...in comparison to the 60s and 70s as a whole. Of course I'm being stupid, but alot of 80s music seemed very artificial and robotic, almost unnatural in a way. Comments, arguments?

...in comparison to the 60s and 70s as a whole. Of course I'm being stupid, but alot of 80s music seemed very artificial and robotic, almost unnatural in a way. Comments, arguments?

Depends...if you look at the Glam Rock/Hair bands with their sooooo over the top cheesy lyrics and those poser outfits then I agree with your statement.
That's one of the reasons why grunge became so popular: people were bloody sick and tired of the fake over the top emotions these bands put in their lyrics,it was time for REAL feelings,no nonsense kitsch,slick and often misogynist lyrics.
HOWEVER there was loads of great 80s bands so you can't generalise.

Depends...if you look at the Glam Rock/Hair bands with their sooooo over the top cheesy lyrics and those poser outfits then I agree with your statement.
That's one of the reasons why grunge became so popular: people were bloody sick and tired of the fake over the top emotions these bands put in their lyrics,it was time for REAL feelings,no nonsense kitsch,slick and often misogynist lyrics.
HOWEVER there was loads of great 80s bands so you can't generalise.


Lol, 'misogynist' and nihilistic lyrics were nothing new - i.e. the Velvet Underground. And yes, I have to say above all the heap (when I say '80s' I'm more talking the bulk of radio-friendly 80s pop) were the standout bands like the Smiths, Tears for Fears, XTC.etc.

  I agree, for the most part.  As chaka said depends on the genre, like you said mainstream pop begins to take on the plasctic and manufactured feel that 90's pop perfected almost to a science...

In defense of '80s music, I think it had it all... and not every year in the '80s was souless. The early '80s had some good "soul" to it.

In defense of '80s music, I think it had it all... and not every year in the '80s was souless. The early '80s had some good "soul" to it.


Even Hair metal and rock in general had a dulllness about it - great as they could be, bands like Van Halen probably tried too hard to emulate the style of 70s rock groups like Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, and sort of grew out of the scene that developed alongside punk in the late 70s spawning Aerosmith, Twisted Sister, Boston.etc.

I suppose I am thankful for the lack of 80's soul in a way... because imo it was crap!  I love 60's & 70's soul, and even some 90's soul but the 80's "freestyle" which I guess could be grouped with soul was pretty bad.  There were a few exceptions of course... I liked Tender Love by Force MD's, Secret Lovers by Atlantic Starr (sorta soul-ish), All Cried Out by Lisa Lisa, etc... but NKOTB, late 80's New Edition, Milli Vanilli was not my thing at all.  So I guess I'm glad there wasn't more of it.

I suppose I am thankful for the lack of 80's soul in a way... because imo it was crap!  I love 60's & 70's soul, and even some 90's soul but the 80's "freestyle" which I guess could be grouped with soul was pretty bad.   There were a few exceptions of course... I liked Tender Love by Force MD's, Secret Lovers by Atlantic Starr (sorta soul-ish), All Cried Out by Lisa Lisa, etc... but NKOTB, late 80's New Edition, Milli Vanilli was not my thing at all.  So I guess I'm glad there wasn't more of it.


I'm not actually referring to the 'Soul' genre (although the 80s did seem berefit of soul compared to the 60s, 70s or even the 90s), but the fact 80s music in general lacked a certain 'feeling' or 'soul' that 70s music had. Of course, it's a very subjective viewpoint, and there was alot of 'soulful' 80s music (some U2, even INXS), but a cynical materialism sort of prevailed throughout the decade even with 'social conscious' songwriters like Bryan Adams or Bruce Springsteen.

Perhaps Madonna in her 'Material Girl' persona sort of set the model for the material-obsessed pop star of the 80s.

...in comparison to the 60s and 70s as a whole. Of course I'm being stupid, but alot of 80s music seemed very artificial and robotic, almost unnatural in a way. Comments, arguments?


The most "souless" music out there has to be the current (late 90s to present) music.  Britney Spears, NSYNC, anyone?

But I know what you're getting at with respect to the 80s music.  When I was in college during the middle of that decade, we seemed to have a fascination with the 60s and 70s.  Especially with the music.  There was great music in the 80s, but there was something magical about the stuff from our childhood.

