Well everyone who replied to my topic way down below, I respectfully disagree BIG TIME with all of you guys. Even the people who kinda saw the truth of what I was pointing out, couldn't finish without saying something along the lines, "sure there were problems in the '80s, but its nowhere near as bad as now". No one can really see the inherent blindness of such statements.

I've realized though that its hopeless for me to speak the truth of human history throughout all time, and even debate this issue with people. People will still rose color history no matter what I say. You will always hear silly things like, "That's whats wrong with society these days....", which implies there was actually a time where there was nothing wrong with human society. The Bible is still relevant to people today isn't it? Why isn't it out of date since it comes from 2,000 years ago? Wasn't that a "simpler, easier time"? People didn't use each other then? Or step on others to achieve great things? Or exploit others? Why is it still relevant? Because the people in the Bible basically act the EXACT same way people today act, some customs and languages are different thats all.

And anytime people see some sleaze or outrageous stuff from the past, its always "way ahead of its time". Go to IMDB and read the reviews for NETWORK(1976), people go on and on about how that movie predicted sleaze in the media. It was "way ahead of its time". Go then and read reviews for HEATHERS(1989), where '80s high school students kill one another. People go on and on about that movie being "way ahead of its time".

Someone asked where I went to school, I didn't go to school in the inner city, nor was I raised in an impovershied home. I went to a couple of elementary schools in Seattle, and I went to two different junior high schools in Atlanta. So I moved around a bit. My freshmen year of high school in 1989 did have a school shooting. There were metal dectors in the '80s too. Someone said you hear about school shootings "every day" now. I don't. Once again, people want to exaggerate.

Schools got shot up back then to you know. This is a stat from TIME magazine, in 1993(my senior year) there were 54 violent deaths on high school campuses across America. 54!!! Most involved guns. In 2000......get this.....there were a mere 16. Shocking isn't it? Not what you expected right? Oh my gosh! Things actually got better in the world!!!! Could it be? The media exaggerates with everyone else, because Columbine was a BIG ratings story....so every other school shooting is treated like a main event.

Granted the '93 stat is from the '90s, not the "peaceful '80s", but still that is 7 to 8 years ago from the stat now.

There was one person who did say something I agree with. The '80s had far, far more violence and gore in films then the '90s did. The '80s produced.....Rambo. Rambo. Rambo, Commando, Terminator, Predator, Childs Play, Nightmare on Elm Street, etc., etc...good wholseome family entertainment. The early to mid '80s was over run with sleazy teenage movies that dealt with "How I lost my Virginity". Porkys, Meatballs and Hardbodies come to mind. Remember that stupid Tom Cruise high school flick titled "Loisn' It!"? Loisn' It....what a title. The '90s balanced the sleaze with quality films. You would never have had "The Age of Innocence", "Pulp Fiction" or "The English Patient" made in 1985.

Believe me, I am a BIG fan of the '80s, I had good times, and bad times, I just don't understand people lying to themselves about the reality of the "times".

I didn't go to school with Greg Brady and Beaver Cleaver!!!!!!

: Well everyone who replied to my topic way down
: below, I respectfully disagree BIG TIME with
: all of you guys. Even the people who kinda
: saw the truth of what I was pointing out,
: couldn't finish without saying something
: along the lines, "sure there were
: problems in the '80s, but its nowhere near
: as bad as now". No one can really see
: the inherent blindness of such statements.

: I've realized though that its hopeless for me
: to speak the truth of human history
: throughout all time, and even debate this
: issue with people. People will still rose
: color history no matter what I say. You will
: always hear silly things like, "That's
: whats wrong with society these
: days....", which implies there was
: actually a time where there was nothing
: wrong with human society. The Bible is still
: relevant to people today isn't it? Why isn't
: it out of date since it comes from 2,000
: years ago? Wasn't that a "simpler,
: easier time"? People didn't use each
: other then? Or step on others to achieve
: great things? Or exploit others? Why is it
: still relevant? Because the people in the
: Bible basically act the EXACT same way
: people today act, some customs and languages
: are different thats all.

I'm gonna add is this:

My Grampa NEVER locked his front door when my dad was a kid (50's).

