I think the main difference between say 1984 and 1991, even 1988 is that the 1988-1991 period was somewhat "blacker." For example, stuff like Whitney Houston, Boyz II Men, and true hip-hop and freestyle were becoming popular around 1988. The 1982-1987 period in some ways was PAINFULLY white suburban John Hughes teenager. Maybe it had something to do with having very white, old, suburban presidents like Reagan and Bush Sr. around, who had a very '50s view of America to an extent that lent itself well to the '80s. I also think the '10s will be very dominated by white music but give way to a new kind of black music, like the '50s and '80s did. Maybe part of it was a backlash against the extremely black '70s. The '50s-early '60s and '80s-early '90s together are probably the most suburban, whitest periods. The '20s-'40s period was black compared to the '50s, ultimately. I also think traditional black music hit a standstill in the early '80s after disco and funk died, after the blues, doo-wop, trad soul (a la Otis Redding) did. The 1986ish period saw the development of R&B (Whitney Houston typifies this) and rap into black cultural phenomenons.

Do you think there's credence to saying the '80s was the absolute whitest, most suburban decade? The '60s '70s were very black with funk, soul, and disco, but the only black stars in the '80s were heavily sanitized, like Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston, or totally unique, like Prince. There were just as many suburbanites in the '90s and '00s as '80s, but the white suburban teen then had a total control over culture. Maybe it had something to do with Reagan.

What are your opinions as to why mainstream early-mid '80s culture was so white and suburban? My theories include:

-'70s backlash.
-The whole Reagan ideology.
-Black mainstream culture at standstill due to fall of soul, disco, and funk before rap and R&B became mainstream.
-Economic state of nation in '80s.

I definitely agree. The '80s were very white.

But why is the question?

I think it's because of the 1970s backlash and  the conservatism.  Most conservatives are white; conservatives ruled the '80s, although the punk/new wave movement and '80s subcultures seem rather liberal.

stuff like Whitney Houston, Boyz II Men, and true hip-hop and freestyle were becoming popular around 1988.

Boyz II Men didn't start to have hits until 1991

I think it's because of the 1970s backlash and  the conservatism.  Most conservatives are white; conservatives ruled the '80s, although the punk/new wave movement and '80s subcultures seem rather liberal.



Yeah, the Reagan/conservative feel of the decade probably had alot to do with it. As did the fact that black music as a whole was at a standstill by the beginning of the 80's as others have said.

I don't think it was "blacker", it was more of different type of "black"... a more ghetto black. The early 80s were also dominated by Michael Jackson, Lionel Richie, Tina Turner, Stevie Wonder, Luther, Billy Ocean, Janet Jackson etc. RnB Soul was also taking off in the early 80s.

Most of the "black" music like the Jacksons and Lionel Richie was white, Motown-influenced music with black influences, but in some ways much less black than say the Supremes. I've heard commonly that even black people were listening to white music for awhile in the early-mid '80s before rap and really commercially successful R&B like Whitney Houston became mainstream c. 1986. There was no really overground black music then; it was at a standstill when rap was still a fairly isolated underground movement and soul, funk, disco were dying.

I think it's because of the 1970s backlash and  the conservatism.  Most conservatives are white; conservatives ruled the '80s, although the punk/new wave movement and '80s subcultures seem rather liberal.


But we're talking about the music industry here. Since when have they been influenced by the government? I think it's the opposite...during Conservative governments there tends to be a liberal backlash if anything, as these are often the periods of greatest political turmoil. But I don't know much about American politics at all, I guess in the United States politics might have a much greater effect on society than here.

But we're talking about the music industry here. Since when have they been influenced by the government? I think it's the opposite...during Conservative governments there tends to be a liberal backlash if anything, as these are often the periods of greatest political turmoil. But I don't know much about American politics at all, I guess in the United States politics might have a much greater effect on society than here.


That's true ... it generally is influenced by the opposite.  Explaining the wacky, liberal fashion of the '80s hair metallers and new wavers. 

That's true ... it generally is influenced by the opposite.  Explaining the wacky, liberal fashion of the '80s hair metallers and new wavers. 


Maybe superficially. But the essence of commercial new wave and hair metal was oh-so-Reaganite.