There could be several reasons for this.  The music of the 60s and 70s was more innovative and fresh.  The 80s were the first decade big on nostalgia.  Depending on what side of the cultural divide you were on, you were either nostalgic for the late 60s or the early 60s during that time.  Implicit in nostalgia is the attitude that the present is somehow inferior to the past.  Also, there's the whole transformation of the entertainment industry.  MTV --- it's more important that the singers look sexy or cool than whether the music is any good, and this attitude led to things like Milli Vanilli and then the boy band phenomenon of the late 90s.  The attitude of music executives that music was a business, to be targetted at demographics with the primary aim to make money rather than what was best artistically.

The 80s was a fun decade... people had so many serious issues in the 60s and 70s I think the world wanted to lighten up. The 90s was worse for soul-less music in general. At least 80s pop had melody and that feelgood factor. 90s was just erratic rap and cheesy Euro stuff.

90s was just erratic rap and cheesy Euro stuff.

Again,you can't generalise in such a radical way.
There was alot of "soul" in some 90s bands.

Even Hair metal and rock in general had a dulllness about it - great as they could be, bands like Van Halen probably tried too hard to emulate the style of 70s rock groups like Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, and sort of grew out of the scene that developed alongside punk in the late 70s spawning Aerosmith, Twisted Sister, Boston.etc.
Umm Van Halen were a 70's band !

Depends...if you look at the Glam Rock/Hair bands with their sooooo over the top cheesy lyrics and those poser outfits then I agree with your statement.
That's one of the reasons why grunge became so popular: people were bloody sick and tired of the fake over the top emotions these bands put in their lyrics,it was time for REAL feelings,no nonsense kitsch,slick and often misogynist lyrics.
HOWEVER there was loads of great 80s bands so you can't generalise.
I disagree with you almost completely. I was a huge fan of this Glam cheese as you call it and the whole point of Glam metal was it was meant to be FUN ! It wasn't meant to be taken seriously, although some bands did take themselves seriously within the genre I grant you and got laughed at for it. It was meant to be over the top, in your face silliness.Of course the genre was going to be short lived that really was what it was about.There were plenty of rock bands out there writing songs with REAL feelings, in terms of metal and rock that just carried on alongside the whole Glam thing.

I think the 90's was the most souless musical era as far as chart music went, you only have to look at the number of cover versions all the boy bands did to see there was very little original stuff in the charts.

Umm Van Halen were a 70's band !


Their self-title debut was released in 1978, although I think they are more an '80s band' (although they formed in the 70s) in style, atittude.etc, rather than the classic 'Heavy metal' sound of Led Zep, Badfinger, Uriah Heep, Steppenwolf.etc.

I disagree with you almost completely. I was a huge fan of this Glam cheese as you call it and the whole point of Glam metal was it was meant to be FUN ! It wasn't meant to be taken seriously, although some bands did take themselves seriously within the genre I grant you and got laughed at for it. It was meant to be over the top, in your face silliness.Of course the genre was going to be short lived that really was what it was about.There were plenty of rock bands out there writing songs with REAL feelings, in terms of metal and rock that just carried on alongside the whole Glam thing.

I think the 90's was the most souless musical era as far as chart music went, you only have to look at the number of cover versions all the boy bands did to see there was very little original stuff in the charts.


Like a multi-coloured prism, I think you're looking from the 90s from the wrong angle. They weren't all about saccharine ballads, boy bands.etc - while the American charts were dominated by Rap, R'n'B, hip hop.etc as early as about 1993, in other countries were was a good deal of Indie rock.etc, which put far more emotional content into their lyrics and songs than mass-produced pop.

Their self-title debut was released in 1978, although I think they are more an '80s band' (although they formed in the 70s) in style, atittude.etc, rather than the classic 'Heavy metal' sound of Led Zep, Badfinger, Uriah Heep, Steppenwolf.etc.
Nah, 1984 was their first '80's' sounding album which came out in 1984 !

Like a multi-coloured prism, I think you're looking from the 90s from the wrong angle. They weren't all about saccharine ballads, boy bands.etc - while the American charts were dominated by Rap, R'n'B, hip hop.etc as early as about 1993, in other countries were was a good deal of Indie rock.etc, which put far more emotional content into their lyrics and songs than mass-produced pop.



But that's exactly how I think you are looking at the 80's !

I disagree with you almost completely. I was a huge fan of this Glam cheese as you call it and the whole point of Glam metal was it was meant to be FUN ! It wasn't meant to be taken seriously, although some bands did take themselves seriously within the genre I grant you and got laughed at for it. It was meant to be over the top, in your face silliness.

