I could not notice the difference between the '90s and '00s until 2004, and wasn't completely certain there was one until maybe the fall of 2005. However in retrospect it's pretty clear the '90s ended sometime in 2001, and it's actually a pretty sharp change.

Did a similar thing happen in the early '90s?

The cutting edge/cool stuff changed alot faster, but even as a kid, I still definitely noticed it. Nintendo was absolutely at its peak in, say 1988, but by even as early as the first part of '92, there'd be references to "Classic Nintendo Power" from 1987-89 or so. The Super NES also felt (for its time) VERY "90s" and I started thinking, Wow, I guess 1987 is starting to be a long time ago now.

It's really interesting/cool to me to read articles like that which were written "in the moment" and compare it with now. :)

I tended to listen to more pop music than metal/hard rock, so I didn't notice the changes as much, and I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to fashions, but I'd say by 1993 I could already tell it felt pretty "un-80s" when looked at in a present sense.

The cutting edge/cool stuff changed alot faster, but even as a kid, I still definitely noticed it. Nintendo was absolutely at its peak in, say 1988, but by even as early as the first part of '92, there'd be references to "Classic Nintendo Power" from 1987-89 or so. The Super NES also felt (for its time) VERY "90s" and I started thinking, Wow, I guess 1987 is starting to be a long time ago now.

It's really interesting/cool to me to read articles like that which were written "in the moment" and compare it with now. :)

I tended to listen to more pop music than metal/hard rock, so I didn't notice the changes as much, and I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to fashions, but I'd say by 1993 I could already tell it felt pretty "un-80s" when looked at in a present sense.


When would you say the '90s became more like 2006 than 1987? I'd say about 1994.

When would you say the '90s became more like 2006 than 1987? I'd say about 1994.


1994 is definitely a "changing" year (much like 1992 and 1997 were), so I'd say that's about right. Hell, 1994-mid 1997 is kind of its own era. '97 is WAY more like '06 than it it like '87, but even '95 and '96 could flip either way.

1994 is definitely a "changing" year (much like 1992 and 1997 were), so I'd say that's about right. Hell, 1994-mid 1997 is kind of its own era. '97 is WAY more like '06 than it it like '87, but even '95 and '96 could flip either way.


Would you say late 2004 was the first of the '00s that clearly not the '90s?

1994 is definitely a "changing" year (much like 1992 and 1997 were), so I'd say that's about right. Hell, 1994-mid 1997 is kind of its own era. '97 is WAY more like '06 than it it like '87, but even '95 and '96 could flip either way.


1993 was also a changing year, because of Clinton.

Would you say late 2004 was the first of the '00s that clearly not the '90s?


Somewhat, as it seemed pop culture was getting more exciting/different for a few months (before somewhat reverting back to what I'd call an "updated 2002" style now). I wouldn't say things were noticeably "not '90s" until late '05 or perhaps even earlier this year.

I think as more and more '90s shows have their Series Finales, that pushes it more away too (like Friends kept it still "in our daily lives" until Spring '04, etc).

Somewhat, as it seemed pop culture was getting more exciting/different for a few months (before somewhat reverting back to what I'd call an "updated 2002" style now). I wouldn't say things were noticeably "not '90s" until late '05 or perhaps even earlier this year.

I think as more and more '90s shows have their Series Finales, that pushes it more away too (like Friends kept it still "in our daily lives" until Spring '04, etc).


It seems like since 1997 a little bit of the '90s has gone away every year (for instance I'm pretty sad that "7th Heaven" is over, even though I've never watched it).  I would say the beginning of 2006 is when the '90s really went away altogether.  This year seems kind of different.

It seems like since 1997 a little bit of the '90s has gone away every year (for instance I'm pretty sad that "7th Heaven" is over, even though I've never watched it).  I would say the beginning of 2006 is when the '90s really went away altogether.  This year seems kind of different.


Yeah I never watched it much either, but just its mere presence was sort of comforting in its own way. Sort of, let's say, a cabinet in your house that you never use, but if you move, you'll think, Man, that cabinet at the old place was actually pretty cool!