My dad USUALLY locked the front door when I was a kid (70's).

We ALWAYS lock our front door. Sometimes during the day when we're home (maybe not deadbolted, but the door knob is locked).

In the summer, I used to leave my house as a pre-teen/teen around 8 or 9am, come home around sun-down. Now, every parent needs to (or at least SHOULD) know the whereabouts of their children at any time of the day.

I used to walk to school ALONE from 1st grade on up. Sure, I'd usually meet up with a friend or two, but not always. This past school season 3 kids were abducted while walking to school in the Phoenix area. 2 were just yards away from the school.

Maybe the media is now bringing EVERYONE's problem to our doorstep, magnifying the bad. But back then, it wasn't nearly as bad.

And before you start ripping about how it wasn't all "rosey", I know. But, there's no way you can say that kids can be kids today like we were in the 70's/80's.

Then again, I didn't have Playstation2.....

: I'm gonna add is this: My Grampa NEVER locked
: his front door when my dad was a kid (50's).

: My dad USUALLY locked the front door when I was
: a kid (70's).

: We ALWAYS lock our front door. Sometimes during
: the day when we're home (maybe not
: deadbolted, but the door knob is locked).

: In the summer, I used to leave my house as a
: pre-teen/teen around 8 or 9am, come home
: around sun-down. Now, every parent needs to
: (or at least SHOULD) know the whereabouts of
: their children at any time of the day.

: I used to walk to school ALONE from 1st grade
: on up. Sure, I'd usually meet up with a
: friend or two, but not always. This past
: school season 3 kids were abducted while
: walking to school in the Phoenix area. 2
: were just yards away from the school.

: Maybe the media is now bringing EVERYONE's
: problem to our doorstep, magnifying the bad.
: But back then, it wasn't nearly as bad.

: And before you start ripping about how it
: wasn't all "rosey", I know. But,
: there's no way you can say that kids can be
: kids today like we were in the 70's/80's.

: Then again, I didn't have Playstation2.....

By the way, I hope you don't think I am "ripping" into any statments or you personally. I apologize if I ever did that to you or anyone else. I really wrote a long response in that last post, and it may look like "ripping" as you put it. I injected some levity and sarcastic lines in there, but I hope I have been respectful and courteous to you and all others with this subject.

This is a topic that has been fascinating me since I was kid back in 1989. But I know I will convince none or few to my side. Most people seem to "need" to believe times were better 5 or 10 years ago, even if they know its a distortion and exaggeration of history.

: I'm gonna add is this: My Grampa NEVER locked
: his front door when my dad was a kid (50's).

: My dad USUALLY locked the front door when I was
: a kid (70's).

: We ALWAYS lock our front door. Sometimes during
: the day when we're home (maybe not
: deadbolted, but the door knob is locked).

: In the summer, I used to leave my house as a
: pre-teen/teen around 8 or 9am, come home
: around sun-down. Now, every parent needs to
: (or at least SHOULD) know the whereabouts of
: their children at any time of the day.

: I used to walk to school ALONE from 1st grade
: on up. Sure, I'd usually meet up with a
: friend or two, but not always. This past
: school season 3 kids were abducted while
: walking to school in the Phoenix area. 2
: were just yards away from the school.

: Maybe the media is now bringing EVERYONE's
: problem to our doorstep, magnifying the bad.
: But back then, it wasn't nearly as bad.

: And before you start ripping about how it
: wasn't all "rosey", I know. But,
: there's no way you can say that kids can be
: kids today like we were in the 70's/80's.

: Then again, I didn't have Playstation2.....

I'll have to respectfully disagree with many your statements as well. How do you know your dad and your grandpa aren't feeding you a typical parental line? You don't know, you weren't there. All you heard is the same lines you are probably telling children today. That things were better when you grew up. And you know how the world is. Can human behavior really take a sharp right and change in such a drastic way in a mere span of 30-40 years? Is getting mugged and raped in 1955 any worse then getting mugged and raped in 2001? You're still getting mugged and raped aren't you? Were the criminals nicer back in the '50s when they mugged and raped you? Do you think they would make small talk with you and ask you if you watched Father Knows Best while they mugged and raped you? And how did these sick, distrubed human beings miraculously show up in the '90s? Where were they before? Obeying laws of etiquette?