Maybe superficially. But the essence of commercial new wave and hair metal was oh-so-Reaganite.


That's true.  Same with the glam rap of the '00s.

I don't think it was "blacker", it was more of different type of "black"... a more ghetto black. The early 80s were also dominated by Michael Jackson, Lionel Richie, Tina Turner, Stevie Wonder, Luther, Billy Ocean, Janet Jackson etc. RnB Soul was also taking off in the early 80s.


I notice in the late 80's, the R&B / Soul artists were taking off in the UK with artists like: Will Downing, Donna Allen, Five Star, Joyce Simms, The Paradenas, Alexander O'Neal ... and apart from Alexander O'Neal, not alot of that saw big chart action in North America  :\'(

But we're talking about the music industry here. Since when have they been influenced by the government? I think it's the opposite...during Conservative governments there tends to be a liberal backlash if anything, as these are often the periods of greatest political turmoil. But I don't know much about American politics at all, I guess in the United States politics might have a much greater effect on society than here.


True - that was part of the appeal of Elvis, rock and roll, and teen rebellion in general back in the '50s. The times were so conservative that it was like a backlash against it. Guys like Elvis and James Dean were definitely popular in the '50s, but were looked at more as rebels. Their fanbase was pretty much, like 14-21 year olds or so. Whereas, I know there were kids who dug The Beatles and other '60s culture.

Pop culture didn't really start to break out among the masses (i.e. kids, older people, more conservative types) until 1964 when the Beatles became a household name, and didn't become fully accepted until, say 1972ish.

P.S. In a way, you could almost argue the '20s were more "liberal" than the '50s, not counting exclusively teen oriented culture.

Most of the "black" music like the Jacksons and Lionel Richie was white, Motown-influenced music with black influences, but in some ways much less black than say the Supremes. I've heard commonly that even black people were listening to white music for awhile in the early-mid '80s before rap and really commercially successful R&B like Whitney Houston became mainstream c. 1986. There was no really overground black music then; it was at a standstill when rap was still a fairly isolated underground movement and soul, funk, disco were dying.


Also, Lionel Richie in particular, had more of a white audience than a black audience. If we don't take his race into account and just listen to the songs, it probably sounds more like Toto than The Surpremes (as mentioned).

However, on the other side of it, perhaps it was stuff like that (and, of course Thriller ;) ) that ultimately made "black" music (i.e. gangsta rap) so acceptable/popular/cool among white suburban teens in the '90s/00s.

Also, Lionel Richie in particular, had more of a white audience than a black audience. If we don't take his race into account and just listen to the songs, it probably sounds more like Toto than The Surpremes (as mentioned).

However, on the other side of it, perhaps it was stuff like that (and, of course Thriller ;) ) that ultimately made "black" music (i.e. gangsta rap) so acceptable/popular/cool among white suburban teens in the '90s/00s.


Black music was always acceptable/popular/cool among white suburban teens no matter what the decade. It was always the parents or older generations who were against it b/c they had a large broom up their azzes.

From the very beginning black music was (and still is, as it will always be) instrumental in white culture. One example: Elvis. Elvis was accepted b/c he appeared in "whiteface" as he did black music. Rock and roll is the baby of black culture. It was born from it. At the time, it was considered, race music, colored music, jungle music (I can go on with the titles many of which are worse). When he did it, they accepted it more (which is unfortunate and is happening again with Eminem).

Also, Lionel Richie in particular, had more of a white audience than a black audience. If we don't take his race into account and just listen to the songs, it probably sounds more like Toto than The Surpremes (as mentioned).

However, on the other side of it, perhaps it was stuff like that (and, of course Thriller ;) ) that ultimately made "black" music (i.e. gangsta rap) so acceptable/popular/cool among white suburban teens in the '90s/00s.


Maybe...but I also think it was the attitudes of the '60s/'70s teens who fathered the kids of the '90s/'00s...and black culture was "it" in the '70s and very accepted.

^^Oh, that's true, I forgot about that. I think Elvis himself was a fan of R&B/soul/dance music of the early '50s (which ultimately inspired his own sound), so even if he was the first household name "rocker", he wasn't necesarilly the first to do that.

I guess the Lionel Richie-ish comparison was more among the general population. Since "white"/middle class/suburban people really embraced that, it made it easier for it to happen in the '90s with white teens digging rap.