I'll agree though, 1997-05 was a very slow "loss" of the '90s. Even though it was so gradual, it's pretty noticeable now. I was thinking about how, if I were time machined back to 1999 for a day, would I notice a difference. At first I thought I would not (or it'd be so subtle it would slip by me), but I think I would. Not a jump and scream "Oh my God, what freakin' happened here!" difference, but like, "Wait, why does this computer look so slow and bulky! And, what's with this dial up!" ;D

I actually think I first noticed the difference from the Y2K era around 2002, when '80s nostalgia started happening and being in the press alot, along with the new kind of indie rock. But it became really noticeable that this was a new decade for me in the middle of 2003, with the appearance of glam rap, digital cable, broadband, omnipresent high-tech cellphones, the iPod, and the whole emo/hipster culture, and lots of new fashions. 2002 was still sort of Y2Kish, with the nu metal as a big force and presence of stuff like Avril Lavigne and the goth subculture.

I think the middle of 1998 was when the "loss" of the '90s really became apparent, after Seinfeld was cancelled, though the beginning of 2006 seems to be when the Y2K era and the casual, laid-back, grunge/coffee '90s feel is gone for the hectic '00s. I think if I were time machined back to 1999 for a day, when I was like in 3rd-4th grade, I would notice some differences. For one, people did dress differently (very, very normally), teenagers and little kids didn't have cell phones, hip-hop culture was less omnipresent, you saw next to no flat-screen TVs and no mp3 players, cassette tapes were still in stores, etc. It's not a huge difference, but the Y2K era, like mid 1998 to mid 2001, is noticeably different, somehow.

I actually think I first noticed the difference from the Y2K era around 2002, when '80s nostalgia started happening and being in the press alot, along with the new kind of indie rock. But it became really noticeable that this was a new decade for me in the middle of 2003, with the appearance of glam rap, digital cable, broadband, omnipresent high-tech cellphones, the iPod, and the whole emo/hipster culture, and lots of new fashions. 2002 was still sort of Y2Kish, with the nu metal as a big force and presence of stuff like Avril Lavigne and the goth subculture.

I think the middle of 1998 was when the "loss" of the '90s really became apparent, after Seinfeld was cancelled, though the beginning of 2006 seems to be when the Y2K era and the casual, laid-back, grunge/coffee '90s feel is gone for the hectic '00s. I think if I were time machined back to 1999 for a day, when I was like in 3rd-4th grade, I would notice some differences. For one, people did dress differently (very, very normally), teenagers and little kids didn't have cell phones, hip-hop culture was less omnipresent, you saw next to no flat-screen TVs and no mp3 players, cassette tapes were still in stores, etc. It's not a huge difference, but the Y2K era, like mid 1998 to mid 2001, is noticeably different, somehow.


Yeah, I didn't notice it so much at the time, but alot seemed to be "born" in 2003 and really blew up in '04.

Because I'm old school and still like buying 'em, I know 2002 was the last year where cassettes were still "majorly" sold in stores (aside from bargain bin stuff, which is still around to a limited extent). So yeah, you could argue the Y2K era is sort of mid 1998-mid 2002.

Yeah, I didn't notice it so much at the time, but alot seemed to be "born" in 2003 and really blew up in '04.

Because I'm old school and still like buying 'em, I know 2002 was the last year where cassettes were still "majorly" sold in stores (aside from bargain bin stuff, which is still around to a limited extent). So yeah, you could argue the Y2K era is sort of mid 1998-mid 2002.


The Y2K era had a very shiny, effortless feel to it that isn't either fully '90s or '00s, and seems alot its own. Like it sort of had a fevery summer feel to it, the whole time, very prosperous and happy while at the same time sort of full of thick clouds forming ahead that nobody cared about. I think it was really ending in the summer of 2001, though it wasn't fully complete even then. And in an extended sense, until spring 2003 it wasn't over fully.

It seemed sudden to me. There was a politico-cultural sea change when Bush began his term. Not to wax too political here, but Bush promised "a kinder gentler nation." We got just the opposite. It all has to do with the vicious political strategies of the rightwing. This would be a subject for the other side of the board. See David Brock's book Blinded By The Right.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=15522

The sudden change in pop culture is more personally subjective. I lost interest in pop music as soon as Grunge and Hip-Hop took over the scene, 1989-1990. Grunge had been below the MTV radar in the Northwest for years. Hip-hop was certainly popular before 1989, but that was the year it started to overwhelm the pop culture.

The Y2K era had a very shiny, effortless feel to it that isn't either fully '90s or '00s, and seems alot its own. Like it sort of had a fevery summer feel to it, the whole time, very prosperous and happy while at the same time sort of full of thick clouds forming ahead that nobody cared about. I think it was really ending in the summer of 2001, though it wasn't fully complete even then. And in an extended sense, until spring 2003 it wasn't over fully.