I started questioning these kind of statments around 12 years ago, back in '89 when a school teacher of mine would repeatedly tell my 8th grade class that they didn't have to lock their doors back in the '50s and '60s and there was no violence or crime back then. I thought thats just total bogus. I would have never thought back in '89 that people were actually going to say the same lies about the '80s. But surprise surprise, it has happened. It WILL happen to the '90s, TRUST me on that!! Its already happening.

Ofcourse, most people in America(and maybey the world) tend to think along your lines. So I know I am debating a lost cause when people are always convinced that the present day is the worst time imaginable in human history, the problems we face are brand new, and just a few years before things were better. Exactly what made things get so bad in the 12 years from 1989 to 2001?

I was never allowed to walk home alone in the 1st grade, because a 6 year old kid named Adam Walsh was abducted in a busy shopping mall in full view of hundreds of other patrons and had his head cut off back in 1981. His dad John went on to found the TV show "America's Most Wanted". I was also scared for my life as a kid back in the '80s when I would watch the news and hear about sickos injecting acid and other poision in candy given out to trick-or-treaters. I also remember serial killers cutting up their victims and storing them in freezers back in the '80s and I'm sure that went on in the '70s. This doesn't sound like a "better" world. It sounds like a world that is populated with the same type of sickos.

Things are actually slightly better now then back then. People tend to be much more active in neighborhood watch programs then ever before. Little children tend to be slightly more educated about who to trust and who not to trust. School violence is down, despite what the ratings obsessed media tells you. Most human beings on the planet are granted basic human rights, this was not the case in the '40s, '50s or even '60s. In the '40s you had a lunatic in Germany slaugtering millions of people, hardly a peaceful paradise. Women were treated worse back in the '50s, people of color were treated as subhumans and lynched on a regular basis and the mentally disturbed were housed in barbaric conditions.

People tend to live longer now then before, standards of living is raised higher then ever. In my opinion, things are better now then ever before in human history. Things can get worse, but it wouldn't be a "worse" that was never seen by human eyes.

Most of the "rebellion" that the Baby Boomers did in the '50s and '60s, was against an IMAGINARY world of "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" that never existed in the first place except in some network executive's head. In fact, the "pushing the boundaries or pushing the edge" in the American media has always been a rebellion against an ideallic time that never, ever, ever existed. The custom in the '50s and '60s in American media was to be under the strangelhold of the hypocritical "moral" Bible Belt. Now those customs did infact change. But the violence, sex, etc. etc, that they decided to show on TV or movies was hardly "brand new". That always existed. Its always been about rebelling against a make believe fantasy or instead showing the reality of the world. Now I don't have kids, so I don't know if that's good or bad. But generational gaps are usually created because kids grow up and discover the world is not the perfect place their parents told them it was. And ofcourse the kids then assume their parents are "old fashioned" because their parents tell them they grew up in simpler times where they rarely or never locked their doors. And American TV contains far less violence and sex than our European counterparts.

I think its better now then ever before in human history, save for the moment before the explusion from the Garden of Eden. It can get worse, but it wouldn't be a worse we have never seen. Crime can spike up, but that would be nothing new is the point I am making. I just don't believe human kind can get any more screwed up then it already was from the get go. It can only get better. But it usually never does.

By the way, there was Atari and Colleco Vision in the '70s, and Nintendo, Sega, and Commodore 64s in the '80s. In both decades, the adults said kids spend way too much time playing video games and watching TV, while not enough time playing outside. Nearly every day after school in 1985 I was playing Nintendo at home and/or Sega at the mall. Is that any different from what these kids do today? The games availabe now are better thats all. And our parents back then in the '70s and '80s could be forgiven for saying they didn't grow up with this, and that they actually played outside. They really didn't grow up with it. Though some of them did grow up with TV. But we grew up with TV and video games. How is that any different then now? So why are we as adults now saying we didn't grow up with video games and when we were kids, "kids still played outside"? That's BULL!!!