P.S. Did some parents in the '80s really have anything against guys like Lionel, Prince and MJ? That seems like something the older generation could've somewhat enjoyed.

^^Oh, that's true, I forgot about that. I think Elvis himself was a fan of R&B/soul/dance music of the early '50s (which ultimately inspired his own sound), so even if he was the first household name "rocker", he wasn't necesarilly the first to do that.

I guess the Lionel Richie-ish comparison was more among the general population. Since "white"/middle class/suburban people really embraced that, it made it easier for it to happen in the '90s with white teens digging rap.

P.S. Did some parents in the '80s really have anything against guys like Lionel, Prince and MJ? That seems like something the older generation could've somewhat enjoyed.


I think a deciding factor of the older generation accepting it was the genre of music as much of the race of the artist. For instance, old time crooners like Nat King Cole or Sammy Davis Jnr were fairly well equated with white performers like Sinatra, whereas many parents of the previous generation are just as wary of Eminem as they were of N.W.A. or Public Enemy.

I think a deciding factor of the older generation accepting it was the genre of music as much of the race of the artist. For instance, old time crooners like Nat King Cole or Sammy Davis Jnr were fairly well equated with white performers like Sinatra, whereas many parents of the previous generation are just as wary of Eminem as they were of N.W.A. or Public Enemy.


I think it's still somewhat the genre of music.

I think the main difference between say 1984 and 1991, even 1988 is that the 1988-1991 period was somewhat "blacker." For example, stuff like Whitney Houston, Boyz II Men, and true hip-hop and freestyle were becoming popular around 1988. The 1982-1987 period in some ways was PAINFULLY white suburban John Hughes teenager. Maybe it had something to do with having very white, old, suburban presidents like Reagan and Bush Sr. around, who had a very '50s view of America to an extent that lent itself well to the '80s. I also think the '10s will be very dominated by white music but give way to a new kind of black music, like the '50s and '80s did. Maybe part of it was a backlash against the extremely black '70s. The '50s-early '60s and '80s-early '90s together are probably the most suburban, whitest periods. The '20s-'40s period was black compared to the '50s, ultimately. I also think traditional black music hit a standstill in the early '80s after disco and funk died, after the blues, doo-wop, trad soul (a la Otis Redding) did. The 1986ish period saw the development of R&B (Whitney Houston typifies this) and rap into black cultural phenomenons.

Do you think there's credence to saying the '80s was the absolute whitest, most suburban decade? The '60s '70s were very black with funk, soul, and disco, but the only black stars in the '80s were heavily sanitized, like Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston, or totally unique, like Prince. There were just as many suburbanites in the '90s and '00s as '80s, but the white suburban teen then had a total control over culture. Maybe it had something to do with Reagan.

What are your opinions as to why mainstream early-mid '80s culture was so white and suburban? My theories include:

-'70s backlash.
-The whole Reagan ideology.
-Black mainstream culture at standstill due to fall of soul, disco, and funk before rap and R&B became mainstream.
-Economic state of nation in '80s.


In a general sense, yes I do agree with what you are saying.  This is going to be a difficult topic for many people.  The early and mid 80s did have a more suburban White Anglo feel to it.  As White as Matthew Perry, maybey even Whiter then him.  This did change in the late 80s though.  Yes, I've always felt that way about the John Hughes movies.  Most of the John Hughes films have a strong upper middle class White feel to it.  Sixteen Candles is likely the greatest offender, especially with it's attitude toward the Asian exchange student Long Duc Dong.  Whenever a non-White showed up in many John Hughes films from the early and mid 80s, they were usually a caricature of some kind.  I wasn't sure if Hughes was being racist, unintentionally racist or unintentionally ignorant, or if he was actually lampooning the fact that his films are so White dominated.  Remember when Rusty (Anthony Michael Hall) wondered if the Black guys ripping off the family hub caps knew The Commodores?  Was he just being innocently fun and lampooning his own films for being so White?  Or was he being racist?  It's hard to tell. Ferris Bueller's Day Off is the least offender, probably because it's easier to get engrossed into the fun story that you don't pay attention to things like this, and there are no offensive non-White characters in this film (well the guys who take a joy ride in Cameron's car are Black and Hispanic, but they don't come across as stereotypes)...but even with this film you can still pick some of it up.  They were making these films for a primary White Anglo audience, so I wondered if they were kidding the uneasy feelings some people have.  If you look at most teen films of the '00s, it's still made for a primary White audience.  The difference is that there are a few more selections with Black characters.  But what about Asians?  Harold and Kumar Go to WhiteCastle was a historic first Asian teen comedy for America.    