Do you think the War On Terror, and from a pop culture stance, the glam rap/emo/pop punk stuff sort of sealed the "thick clouds" of the current era? I know exactly what you mean, and I think it sort of did too.

In early 2003, the late '90s still seemed like yesterday. Not that 1999 was that different, but it still seemed "old school" in the sense that cheesy stuff (i.e. Pokemon, boy bands) was still very popular, as was controversy just for being controversial (i.e. watching Jerry Springer was "cool", now it's still semipopular but just kinda "around").

Mid 03-now feels "darker" if you know what I mean.

Do you think the War On Terror, and from a pop culture stance, the glam rap/emo/pop punk stuff sort of sealed the "thick clouds" of the current era? I know exactly what you mean, and I think it sort of did too.

In early 2003, the late '90s still seemed like yesterday. Not that 1999 was that different, but it still seemed "old school" in the sense that cheesy stuff (i.e. Pokemon, boy bands) was still very popular, as was controversy just for being controversial (i.e. watching Jerry Springer was "cool", now it's still semipopular but just kinda "around").

Mid 03-now feels "darker" if you know what I mean.


Yeah, even in early 2003 the late '90s were very much yesterday, and the late '90s sense of cool was still there for your average suburban teen. Like the whole orientation of "cool", if you know what I mean. Yes, I do think it sealed the thick clouds, and so did the whole foolishly neglecting all the problems we have as people forgot about 9/11 and the recession and got into highly materialistic, escapist '00s culture.

Yeah, even in early 2003 the late '90s were very much yesterday, and the late '90s sense of cool was still there for your average suburban teen. Like the whole orientation of "cool", if you know what I mean. Yes, I do think it sealed the thick clouds, and so did the whole foolishly neglecting all the problems we have as people forgot about 9/11 and the recession and got into highly materialistic, escapist '00s culture.


True, it seemed 9/11 and patrotism was on everyone's mind from late 01-early '03. It's almost like "back to normal in a more excessive way" since mid '03. Hell, I think 2000 to 2006 probably had more technological changes than 1994 to 2000 (even if not as much pop culturally) -- the Ipod, cameraphones, etc -- which is sort of materialistic if you think about it.

True, it seemed 9/11 and patrotism was on everyone's mind from late 01-early '03. It's almost like "back to normal in a more excessive way" since mid '03. Hell, I think 2000 to 2006 probably had more technological changes than 1994 to 2000 (even if not as much pop culturally) -- the Ipod, cameraphones, etc -- which is sort of materialistic if you think about it.


Yeah, people've been deliberately totally ignoring all the stress and fear of the current era like good Americans are supposed to do-buy! People've been focusing on building and buying bigger houses, buying iPods and other tech toys and toyish tech services (i.e. digital cable, Netflix), and getting into the whole Paris Hilton/50 Cent glam rap club culture, and the in its own way absurd hipster/Urban Outfitters sort of culture since then. But how stressed out and overextended we are in the '00s is apparent under the surface, in the people melodramatically running around and having breakdowns on shows like Desperate Housewives and The O.C. and the trials and tribulations of reality TV. Its like people are getting into things like glam rap culture and the iPod culture and hipster culture as a way of forgetting the hollowness left by 9/11.

Yeah, I didn't notice it so much at the time, but alot seemed to be "born" in 2003 and really blew up in '04.

Because I'm old school and still like buying 'em, I know 2002 was the last year where cassettes were still "majorly" sold in stores (aside from bargain bin stuff, which is still around to a limited extent). So yeah, you could argue the Y2K era is sort of mid 1998-mid 2002.


There were a few Y2K era leftovers in early 2002, though really I think the Y2K era was pretty much all gone by probably about mid 2001. NSYNC was still around in early '02, but by late 2002 they were cheesy and passe. Enrique Iglesias was big in 02 as well. A few Y2K elements were still around, but the Y2K enviroment and feel was definitely gone. December 1998-very early 2001 is about the entire true Y2K era.

There were a few Y2K era leftovers in early 2002, though really I think the Y2K era was pretty much all gone by probably about mid 2001. NSYNC was still around in early '02, but by late 2002 they were cheesy and passe. Enrique Iglesias was big in 02 as well. A few Y2K elements were still around, but the Y2K enviroment and feel was definitely gone. December 1998-very early 2001 is about the entire true Y2K era.


