Does anybody else here agree that the debut of Prince and Madonna, who were overtly sexual, changed alot of what was popular on MTV and who could become popular on MTV? I think performers like Boy George and Cyndi Lauper (unconventionally attractive, highly colorful and sort of "queer") only could have become popular during this time period of early MTV, when people were intrigued by the novelty of music videos, but before that whole new gang raised the standard of sexiness to be in music videos. The 1985-1986 albums of Culture Club and Cyndi Lauper did comparatively terribly. I think there was a c. 1984-1985 change in the kind of performers who could be successful, on MTV and therefore on the streets and in people's homes.

bumparoo...

Yeah, that's true. The very early MTV (1981-most of '84) was sort of the "Hall and Oates" era, where it was more simple pop/rock or interesting visual Duran Duran-type artists on MTV.

Also, the rise of heavy metal c. 1985 and the Tipper Gore/PMRC controversy kinda ended the "innocent early MTV" era too.

In thinking about it, I wonder if Prince and Madonna's sexuality and pushing the envelope sort of pointed towards the "whatever" attitude of the '90s, where that kind of stuff wasn't really a big deal by comparison anymore (I'm not saying they were pre-90s or pseudo '90s in any way. They weren't. But they probably sort of laid the groundwork fot the '90s attitude in a sense).

Yeah, that's true. The very early MTV (1981-most of '84) was sort of the "Hall and Oates" era, where it was more simple pop/rock or interesting visual Duran Duran-type artists on MTV.

Also, the rise of heavy metal c. 1985 and the Tipper Gore/PMRC controversy kinda ended the "innocent early MTV" era too.

In thinking about it, I wonder if Prince and Madonna's sexuality and pushing the envelope sort of pointed towards the "whatever" attitude of the '90s, where that kind of stuff wasn't really a big deal by comparison anymore (I'm not saying they were pre-90s or pseudo '90s in any way. They weren't. But they probably sort of laid the groundwork fot the '90s attitude in a sense).


Yes, I suppose so. I've often wondered what MTV would've been like had it debuted around 1977, and not in 1981. Probably, the disco era music videos that resulted would've been highly sexual. In alot of ways, I feel like the whole 1981-1983 era was a "return to innocence" with the election of Reagan and the return of pop like Hall and Oates, and on TV the end of the socially controversial sitcoms (ditto in the movies) and the rise of stuff like E.T..

I think all those artists like Culture Club and Cyndi Lauper (very innocent, very visually interesting pop without much sex appeal, quite campy) were swept away by the rise of the aforementioned pop superstars and their sex appeal. I really do think that was the only time in history where they could've been as huge successes as they were, the pre-1984 sort of '80s...what do you think was the reason for their popularity? The 1984 and 1986 albums of those artists, respectively, flopped.

Yes, I suppose so. I've often wondered what MTV would've been like had it debuted around 1977, and not in 1981. Probably, the disco era music videos that resulted would've been highly sexual. In alot of ways, I feel like the whole 1981-1983 era was a "return to innocence" with the election of Reagan and the return of pop like Hall and Oates, and on TV the end of the socially controversial sitcoms (ditto in the movies) and the rise of stuff like E.T..

I think all those artists like Culture Club and Cyndi Lauper (very innocent, very visually interesting pop without much sex appeal, quite campy) were swept away by the rise of the aforementioned pop superstars and their sex appeal. I really do think that was the only time in history where they could've been as huge successes as they were, the pre-1984 sort of '80s...what do you think was the reason for their popularity? The 1984 and 1986 albums of those artists, respectively, flopped.


Interesting. I guess if it started in 1977, the presentation and style would have been pretty similar to the way it really was in 1981-83 with the early new wave/pop stuff (i.e. low budget videos, alot of one hit wonders, and a gradual change in the music industry). But I agree, since much Disco music was sexual in nature, it would've been a little more controversial.

Yeah, even though Cyndi and Culture Club were very "80s" in look, they also had an innocent/nonthreatening appeal (which may be why a decent amount of older people enjoyed them or at least didn't oppose it), and Hall and Oates, Billy Joel, Huey Lewis, the Go Gos, Stray Cats or songs like "Only the Lonely" or "My Girl" by Donnie Iris were "80s-ized oldies" and a throwback to the '50s/60s.

True, I'd say c. 1982 was the most "innocent feeling" part of the '80s. It wasn't particularly rebellious. The excess of the '70s was dying fast, and it's like the average suburban teen was more known for playing Pac Man at the arcade or going to the mall rather than doing drugs or causing trouble.

Interesting. I guess if it started in 1977, the presentation and style would have been pretty similar to the way it really was in 1981-83 with the early new wave/pop stuff (i.e. low budget videos, alot of one hit wonders, and a gradual change in the music industry). But I agree, since much Disco music was sexual in nature, it would've been a little more controversial.

