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Subject: A shame about Michael
The Michael Jackson decline has been on my mind since the latest accusations began storming the media. In the early '80s Michael Jackson had the world in the palm of his hand. He was ubiquitous and everybody loved him. Even people who didn't like him liked him. No one could deny he had an incredible gift for songwriting, music, and dance. They couldn't keep "Thriller" in the stores. People bought three or four copies of it, coninually wearing out the grooves. Every teenage girl was in love with him. Michael was wholesome, too. 3D Michael Jackson at Disneyworld was a family affair. He even entered a disclaimer in the beginning of the "Thriller" video, stating he DID NOT believe in the occult.
The phenomenon of this special boyish man gripped the entire world.
Stories started to emerge about Michael sleeping in a hermetically sealed chamber; about his weird menagerie, about his bid to buy the Elephant Man, and so forth. We dismissed this behavior as merely eccentric. He's a genius after all, most geniuses are a bit strange.
He sold 40 million copies of "Thriller." Who would expect anyone to sustain stardom like that? Apparently, Michael did. Before "Bad" came out, I heard he wanted to sell 100 million copies. That's the first thing I found disturbing. It told me he was out of touch with reality.
Then came the skin depigmentation and the surgeries. Then there were the 1993 molestation charges. Michael slowly deteriorated to the sad state he's in now.
I'm not commenting on whether or not he did what he is accused of doing. I'm just saying it's sad how all the fame and money in the world cannot stop a person from despising himself. I see Michael's arrested development and his need for "transformation" as a kind of self-hatred. The man once adored by millions is a disturbed and lonely individual.
I resent the media taking such joy in the man's problems. He has come full circle from a revered pop star to a ridiculed circus freak, and that's a shame.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
I agree..it's a bummer. I can remember dancing to "Beat it" in my backyard when i was in 2nd grade. I am hoping he will be innocent but who knows. I still love his music. :-/
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Me too....very sad that all that money/fame couldn't fill the gap in his self esteem. (what do you expect when your own father makes fun of your looks)
I don't know if he's innocent or not, I keep going back and forth, but irregardless he definitely needs some counseling. :(
Quoting:
I am hoping he will be innocent but who knows. I still love his music. :-/
End Quote
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
I only feel bad that he was abused as a child.I saw the 60 minutes interview and you can tell he is very disturbed.But him joyfully saying"theres no problem with sleeping with kids"?He said he didnt have a childhood because he was on the road?So now hes a real life Peter Pan who doesnt want to grow up.Hes 45....Michael you cant have your childhood back and you cant live it for the rest of your life.You gotta move on and grow up!It would help you if you stop sleeping with children so maybe you wouldnt be ridiculed by people!That would improve you self esteem!
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:But him joyfully saying"theres no problem with sleeping with kids"?He said he didnt have a childhood because he was on the road?So now hes a real life Peter Pan who doesnt want to grow up.Hes 45....Michael you cant have your childhood back and you cant live it for the rest of your life.You gotta move on and grow up!It would help you if you stop sleeping with children so maybe you wouldnt be ridiculed by people!That would improve you self esteem!
End Quote
Much to his lawyer's dismay to be sure, he went on to mention pedophiles and Jack the Ripper in the same breath.
The 60 Minutes interview was evidence that Michael just doesn't get it.
I agree. I think he is mentally ill. He really needed direction and supervision in his Neverland life. Someone needed to be there to say, "It's great to invite kids to the ranch to do fun things, but we don't get into bed with them, Michael." Unfortunately, when you're a multi-multi-multi-millionaire, you get to do pretty much what you want, even if it leads to your own demise.
Remember in the '90s there was that DuPont heir who turned out to be paranoid schizophrenic? No one caught up with him until he murdered that wrestling coach at his compound. This DuPont had all kinds of bizarre stuff going on at his place. He hired a construction crew, for instance, to dig a network of secret tunnels under his property. When you're mentally ill and stinking rich, you can turn your delusions into reality.