Often I've felt that the harsh hatred for the 90s were half way because it became more dominated by rap and R&B.  People don't come out and say (well sometimes they do), but you can pick it up with the code words they use. 

On the flip side, The Cosby Show was the most popular sitcom in America during the 1980s, but they were all race neutral characters that could be easily accepted by mainstream White America.  It is unlikely that that the cast of Martin would have had that same level of blockbuster success, either then or now.  There was also an explosion of White artists and groups during the early-mid 80s. 

In a general sense, yes I do agree with what you are saying.  This is going to be a difficult topic for many people.  The early and mid 80s did have a more suburban White Anglo feel to it.  As White as Matthew Perry, maybey even Whiter then him.  This did change in the late 80s though.  Yes, I've always felt that way about the John Hughes movies.  Most of the John Hughes films have a strong upper middle class White feel to it.  Sixteen Candles is likely the greatest offender, especially with it's attitude toward the Asian exchange student Long Duc Dong.  Whenever a non-White showed up in many John Hughes films from the early and mid 80s, they were usually a caricature of some kind.  I wasn't sure if Hughes was being racist, unintentionally racist or unintentionally ignorant, or if he was actually lampooning the fact that his films are so White dominated.  Remember when Rusty (Anthony Michael Hall) wondered if the Black guys ripping off the family hub caps knew The Commodores?  Was he just being innocently fun and lampooning his own films for being so White?  Or was he being racist?  It's hard to tell. Ferris Bueller's Day Off is the least offender, probably because it's easier to get engrossed into the fun story that you don't pay attention to things like this, and there are no offensive non-White characters in this film (well the guys who take a joy ride in Cameron's car are Black and Hispanic, but they don't come across as stereotypes)...but even with this film you can still pick some of it up.  They were making these films for a primary White Anglo audience, so I wondered if they were kidding the uneasy feelings some people have.  If you look at most teen films of the '00s, it's still made for a primary White audience.  The difference is that there are a few more selections with Black characters.  But what about Asians?  Harold and Kumar Go to WhiteCastle was a historic first Asian teen comedy for America.   

Often I've felt that the harsh hatred for the 90s were half way because it became more dominated by rap and R&B.  People don't come out and say (well sometimes they do), but you can pick it up with the code words they use. 

On the flip side, The Cosby Show was the most popular sitcom in America during the 1980s, but they were all race neutral characters that could be easily accepted by mainstream White America.  It is unlikely that that the cast of Martin would have had that same level of blockbuster success, either then or now.  There was also an explosion of White artists and groups during the early-mid 80s. 


Yeah, the early-mid '80s were a "white music explosion", much the same way the late '80s-mid '90s were a "black music explosion" and arguably the mid '00s saw another "white music explosion" with the popularization of emo and indie rock. The sense I get of the '80s in terms of race relations is that it was fairly tense, leading up to the 1992 Rodney King riots. While the '70s were about black power, the early-mid '80s seemed to all be about becoming upwardly mobile and white like The Cosby Show, and not about retaining as much "African identity." I think the mainstream black music community was in a jam with the reaction to disco (a black genre), the death of the black power movement in the early '80s, and Reagan's very white suburban attitudes.

Now, teen movies are still largely white, but not as lily-white as John Hughes movies...they at least make an effort to include some Asians. Culture in the '80s, particularly teen culture, wanted to return to the days of the '50s and early '60s, with proms, leather jackets, almost exclusive/idealistic suburbs, and "uncool" and out-of-touch parents. Though the '80s were obviously more sexual, mainstream America wanted to take a breather from the revolution of the '60s and '70s...and the way they did this was creating more "white culture." Admittedly, there was alot of white culture in the '70s (pop like the Captain and Tenille, Lynyrd Skynyrd and southern rock, prog rock, singer-songwriters), but it was waaay "funkier" and blacker than '80s culture. Black music was the really dominant cultural standard of the '70s, with funk, '70s soul, and disco.