It's all a matter of taste plus people listen to music for different reasons:
-background music
-to dance to it
-to actually LISTEN to it
etc
IMO there's a lot of good-mood music that doesn't slap it on over the top and exaggerates to a point that it starts to be ridiculous..again,that's MY opinion of most glam/hair bands.
But I do see your point...it's all a matter of taste and it's good that there's so much diversity in music,that way everyone can decide for themselves what they chose to listen to and what they
like/dislike

It's all a matter of taste plus people listen to music for different reasons:
-background music
-to dance to it
-to actually LISTEN to it
etc
IMO there's a lot of good-mood music that doesn't slap it on over the top and exaggerates to a point that it starts to be ridiculous..again,that's MY opinion of most glam/hair bands.
But I do see your point...it's all a matter of taste and it's good that there's so much diversity in music,that way everyone can decide for themselves what they chose to listen to and what they
like/dislike

Very true, very true.

I'll agree to an extent.  Popular music that began to be created using more synthetic means (drum machines, distorted sounds etc) seemed to be without soul.  I would say that 80's pop music has less soul than pop music from preceding decades but moreso than say, today's popular music.

I'll agree to an extent.  Popular music that began to be created using more synthetic means (drum machines, distorted sounds etc) seemed to be without soul.  I would say that 80's pop music has less soul than pop music from preceding decades but moreso than say, today's popular music.


Yeah, again it depends how you look at it. And as chaka said, some music is more listening to, relating to and experiencing...other music is purely a visceral, sensory experience.

...in comparison to the 60s and 70s as a whole. Of course I'm being stupid, but alot of 80s music seemed very artificial and robotic, almost unnatural in a way. Comments, arguments?


What do you think of the "comeback/continued hits" in the '80s by older artists from that era (e.g. "Some Guys Have All the Luck" by Rod Stewart, "We Built This City", "Centerfield" by John Fogerty, "Living in America" by James Brown)?

Some of these songs were VERY '80s, but others struck a good balance between the artist's basic trademark sound and the '80s sound, without being forced or going too far.

What do you think of the "comeback/continued hits" in the '80s by older artists from that era (e.g. "Some Guys Have All the Luck" by Rod Stewart, "We Built This City", "Centerfield" by John Fogerty, "Living in America" by James Brown)?

Some of these songs were VERY '80s, but others struck a good balance between the artist's basic trademark sound and the '80s sound, without being forced or going too far.


I felt too many artists who were popular because of their own 'trademark' sound - the screeching soul of James Brown, or the understated pop-masterminding of Bowie, tried too hard to change to suit the times. Alot of Bowie's music is as 80s as you can get - it is the definition of synth-pop. But some artists bucked the trend to come up with some really original and inventive recordings.

I felt too many artists who were popular because of their own 'trademark' sound - the screeching soul of James Brown, or the understated pop-masterminding of Bowie, tried too hard to change to suit the times. Alot of Bowie's music is as 80s as you can get - it is the definition of synth-pop. But some artists bucked the trend to come up with some really original and inventive recordings.

True, alot of the "veteran" artists made some of the most "80s sounding" music ever.

Do you like Paul McCartney's '80s pop hits like "Say Say Say", "So Bad" and "No More Lonely Nights" (I love the latter, as a slightly rock-edgy love song. That's a good example IMO of "80s but not too '80s"). ;)

True, alot of the "veteran" artists made some of the most "80s sounding" music ever.

Do you like Paul McCartney's '80s pop hits like "Say Say Say", "So Bad" and "No More Lonely Nights" (I love the latter, as a slightly rock-edgy love song. That's a good example IMO of "80s but not too '80s"). ;)


I have to say I haven't heard much of Sir Paul's solo recordings - I wasn't that impressed with 'Maybe I'm Amazed', and the other stuff he did with Wings, so I guess I didn't really follow his discography to the 80s. But yes, it seemed the 80s suckered in almost everything - it certain had alot stronger pull than the relatively 'weak' and 'unstated' sound of the 90s.

hey just adding my 2cents. But if you want numbers go to Billboards The 80's where the death knell of pure music. The numbers reveal this in fact. Starting in 1987 country music out sold rock for the first time in history. And since then it has still out sold rock or rap You can count the wow 10 mil disc's that Bon Jovi sold but how does that compare to the 14 mil that Garth sold. Billboard has been keeping close tabs on these numbers. Yes the boy bands broke records for sales in one week but compare Spears sold 7 mil of her 2 album in the states. Fatih Hill sold 13 mil . The pure fact that country today reminds me of the 70's stuff.  It is a very weird cycle the way the music world is. But the numbers don't lie. Shania's 2 and 3 album sold a total of 50 mill.. She is now in the top 5 best selling female artist. Don't get me wrong I am a rock fan but it is hard to  love something that started in the 80's that became so shallow. With the advent of MTV the end of the pure soul in the music died. Just go down to the Kool Jazz Fest in SD or to NO. If you want to hear the pure music.  Or listen to the underground music that never gets in the main stream. I loved Metallica pre Black album.
Ok flamers get out yer flamethrowers.
Grunge started bringing the music back but even that didn't last long.