Yeah, even though Cyndi and Culture Club were very "80s" in look, they also had an innocent/nonthreatening appeal (which may be why a decent amount of older people enjoyed them or at least didn't oppose it), and Hall and Oates, Billy Joel, Huey Lewis, the Go Gos, Stray Cats or songs like "Only the Lonely" or "My Girl" by Donnie Iris were "80s-ized oldies" and a throwback to the '50s/60s.

True, I'd say c. 1982 was the most "innocent feeling" part of the '80s. It wasn't particularly rebellious. The excess of the '70s was dying fast, and it's like the average suburban teen was more known for playing Pac Man at the arcade or going to the mall rather than doing drugs or causing trouble.


The English Invasion would've happened, though, because promotional videos were almost unheard of in America. Nonetheless, I could see Donna Summer as sort of a late '70s Jody Watley doing pulsating club videos on dark streets for "Bad Girl" and "Hot Stuff" in 1979, strutting her stuff. The Talking Heads, Blondie, XTC, and Gary Numan would've become popular even earlier.

I think the reason for their popularity was the pure poppishness/quality of their songwriting that threw waay back to the '50s and '60s, and the novelty of their image. They had an interesting visual image while remaining innocent and non-sexual, so the teenyboppers and radio stations took them on.

The English Invasion would've happened, though, because promotional videos were almost unheard of in America. Nonetheless, I could see Donna Summer as sort of a late '70s Jody Watley doing pulsating club videos on dark streets for "Bad Girl" and "Hot Stuff" in 1979, strutting her stuff. The Talking Heads, Blondie, XTC, and Gary Numan would've become popular even earlier.

I think the reason for their popularity was the pure poppishness/quality of their songwriting that threw waay back to the '50s and '60s, and the novelty of their image. They had an interesting visual image while remaining innocent and non-sexual, so the teenyboppers and radio stations took them on.

Very true. I could also see AOR stars like Steve Miller using them (a story song like "Jet Airliner" I could easily see having a "leaving home" themed video to it). Perhaps the peak of new wave would've been even sooner than it ended up being (i.e. if Blondie and Talking Heads got popular in 1977 as opposed to peaking around '80).

It's interesting to think how the rest of the '80s would have been without the PMRC/Prince/Madonna controversies (in a way, their music retained that 1982ish innocence, with a later '80s edge too). I bet there'd be a huge popularity in ballady pop songs like "Hungry Eyes" or Steve Winwood-esque material even more than there really was.

Very true. I could also see AOR stars like Steve Miller using them (a story song like "Jet Airliner" I could easily see having a "leaving home" themed video to it). Perhaps the peak of new wave would've been even sooner than it ended up being (i.e. if Blondie and Talking Heads got popular in 1977 as opposed to peaking around '80).

It's interesting to think how the rest of the '80s would have been without the PMRC/Prince/Madonna controversies (in a way, their music retained that 1982ish innocence, with a later '80s edge too). I bet there'd be a huge popularity in ballady pop songs like "Hungry Eyes" or Steve Winwood-esque material even more than there really was.


There are also alot of ELO songs I could see having music videos.

Yeah...also, I think new wave music would've been even bigger and stayed on for longer without that whole wave of controversies. Stuff like ABC and Spandau Ballet, that whole "new pop songwriting" renaissance, could've kept on coming and developed in new directions as opposed to morphing into PSB-type dance music and then disappearing. The thing is, alot of the 1982ish artists kept putting out new albums (Cyndi's 1986 True Colors album was just as good as her first), but people weren't listening after "Like a Virgin."  1983 was sort of a mix of that "innocent '80s" mood with more 1984ish pop culture. Michael Jackson's stuff is sort of innocent in that late 1982-early 1983 way, too...it was always intended to be quite "family friendly." Also, the popularity of say R.E.M and the Replacements might've been bigger, earlier and started sort of a new American school of pop-rock songwriting.

There are also alot of ELO songs I could see having music videos.

Yeah...also, I think new wave music would've been even bigger and stayed on for longer without that whole wave of controversies. Stuff like ABC and Spandau Ballet, that whole "new pop songwriting" renaissance, could've kept on coming and developed in new directions as opposed to morphing into PSB-type dance music and then disappearing. The thing is, alot of the 1982ish artists kept putting out new albums (Cyndi's 1986 True Colors album was just as good as her first), but people weren't listening after "Like a Virgin."  1983 was sort of a mix of that "innocent '80s" mood with more 1984ish pop culture. Michael Jackson's stuff is sort of innocent in that late 1982-early 1983 way, too...it was always intended to be quite "family friendly." Also, the popularity of say R.E.M and the Replacements might've been bigger, earlier and started sort of a new American school of pop-rock songwriting.

