Do you agree that Prince and Madonna sort of stole Michael Jackson's thunder, leading to rivalry with him? Michael Jackson came out as the world's biggest star in 1983, and held that position uncontestedly until the summer of 1984 with "When Doves Cry" and the immense success of Purple Rain, and then Madonna's massive success with "Like a Virgin." He got along with neither of them, apparently...I think that they were far more daring and "unusual" than him, and more sexual, and so afterwards he felt he had to up the ante of being sexual or daring, and usually ended up sounding dated.

That makes sense. Michael Jackson started going downhill in 1984.

That makes sense. Michael Jackson started going downhill in 1984.


Only to rise once again in Late 1987 with "Bad", but that run only lasted a little over a year until Late 1988/Early 1989

Then again, he was just as big in 1992 with "Dangerous" as he was in 1988 with "Bad"

Only to rise once again in Late 1987 with "Bad", but that run only lasted a little over a year until Late 1988/Early 1989

Then again, he was just as big in 1992 with "Dangerous" as he was in 1988 with "Bad"


I would say Prince started going downhill in 1992 seriously, but began going downhill around 1988. Madonna's fall was quite sudden around 1992, and then she sort of came back with "Take a Bow" around late 1994, and never quite fell away after that except for 2002-2004. Michael Jackson always seemed a little bit dated to me starting in 1984 or 1985...though he was huge enough to retain popularity until the middle of 1992.

The 1980's were a very fluid era in music.  And that is even more obvious when you look at R&B.

Michael Jackson was called "The King Of Pop" because he recorded a form of R&B that was also very popular as a cross-over to the pop charts.  And that is just a continuation of what he did with his brothers.  He even tapped into Disco at it's height.

By the 1980's, you had several forms of R&B fighting for dominance.  You had the more old-timers, like Michael Jackson, Lionel Ritchie, and Stevie Wonder.  You also had Prince, who was much more rock-funk influenced.  Then you had the increasing popularity of the upcomming Rap & Hip Hop genre.

I think the latter forms of music is what really killed Prince, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, and the others.  Before any of them could "cross over" to Pop, they first had to rise on the R&B charts.  And we saw the more Blues influenced singers like them falling away as groups like Run DMC, LL Cool J, Sugarhill Gang, Public Enemy, and 2 Live Crew took over the R&B charts.

By the end of the 1980's, that entire genre of R&B had pretty much vanished.  Madonna and most of the others of that era in "Rock Pop" (Huey Lewis, Billy Joel, Cindy Laupner) all died in a similar change in the Pop chart.  The 80's "Mellow Rock" died away under the onslaught of Grunge and cross-over from Hip-Hop/Rap.

I don't think any one of them stole another's thunder.    The crotch-grabbing didn't work for Michael Jackson.

The 1980's were a very fluid era in music.  And that is even more obvious when you look at R&B.

Michael Jackson was called "The King Of Pop" because he recorded a form of R&B that was also very popular as a cross-over to the pop charts.  And that is just a continuation of what he did with his brothers.  He even tapped into Disco at it's height.

By the 1980's, you had several forms of R&B fighting for dominance.  You had the more old-timers, like Michael Jackson, Lionel Ritchie, and Stevie Wonder.  You also had Prince, who was much more rock-funk influenced.  Then you had the increasing popularity of the upcomming Rap & Hip Hop genre.

I think the latter forms of music is what really killed Prince, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, and the others.  Before any of them could "cross over" to Pop, they first had to rise on the R&B charts.  And we saw the more Blues influenced singers like them falling away as groups like Run DMC, LL Cool J, Sugarhill Gang, Public Enemy, and 2 Live Crew took over the R&B charts.

By the end of the 1980's, that entire genre of R&B had pretty much vanished.  Madonna and most of the others of that era in "Rock Pop" (Huey Lewis, Billy Joel, Cindy Laupner) all died in a similar change in the Pop chart.  The 80's "Mellow Rock" died away under the onslaught of Grunge and cross-over from Hip-Hop/Rap.