MJ isn't schizophrenic or violent, but he certainly built castles in the sky AND lived in them.
MJ was vulnerable. I can't help conjecturing that certain money-grubbing individuals saw where Michael was vulnerable, and put their children in harm's way in order to cash in bigtime.
I say conjecture because there's no proof, and this is a controversial topic.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Yeah...he is delusional b/c of the illusions he's built in his life and as he's gone on he's gotten further and further away from reality.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
It's just a shame.He had a lot of gold records and multi-platinum hits and after the early 90's everything was a blur. >:(
Howard
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
I remember he really started to get weird around 1987. That was the year his Bad album came out, and that is when he looked noticeably different from the way he used to. The light skin, some obvious plastic surgery, the stories in the tabloids about sleeping in the oxygen chamber and buying the Elephant Man's remains. Jackson was becoming very strange in the Late 1980's, but his mega mega star power from the Early and Mid 80's was still recent enough to carry him.
But through the years of 1987 to 1992 during the years of Bad and Dangerous he could still pass for kinda normal. Eccentric or weird no doubt, but still OK with most people. He looked different, but still looked kinda OK and still pretty handsome. He had not yet gone totally overblown with the plastic surgery. And ofcourse, no one thought of him as a pedophile.
Michael Jackson changed in 1993 with the first molestation charge, and he has never been the same since '93.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Did anyone see in that documentary "Living with Michael Jackson" where he and the boy he's now accused of molesting were sitting next to each other on the couch and they were holding hands? I'm sure it was probably innocent enough, but it still looked a little strange to me. I'm still not sure really what happened at Neverland, but in any case he should have been spending his money on a good therapist instead of a plastic surgeon.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
I agree with you guys on this. This is really sad. I enjoyed his music back in the 80s but now when I look at him I just feel a tug at my heart-strings. You have put it very well. He seems to be out of touch with reality and I guess he is surrounded by yes-men who tell him he cannot do wrong. It was really sad on 60 minutes when he claimed his latest album was Nr 1 all over the world besides the USA and it was a conspiracy that it wasn't Nr 1 in the US...
And I think he really beleives in such nonsense and that all the world is busy with bringing him down ::) .
He seems to like to victimize himself. If his album isn't doing well it is never his fault. It is Sony's, it is a conspiracy, but no, never his fault. It is never that he didn't do good enough music. It is really sad that he became this pathetic freak...
I mean just look at a photo of the kid MJ and look at him now. Or look at a photo of him in the early 80s. You start to wonder where the "real" MJ is now...? Or is this the real one that we see now and the "old" one was just a vision? I miss that handsome black guy with the gorgeous smile. Why did he do it to himself? Why, Michael, why?!!!
I suppose he has some serious problems in the brain. He must have that if he really thinks he changed for the better with those plastic surgeries. Everybody can see he didn't besides him and his blind fanatics who think their MJ cannot do wrong.
As for the alligations, I don't know what to think just yet. I decided to wait for the trial to make up my mind, because now we don't really know what evidence either side has. There seems to be arguments for both sides right now.
For MJ:
- The family of the accuser seems to be quite messed-up with all the shoplifting past and such.
- The parents of the boy are divorced and his father says the mother is not reliable and the father of the boy thinks it is a set-up against MJ.
- The time-line of the alleged events is quite strange. Are they trying to tell us that although MJ has known this boy for a year then, he only started to molest him after the Bashir interview and after he got into the focus because of that interview and when the LA child care agency (don't know its exact name) investigated him? That time-line seems to be quite strange. Maybe they will explain it in the trial.
For the accuser:
- Why is MJ seeking the company of 12-14 year-old BOYS (never - or very rarely - girls!) so obsessively?
- Why do they sleep in MJ's bedroom? You can play with them, you can invite them etc. But why does MJ feel the necessity to share a bedroom with them? Especially after what happened in 1993.
