I got into a discussion with a younger guy at work this week about the differences between the music of the 80's versus that of the 90's. He pretty much said that the 90's rule and that the 80's sucked; of course, I too the opposite view. I explained to him that the music of the 90's is much more diverse (not a bad thing), and that the 80's was primarily rock and alternative. I cited examples of 80's supergroups such as the Police, Foreigner, Journey, U2, Styx, AC/DC, Def Leppard, Depeche Mode, INXS, the Cure, etc. I told him that the only bands from the 90's with those types of following and fans would be Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, and maybe Bush. I told him that because of that diversity, that most 90's bands could not expect to draw the numbers of fans to their concerts that the 80's supergroups did and that is why there are more festivals with multiple bands now than there was then. He still doesn't buy my reasoning. Can anyone come up with any supporting documentation? Thanks.

: I got into a discussion with a younger guy at work this week about the differences between the music of the 80's versus that of the 90's. He pretty much said that the 90's rule and that the 80's sucked; of course, I too the opposite view. I explained to him that the music of the 90's is much more diverse (not a bad thing), and that the 80's was primarily rock and alternative. I cited examples of 80's supergroups such as the Police, Foreigner, Journey, U2, Styx, AC/DC, Def Leppard, Depeche Mode, INXS, the Cure, etc. I told him that the only bands from the 90's with those types of following and fans would be Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, and maybe Bush. I told him that because of that diversity, that most 90's bands could not expect to draw the numbers of fans to their concerts that the 80's supergroups did and that is why there are more festivals with multiple bands now than there was then. He still doesn't buy my reasoning. Can anyone come up with any supporting documentation? Thanks.

This question really got me thinking and here are some of my reasons.

In the 80's, you are right, there was rock and alternative otherwise known as New Wave and Heavy Metal. In my circles these group hated each other creating the unity among the masses. Sure there were crossover hits but for the most part If you liked Duran Duran you were not a big fan of, let's say Ratt.

Hip Hop was known as Rap music. There weren't that many Rap groups that broke into mainstream in the beginning. Rap in the 80's was not about carrying guns or being in a gang. It was about breakdancing and hanging with your friends and partying. This is what made Rap very easy to listen to and enjoy. Usually the music that means the most to you is the music that you relate to.

Okay so at this point we not only have New Wave (alternative) Heavy Metal (Rock) we also have Rap (hip hop.)

In the 80's I don't recall any huge mega Country Star's that exist today. No Garth Brooks, Brooks and Dunn, Reba was around but not at the status she is today. In the 90's Country is the #1 Radio format in the country. In the 80's it was like a mortal sin to admit listening to country music, nowadays well you can admit it but be careful who you admit it too. I don't imagine the die hard country fan to listen too "hip hop, rock or alternative)

Add one more to the pile for the 90's
1. Alternative
2. Rock
(which are basically the same in my eyes)
3. Hip Hop (way too popular)
4. Country

But wait there is more,
I am trying to recall who would be considered the Toni Braxton, Anita Baker, BabyFace you know the R&B superstars of the 80's. I am drawing a blank here so if anyone has input please share. So let's add this one to the pile. Now you could argue that most people that listen to R&B could be seen listening to Hip Hop. But at the same time would they go to an arena event to see a Hip Hop act. Hmmmm some would some wouldn't so they have yet another genre to contend with in filling stadium seats.

We are now up to 5 major categories.

In the 90's you also need to remember that the teens in the 80's are adults now. What we used to rebel against we now understand (for the most part). We have many different sources of music to choose from other than just New Wave and Heavy Metal.
90's alternative is basically angst ridden and hateful. 80's music was, what is the best way to describe it, well it could be happy or sad or thought provoking but it pretty much always had a good beat.
Hip Hop is music I personally do not understand, I did not grow up in the ghetto, I do not run with a gang, I don't want to carry a gun. Let's just say that if you name a Hip Hop artist my reaction is WHO??? Not too mention that Hip Hop is nothing more than talentless people who are reusing 80's songs that 90's kids hate so much!(think about it)

So to shut me up let me recap.
80's had:
1. New Wave (Alternative)
2. Heavy Metal (Rock)

The 90's have
1. Alternative(no longer New Wave or alternative)
2. Rock (Which was Heavy Metal but is now altern)
3. Hip Hop (Which is 80's music with new lyrics)
4. R&B (Which splits the vote with Hip Hop)
5. Country(Which is more popular than all others)

Just by comparing the two lists you can see why the draw of a concert is no longer as great as it was in the 80's.