My point is, these kids today get enough garbage hurled at them. I can sympathize with them. All we ever do is talk about how bad they are and how evil they are. The vast majority of children and teenagers today will make it through this world with something resembling a "normal life". Most of these children and teens are NOT gun totting psychopaths, that's just a small minority of lunatics. A few will be lost, really a handful, but that's life. Kids were lost back when were that age too.

: I'll have to respectfully disagree with many
: your statements as well. How do you know
: your dad and your grandpa aren't feeding you
: a typical parental line? You don't know, you
: weren't there. All you heard is the same
: lines you are probably telling children
: today. That things were better when you grew
: up. And you know how the world is. Can human
: behavior really take a sharp right and
: change in such a drastic way in a mere span
: of 30-40 years? Is getting mugged and raped
: in 1955 any worse then getting mugged and
: raped in 2001? You're still getting mugged
: and raped aren't you? Were the criminals
: nicer back in the '50s when they mugged and
: raped you? Do you think they would make
: small talk with you and ask you if you
: watched Father Knows Best while they mugged
: and raped you? And how did these sick,
: distrubed human beings miraculously show up
: in the '90s? Where were they before? Obeying
: laws of etiquette?

: I started questioning these kind of statments
: around 12 years ago, back in '89 when a
: school teacher of mine would repeatedly tell
: my 8th grade class that they didn't have to
: lock their doors back in the '50s and '60s
: and there was no violence or crime back
: then. I thought thats just total bogus. I
: would have never thought back in '89 that
: people were actually going to say the same
: lies about the '80s. But surprise surprise,
: it has happened. It WILL happen to the '90s,
: TRUST me on that!! Its already happening.

: Ofcourse, most people in America(and maybey the
: world) tend to think along your lines. So I
: know I am debating a lost cause when people
: are always convinced that the present day is
: the worst time imaginable in human history,
: the problems we face are brand new, and just
: a few years before things were better.
: Exactly what made things get so bad in the
: 12 years from 1989 to 2001?

: I was never allowed to walk home alone in the
: 1st grade, because a 6 year old kid named
: Adam Walsh was abducted in a busy shopping
: mall in full view of hundreds of other
: patrons and had his head cut off back in
: 1981. His dad John went on to found the TV
: show "America's Most Wanted". I
: was also scared for my life as a kid back in
: the '80s when I would watch the news and
: hear about sickos injecting acid and other
: poision in candy given out to
: trick-or-treaters. I also remember serial
: killers cutting up their victims and storing
: them in freezers back in the '80s and I'm
: sure that went on in the '70s. This doesn't
: sound like a "better" world. It
: sounds like a world that is populated with
: the same type of sickos.

: Things are actually slightly better now then
: back then. People tend to be much more
: active in neighborhood watch programs then
: ever before. Little children tend to be
: slightly more educated about who to trust
: and who not to trust. School violence is
: down, despite what the ratings obsessed
: media tells you. Most human beings on the
: planet are granted basic human rights, this
: was not the case in the '40s, '50s or even
: '60s. In the '40s you had a lunatic in
: Germany slaugtering millions of people,
: hardly a peaceful paradise. Women were
: treated worse back in the '50s, people of
: color were treated as subhumans and lynched
: on a regular basis and the mentally
: disturbed were housed in barbaric
: conditions.

: People tend to live longer now then before,
: standards of living is raised higher then
: ever. In my opinion, things are better now
: then ever before in human history. Things
: can get worse, but it wouldn't be a
: "worse" that was never seen by
: human eyes.

: Most of the "rebellion" that the Baby
: Boomers did in the '50s and '60s, was
: against an IMAGINARY world of "Leave it
: to Beaver" and "Father Knows
: Best" that never existed in the first
: place except in some network executive's
: head. In fact, the "pushing the
: boundaries or pushing the edge" in the
: American media has always been a rebellion
: against an ideallic time that never, ever,
: ever existed. The custom in the '50s and
: '60s in American media was to be under the
: strangelhold of the hypocritical
: "moral" Bible Belt. Now those
: customs did infact change. But the violence,
: sex, etc. etc, that they decided to show on
: TV or movies was hardly "brand
: new". That always existed. Its always
: been about rebelling against a make believe
: fantasy or instead showing the reality of
: the world. Now I don't have kids, so I don't
: know if that's good or bad. But generational
: gaps are usually created because kids grow
: up and discover the world is not the perfect
: place their parents told them it was. And
: ofcourse the kids then assume their parents
: are "old fashioned" because their
: parents tell them they grew up in simpler
: times where they rarely or never locked
: their doors. And American TV contains far
: less violence and sex than our European
: counterparts.