- MJ lies a lot. I cannot really trust what he says, to be honest. He is obviously lying about his plastic surgery. I think he also lies about this whole "police brutality" thing. Maybe I will be proven wrong but right now I feel he lies about it. He simply likes to play the victim and would like to discredit the police that way. He would like to make it a racial issue in my opinion and they (he and his lawyers) will play the race card in court, I think. He would like to play the black victim physically abused and accused falsely by the evil white police. That's what I see behind this story. Don't forget, he likes to refer to conspiracies against him....
If he lies about his plastic surgery (which is obvious) and other things, then why should I beleive he tells the truth about these sleepovers?
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
i saw that bruise on his arm....its the most color he's had on his skin since the 80s... :D.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
I agree with you guys on this. This is really sad. I enjoyed his music back in the 80s but now when I look at him I just feel a tug at my heart-strings. You have put it very well. He seems to be out of touch with reality and I guess he is surrounded by yes-men who tell him he cannot do wrong. It was really sad on 60 minutes when he claimed his latest album was Nr 1 all over the world besides the USA and it was a conspiracy that it wasn't Nr 1 in the US...
I mean just look at a photo of the kid MJ and look at him now. Or look at a photo of him in the early 80s. You start to wonder where the "real" MJ is now...? Or is this the real one that we see now and the "old" one was just a vision? I miss that handsome black guy with the gorgeous smile. Why did he do it to himself? Why, Michael, why?!!!
I suppose he has some serious problems in the brain. He must have that if he really thinks he changed for the better with those plastic surgeries.End Quote
I know EXACTLY what you mean about wondering what happened to the "real Michael Jackson", and wondering which was the real version. The one from the early 80's? Or the freaky looking one we have known for the past 10 to 15 years? I think to myself the same thing too, like the current MJ is the real one, and that guy we knew from the early 80's was just some hazy dream that never existed in the first place. His Thriller video is very phrophetic about himself, a very handsome guy turning into a grotesque monster.
What's also weird about Michael Jackson is that he seemed more mature and adult like 20 years ago in 1983 and 1984 then he does now? Isn't that weird? But perhaps it's because I was a kid back then, and he naturally seemed more mature in those days. He looked 100 times more handsome as a Black guy then he does now. To this day, he remains the only dark skinned teen idol that I remember being rabidly popular in America with White girls and White women. I mean I rarely hear White women say they are attracted to Black or
dark skinned guys, but MJ had every woman on Earth swooning over him in the early-mid 80's. You watch MJ's "Rock With You" video, and you see an extremely handsome young man.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
What's also weird about Michael Jackson is that he seemed more mature and adult like 20 years ago in 1983 and 1984 then he does now? Isn't that weird? End Quote
I see your point. Don't they call that regression in psychiatric circles?
Michael Jackson has been performing most of his life and I wonder how much we really do know about Jackson. Maybe his whole life is a performance.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Some people think that the "Michael Jackson Backlash" in the U.S. is for his alleged relations with kids is the reason his records dont do well here.Maybe its because the music SUCKS?The rest of the world sees him as a saint and if he put out anything new thet would go crazy for it because its Michael Jackson... no matter how bad it is.But Americans are just more honest and the name means nothing its the music.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
MJ had the skin disease called viligo(sp). it affects some people of colour, it turns the pigment in their skin pale. thats why MJ wore the glove, because it started there first. i guess he felt he was losing his identity as a black man. maybe that was the catalyst of his problems. he seemed frail, it wouldn't take much to send someone so popular as MJ into the downward spiral of self-loathing and radical body alteration.
think about it, he was turning white, but had the facial characteristics of his african heritage. he had to turn "white".
i was never a fan of MJ, but i did respect his work. now we have to sit back and watch the fall of a titan.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
I agree completely with you people. MJ has been my all time favorite since I was a little girl in the early 80's.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Vitiligo is what MJ has. Sometimes called albinism, or piebald. Cause is unknown. It's generally benign, but can cause hyper-sensitivity to light. Repigmentation can be applied with methoxsalen, but this carries risks of central nervous system effects, burns, GI discomfort, and allergic reactions.