Michael Jackson was black, but it was Motown-inspired pop and he himself wasn't "very black." Prince was the blackest artist popular, and alot of Madonna's stuff is pretty '60s black if you get past the pictures (her first single didn't have a picture of her on it to make people think she was black.) Maybe being black made MJ, Lionel Richie, and Prince cooler, but they weren't George Clinton or even Donna Summer.

I still think the reason that "militantly" black culture exploded in the late '80s and early '90s is that black culture was so repressed and unpopular in the early-mid '80s, and black people were almost seen as "insignificant", though nobody would've said that.

Often I've felt that the harsh hatred for the 90s were half way because it became more dominated by rap and R&B.  People don't come out and say (well sometimes they do), but you can pick it up with the code words they use. 



Based on the sheer permeation that hip hop has on society in the '00s, the '90s actually looks relatively non-hip hop compared to now.  Of course thats' only because while rap was huge in the '90s, it's everything in the '00s.

Based on the sheer permeation that hip hop has on society in the '00s, the '90s actually looks relatively non-hip hop compared to now.  Of course thats' only because while rap was huge in the '90s, it's everything in the '00s.


I feel like rap was more "urban" in the '90s, though. Now it seems like it's equally targeted towards and sanitized for white suburban teenagers.

I feel like rap was more "urban" in the '90s, though. Now it seems like it's equally targeted towards and sanitized for white suburban teenagers.


It was more aimed at blacks, for sure.  However I'm sure plenty of white kids liked it too.

It was more aimed at blacks, for sure.  However I'm sure plenty of white kids liked it too.


Plenty of white kids definitely liked it, but it wasn't as aimed at them. I think it was more common back in the '90s, from my memory, to see white people actually dressed like gangbangers. Now, rap is so "classy" and bling and much whiter, even for black people.

This is an interesting subject. You know I never thought to defined the 80s as the "White 80s" but I see some interesting points were made. On the music end, the 70s  ended on a "Disco Sucks" rally. So between 1980 and 1984 you felt the ripple effect. Many radio stations change their format so they didnt want to play a disco record and Mtv pretty much ushered in the New Wave sound and virtually ignored black artists. I believe many artists had make their music more palatable to mainstream audiences. As we know Micheal Jackson broke down the color barrier on MTV, but his music as well as a few other artists sounded less soulful. Tina Turner's "What's Love Got to do With It" had a soulful sound but everything she recorded afterwards was more rock-oriented.
The music was so Anglo that alot of Black artists had to sound more Anglo to get that crossover appeal.
Prince
Lionel Ritchie
Diana Ross
Whitney Houston
Jody Wadley
The Jets

As far as movies, its much more better in this generation than in the 80s. I think the only working actors of color back then was Rae Dawn Chong and Eddie Murphy. Of coarse by the the start of the 80s the blackexpoitation films were over and done. Hollywood  put out films that had an universal appeal. Your first car, Your first love, Your first heartbreak, Your first job, Problems in high school, Problems with your parents, and Losing your virginity. These are subjects everyone can relate to but Hollywood only catered to "Anglo" mainstream audiences and starred white actors

Regardless, I still appreciate the music of the 80s than the films.

Plenty of white kids definitely liked it, but it wasn't as aimed at them. I think it was more common back in the '90s, from my memory, to see white people actually dressed like gangbangers. Now, rap is so "classy" and bling and much whiter, even for black people.


Same thing with white 'plastic blues' or 'plastic soul.' Some people even blame Jerry Lee Lewis or even Janis Joplin for 'massacreing' or at best copying the old black blues greats. I wonder how those black musicians really felt about white 'taking over' their music, and bringing it to a predominantly white mainstream audience?