IMO, Madonna and Janet Jackson were able to find their place with R&B-influenced dance-pop and well-crafted ballads much more easily than Michael Jackson and Prince...male artists of that type transitioned less easily. Janet Jackson continued to be successful through the '90s, up to and including "Together Again" from around 1998, a song which I really love. Madonna's nadir on the charts was 1992's Erotica. That album wasn't equal to the stuff from 1989, which was really the peak of her career, but I did happen to like the songs alot, and it was very much so a '90s album: "Erotica" is a very sexy dance-house number with Shep Pettibone, as was "Fever", and "Bye Bye Baby" had a hip-hop feel. "Bad Girl" and "Rain" are '90s style ballads, for example...and "Deeper and Deeper", arguably the strongest song off the CD, hit #1 in Canada but only #7 in the US. 1991-1992 was the last year where songs like "Cream" or "Black or White" could be successful.

I think around 1991-1992, towards the "beginning of the true early '90s", all three of the artists discussed in this thread were trying to update themselves into the '90s with house and rap influences...with varying success. IMO, Thriller was the beginning of the end of MJ's career. After the steam from the album died down, he had to resort to being "weird", deliberately at first-causing the "Wacko Jacko" nickname. Once you do an album like Thriller, it's almost impossible to follow it up...this is the same thing as She's So Unusual and Cyndi Lauper. So Bad was seen as being overly mechanical and a comparatively bad record. MJ always made sure to maintain a very family-friendly, child-friendly image...part of this was that his music stopped being daring and he stopped changing as much with every album, while Prince and Madonna made more of an effort to reinvent themselves and keep on top. I'm guessing the family-friendly pop of MJ seemed a little bit blase by early 1985, after stuff like Prince's "Darling Nikki" and Madonna simulating masturbation in a wedding dress at the 1985 VMAs. He didn't get along with either of them, I know that...Prince always thought he was corporate and Madonna always thought he was a weirdo (he called her a "fat cow" at one point, allegedly.) Also, I'm guessing MJ began to be seen as weird and overly indulgent by 1987, with the lighter skin color and ridiculous spending habits.

Bumparooni...

as far as Michael and Madonna not getting along... that may be the case, but they did go to the 1991 Academy Awards together.  Don't think they were spotted together before or since, though.  There was a rumor that she was the mystery girl on "In The Closet" from "Dangerous" but I believe that was proven to be false (sounds like her, though)

I don't think Madonna stole Michael's thunder.  She is just better at keeping the public's attention in a positive way.  And she never messed around with little boys, that helped too.

For the most part, they had very different target groups.  And before you can cross over into Pop, you have to please your target audience.

Madonna was a Dance performer, who crossed over into Pop Rock.  Her early works like "Lucky Star", "Everybody", and "Holiday" show this.  They were all dance songs, but were "New Wave" enough to make it as Pop songs.  Her "New York Urchin" look helped as well, since most of the pop songs of the era were from former New York Punk performers.

Michael Jackson was always an R&B performer.  His songs all came from the R&B charts, with their heavy Motown influence.  But they were also close enough to "Pop Rock" that most of them transitioned easily.  It was a skill he learned from his time with the Jackson Five, and it worked well for him.  And a few others followed him with that style, like DeBarge.

However, both Madonna and Michael suffered as their original fan base changed and they did not move with it.  "Bad" was little different from "Thriller", and while popular as a Pop album, it did less well as an R&B album because R&B was already changing.

Madonna had the same problem with her "Like A Prayer" album.  Her style was largely unchanged from her first "Madonna" album 6 years earlier.  By this time, Hip Hop was taking over both the Dance charts, and the R&B charts.  Madonna was replaced by songs like C&C Music Factory's "Gonna Make You Sweat (Everybody Dance Now)" and House Of Pain's "Jump Around".  By the end of the decade, both Madonna and MJ sounded "old".

This shows even more with their newer works.  "Love Profusion" (2003) was the last #1 she had on the Dance charts, and her last Top 10 Pop song was "Die Another Day" in 2002.  Her last #1 pop song was "Music", from 2000.