If he doesn't like this just tell him the 80's were great and the 90's suck. (smile)

Dan

I love this discussion! Dan, I guess I gotta disagree with you here on some points, which I really don't do often (!) because you definitely, as I said before, know your stuff. But first, let me say as an eighties Duran Duran AND Ratt AND Ozzy Osborne AND OMD AND Grandmaster Flash fan that the fans of the music weren't nearly at all as segmented as they are today. When I was growing up, most of the people listened to most of the music and even if they weren't big fans of the certain styles, they were at least familiar with the genres. Top 40 was great in its heyday because there was such a wide range of music making the charts, not like today where so-called hip hop (I'll get to that later) dominates. Lionel Ritchie teaming up with Alabama for "Deep River Woman" comes to mind, as well as Public Enemy and Anthrax doing "Bring The Noise" which is a great mixing of the genres. No, neither one of these songs actually made the top 40, but could you imagine anything like this happening today? (That poor excuse of Bob Seger and Martina McBride on the "Hope Floats" soundtrack notwithstanding).

Now about the rap/hip-hop thing. This is the thing that gets me about people who didn't listen to urban contemporary music in the eighties. (And believe me, I'm not coming down on ya. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Nothing wrong with that.) The 1980's rap is NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING like the crap rap we hear anymore. Rap in the eighties was more rhythmic and danceable and downright fun. Back then, rap and hip-hop were not necessarily the same thing. For example, Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" was straight urban rap, but the message was easily understood without all the urban code words so often used today. Because "The Message" was about getting the message of life on the street out to people to LET them understand, rather than if you AIN"T THERE then you DON"T understand. Conversely, Afrika Bambaataa's "Planet Rock" and Jonzun Crew's "Pack Jam (Look out for the O.V.C.)" for example, were not rap at all in any fashion, but was pure hip-hop, an urban dance beat usually with the use of vocoders and sound effects. Many people consider "Old School" to be exclusively rap music, when in actuality rap was only a part, albeit substantial, of the whole Old School Movement.

That whole thing had nothing to do with the topic, did it?

Anyway, my point is that 80's music was livelier, more enjoyable, and MORE DIVERSE than anything the 90's have to offer. You make a great argument, Dan, and I agree that the 90's are indeed the eighties remade for the most part. Your points, as always, are very well taken.

Your pal,

Retroraider

: : I got into a discussion with a younger guy at work this week about the differences between the music of the 80's versus that of the 90's. He pretty much said that the 90's rule and that the 80's sucked; of course, I too the opposite view. I explained to him that the music of the 90's is much more diverse (not a bad thing), and that the 80's was primarily rock and alternative. I cited examples of 80's supergroups such as the Police, Foreigner, Journey, U2, Styx, AC/DC, Def Leppard, Depeche Mode, INXS, the Cure, etc. I told him that the only bands from the 90's with those types of following and fans would be Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, and maybe Bush. I told him that because of that diversity, that most 90's bands could not expect to draw the numbers of fans to their concerts that the 80's supergroups did and that is why there are more festivals with multiple bands now than there was then. He still doesn't buy my reasoning. Can anyone come up with any supporting documentation? Thanks.

: This question really got me thinking and here are some of my reasons.

: In the 80's, you are right, there was rock and alternative otherwise known as New Wave and Heavy Metal. In my circles these group hated each other creating the unity among the masses. Sure there were crossover hits but for the most part If you liked Duran Duran you were not a big fan of, let's say Ratt.

: Hip Hop was known as Rap music. There weren't that many Rap groups that broke into mainstream in the beginning. Rap in the 80's was not about carrying guns or being in a gang. It was about breakdancing and hanging with your friends and partying. This is what made Rap very easy to listen to and enjoy. Usually the music that means the most to you is the music that you relate to.

: Okay so at this point we not only have New Wave (alternative) Heavy Metal (Rock) we also have Rap (hip hop.)