I think the Y2K, neo-'90s era began like around June-September '98 with Windows '98 and Korn's Follow the Leader coming out, which respectively improved the internet and started a new age in rock. Also, OFF went downhill then and Seinfeld was gone. 2000-2001 was just a dull year culturally, as I remember it, honestly...it was very, dirt dull and depressing. Like it felt like the absolute tail-end of Y2K, sort of, if you know what I mean, the "culturally impoverished" sort of end of it, with the depressing '00 election, the recession, reality TV, and stuff like Crazy Town.

I think the Y2K, neo-'90s era began like around June-September '98 with Windows '98 and Korn's Follow the Leader coming out, which respectively improved the internet and started a new age in rock. Also, OFF went downhill then and Seinfeld was gone. 2000-2001 was just a dull year culturally, as I remember it, honestly...it was very, dirt dull and depressing. Like it felt like the absolute tail-end of Y2K, sort of, if you know what I mean, the "culturally impoverished" sort of end of it, with the depressing '00 election, the recession, reality TV, and stuff like Crazy Town.


Yeah, late 2000-mid 2001 was sort of like a "washed out" 1998ish era. At least then, the boy bands had somewhat catchy stuff, but honestly, it seemed played out even by the first two thirds of 2001, and rap/metal was pretty generic.

Yeah, late 2000-mid 2001 was sort of like a "washed out" 1998ish era. At least then, the boy bands had somewhat catchy stuff, but honestly, it seemed played out even by the first two thirds of 2001, and rap/metal was pretty generic.


Yeah, that stuff got old quick, and I think nu metal was nearing its deathbed until the new generation of more early '00sy nu metal like Linkin Park and SOAD came out in late '01 in a big way, and "revised" teen pop like Pink and Avril Lavigne came out. Though they were really disguised Y2K things, they were a bit more interesting than 00-01, which was just about the dullest year of the past ten.

What do people think of my "literary"-style analysis of the '00s, culturally?

Yeah, late 2000-mid 2001 was sort of like a "washed out" 1998ish era. At least then, the boy bands had somewhat catchy stuff, but honestly, it seemed played out even by the first two thirds of 2001, and rap/metal was pretty generic.


Yeah I think the boy bands already seemed old and played out by mid 2001, it was clear to me that the Y2K era was over by the Fall of 2001 not just because of 9/11 but because the boy bands and bubblegum pop stuff were definitely on the way out.

Yeah, that stuff got old quick, and I think nu metal was nearing its deathbed until the new generation of more early '00sy nu metal like Linkin Park and SOAD came out in late '01 in a big way, and "revised" teen pop like Pink and Avril Lavigne came out. Though they were really disguised Y2K things, they were a bit more interesting than 00-01, which was just about the dullest year of the past ten.

What do people think of my "literary"-style analysis of the '00s, culturally?


Pink was very big in 2000 too, but then her music sounded very Y2Kish, while her late 01-2002 stuff from Mizzundaztood sounds very early '00s.

Yeah, that stuff got old quick, and I think nu metal was nearing its deathbed until the new generation of more early '00sy nu metal like Linkin Park and SOAD came out in late '01 in a big way, and "revised" teen pop like Pink and Avril Lavigne came out. Though they were really disguised Y2K things, they were a bit more interesting than 00-01, which was just about the dullest year of the past ten.

What do people think of my "literary"-style analysis of the '00s, culturally?


It was always funny/ironic to me how in 2002-03, Avril was always calling herself the "anti Britney". ;) While even though musically speaking, it's a little less bubblegum poppy, basically it's not that different at all. Britney, NSync, etc are like "real 1999" stuff, while she's more "revised 1999" if you know what I mean.

It was always funny/ironic to me how in 2002-03, Avril was always calling herself the "anti Britney". ;) While even though musically speaking, it's a little less bubblegum poppy, basically it's not that different at all. Britney, NSync, etc are like "real 1999" stuff, while she's more "revised 1999" if you know what I mean.


BTW...Marty, you have exactly 100x your karma...

I remember that at the time and thinking how it was basically the same thing. That song ("Complicated") was huge if you were 12 in 2002. And I hated it, mostly for being so damn catchy.

What do you think of my previous analysis of what's lurking under the '00s?

BTW...Marty, you have exactly 100x your karma...

I remember that at the time and thinking how it was basically the same thing. That song ("Complicated") was huge if you were 12 in 2002. And I hated it, mostly for being so damn catchy.

What do you think of my previous analysis of what's lurking under the '00s?


Thanks. :) BTW, which post exactly? I can't find anything you've said on the '00s that I disagreed with, or only very slightly.