: I think its better now then ever before in
: human history, save for the moment before
: the explusion from the Garden of Eden. It
: can get worse, but it wouldn't be a worse we
: have never seen. Crime can spike up, but
: that would be nothing new is the point I am
: making. I just don't believe human kind can
: get any more screwed up then it already was
: from the get go. It can only get better. But
: it usually never does.

: By the way, there was Atari and Colleco Vision
: in the '70s, and Nintendo, Sega, and
: Commodore 64s in the '80s. In both decades,
: the adults said kids spend way too much time
: playing video games and watching TV, while
: not enough time playing outside. Nearly
: every day after school in 1985 I was playing
: Nintendo at home and/or Sega at the mall. Is
: that any different from what these kids do
: today? The games availabe now are better
: thats all. And our parents back then in the
: '70s and '80s could be forgiven for saying
: they didn't grow up with this, and that they
: actually played outside. They really didn't
: grow up with it. Though some of them did
: grow up with TV. But we grew up with TV and
: video games. How is that any different then
: now? So why are we as adults now saying we
: didn't grow up with video games and when we
: were kids, "kids still played
: outside"? That's BULL!!!

: My point is, these kids today get enough
: garbage hurled at them. I can sympathize
: with them. All we ever do is talk about how
: bad they are and how evil they are. The vast
: majority of children and teenagers today
: will make it through this world with
: something resembling a "normal
: life". Most of these children and teens
: are NOT gun totting psychopaths, that's just
: a small minority of lunatics. A few will be
: lost, really a handful, but that's life.
: Kids were lost back when were that age too.

Ah, I see. This is akin to a political/religious debate. YOUR statement is true, any oposing view is wrong. Gotcha.

Carry on, then.

Well, let's see if I have this figured out. Basically, you're saying that you're right and everyone else is wrong. You're saying that if our parents told us they slept with the doors unlocked, they're feeding us "a typical parental line". Well, guess what? I happen to know that when I was a kid we didn't lock our doors. Of course this was the early/mid 70s, but the point is still the same. I remember it well because when my uncle would come visit from Ohio he would always comment on what would happen if you left your doors unlocked at night in Cleveland.

As for playing outside, I certainly did my share of it. So does my son. He plays video games as well (with time limits), but he also plays outside. It isn't healthy for children to sit inside a house all day. Why do you think there are so many fat kids out there today? It's because they sit inside playing Sega, watching TV and eating junk food during their free time. Left to their own devices, that's what kids will do. But as parents, it's our job to encourage them to exercise (ie: play outside) and eat healthy foods.

: Well, let's see if I have this figured out.
: Basically, you're saying that you're right
: and everyone else is wrong. You're saying
: that if our parents told us they slept with
: the doors unlocked, they're feeding us
: "a typical parental line". Well,
: guess what? I happen to know that when I was
: a kid we didn't lock our doors. Of
: course this was the early/mid 70s, but the
: point is still the same. I remember it well
: because when my uncle would come visit from
: Ohio he would always comment on what would
: happen if you left your doors unlocked at
: night in Cleveland.

: As for playing outside, I certainly did my
: share of it. So does my son. He plays video
: games as well (with time limits), but he
: also plays outside. It isn't healthy for
: children to sit inside a house all day. Why
: do you think there are so many fat kids out
: there today? It's because they sit inside
: playing Sega, watching TV and eating junk
: food during their free time. Left to their
: own devices, that's what kids will do. But
: as parents, it's our job to encourage them
: to exercise (ie: play outside) and eat
: healthy foods.