Superstardom forced MJ to retreat from society in order to get the privacy we take for granted. It's possible the isolation and lack of normalcy triggered a psychiatric downward spiral. Elvis got really weird and self destructive too.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
It really is unfathomonable how the cool Michael Jackson from 1984 morphed into the ghoulish looking (and acting) person we know today.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
MJ had the skin disease called viligo(sp). it affects some people of colour, it turns the pigment in their skin pale. thats why MJ wore the glove, because it started there first. i guess he felt he was losing his identity as a black man. maybe that was the catalyst of his problems. he seemed frail, it wouldn't take much to send someone so popular as MJ into the downward spiral of self-loathing and radical body alteration.
think about it, he was turning white, but had the facial characteristics of his african heritage. he had to turn "white".
i was never a fan of MJ, but i did respect his work. now we have to sit back and watch the fall of a titan.
End Quote
I don't buy this theory that Michael Jackson felt he was losing his identity as a black man because of the vitilgo. If he just had the disease vitilgo that would be understandable. But none of that rationalizes his countless plastic surgeries and subsequently his utterly grotesque apperance. To me it's clear that MJ has never been comfortable with being a black man, and he wishes he were white. His surgeries give a bit more of a Caucasoid apperance, and he has only dated and married white women and has two white kids. He's a poster child for black self hatred. He reaches out to the black community only when he feels he's in trouble.
Though I suspect that making MJ represent the black community would be like having Pee Wee Herman represent the white community. Most people have probably always seen MJ as race neutral, kinda like Bill Cosby, I don't think MJ has ever registered as "a black man" within the white community,....even back in the early and mid 80's when he actually looked like a black guy.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
I don't buy this theory that Michael Jackson felt he was losing his identity as a black man because of the vitilgo. If he just had the disease vitilgo that would be understandable. But none of that rationalizes his countless plastic surgeries and subsequently his utterly grotesque apperance. To me it's clear that MJ has never been comfortable with being a black man, and he wishes he were white. His surgeries give a bit more of a Caucasoid apperance, and he has only dated and married white women and has two white kids. He's a poster child for black self hatred. He reaches out to the black community only when he feels he's in trouble.
End Quote
Double ditto on that..
In addition I think MJ's peak in his music was Off The Wall, & Thriller was a just a brilliant mark on a plateau. From "Bad" on there really isn't in further advance or creative spark in his music. I think you start to see a downward spiral in his personality and life from there on..
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
I agree. Â It's when he thought he was the **** by the release of "Bad" and he had gotten an inflated head that he started heading downhill. Â How can ANYONE make music of any substance when a person is so full of him or herself? Â There's having the confidence enough to put on an over the top show--that's one thing, but it's completely different when there's the attitude as if people should buy an album or see a concert even if it's nothing but fart noises and rehashed dance moves. Â Look what's happened to Elton John: Â ever since the Lion King his music sounds like the Lion King--and he's been quoted as saying that a song that takes longer than 10 minutes to write isn't worth writing.
Fame and fortune sure can change people.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
To be honest I don't even enterily buy the vitilgo story. I mean I can beleive he has that. But it doesn't turn anyone from black to white. It causes white patches on the skin, but I have a hard time to beleive it in itself can turn black people to white the way he turned from black to white.
My theory is: he may really have that disease and as a performer, of course, he couldn't allow to have patches on his skin, so he started to lighten his skin plus use more and more make-up, so that the patches don't become visible. And when he lightened his skin he realized that the product he used can turn him white, so he started to over-use it - not because of his disease but also to turn white. Just like he over-did his plastic surgeries. I heard it started with a broken nose. Then he continued to do it and then over-did it...
