Does anybody else agree this happened around late 1986 to 1987? By "traditional R&B", I mean people like Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, and Diana Ross who still were around and had hits as late as 1984. I'm guessing it took the rise of hip-hop pop and true hip-hop to make them totally outmoded. Even Lionel Richie, huge c. 1983, was dying off in popularity by 1987.

The very definition of 'R'n'B' has shifted over time - it originally referred to more bluesy music (Rhythm and Blues, after all) - anything from Chuck Berry and Little Richard (Rock 'n' Roll), to rootsy folk like Woody Guthrie, to straight blues and blues belters like Big Mamma Thornton. The artists you talk about fall into many categories - from blues-inspired A/C (Wonder), Motown pop/soul (Franklin), and Diana Ross (first Motown pop R'n'B, later more gospel/soul). I'd say the 'new R'n'B' period, when R'n'B became part of the mainstream, coincided with the birth of rap in the early to mid 80s. 00s R'n'B is similar to 90s, but is more 'glam' and less 'authentic' in style.

The very definition of 'R'n'B' has shifted over time - it originally referred to more bluesy music (Rhythm and Blues, after all) - anything from Chuck Berry and Little Richard (Rock 'n' Roll), to rootsy folk like Woody Guthrie, to straight blues and blues belters like Big Mamma Thornton. The artists you talk about fall into many categories - from blues-inspired A/C (Wonder), Motown pop/soul (Franklin), and Diana Ross (first Motown pop R'n'B, later more gospel/soul). I'd say the 'new R'n'B' period, when R'n'B became part of the mainstream, coincided with the birth of rap in the early to mid 80s. 00s R'n'B is similar to 90s, but is more 'glam' and less 'authentic' in style.


Basically, the division into the smooth R&B and "new jack swing"/hip-hop inspired dance-pop is what killed all these more traditional artists who'd been big since like, 1966, since they couldn't keep up with the times. Aretha Franklin was never with Motown, BTW.

Yeah, what passes for 'R'n'B' these days is often smooth/groove R'n'B, which I personally think owes more to soul (Marvin Gaye about the time he recorded 'Let's Get It On'), a bit of Barry White, Disco.etc - a blend of different styles. The 'Roots' part of R'n'B seems to have developed into its own genre, whereas 'Blues' either remained as traditional Blues, Blues-inspired rock (Cream, Led Zeppelin). In recent times rootsy folk artists have included Jack Johnson and Ben Harper. I personally see the 'selling out' of R'n'B pop and soul in the 80s and 90s as what 'outmoded' the grittier R'n'B artists of the traditional houses of Motown/Stax-Decca, and the other labels.

Yeah, what passes for 'R'n'B' these days is often smooth/groove R'n'B, which I personally think owes more to soul (Marvin Gaye about the time he recorded 'Let's Get It On'), a bit of Barry White, Disco.etc - a blend of different styles. The 'Roots' part of R'n'B seems to have developed into its own genre, whereas 'Blues' either remained as traditional Blues, Blues-inspired rock (Cream, Led Zeppelin). In recent times rootsy folk artists have included Jack Johnson and Ben Harper. I personally see the 'selling out' of R'n'B pop and soul in the 80s and 90s as what 'outmoded' the grittier R'n'B artists of the traditional houses of Motown/Stax-Decca, and the other labels.


I sort of see there as being different R&B waves:

1958-1968: Motown, stuff like early Marvin Gaye and Aretha Franklin, James Brown, etc.
1969-1985: Continued success of many aforementioned artists, disco, funk, Stevie Wonder, Al Green, Isaac Hayes, stylized Philly soul, Kool and the Gang, Lionel Richie, Prince, Michael Jackson.
1986-2000: Dance-pop like Jody Watley, hip-hop pop like TLC, Boyz II Men/Mariah Carey/Mary J. Blige type music, new jack swing, quiet storm, Whitney Houston, etc.