This is an interesting subject. You know I never thought to defined the 80s as the "White 80s" but I see some interesting points were made. On the music end, the 70s  ended on a "Disco Sucks" rally. So between 1980 and 1984 you felt the ripple effect. Many radio stations change their format so they didnt want to play a disco record and Mtv pretty much ushered in the New Wave sound and virtually ignored black artists. I believe many artists had make their music more palatable to mainstream audiences. As we know Micheal Jackson broke down the color barrier on MTV, but his music as well as a few other artists sounded less soulful. Tina Turner's "What's Love Got to do With It" had a soulful sound but everything she recorded afterwards was more rock-oriented.
The music was so Anglo that alot of Black artists had to sound more Anglo to get that crossover appeal.
Prince
Lionel Ritchie
Diana Ross
Whitney Houston
Jody Wadley
The Jets

As far as movies, its much more better in this generation than in the 80s. I think the only working actors of color back then was Rae Dawn Chong and Eddie Murphy. Of coarse by the the start of the 80s the blackexpoitation films were over and done. Hollywood  put out films that had an universal appeal. Your first car, Your first love, Your first heartbreak, Your first job, Problems in high school, Problems with your parents, and Losing your virginity. These are subjects everyone can relate to but Hollywood only catered to "Anglo" mainstream audiences and starred white actors

Regardless, I still appreciate the music of the 80s than the films.



Good point here about MTV making music whiter...with the inception of MTV, image mattered, and record companies were all of a sudden catering to the people who watched MTV (white, suburban, middle to upper middle-class teenagers of the early-mid 1980s.) MTV and the radio most definitely helped make music more "whitebread"...also, c. 1980, when the disco backlash occurred that benefited new wave, most black music was disco or funk and so it all got pushed off the airwaves in favor of blatantly "white" music. The late '80s, with MTV actually rotating more black artists and the increase in black pride with Spike Lee, the beginnings of hip-hop as the "black CNN", African pride fashion, and urban music increasing, saw the beginning of the "black music explosion."

Same thing with white 'plastic blues' or 'plastic soul.' Some people even blame Jerry Lee Lewis or even Janis Joplin for 'massacreing' or at best copying the old black blues greats. I wonder how those black musicians really felt about white 'taking over' their music, and bringing it to a predominantly white mainstream audience?


They were fine with it as long as the people gave proper credit (which was rare in American bands/musicians). However, English acts were most likely to credit black influences in their music.

They were fine with it as long as the people gave proper credit (which was rare in American bands/musicians). However, English acts were most likely to credit black influences in their music.


It's funny how the American audiences thought those same British groups invented a totally new, original style of music...

Now I do have to add that I always did think of the breakdancing, ghetto blaster scene of 1981/'82-'85 as a form of early hip hop.  Infact it was a form of hip hop that was very appealing to a lot of mainstream White America. 

New Edition and Run DMC had a pretty decent cross over appeal as well around the mid 80s, which set up Bobby Brown's huge success in the late 80s with his Don't Be Cruel album.

I don't see Lionel Richie, Whitney Houston, Prince or Michael Jackson as ever being "White".  That's pretty offensive to them I think to categorize them that way.  They were simply projecting a more race neutral feel, much like the actors/characters on The Cosby Show.  Nonethless, a sitcom about a Black family being the #1 rated show on American TV in 1984, a mere 15-16 years after the 1960s is nothing to trivialize...even if it did boast race neutral characters.  Be honest, EVEN TODAY, a WB oriented sitcom feautring African American characters that projected a more strong "Black" feel is highly unlikely to be the most popular TV show in America.  Race and ethnic relations in 80s America were still WAAAAY ahead of what was going on in the 1950s, 1960s and even a lot of the 70s.   

Now I do have to add that I always did think of the breakdancing, ghetto blaster scene of 1981/'82-'85 as a form of early hip hop.  Infact it was a form of hip hop that was very appealing to a lot of mainstream White America. 

New Edition and Run DMC had a pretty decent cross over appeal as well around the mid 80s, which set up Bobby Brown's huge success in the late 80s with his Don't Be Cruel album.

I don't see Lionel Richie, Whitney Houston, Prince or Michael Jackson as ever being "White".  That's pretty offensive to them I think to categorize them that way.  They were simply projecting a more race neutral feel, much like the actors/characters on The Cosby Show.  Nonethless, a sitcom about a Black family being the #1 rated show on American TV in 1984, a mere 15-16 years after the 1960s is nothing to trivialize...even if it did boast race neutral characters.  Be honest, EVEN TODAY, a WB oriented sitcom feautring African American characters that projected a more strong "Black" feel is highly unlikely to be the most popular TV show in America.  Race and ethnic relations in 80s America were still WAAAAY ahead of what was going on in the 1950s, 1960s and even a lot of the 70s. 