But what is the inner reason he did it? Maybe Jason is right and he really is a self-hating black man who simply wanted to be white. I rather think however that it must have more complex reasons. Like Bobby wrote, I think MJ's whole life is a performance. He is simply OBSESSED with fame. He desperately wants to be the king of pop who is in the focus of people's attention all the time. If you only have the music, you cannot be in the spotlight all the time. When you don't have an album or a single out, you are not in the spotlight as a musician. So what does he do to stay interesting? He starts to do weird things.
When did we first hear about the vitilgo thing? I think at the beginning of the 90s in the Oprah interview. Up until then he let people guessing about what happened to him. That way, I think, he wanted to be mysterious. Then maybe, by the beginning of the 90s he realized it could backfire at him, because the black community won't buy his records any more. Then he came out with the vitilgo story to save what can be saved.
Wouldn't it have been more simple to come out in 1986 and say: "Look people, I have this disease and that's why my skin is changing. Stop guessing." But he didn't because at that time he wanted it to serve his career, to be mysterious, to be interesting for the media. Yes, his whole life is a performance and everything he does serves his obsession: to stay in the spotlight. But of course, you cannot play with the fire without getting burnt. Now, people don't see it as interesting any more but rather as pathetic.
I also have a theory that another reason behind his change may be the relationship with his father. He hates his father and maybe he wanted to make every feature disappear that reminds him of his father.
PS: By the way, I think his obsession with fame is the main thing that killed his music. It is sad because I regard him as one of the brightest talents in pop music history. But I think his obsession with being the "king of pop", having to be Nr 1 all the time killed his music. I think from 'Dangerous' on he didn't write songs any more that come from the inside, but he wrote songs that he thought are "trendy". Instead of Quincy Jones he started to work with "hip of the moment" producers to look "cool" with kids, the major record buying public. He desperately wanted to be Nr 1 on the charts, to top 'Thriller'. Instead of being a trend-setter he became a trend follower, and the "slowest reacting trend follower" at that - how a music critic put it. And I agree.
*Sigh* Even Michael Jackson was much cooler in the 80s....
;) :)
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
Though I suspect that making MJ represent the black community would be like having Pee Wee Herman represent the white community. Most people have probably always seen MJ as race neutral, kinda like Bill Cosby, I don't think MJ has ever registered as "a black man" within the white community,....even back in the early and mid 80's when he actually looked like a black guy.
End Quote
MJ's music was definitely identified as black music, and was loved as such. White America also identified MJ and Cosby as black men. What is underlying your assertion is that MJ and Cosby are perceived as NON-THREATENING black men. I won't expand on why, I think you can figure it out.
I also see the vitiligo situation as suspicious. He may indeed really have the disease, but he has yet to disclose the true nature of his radical transformation. His claim that he had only one plastic surgery is laughable.
I forgot who first pointed out the theme of transformation in MJ's work. I saw it on TV. It's not just the "Thriller" video, but also found in a host of other places in videos and lyrics.
I don't think Michael hated being black as much as Michael hated being Michael. Not even being the most adored celebrity in the world can override and indelible psychological complex impressed early in life.
MJ is a Jehova's Witness. His sudden embrace of the Nation of Islam smacks of desperation. Any port in a storm.
Is MJ "obsessed" with fame, or is that the only way he can relate to the world? Fame is all he's known since he was eight. While MJ is not a man of subtlety or understatement, the media certainly doesn't go out of his way to ignore him. It's a two-way street I suppose.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Happy New Year everyone! How would you like to be sitting on that jury who has to hear the case? They're going to have quite a challenging task ahead of them. I hope they don't have to be sequestered as long as the jury in the OJ trial was.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
It is a very difficult case I think, as it is impossible to have direct evidences in such a case (the only direct evidence could be if one of the parties confessed). So it is all down to who do you beleive and people - including the jurors - will inevitably base their judgements on subjective impressions. (I have to say MJ didn't do to well on 60 minutes to convince people he is trustworthy....)
