave I should've specified synthpop instead. That's what "Do You Really Want To Hurt Me", "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" and "Every Breath You Take" are (well, The Police are unclassifyable really, since they have so many influences). It does seem that after his songs got big, the rest of the '80s sounds that had been under the surface finally came out in full force.


One of the great things about music is that each person can see it for what they want, but for me and usually when I'm thinking of synthpop/electronic music of the 80's bands/influences such as kRAFTWERK, Gary Neuman, Brain Eno etc, come to mind.

For me, it’s difficult to say "Do You Really Want to Hurt Me" is "Synthpop". The more obvious overtones in this track are unquestionably reggae or rock steady, not synthpop. Although other Culture Club songs do have some synthpop overtones. This song is a poor example of a synthpop-influenced tune, and difficult to draw a direct line of influence from this Jamaican flavored song to Michael Jackson’s "Thriller" album.

"Every Breath You Take" is a pop/ballad (love ballad for a stalker?). Kind of a puzzling choice as there are obvious piano, strings, bass and drums here, with very little if any synthesizer use in this track (if at all). Moreover this song is known for its very sparse and stripped down arrangement, and the absence of heavy use of electronic embellishments. In addition to the general feeling (it least by most Police fans) that they were never considered a synthpop band (again synth influenced, yes, but a synthpop band, no). The Police are a perfect example of a late '70's early 80's New Wave, punk influenced group with strong colors of Jamaican reggae beats and rhythms who crafted them together for some great pop tunes. The Thriller album covered many themes in music, but not reggae and/or sparse haunting arrangements were not any that I can remember.

As for "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" yes plenty of synth, electric keyboard generated tones/rhythms, but synthpop? Again don't want to be nitpicky, but given the landscape of bands that were the defining sound for synthpop at the time (Depeche Mode, New Order, Yaz, etc), well, listening to them and then Cyndi Lauper, its a bit of a stretch to put her in with the category of "synthpop" (if there was goofy/fun pop, then she would be a great example). Again, very much a strong pop song, but calling it synthpop is a bit of a stretch. But I will agree that MJ had some influence here.

Because a tune has a synth track in it dosen't make it a synthpop song.

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with the general statement that MJ had influence on music of the 80's (or music in general for that matter), just of the tunes you've picked as examples and/or the specific types of music that you've chosen aren’t not the best choices. Check out All Music Guide for some good info on synthpop and New Wave band history.

As to the gangsta rap influence that "Beat It" may of had, I seriously doubt it. What say you ask Ice Cube, Dr Dre, some of the original members of N.W.A or Public Ememy's Chuck D if "Beat It" had anything to do with what they were talking about? I'm more than certain they will disagree. Yes they were talking about gangs but, they were not even remotely using MJ song as a reference. The rap they were giving was about drugs, guns and death.
The dangerous streets of South Central were there long before MJ sang Beat It, they were rapping about their lives and life experience.

^ Even if I don't entirely agree, I always like debates like this, and I think you made some great points.

I agree "Every Breath You Take" really isn't synthpop or new wave at all (even if The Police get lumped into that sometimes). It's a more guitar-dominated pop song and doesn't really fit in with what was going on at the time at all. It's very unique and probably sounds more like a 1990 song than something from 1983.

???I think there is a fundamental issue in identifying what "New Wave" was or is.

I also disagree that Run DMC or LL Cool J was enabled by M Jackson.
Run DMC or LL Cool J and M Jackson were definitely on differently paths, working different music goals. The term "Hip Hop" was not really in use at the time ('83)...there was no Hip Hop, or "urban" acts so to speak. There was R&B, soul or rap, thats it.

No you are wrong even LL Cool J said on VH-1 I think Michael was the first to go or went "Gangsta" and LL was referencing the music video for "Beat It"

^ Even if I don't entirely agree, I always like debates like this, and I think you made some great points.

I agree "Every Breath You Take" really isn't synthpop or new wave at all (even if The Police get lumped into that sometimes). It's a more guitar-dominated pop song and doesn't really fit in with what was going on at the time at all. It's very unique and probably sounds more like a 1990 song than something from 1983.
Every Breath You Take " a 1990 song I don;t think so because MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice were big that year but I could see it being a hit in from 1984-1986 maybe but not 1987+. Of course Puff Daddy and Faith Evans covered and sampled the Police's Every Breath You Take in 1997 but the song did sound different from the Police's version.