: In the 80's I don't recall any huge mega Country Star's that exist today. No Garth Brooks, Brooks and Dunn, Reba was around but not at the status she is today. In the 90's Country is the #1 Radio format in the country. In the 80's it was like a mortal sin to admit listening to country music, nowadays well you can admit it but be careful who you admit it too. I don't imagine the die hard country fan to listen too "hip hop, rock or alternative)

: Add one more to the pile for the 90's
: 1. Alternative
: 2. Rock
: (which are basically the same in my eyes)
: 3. Hip Hop (way too popular)
: 4. Country

: But wait there is more,
: I am trying to recall who would be considered the Toni Braxton, Anita Baker, BabyFace you know the R&B superstars of the 80's. I am drawing a blank here so if anyone has input please share. So let's add this one to the pile. Now you could argue that most people that listen to R&B could be seen listening to Hip Hop. But at the same time would they go to an arena event to see a Hip Hop act. Hmmmm some would some wouldn't so they have yet another genre to contend with in filling stadium seats.

: We are now up to 5 major categories.

: In the 90's you also need to remember that the teens in the 80's are adults now. What we used to rebel against we now understand (for the most part). We have many different sources of music to choose from other than just New Wave and Heavy Metal.
: 90's alternative is basically angst ridden and hateful. 80's music was, what is the best way to describe it, well it could be happy or sad or thought provoking but it pretty much always had a good beat.
: Hip Hop is music I personally do not understand, I did not grow up in the ghetto, I do not run with a gang, I don't want to carry a gun. Let's just say that if you name a Hip Hop artist my reaction is WHO??? Not too mention that Hip Hop is nothing more than talentless people who are reusing 80's songs that 90's kids hate so much!(think about it)

: So to shut me up let me recap.
: 80's had:
: 1. New Wave (Alternative)
: 2. Heavy Metal (Rock)

: The 90's have
: 1. Alternative(no longer New Wave or alternative)
: 2. Rock (Which was Heavy Metal but is now altern)
: 3. Hip Hop (Which is 80's music with new lyrics)
: 4. R&B (Which splits the vote with Hip Hop)
: 5. Country(Which is more popular than all others)

: Just by comparing the two lists you can see why the draw of a concert is no longer as great as it was in the 80's.

: If he doesn't like this just tell him the 80's were great and the 90's suck. (smile)

: Dan

I love this discussion! Dan, I guess I gotta disagree with you here on some points, which I really don't do often (!) because you definitely, as I said before, know your stuff. But first, let me say as an eighties Duran Duran AND Ratt AND Ozzy Osborne AND OMD AND Grandmaster Flash fan that the fans of the music weren't nearly at all as segmented as they are today. When I was growing up, most of the people listened to most of the music and even if they weren't big fans of the certain styles, they were at least familiar with the genres. Top 40 was great in its heyday because there was such a wide range of music making the charts, not like today where so-called hip hop (I'll get to that later) dominates. Lionel Ritchie teaming up with Alabama for "Deep River Woman" comes to mind, as well as Public Enemy and Anthrax doing "Bring The Noise" which is a great mixing of the genres. No, neither one of these songs actually made the top 40, but could you imagine anything like this happening today? (That poor excuse of Bob Seger and Martina McBride on the "Hope Floats" soundtrack notwithstanding).

Now about the rap/hip-hop thing. This is the thing that gets me about people who didn't listen to urban contemporary music in the eighties. (And believe me, I'm not coming down on ya. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Nothing wrong with that.) The 1980's rap is NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING like the crap rap we hear anymore. Rap in the eighties was more rhythmic and danceable and downright fun. Back then, rap and hip-hop were not necessarily the same thing. For example, Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" was straight urban rap, but the message was easily understood without all the urban code words so often used today. Because "The Message" was about getting the message of life on the street out to people to LET them understand, rather than if you AIN"T THERE then you DON"T understand. Conversely, Afrika Bambaataa's "Planet Rock" and Jonzun Crew's "Pack Jam (Look out for the O.V.C.)" for example, were not rap at all in any fashion, but was pure hip-hop, an urban dance beat usually with the use of vocoders and sound effects. Many people consider "Old School" to be exclusively rap music, when in actuality rap was only a part, albeit substantial, of the whole Old School Movement.

That whole thing had nothing to do with the topic, did it?

Anyway, my point is that 80's music was livelier, more enjoyable, and MORE DIVERSE than anything the 90's have to offer. You make a great argument, Dan, and I agree that the 90's are indeed the eighties remade for the most part. Your points, as always, are very well taken.