MJ is sort of the '80s version of the Beatles, in that "family friendly, yet controversial in a way" sense. I remember alot of young kids being into MJ with Thriller, Bad, and Dangerous (in my school around 2nd grade, I know tons of them liked "Smooth Criminal" and the moonwalk in general, lol).

Yeah, would you agree REM is sort of the late '80s extension of 1982ish new wave? If the 1984/85 "controversies" hadn't happened, I bet also that "rebellious" songs would've continued to be more on the lines of "Young Turks" by Rod Stewart, and there would've been more bands inspired by songs like "Take On Me". Perhaps one reason so many new wave artists were one hit wonders is because, esp. after "Like a Virgin" came out, people only had patience/time for one hit before they got bored with what they considered to be a safe/boring new wave group? 

MJ is sort of the '80s version of the Beatles, in that "family friendly, yet controversial in a way" sense. I remember alot of young kids being into MJ with Thriller, Bad, and Dangerous (in my school around 2nd grade, I know tons of them liked "Smooth Criminal" and the moonwalk in general, lol).

Yeah, would you agree REM is sort of the late '80s extension of 1982ish new wave? If the 1984/85 "controversies" hadn't happened, I bet also that "rebellious" songs would've continued to be more on the lines of "Young Turks" by Rod Stewart, and there would've been more bands inspired by songs like "Take On Me". Perhaps one reason so many new wave artists were one hit wonders is because, esp. after "Like a Virgin" came out, people only had patience/time for one hit before they got bored with what they considered to be a safe/boring new wave group? 


MJ avoided being blase by his sheer star power, inventiveness, performing ability, and talent, even if he wasn't as cool among your average 16 year old in 1988 as he was in 1983.

Hmm, I've thought about the reason most new wave bands were one hit wonders...one of the reasons could be that they weren't terribly versatile, for the most part (some long-running bands like Depeche Mode are the exception to the rule), and highly image/novelty based. A new band with a new image had some big hit, then another band (different, but similar) came along and attracted the teenyboppers and everybody got tired of the old one. What you said is a reason, too...none of these groups (except say, Duran Duran, but since "Girls on Film" in like 1982 they had been challenging convention with stuff like that banned video) had enough to hold the American public after "When Doves Cry" and "Like a Virgin." The teenyboppers started dressing like Madonna and not to emulate their favorite new wave group.

Also, new wave was heavily overexposed between 1983 and 1986, as part of the whole British Invasion on MTV. Like, not just the good bands crossed the shores, but stuff like Haysee Fantayzee and Blancmange. There's probably alot of forgotten dreck to the genre, that got overlooked in the recent early-mid '80s nostalgia craze, and that helped the fall of the genre.

Stuff like Squeeze and XTC could've continued it's popularity...Squeeze is one excellent, almost "Beatles-like" group in its songwriting that never did elaborate music videos, though their songs suggested them, and never got into the MTV image machine (which could be self-destructive.)

^ I think aside from the "Take On Me" type huge hits, new wave was kinda overexposed in 1983-early '86. It truly seemed more innovative and original in 1978-82 (basically the pre-Thriller era). Something like "Don't You Want Me" or even some of the oldies tinged stuff like "Someday Someway" by Marshall Crenshaw for instance.

BTW do you think MJ's appeal was more kid centered with Bad and Dangerous? Of course, he had universal appeal with Thriller (even older people really liked it too, again part of the 1983ish innocence). I'd say it was more the 1977-83ers who were fans in the late '80s more than the 1971ers, for instance who would've perhaps thought they were "too cool/too old" when they were 17 in '88.

^ I think aside from the "Take On Me" type huge hits, new wave was kinda overexposed in 1983-early '86. It truly seemed more innovative and original in 1978-82 (basically the pre-Thriller era). Something like "Don't You Want Me" or even some of the oldies tinged stuff like "Someday Someway" by Marshall Crenshaw for instance.

BTW do you think MJ's appeal was more kid centered with Bad and Dangerous? Of course, he had universal appeal with Thriller (even older people really liked it too, again part of the 1983ish innocence). I'd say it was more the 1977-83ers who were fans in the late '80s more than the 1971ers, for instance who would've perhaps thought they were "too cool/too old" when they were 17 in '88.


Yeah, I definitely agree with that...his whole ouevre at that point seemed designed to appeal to people who were under 14 (the basketball player cameos in the Dangerous videos, for instance, or the sort of medium "badness" of Bad.) Part of it was that in 1980, during Off the Wall, he was a sexy young black guy, and his image changed alot with the charity work and the plastic surgery so that people 14 and over would find him uncool. It's more the people born in 1967 who've continued to respect Michael Jackson, even if it was never their type of music...like my English teacher born then was really into new wave and still speaks highly of him. And he appealed to alot of baby boomers, too, who knew him from his Jackson 5 and '70s solo days. My parents both really liked Michael Jackson when they were in their late '20s. The whole MJ range is people born from about 1953-1983.