No you are wrong even LL Cool J said on VH-1 I think Michael was the first to go or went "Gangsta" and LL was referencing the music video for "Beat It"

But LL Cool J, with hits like "My Radio, and I Need Love", is definitely NOT "Gangsta". So I'm not clear on his context on how MJ going gangsta influenced his music (though I do see MJ having an impact on his style, just not any type of gangsta aspect).

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I still have a hard time imagining the general listener of rap would list MJ as the major influence in the beginnings of 80's gangsta rap. ??? When most speak of gangsta rap, MJ is NOT the first artist or influence that comes to mind. James Brown or Curtis Mayfield would be the first when it comes to the actual music aspect.

Just because "Beat It" used the rivalry of gangs as a background in a music video doesn't make it a  influence to gangsta rap. Heck if that was the case we could mention "Westside Story" as having an influence on Easy-E and NWA too. Guys dancing with knives does not equal killers doing drive-bys with uzi's.

Now that is funny - It would be funny to see Ice Cube site Westside Story's guys dancing with knives as an influence.  But that was 30 years before the rap explosion in the 80's so it doesnt apply.

Personally, I think gansta rap evolved from 70's funk (as you suggest - Curtis Mayfield, Parliment, etc) but also early 80's rap (Run DMC, Afrika Bambataa, etc.).  My point about MJ was that he was the biggest artist in the world in 1983 and his music, dancing, and videos influenced black music including rap.  Just because MJ was not rapping does not mean he did not influence rappers or even Gangsta rappers.

Music evolves.  Rap started out happy and cheery then got "real." People such as Ice T started to rap about the "Gansgsta" reality that they saw and lived every day.  Don't forget that Dr. Dre was in the World Class Wrecking Crew before NWA and they were more roller-boogie than gangsta.  Apparently, Dr. Dre wasn't born a Gangsta. I am not trying to discredit his Gangsta-ness (lol) just that his music evolved. 

My point was that (I believe) most (older) rap artists will site MJ as an influence.  He was the major artist in the early 80's. And since he was on top of the world in the early 80's, he made other black artists (such as rappers) more accessible to the non-black world.  If Thriller was never released, would Run DMC have been as successful as they were? 

Bottom line - I believe MJ influenced Run DMC more than Duran Duran.


"i am a guest because my application for registration was shot down."

"i am a guest because my application for registration was shot down."



why? ???

Loosely-related, but another point I forgot to make, which may have had something to do with his immense mainstream appeal. He was the first black artist to become featured on MTV. I didn't know this until some time ago, but in the very beginning, their main focus was pop and commercial rock music, which was mainly performed by white artists. I don't believe they intentionally neglected black artists, but they still came under fire for that. However, when they gave MJ airplay (I assume by early 1983 when "Billie Jean" was released as a single), he became the biggest star in the world pretty much overnight. Of course, after this, artists like Prince and Lionel Richie had no problem crossing over.

Maybe that's why after this, it was nothing in comparison for artists like Culture Club, The Police or Cyndi Lauper to come all the way aboveground and start topping the charts. What MJ did was probably viewed as more of an accomplishment.

"New Wave" is a very fluid genre ranged from phrenetic atonal postpunk such as X-Ray Specs and Essential Logic to synth-pop acts such as A Flock of Seagulls and Ultravox. 

HOWEVER...I would not call Culture Club "New Wave" unless all music that emerged between 1978--1983 is called New Wave.  Culture Club ranged from Caribbean pop to Blue-eyed Soul, but demonstrates no discrete characteristics of New Wave except where they hinted at Ska; Madness, The Specials, The English Beat, Special AKA, and such groups are generally accepted as a branch of New Wave, but the majority of CC did not sound like this.

"Thriller" was a post-disco soul/dance record that reigned at the top of the charts when the greatest number of New Wave bands had Top 40 hits in the U.S. (1983), but per se was not New Wave.