Your pal,

Retroraider

:
: : : I got into a discussion with a younger guy at work this week about the differences between the music of the 80's versus that of the 90's. He pretty much said that the 90's rule and that the 80's sucked; of course, I too the opposite view. I explained to him that the music of the 90's is much more diverse (not a bad thing), and that the 80's was primarily rock and alternative. I cited examples of 80's supergroups such as the Police, Foreigner, Journey, U2, Styx, AC/DC, Def Leppard, Depeche Mode, INXS, the Cure, etc. I told him that the only bands from the 90's with those types of following and fans would be Pearl Jam, Smashing Pumpkins, and maybe Bush. I told him that because of that diversity, that most 90's bands could not expect to draw the numbers of fans to their concerts that the 80's supergroups did and that is why there are more festivals with multiple bands now than there was then. He still doesn't buy my reasoning. Can anyone come up with any supporting documentation? Thanks.

: : This question really got me thinking and here are some of my reasons.

: : In the 80's, you are right, there was rock and alternative otherwise known as New Wave and Heavy Metal. In my circles these group hated each other creating the unity among the masses. Sure there were crossover hits but for the most part If you liked Duran Duran you were not a big fan of, let's say Ratt.

: : Hip Hop was known as Rap music. There weren't that many Rap groups that broke into mainstream in the beginning. Rap in the 80's was not about carrying guns or being in a gang. It was about breakdancing and hanging with your friends and partying. This is what made Rap very easy to listen to and enjoy. Usually the music that means the most to you is the music that you relate to.

: : Okay so at this point we not only have New Wave (alternative) Heavy Metal (Rock) we also have Rap (hip hop.)

: : In the 80's I don't recall any huge mega Country Star's that exist today. No Garth Brooks, Brooks and Dunn, Reba was around but not at the status she is today. In the 90's Country is the #1 Radio format in the country. In the 80's it was like a mortal sin to admit listening to country music, nowadays well you can admit it but be careful who you admit it too. I don't imagine the die hard country fan to listen too "hip hop, rock or alternative)

: : Add one more to the pile for the 90's
: : 1. Alternative
: : 2. Rock
: : (which are basically the same in my eyes)
: : 3. Hip Hop (way too popular)
: : 4. Country

: : But wait there is more,
: : I am trying to recall who would be considered the Toni Braxton, Anita Baker, BabyFace you know the R&B superstars of the 80's. I am drawing a blank here so if anyone has input please share. So let's add this one to the pile. Now you could argue that most people that listen to R&B could be seen listening to Hip Hop. But at the same time would they go to an arena event to see a Hip Hop act. Hmmmm some would some wouldn't so they have yet another genre to contend with in filling stadium seats.

: : We are now up to 5 major categories.

: : In the 90's you also need to remember that the teens in the 80's are adults now. What we used to rebel against we now understand (for the most part). We have many different sources of music to choose from other than just New Wave and Heavy Metal.
: : 90's alternative is basically angst ridden and hateful. 80's music was, what is the best way to describe it, well it could be happy or sad or thought provoking but it pretty much always had a good beat.
: : Hip Hop is music I personally do not understand, I did not grow up in the ghetto, I do not run with a gang, I don't want to carry a gun. Let's just say that if you name a Hip Hop artist my reaction is WHO??? Not too mention that Hip Hop is nothing more than talentless people who are reusing 80's songs that 90's kids hate so much!(think about it)

: : So to shut me up let me recap.
: : 80's had:
: : 1. New Wave (Alternative)
: : 2. Heavy Metal (Rock)

: : The 90's have
: : 1. Alternative(no longer New Wave or alternative)
: : 2. Rock (Which was Heavy Metal but is now altern)
: : 3. Hip Hop (Which is 80's music with new lyrics)
: : 4. R&B (Which splits the vote with Hip Hop)
: : 5. Country(Which is more popular than all others)

: : Just by comparing the two lists you can see why the draw of a concert is no longer as great as it was in the 80's.