They weren't white, but they had to make more of an effort to appeal to mainstream audiences (except for maybe Prince) than they would have in the '70s. Race relations were certainly ahead of what was going on in the '50s, '60s, and '70s, but the Cosby Show was extremely race neutral. The whole point of the show was that they never referenced them being black, they just were. I think about 1985 or 1986, when the Cosby Show got really big, is when "black culture" sort of re-emerged, albeit in a very neutral way, with the success of Whitney Houston and the beginnings of mainstream hip-hop. For example, I've read that Prince sort of alienated his black audience beginning with Purple Rain in 1984, though that was an extremely influential album on "R&B." I think in some ways the re-emergence of African pride in the late '80s and that whole feeling of c. 1989 "African pride" resulted from the race neutrality of alot of music in the early-mid '80s, even if alot of mainstream, non-hip hop black music then was still very race neutral.

I very vaguely remember the Cosby Show, but I don't know exactly what you mean about 'race nuetral.' Does that mean it doesn't contain any 'black stereotypes' or stereotype 'black' communities? What about shows like the Fresh Prince of Bel Air or 'My Wife and Kids?' I would consider them pretty 'race nuetral as well.' The late 80s did indeed see a resurgence of 'Black Pride' perhaps not seen since the days of the Black Panthers (which dropped with the Assasination of Malcolm X in 65, but continued throughout the 70s), with well-known rap groups like N.W.A, Africa Bambaata, Post-Reggae, Del la Soul.etc with a great diversity of philosophies and beliefs.

I very vaguely remember the Cosby Show, but I don't know exactly what you mean about 'race nuetral.' Does that mean it doesn't contain any 'black stereotypes' or stereotype 'black' communities? What about shows like the Fresh Prince of Bel Air or 'My Wife and Kids?' I would consider them pretty 'race nuetral as well.'

Well yeah pretty much, you got it.  I can't remember where I read the term "race neutral", I think it was one of Toni Morrison's books, but it is much better description of certain African Americans who are blasted as "being White".  NBC's Bryant Gumbel is probably White in behavior, but Bill Cosby and The Cosby Show kids were not acting White, they just weren't exuding stereotypical "Blackness" and preaching about growing up in the hood. 


The late 80s did indeed see a resurgence of 'Black Pride' perhaps not seen since the days of the Black Panthers (which dropped with the Assasination of Malcolm X in 65, but continued throughout the 70s), with well-known rap groups like N.W.A, Africa Bambaata, Post-Reggae, Del la Soul.etc with a great diversity of philosophies and beliefs.


In many ways it was a reaction to The Cosby Show, and the attitude a lot of people might have had that there are no longer racial problems in America.  Why look, someone in 1984 might say, the most popular TV show is about a Black family, there are no longer any problems.  A Black middle class and even upper middle class as emerged.  It's all better, and it's morning in America.  It was very true that race relations had come a long way from what was happening before by the time of the 1980s, but things were not always so rosy and perfect.  There were still many problems, racism and ethnic stereotypes were very real and alive, inner city ghettos were still a breeding ground for violence and poverty,...and the late 80s demanded that this facts be heard.  Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing which came out in 1989, could never have been made in 1982.

Ofcourse now, I am not Black, so I may be talking out of my ass here.  These are my views and opinions on this matter.  If I offend anyone, please excuse it.  I realize this is a delicate matter.

Sounds about right. I think maybe they might have had a problem with being stereotyped as middle-class and people like Urkel, MC Hammer, Milli Vanilli may not have helped either. That might be why they went to the other extreme of gangsterism with groups like NWA.

Like Chris I may be talking out of my arse too ;D

Well yeah pretty much, you got it.  I can't remember where I read the term "race neutral", I think it was one of Toni Morrison's books, but it is much better description of certain African Americans who are blasted as "being White".  NBC's Bryant Gumbel is probably White in behavior, but Bill Cosby and The Cosby Show kids were not acting White, they just weren't exuding stereotypical "Blackness" and preaching about growing up in the hood. 