For Michael Jackson it is even worse.  Since 1990, Madonna has released 12 albums (not including remixes and collections).  In the same period, Michael Jackson has released 2.  It is hard to even make it onto the charts if you are not releasing any new music.

It is much the same way as Guns & Roses.  When a group or individual goes a decade without new material, it is only natural to consider them "yesterday's news".  G&R has not released a CD with original content since 1991.  "Chonese Democracy" has been a "work in progress" since 1997, and it is unlikely it will ever be released.  And even if it is, it will be so outdated that it will likely be ignored by most people other then diehard fans.

I would argue that Madonna's style actually changed quite a bit, starting in 1986. LAP incorporated various styles, including gospel choirs (a popular late '80s feature), funky R&B ("Keep It Together"), balladry ("Oh Father", "Spanish Eyes", "Act of Contrition"), dancey power pop referencing Motown and classic soul ("Express Yourself", "Cherish"), and "pretty pop" like "Dear Jessie." The album did very well on the pop charts, and decently on the dance charts, and I don't think it did well on the R&B charts. It was her most distant album from the almost exclusively dance tracks she was doing in the first half of the '80s, and with Erotica in 1992 she attempted to regain the dance audience, which she mildly succeeded in doing, by getting William Orbit and using house music, but it was out of touch with the pop charts of 1992.

I agree MJ ran into issues because of the changing target audience of R&B. R&B was becoming increasingly house and hip-hop influenced, and while he made steps to move in this direction with Dangerous, in terms of R&B he was stuck in the early '80s, the last period tied to the '60s and '70s in a way. Also, it was a less dance-y album...in fact, it almost had no R&B tracks. It was made for mostly a white pop audience as opposed to the black R&B audience that gained him his popularity. Prince had similar problems...he started out as a modern funk artist in the late '70s and crossed over into pop-rock in 1984 with PR, then distanced himself heavily from an urban audience for the last half of the '80s with the psychedelia of ATWIAD, the Euro mood music of Parade, the vaguely '60s innovation of SOT (more in touch with the times, but still "out there"), and then attempted to regain his "urban" audience with Diamonds and Pearls in 1992.

I'm sorry, but this is so completely untrue.  She has a #1 Dance Single right now called "Get Together".  In fact, all three singles from her new album went to #1 on this chart.  Her last top 10 pop song was "Hung Up", from her new album, which went to #8 at the end of '05.  The album itself debuted at #1.  "Hung Up" was officially named one of the top 3 most successful songs in the history of the world, when you take it's performance in other countries into account.  #1 in 40+ countries at the same time. 

In 1990 she released "i'm breathless", followed by "the immaculate collection".  then came "erotica" in 92, "bedtime stories" in 94, "something to remember" in 95, "evita" in 96, "ray of light" in 98, "music" in 2000, "greatest hits vol 2" in 2001, "american life" in 2003 and "confessions on a dancefloor" on 2005.  the last three went to #1.  every single album has sold at least 1 million copies (except maybe "American Life"), all debuted in the top 5.  even the Evita soundtrack made it to #2.  she's remained very successful, though not as insanely popular as she was in the 80's

"This shows even more with their newer works.  "Love Profusion" (2003) was the last #1 she had on the Dance charts, and her last Top 10 Pop song was "Die Another Day" in 2002.  Her last #1 pop song was "Music", from 2000."

I'm sorry, but this is so completely untrue.  She has a #1 Dance Single right now called "Get Together".  In fact, all three singles from her new album went to #1 on this chart.  Her last top 10 pop song was "Hung Up", from her new album, which went to #8 at the end of '05.  The album itself debuted at #1.  "Hung Up" was officially named one of the top 3 most successful songs in the history of the world, when you take it's performance in other countries into account.  #1 in 40+ countries at the same time. 