Well said, Wicked Lester. I have avoided this post because after reading it, well, frankly, I had nothing nice to say. And I was anxiously awaiting all of the responses on the board--and you have all done very well. And your post here, in particular, pretty well sums up the feeling I get from this poster as well. I think that no matter what anyone says, some people will just have different views on the era. Ugly ones. I think saying it's been "sugar coated" is ridiculous, and I'm sorry for anyone that had to grow up in such a horrible way as this man sounds like he did.
But I mainly want to commend you on your attitude to what our jobs, as parents, are. My son also has his computer game use timed. Then he is outside playing or doing something with his imagination to excercise his mind. Sure he watches TV, but we also try and keep a handle on that, both in what he watches and how long he watches it. I think that it is vital that we try and steer them the right way, and to parent them as best we know how. I think the fat kids you refer to is just another sign of the times where parents feel that they CAN'T parent as they would like to, or where parents have children, yet don't want to bother with the details of actually RAISING a child.
Personally, I think THAT is one of the worst signs of today, and you can see it in many, many kids. Sad.

: But I mainly want to commend you on your
: attitude to what our jobs, as parents, are.

Thank you. I had very good teachers, and have a good helper in my wife

: My son also has his computer game use timed.
: Then he is outside playing or doing
: something with his imagination to excercise
: his mind.

How old is your son? Mine will be 7 in November. You know what? We have taught him that reading is a good thing! Imagine a kid in this day and age actually reading a book! People overlook the benifit gained by this simple act, I think. It not only helps develop the imagination, but builds vocabulary as well.

: I think the fat kids you refer to is just
: another sign of the times where parents feel
: that they CAN'T parent as they would like to,
: or where parents have children, yet don't
: want to bother with the details of actually
: RAISING a child. Personally, I think THAT is
: one of the worst signs of today, and you can
: see it in many, many kids. Sad.

I agree here. Some people just don't want to be "bothered" with their kids, so they stick them in front of the TV, with no concern for what they watch. I have no problem with my children watching TV (although my daughter isn't old enough yet), but what they watch and how long they watch it will be monitored.

: Thank you. I had very good teachers, and have a
: good helper in my wife

: How old is your son? Mine will be 7 in
: November. You know what? We have taught him
: that reading is a good thing! Imagine a kid
: in this day and age actually reading a book!
: People overlook the benifit gained by this
: simple act, I think. It not only helps
: develop the imagination, but builds
: vocabulary as well.

: I agree here. Some people just don't want to be
: "bothered" with their kids, so
: they stick them in front of the TV, with no
: concern for what they watch. I have no
: problem with my children watching TV
: (although my daughter isn't old enough yet),
: but what they watch and how long they watch
: it will be monitored.

My son will be 8 in September, and he loves to read. I hope we are encouraging him to keep at it, so he will continue to enjoy it as he gets older. He also often reads to his 4 year old sister, and though she can't read yet, I hear her picking up her books and making up the story as she goes. Sometimes it's by memory, and sometimes she just says whatever the picture looks like to her. I'm glad they seem to enjoy it so much. Certainly makes those long car rides more enjoyable for ALL of us! I agree that it does do wonders for their vocabulary and their imagination. Even when they play on the computer, I try to have fun programs that actually TEACH them something. I just ordered a few 'Schoolhouse Rock' programs, and I can't wait to see what they can learn from something as tested and true as Schoolhouse Rock!!
I taught preschool for 7 years, and I saw so many parents that just acted as though their children were a bother, and they seldom if ever spent "quality time" with them. I'd see parents take a federal holiday off, but spend it with their kids in day care and them at the beach..it always made me so mad. I mean, sure our kids can drive us nuts sometimes, but isn't it OUR job to teach them and let them know they are cared about and valuable little people? Gosh it's no wonder so many kids today show so little respect for people! Ugh! But don't even get me started on that!! LOL!
All in all, I'm glad to see that our generation really has produced some parents that want to do the best we can for our kids. I got this poem while I was working at a school about six years ago, and I always at least TRY to remember it!

A hundred years from now
it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove.. but the world may be different because I made a difference in the life of a child.

: A hundred years from now
: it will not matter what my bank account was,
: the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of
: car I drove.. but the world may be different
: because I made a difference in the life of a
: child.

I don't want to keep this thread going b/c we've kinda gotten off topic and I don't want to anger anyone, but I did want to respond to this. That poem is dead on the money. It can't be put any better