Oh, I thought "Complicated" was annoying when it came out - partly because we were still kinda in the aftermath of the boyband/teenpop era, so it felt "too close", and because it was so overplayed (actually that's an understatement ;) ). However, I've come to like it in the last year or so, since it still seems like a slight connection to the '90s we don't have anymore.

Thanks. :) BTW, which post exactly? I can't find anything you've said on the '00s that I disagreed with, or only very slightly.

Oh, I thought "Complicated" was annoying when it came out - partly because we were still kinda in the aftermath of the boyband/teenpop era, so it felt "too close", and because it was so overplayed (actually that's an understatement ;) ). However, I've come to like it in the last year or so, since it still seems like a slight connection to the '90s we don't have anymore.


At the time I thought Avril was something new and cool and I liked it. I still like some of her music even though it's stupid, lol.

At the time I thought Avril was something new and cool and I liked it. I still like some of her music even though it's stupid, lol.


Yeah, it's weird because I actually liked her at very first when I saw one of the videos on VH1. I also like some of the songs that weren't hits (i.e. "My World" and "Nobody's Fool") but the big 3 (Complicated, I'm With You and Sk8er Boi) got worn out pretty fast. ;D

It seems like since 1997 a little bit of the '90s has gone away every year (for instance I'm pretty sad that "7th Heaven" is over, even though I've never watched it).  I would say the beginning of 2006 is when the '90s really went away altogether.  This year seems kind of different.


You've never seen 7th Heaven?  I used to have to sit through that show because my sister's wanted to watch it and we only had one TV back then. And I don't miss it at all.

Thanks. :) BTW, which post exactly? I can't find anything you've said on the '00s that I disagreed with, or only very slightly.

Oh, I thought "Complicated" was annoying when it came out - partly because we were still kinda in the aftermath of the boyband/teenpop era, so it felt "too close", and because it was so overplayed (actually that's an understatement ;) ). However, I've come to like it in the last year or so, since it still seems like a slight connection to the '90s we don't have anymore.


Reply #16, actually  :).

As for the '80s-'90s transition, I once asked my 1973-born Spanish teacher this and she said it stopped really feeling like it was the '80s around 1988-1989 or so, and totally stopped feeling like the '80s around 1991-1992, which just had a connection to the '90ish period aroud a year or two before but not the late '80s. I think it sort of started the transition even in 1986, probably, but it wasn't not the '80s anymore totally until the middle of 1991. She also said most of the '80s things we know and love, something I've always known, were "a big three years! whoa, a big three years" between early 1983 and early 1986 or so.

Reply #16, actually  :).

As for the '80s-'90s transition, I once asked my 1973-born Spanish teacher this and she said it stopped really feeling like it was the '80s around 1988-1989 or so, and totally stopped feeling like the '80s around 1991-1992, which just had a connection to the '90ish period aroud a year or two before but not the late '80s. I think it sort of started the transition even in 1986, probably, but it wasn't not the '80s anymore totally until the middle of 1991. She also said most of the '80s things we know and love, something I've always known, were "a big three years! whoa, a big three years" between early 1983 and early 1986 or so.


Of course peak 80s were 1983-86, but I remember the early 90s being very 80ish. Like I think the 'real' 90s are about from 1994-1997.

Of course peak 80s were 1983-86, but I remember the early 90s being very 80ish. Like I think the 'real' 90s are about from 1994-1997.


I think the similarity more comes from the technology.

I think the similarity more comes from the technology.


And fashion. As I've said the hot fashions circa 1990-1993 maybe even 1994 were still 80s-esque.

And fashion. As I've said the hot fashions circa 1990-1993 maybe even 1994 were still 80s-esque.


Well, that depends. They were '80s-influenced, but were more '90s with all the neon, longer hair, etc.

Well, that depends. They were '80s-influenced, but were more '90s with all the neon, longer hair, etc.


Fashion-wise, the Grunge look wasn't much different to 80s fashion. Except it was a bit rougher with more flannel shirts, torn jeans. But the long hair, T-shirts, sneakers were all carbon-copy late 80s.

Fashion-wise, the Grunge look wasn't much different to 80s fashion. Except it was a bit rougher with more flannel shirts, torn jeans. But the long hair, T-shirts, sneakers were all carbon-copy late 80s.


I think people think fashion changes more than it really does. Like 1978-1984 fashion wasn't all that different if you didn't care about fashion. And t-shirts and sneakers? I think the whole plain, unadorned grunge-y look of that is '90s. That, and those are always around.