Unfortunately, the media has not helped the 80's case.

TV shows like Sky's 'I Love The 80's have spawned a whole host of other poor clones, where such legendary 80's stars such as 'Right Said Fred' are invited to give their expert commentary on the cultural points of the decade.

- Yeah, right.

The 80's will be best remembered, in my opinion for Pop Music.  Pop Music doesn't always mean soul music, so in this case I think you do certainly have a point here.  However, what all too many modern day TV and radio shows lose sight of is the sheer diversity of the decade.....and they are too keen to revert to the likes of Wham!, Madonna, Spandau Ballet etc etc.

Sadly, the greatest examples where synth, electric guitar and drum all came together to create a unique experience are so often overlooked in favour of cheese.  I challenge anyone to find a more soulful song than Dire Straits 'Brothers In Arms'.

The 80's had so much more than cheese...Punk, New Wave, New Romantic, SKA, Hair Metal, Synthpop, Goth and Rap to name but a few. 
Sadly, this is often overlooked.

It is also a shame that the 90's also suffer from the same problem.  Early in the decade, we had the great Madchester hippy-movement which produced some cracking music, and dance music reached it's peak during the mid 90's with the likes of Faithless.  But yet it always seems to be represented by the media as the decade which only gave us the Gallagher brothers, Spice Girls and Boyzone.

 

Grunge started bringing the music back but even that didn't last long.


I guess we should be grateful for small mercies.

I'm not really sure that your figures mean anything.  You could counter your argument by saying that back in 1996/7 before music downloading began, a record that was no 15 on the uk singles chart in 1981 would be number 1.  Does that mean that music in the 80's was better because everyone was buying more singles back then?  Not necessarily, but you could think so.

When you talk about 'pure' music, what are we talking about here?  Green Day or Andy Williams?

...in comparison to the 60s and 70s as a whole. Of course I'm being stupid, but alot of 80s music seemed very artificial and robotic, almost unnatural in a way. Comments, arguments?


I also have to say that, I found a lot of the Beatles stuff totally overrated and souless.  Take 'Yellow Submarine', 'Strawberry Fields' and 'Ob La Di' for example....hardly tunes that contain much soul are they?  But the modern media wouldn't dare criticise would they?  I mean they are the Beatles after all  ::)

In fact, a lot of the 60's in general did contain an awful lot of wishy-washy pap in comparison to legends like the Stones and The Doors.  There seemed to be a lot of people around singing some pretty meaningless stuff....let's not forget the likes of Cliff Richard, The Seekers, Cher...

I have to say that when hard facts are examined, the 1980's were no less 'soulful' than the 60's or 70's.

Ah but When counting The Magical Mystery Tour you should also remember that 99% of that album was written while getting high on acid and heading off to be with that Guru. But yes there was a lot of soulless music in the 60's and 70's as well but no where does it equal to the 80's.  Honestly with the age of MTV the soul of the good music you want to hear is not gonna be found anywhere on tv. You have to go to certain radio stations or underground. But it has always been that way,  to find the great music you have to search. I don't know If you where around in the 70's when fm was just starting to hit. That was where the good music was back then.  You could always find a Gratefull dead or Sabbath tune on there. But once it started to be the  mainstream of music, again you had to search for the good stuff.. And as for my numbers please When Garth Brooks became the all time male in sales my stomach did a complete flop...I don't mind some country..But to be honest The only thing country music is good for is if you play it backwards you get your house back, your dog back, your car back and etc...And todays country seems to be a lot of 70's remade.

Ah but When counting The Magical Mystery Tour you should also remember that 99% of that album was written while getting high on acid and heading off to be with that Guru. But yes there was a lot of soulless music in the 60's and 70's as well but no where does it equal to the 80's.  Honestly with the age of MTV the soul of the good music you want to hear is not gonna be found anywhere on tv. You have to go to certain radio stations or underground. But it has always been that way,  to find the great music you have to search. I don't know If you where around in the 70's when fm was just starting to hit. That was where the good music was back then.  You could always find a Gratefull dead or Sabbath tune on there. But once it started to be the  mainstream of music, again you had to search for the good stuff.. And as for my numbers please When Garth Brooks became the all time male in sales my stomach did a complete flop...I don't mind some country..But to be honest The only thing country music is good for is if you play it backwards you get your house back, your dog back, your car back and etc...And todays country seems to be a lot of 70's remade.