In many ways it was a reaction to The Cosby Show, and the attitude a lot of people might have had that there are no longer racial problems in America.  Why look, someone in 1984 might say, the most popular TV show is about a Black family, there are no longer any problems.  A Black middle class and even upper middle class as emerged.  It's all better, and it's morning in America.  It was very true that race relations had come a long way from what was happening before by the time of the 1980s, but things were not always so rosy and perfect.  There were still many problems, racism and ethnic stereotypes were very real and alive, inner city ghettos were still a breeding ground for violence and poverty,...and the late 80s demanded that this facts be heard.  Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing which came out in 1989, could never have been made in 1982.

Ofcourse now, I am not Black, so I may be talking out of my ass here.  These are my views and opinions on this matter.  If I offend anyone, please excuse it.  I realize this is a delicate matter.


I don't know much about the society and race in the United States (seeing as I don't live there) but do the majority of blacks really have a totally different culture to the 'mainstream' whites, or is it mainly in large black communities like Compton/Watts in L.A., Harlem in New York, Detroit, St. Louis.etc? Perhaps alot of African Americans, while of course identifying themselves as such, don't always feel pressured to 'show' they are black in the way they live, their atittude. Perhaps people of all races just want to get on with their lives, pay the bills.etc. Should race REALLY be invisible? People may say, yes, because there are also poor Whites, Latinos.etc., but do these people really need opportunities? These are all major societal problems which I know very little about, so I don't really feel qualified to talk about. I guess the link between pop culture and aforesaid issues is alot more important than we think.

I agree with Chris MegatronTHX in that there was probably a great deal of resentment by black people living in the "ghetto" in the late '80s that mainstream America was only fine with black people if they were middle/upper middle class and very "race neutral" like The Cosby Show characters, and people just assumed "everything was OK" and there was this yuppie-ish standard of assimmilation black people had to meet to conform (see: the term buppie, coined in the '80s.) The revival of "African pride" in the late '80s had something to do with this, maybe, and with the popularity of stuff like Spike Lee and Public Enemy.

There both is and there isn't a separate African-American culture. For example, there are "black movies" featuring mainly black actors, and black TV shows on the WB and UPN and BET, and there are certain musical artists and styles that are predominately black. There's also regional culture, though, particularly within the black community.

You mentioning movies brings to mind the 'Blaxploitation' phenomena of the early 70s. I saw a doco all about it, where they were debating whether it was overall a positive or negative thing for the Black Community at large. On one hand there were the usual arguments of exploitation, stereotyping, while on the other is that it brought black culture to the mainstream. I personally think it was a bit of both...both the heroes and villains of many of these movies were black, so it was the same scenarios (cops and robbers, pushers.etc) as any other. But I think drug-pushers are still stereotyped as people of non-Anglo Saxon descent, no different to the 'Italian greengrocer' or 'Jewish banker' stereotypes of old.

It's funny how the American audiences thought those same British groups invented a totally new, original style of music...


Often times in White America, these a rash of feeling that people of color do not contribute to society and culture in America, which as we all know is 100% blatantly false.

You mentioning movies brings to mind the 'Blaxploitation' phenomena of the early 70s. I saw a doco all about it, where they were debating whether it was overall a positive or negative thing for the Black Community at large. On one hand there were the usual arguments of exploitation, stereotyping, while on the other is that it brought black culture to the mainstream. I personally think it was a bit of both...both the heroes and villains of many of these movies were black, so it was the same scenarios (cops and robbers, pushers.etc) as any other. But I think drug-pushers are still stereotyped as people of non-Anglo Saxon descent, no different to the 'Italian greengrocer' or 'Jewish banker' stereotypes of old.

The "Blaxploitation Films" of the 70s is a subject thats still debated. Obviously when you look at anyone of those films  now its bad acting, the plot stinks, the 'pimp' character is celebrated and gratutious nudity.(Pam Grier). At the time the movie were popular because black actors were the lead characters good or bad and white characters were the bad guy. It gave work to alot black actors but  did they sell their soul to the devil by playing stereotypes rather than dignified characters?
I said before I prefer the the films from this generation than the 80s but I forgot about films like the

Color Purple
Glory
Soldier's Story
Do the Right Thing
She's Gotta Have It