Many from the 1960s wave continued to try to produce records in the first half of the '80s, with a slightly '80sized synthy dance-pop or balladry sound (Stevie Wonder's "I Just Called To Say I Love You", Lionel Richie, Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing", Aretha Franklin's stuff like "Freeway of Love", and even Deniece Williams was in that range.) However, those artists were totally outmoded by hip-hop...I mean, who could imagine a rapping Stevie Wonder or even a hip-hop styled Stevie Wonder  ;D ? However, even artists from the 1970s or the funkier R&B like James Brown survived in popularity, and disco, due to the influence of those on hip-hop and house music.

I sort of see there as being different R&B waves:

1958-1968: Motown, stuff like early Marvin Gaye and Aretha Franklin, James Brown, etc.
1969-1985: Continued success of many aforementioned artists, disco, funk, Stevie Wonder, Al Green, Isaac Hayes, stylized Philly soul, Kool and the Gang, Lionel Richie, Prince, Michael Jackson.
1986-2000: Dance-pop like Jody Watley, hip-hop pop like TLC, Boyz II Men/Mariah Carey/Mary J. Blige type music, new jack swing, quiet storm, Whitney Houston, etc.

Many from the 1960s wave continued to try to produce records in the first half of the '80s, with a slightly '80sized synthy dance-pop or balladry sound (Stevie Wonder's "I Just Called To Say I Love You", Lionel Richie, Marvin Gaye's "Sexual Healing", Aretha Franklin's stuff like "Freeway of Love", and even Deniece Williams was in that range.) However, those artists were totally outmoded by hip-hop...I mean, who could imagine a rapping Stevie Wonder or even a hip-hop styled Stevie Wonder  ;D ? However, even artists from the 1970s or the funkier R&B like James Brown survived in popularity, and disco, due to the influence of those on hip-hop and house music.


For awhile, the more soulful balladry of Arethra and Stevie Wonder went out of fashion when Gangster Rap, hip-hop R'n'B came onto the scene in the 80s and 90s. Though soul manifested itself in all sorts of ways - from A/C, to pop ballads.etc., as did Funk. I just think 'Black Music' in the 60s and 70s was more diverse than it is today (which is all lumped crudely into R'n'B), but I guess that's just evolution.

It was arguably much easier to '80sify than to '90sify. To '80sify, all you had to do was add synths. Alot of the aforementioned artists, like Aretha Franklin, had tried to salvage their career by jumping on both the disco and synth bandwagons. To '90sify, you had to conform to hip-hop or grunge/indie rock influence on your work, which is more difficult.

For awhile, the more soulful balladry of Arethra and Stevie Wonder went out of fashion when Gangster Rap, hip-hop R'n'B came onto the scene in the 80s and 90s. Though soul manifested itself in all sorts of ways - from A/C, to pop ballads.etc., as did Funk. I just think 'Black Music' in the 60s and 70s was more diverse than it is today (which is all lumped crudely into R'n'B), but I guess that's just evolution.


VERY well summed up.

Personally for me, today's RnB is a totally different from the music that Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye and Lionel Richie were producing in the 80's and I fail to see the comparison.

What those artists mentioned were performing during the 80's was bluesy-soul upgraded to pop / funk to fit into the 80's era.

Today's RnB came from urban Black Hip-Hop/Rap rather than any real blues artist such as Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye.

Gah
when George Michael wins best R&B artist something is most wrong with the music world. No offence ment here but please Michaels is a soulless studio guy.

VERY well summed up.

Personally for me, today's RnB is a totally different from the music that Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye and Lionel Richie were producing in the 80's and I fail to see the comparison.

What those artists mentioned were performing during the 80's was bluesy-soul upgraded to pop / funk to fit into the 80's era.

Today's RnB came from urban Black Hip-Hop/Rap rather than any real blues artist such as Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye.


Yeah...true R&B is mostly gone for "light hip-hop" like TLC, though it does have R&B influences. There is almost no R&B in the '00s...like anyone who says Chris Brown is R&B has a hole in their head.

There was an old saying in the middle 50's that blues had a baby and it was called Rock&Roll.:P