I think the convincing of possible jurors already started in the media - on both sides. These "police brutality" claims by the Jackson camp are already part of this game in my opinion - to try to discredit the police in advance.
Also Tom Sneddon (the DA) hired a PR firm to help his communication. So the DA finds it also very important to work hard on convincing the public - thus possible future jurors.
I really hope the jurors will be people who can put aside all their prejudice pro or contra MJ. A case like this is already difficult in itself. It only makes it even more difficult that a famous person is involved about whom we all have already an image in our minds. And unluckily for MJ this image isn't too positive in most people's minds. He can mainly blame himself, of course, but I hope if he will be convited it will be because it was really properly proven (as much as it can be proven in such a case) that he is guilty and not for being weird or because the jurors don't like him and his music.
Of course, similarly it wouldn't be good either if it would be MJ fans who sat in the jury. It is a good question where can they find unbiased people for the jury in a case like this....? :o
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
So now,what's the next step for Michael?
What are we waiting for? :D
Howard
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
So now,what's the next step for Michael?
What are we waiting for? :D
Howard
End Quote
His trial starts on January 16th.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
His trial starts on January 16th.
End Quote
So this will prove whether he's guilty Or innocent? ???
Howard
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Not to be morbid or anything, and I don't wish anything to happen to MJ..but I hope someone close is keeping close watch on him, if you know what I mean.
People have been known to do some irrational things in dire times/times of crisis..
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
I wonder if perhaps he'd take his kids and flee to Europe or somplace like that - perhaps permanently.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
MJ is a Jehova's Witness. His sudden embrace of the Nation of Islam smacks of desperation. Any port in a storm.
End Quote
Being involved with Jehovah's Witnesses changes your whole perspective on life. From that perspective, I can appreciate Jackson's turmoil.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
So this will prove whether he's guilty Or innocent? ???
Howard
End Quote
I think there is never a guarantee that a trial 100% proves that someone is guilty or innocent.
But it will be a long process I think. How long did OJ Simpson's trial take? For months, I think. This will be the same.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Quoting:
I think there is never a guarantee that a trial 100% proves that someone is guilty or innocent.
But it will be a long process I think. How long did OJ Simpson's trial take? For months, I think. This will be the same.
End Quote
Let's hope he's innocent.
Howard
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
I also feel sorry for Michael's kids; they don't exactly have a normal childhood either. I can sort of understand MJ wanting to protect them from kidnappers (like having them wear masks out in public), but it's too bad all the same.
Another thing I noticed on that documentary was when he was feeding his third child (the one he calls Blanket), and he was feeding him and the baby had a veil over its face. He should be careful about that sort of thing or he could accidentally suffocate that child.
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Yeah, I agree about the kids. They don't have a normal childhood as you said and I think they don't have a normal father either. When I think of MJ's kids I have the feeling he "bought" them for himself to play daddy. It broke my heart when his son, Prince was asked by the reporter in the Bashir interview where his mother was and he answered: "I don't have a mother". Poor kid... :'(
Unfortunately MJ is not sane enough to realize he cannot play around with his kids' lives and he cannot bring him up in a Peter Pan environment while he is playing Peter Pan. Bringing up children means responsibility. If he says he is a child at heart (and he often behaves like that), how can he bring up children?
Regardless of whether MJ is guilty or not in sexual abuse of children the guy needs some serious help. Otherwise his kids will need serious help when they grow up and they won't thank him the way he brought them up... :(
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
Perhaps the "Thriller" album was a blessing and a curse to Michael Jackson? It was the most successful selling album in history. There was no way he could ever top that album, even though he kept trying, and it happened to him at a very young age...he was 24 years old in 1982.
So maybey that's why he went crazy in the late 80's?
Subject: Re: A shame about Michael
A lot of people might not remember this, but Michael Jackson was in a tv special when he was about 15 or 16 called "Free to be You and Me"; I can't recall what the name of the song was but he did a duet with Roberta Flack about never having to grow up. Seems kind of prophetic now, doesn't it? ???