: : If he doesn't like this just tell him the 80's were great and the 90's suck. (smile)

: : Dan

: I love this discussion! Dan, I guess I gotta disagree with you here on some points, which I really don't do often (!) because you definitely, as I said before, know your stuff. But first, let me say as an eighties Duran Duran AND Ratt AND Ozzy Osborne AND OMD AND Grandmaster Flash fan that the fans of the music weren't nearly at all as segmented as they are today. When I was growing up, most of the people listened to most of the music and even if they weren't big fans of the certain styles, they were at least familiar with the genres. Top 40 was great in its heyday because there was such a wide range of music making the charts, not like today where so-called hip hop (I'll get to that later) dominates. Lionel Ritchie teaming up with Alabama for "Deep River Woman" comes to mind, as well as Public Enemy and Anthrax doing "Bring The Noise" which is a great mixing of the genres. No, neither one of these songs actually made the top 40, but could you imagine anything like this happening today? (That poor excuse of Bob Seger and Martina McBride on the "Hope Floats" soundtrack notwithstanding).

: Now about the rap/hip-hop thing. This is the thing that gets me about people who didn't listen to urban contemporary music in the eighties. (And believe me, I'm not coming down on ya. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Nothing wrong with that.) The 1980's rap is NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING like the crap rap we hear anymore. Rap in the eighties was more rhythmic and danceable and downright fun. Back then, rap and hip-hop were not necessarily the same thing. For example, Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" was straight urban rap, but the message was easily understood without all the urban code words so often used today. Because "The Message" was about getting the message of life on the street out to people to LET them understand, rather than if you AIN"T THERE then you DON"T understand. Conversely, Afrika Bambaataa's "Planet Rock" and Jonzun Crew's "Pack Jam (Look out for the O.V.C.)" for example, were not rap at all in any fashion, but was pure hip-hop, an urban dance beat usually with the use of vocoders and sound effects. Many people consider "Old School" to be exclusively rap music, when in actuality rap was only a part, albeit substantial, of the whole Old School Movement.

: That whole thing had nothing to do with the topic, did it?

: Anyway, my point is that 80's music was livelier, more enjoyable, and MORE DIVERSE than anything the 90's have to offer. You make a great argument, Dan, and I agree that the 90's are indeed the eighties remade for the most part. Your points, as always, are very well taken.

: Your pal,

: Retroraider

Hey Retro,
Great points...my hats off to you. There is nothing better to me than someone who can show you side that you haven't seen (or forgotten)AND back it up with facts and examples.

It may have been where I grew up that we were so segregated.
I have really loved others responses to this topic.
Take it easy buddy,
Dan

P.S. I am still waiting to win the lottery so I can have a big 80's bash and fly you guys to it so we can all meet.(smile)

Well, I'm a Duranie who definitely enjoys listening to Ratt...in fact, I listen to Metallica's "Ride the Lightning" a lot, especially if I'm feeling down. I listen to a lot of styles of music, from the '60s (sometimes) to the '90s, and I do find stuff to like in all those decades. The '80s to me, though, were the pinnacle of musical ecstacy. You had Duran Duran (smiles), you had U2, you had INXS, you had all sorts of different bits of music that were not only good, they said something, too. Like, the other day I was analyzing this Duran Duran song, "Sound of Thunder" (it's on their debut album). I then realized that what Simon LeBon was trying to say, effectively, is that he equated teen-idolatry with crucifixion, injecting into the lyrics all sorts of references to the Jesus crucifixion story. Just try to find that kind of deep lyricalism in many of today's artists. Even Rammstein, whom I think is the only good thing to come out of 1998 (and there have been a LOT of things to come out of '98), doesn't have as complex a series of lyrics as, say, INXS. I am saddened that metal doesn't mean a thing except to possibly Korn (who, I'm suprised to have found out, listen to a lot of '80s especially Duran Duran). I do like stuff like Hole, and Hanson, and Liz Phair, and Paula Cole, and Barenaked Ladies, but I find that these artists I like mainly because they do sound like they could come out of the '80s. Even 90% of the '90s music I own belongs to artists who come from a different era or who sound like they come from a different era. For example, I have the Elastica release from '95. It sounds so much like a new wave/new romantic album that I have to double-check to see if it really is a '90s release. Same with a lot of today's rap artists. They do a lot of sampling, and so they're gonna be sounding like the earlier decades (especially the '70s and '80s) anyway.

BUT one thing I do NOT do, EVER, is enjoy MTV. The only show I'll watch from there is "Sifl and Olly"...and considering that that's only 30 minutes out of a 24-hour programming schedule, that's very little MTV watching. Nope, if I wanted to listen to new music I'd put on the radio, thank you very much.

I do agree with you guys, in essence. The '80s rocked, while the '90s for the most part depress me. And you're talking to a person who likes something like Rammstein.

Diane