The honest answer is: Don't watch MTV! 

It isn't just the case for 60's and 70's music either. To get the great stuff of the 80's, I don't rely on large commercial Radio or Cable channels.  A sign of the times is that we have to find our own means of getting the music we want now, but thank goodness for Internet Radio and suchlike.

Aside from that, you and I just have a fundamental disagreement on what is 'pure music.  'Pure music' to me is not Grateful Dead or Black Sabbath, but that's your opinion and of course I respect that.  8)

Those where just two samples. I Could go on about pure music. I'll take BB, Rufas Thomas, Wilson Pickett

Ah but When counting The Magical Mystery Tour you should also remember that 99% of that album was written while getting high on acid and heading off to be with that Guru. But yes there was a lot of soulless music in the 60's and 70's as well but no where does it equal to the 80's.  Honestly with the age of MTV the soul of the good music you want to hear is not gonna be found anywhere on tv. You have to go to certain radio stations or underground. But it has always been that way,  to find the great music you have to search. I don't know If you where around in the 70's when fm was just starting to hit. That was where the good music was back then.  You could always find a Gratefull dead or Sabbath tune on there. But once it started to be the  mainstream of music, again you had to search for the good stuff.. And as for my numbers please When Garth Brooks became the all time male in sales my stomach did a complete flop...I don't mind some country..But to be honest The only thing country music is good for is if you play it backwards you get your house back, your dog back, your car back and etc...And todays country seems to be a lot of 70's remade.



I think the 'soulessness' and over-produced nature of 80s music could be a reflection of the yuppieism, and pursuit of the Almighty dollar during the Reaganite, free-for-all 80s. The same thing happened with 'Thatcherism' in Britain - alot of it, of course, was savage political satire and protest, largely influenced by the Smiths, Tears for Fears, the Cure, New Order, Cocteau Twins.etc.

Don't get me wrong there was some great music to come out of the 80's, just seemed like it was far and few between.
I loved the Cult, Fire Woman and Sweet Soul Sister where great. Plus many others. And as for today's type I love Nightwish.:):)

hey just adding my 2cents. But if you want numbers go to Billboards The 80's where the death knell of pure music. The numbers reveal this in fact. Starting in 1987 country music out sold rock for the first time in history. And since then it has still out sold rock or rap You can count the wow 10 mil disc's that Bon Jovi sold but how does that compare to the 14 mil that Garth sold. Billboard has been keeping close tabs on these numbers. Yes the boy bands broke records for sales in one week but compare Spears sold 7 mil of her 2 album in the states. Fatih Hill sold 13 mil . The pure fact that country today reminds me of the 70's stuff.  It is a very weird cycle the way the music world is. But the numbers don't lie. Shania's 2 and 3 album sold a total of 50 mill.. She is now in the top 5 best selling female artist. Don't get me wrong I am a rock fan but it is hard to  love something that started in the 80's that became so shallow. With the advent of MTV the end of the pure soul in the music died. Just go down to the Kool Jazz Fest in SD or to NO. If you want to hear the pure music.  Or listen to the underground music that never gets in the main stream. I loved Metallica pre Black album.
Ok flamers get out yer flamethrowers.
Grunge started bringing the music back but even that didn't last long.


I was big into country music, in the early and mid 90's, but I think it really started to decline in the late 90's, and continues to today. If it's not really mediocre pop ballets, masquerading as country, it's braindead, stupid redneck "fun" songs. I like the fact, that more and more people are into country music nowadays, than ever before, I just wish the music was better.

what do you expect with songs like Honky Tonk Badonkadonk :P

I think Shania Twain's massive album from 1997, may have been an influence, for the way country music is nowadays. I found Most of the hit songs from that album, annoying, easy, silly, and cheap.

....annoying, easy, silly, and cheap.


I suppose that kinda sums her up as well  ;)

when she hit it big time playboy ran a skit about her the little playmate that could sing.:P

when she hit it big time playboy ran a skit about her the little playmate that could sing.:P


I think Shania is more talented than you're giving her credit for. Her 1995 album was musically better than her 1997 album.

I think Shania is more talented than you're giving her credit for. Her 1995 album was musically better than her 1997 album.


Oh yeah, quite a good album. Catchy songs done right, if that makes sense.