In 1990 she released "i'm breathless", followed by "the immaculate collection".  then came "erotica" in 92, "bedtime stories" in 94, "something to remember" in 95, "evita" in 96, "ray of light" in 98, "music" in 2000, "greatest hits vol 2" in 2001, "american life" in 2003 and "confessions on a dancefloor" on 2005.  the last three went to #1.  every single album has sold at least 1 million copies (except maybe "American Life"), all debuted in the top 5.  even the Evita soundtrack made it to #2.  she's remained very successful, though not as insanely popular as she was in the 80's

"This shows even more with their newer works.  "Love Profusion" (2003) was the last #1 she had on the Dance charts, and her last Top 10 Pop song was "Die Another Day" in 2002.  Her last #1 pop song was "Music", from 2000."



Madonna is one of the very few '80s pop stars (along with like, Janet Jackson) not to lose that much popularity over the years.

Prince had similar problems...he started out as a modern funk artist in the late '70s and crossed over into pop-rock in 1984 with PR, then distanced himself heavily from an urban audience for the last half of the '80s with the psychedelia of ATWIAD, the Euro mood music of Parade, the vaguely '60s innovation of SOT (more in touch with the times, but still "out there"), and then attempted to regain his "urban" audience with Diamonds and Pearls in 1992.


Prince is actually a unique situation.  He is actually the example of an artist that choose to self-destruct his career.

In 1994, he got into a dispute with Warner Brothers Records.  It resulted in him trying to leave the company, only to be told that they owned his name, and the right to all of his songs until the end of the decade.  As a result, he refused to record any music as "Prince", and became known as TAFKAP.

In short, he re-invented himself as an artist that had almost no sellable product.  Because of the extreme adult content of most of his songs in the era ("Pussy Control", "Scarlet Pussy", "Orgasm"), it was assured that almost none of his songs could be played on the radio (without heavy editing).  In addition, a lot of stores (Target, WalMart, K-Mart, etc) would not carry his CDs, since they do not carry music with "Adult Content".

The last half of the decade was basically his way of striking back at WB.  He was under contract to make CDs, but he was not required to make them playable on the radio or easy to sell without a mandatory "adult content" label.  As a result, his career basically stood in limbo for the next 6 years.  His music could be played at the more adult oriented dance clubs and strip clubs, but almost nowhere else.  And some of the songs were considered so offensive that they could not even be played at those venues.

With the end of the decade, he is still trying to regain his popularity among the general public.  He has once again returned to making more openly playable music, and is once again recieving radio airplay.  However, it is questionable wether he will ever regain the popularity he had a decade ago.

Prince is actually a unique situation.  He is actually the example of an artist that choose to self-destruct his career.

In 1994, he got into a dispute with Warner Brothers Records.  It resulted in him trying to leave the company, only to be told that they owned his name, and the right to all of his songs until the end of the decade.  As a result, he refused to record any music as "Prince", and became known as TAFKAP.

In short, he re-invented himself as an artist that had almost no sellable product.  Because of the extreme adult content of most of his songs in the era ("Pussy Control", "Scarlet Pussy", "Orgasm"), it was assured that almost none of his songs could be played on the radio (without heavy editing).  In addition, a lot of stores (Target, WalMart, K-Mart, etc) would not carry his CDs, since they do not carry music with "Adult Content".

The last half of the decade was basically his way of striking back at WB.  He was under contract to make CDs, but he was not required to make them playable on the radio or easy to sell without a mandatory "adult content" label.  As a result, his career basically stood in limbo for the next 6 years.  His music could be played at the more adult oriented dance clubs and strip clubs, but almost nowhere else.  And some of the songs were considered so offensive that they could not even be played at those venues.

With the end of the decade, he is still trying to regain his popularity among the general public.  He has once again returned to making more openly playable music, and is once again recieving radio airplay.  However, it is questionable wether he will ever regain the popularity he had a decade ago.


Yeah, I see how that happened with Prince. He always had a "love-hate" attitude towards fame, as well, and was concerned with defying expectations about him. Like he released The Black Album along with Lovesexy to contradict each other, and chose to change his style with every album (for better or for worse), so he remained consistent. I think he said the reason that he wanted to change his name to TAFKAP was so WB couldn't make money off of the Prince name anymore...following the aforementioned "strip club music" period, he converted to Jehovah's Witnesses and forsook that sort of music.

Bump...