I have been watching a lot of TV Land... which means a lot of The Jeffersons, Sanford & Son and only a little All in the Family.

As a kid I didn't really like these shows because they were loud and in the case of All in the Family it was totally above my head.  Now as an adult I can appreciate All in the Family for it's stellar writing and acting however, I still really hate The Jeffersons and Sanford & Son.

Here's what I noticed....

*All three  main characters are loud  - that's because they like theirs' is the only opinion that should be heard and hey if you have nothing of value to say say it loudly any way

*All three are bigots- but only Archie seems capable of changing his point of view.... Archie learns and Norman Lear gave him moments of sincerity- the closeups where Carroll O'Connor let the realization wash over his face.... I doubt Sherman Hemsley and Redd Foxxx were capable of that level of acting but they still could have had more moments like that....instead Redd just wanted to get the dirty joke past censors and Sherman just wanted to beat his chest and scream in Napoleonic  splendor.

The episode of All in the Family that strikes me as most sincere is the one where Archie learns that Stephanie is Jewish... she was told by her father not to let Archie know... when Archie does find out he gives her a Star of David necklace  and they share the sweetest moment to ever air in the course of the show....

I wish the other shows- especially the Jeffersons (since it was a spin off) were as sincere in their efforts.

I wouldn't call them racist shows.  It seems like racism is a word too often thrown around to the point that it's becoming difficult to see the difference between perceived racism and actual racism.

I know what you mean though.  The writing seemed the most dynamic in All in the Family.

I only call them racist because the main character in each is most definitely racist...  Archie has something to say about every group but like I said he seems to be able to adapt to new ideas.

I haven't seen an episode of The Jeffersons where George isn't saying something racist about whites

Fred Sanford hates whites and Puerto Rican... and I haven't seen an episode yet where they aren't brought up negatively.

I haven't seen every episode of the Js or S&S but I have seen enough to form a valid opinion.  I have seen almost every episode of All in the Family more than once....  because as an adult I get the show now. I appreciate and respect it... even in when if finds humor at the expense of others  it seems Archie is usually the butt of the joke because he doesn't always get it right away... The other two characters just aren't as vulnerable. 

I only call them racist because the main character in each is most definitely racist...  Archie has something to say about every group but like I said he seems to be able to adapt to new ideas.

I haven't seen an episode of The Jeffersons where George isn't saying something racist about whites

Fred Sanford hates whites and Puerto Rican... and I haven't seen an episode yet where they aren't brought up negatively.

I haven't seen every episode of the Js or S&S but I have seen enough to form a valid opinion.  I have seen almost every episode of All in the Family more than once....  because as an adult I get the show now. I appreciate and respect it... even in when if finds humor at the expense of others  it seems Archie is usually the butt of the joke because he doesn't always get it right away... The other two characters just aren't as vulnerable. 



Good points...  Even though I'm from a generation that came after these shows, I really enjoy the offensiveness of the humor in these shows because it feels more real.  There aren't many shows out right now that have characters with prejudiced (but realistic) views that aren't immediately demonized because of it.  Rescue Me is one of the few shows I've seen that takes on political correctness head on.  I give them mucho respect for that in these politically correct times.

I think it's kind of one of those things where you laugh at the character more than you laugh at what they're saying.  If you've ever seen "Blazing Saddles", it uses the n-word way more than most movies that come out today, but it was done in a offensively comical way that was intended to give a glimpse of the racism that the Wild West had.  Because of its blatant nature, I think it was one of Mel Brooks's best films.  The comedy had a "real" feel to it, where nothing was held back.  Thankfully, this was also a time when people seemed to have a better sense of humor about things as well.

I think maybe, for me, (although I was too young to realize this as a kid) there wasn't a whole lot of black representation on the air so when people who had no exposure to blacks saw these shows- I think they thought all black people were like this...  it feels like these shows contributed to the struggle for us trying to be seen as equals no different from other families in the world. 

I just wish people had watched shows like Julia and let that be the natural evolution of black representation on TV. 

It was a LONNNNGGGG time between Julia and Cosby and......

......if Cosby hadn't come along people might never have known... you know.

But again- this thinking was far too deep for me when I was a kid.  As a kid the shows were just loud....very very loud...and they still are.

Good points, but if someone is so easily manipulated into preconceptions that a TV show might make him/her think all black people are like the characters in question, I'd dare say he/she is likely to be manipulated by many things outside of TV.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that gullibility is like a more advanced version of ignorance.  Unfortunately, a lot of people fit this description.

unfortunately most of the country is this way.

The characters on Jeffersons, Good Times, and Sanford & Son were prejudiced against white people. George Jefferson used the word "honky" alot and that's just as bad as the "N" word.

The characters on Jeffersons, Good Times, and Sanford & Son were prejudiced against white people. George Jefferson used the word "honky" alot and that's just as bad as the "N" word.


I agree!  I just think it set a bad standard for the races....

To me, All in the Family made Archie Bunker look like an  IDIOT!
That's why it worked. It was funny for everyone!

Not really a racist show, but depicted some racsim from the mid 1800s was Kung Fu.  I watched it religiously when it aired back in the 70's and never noticed it until I got the DVD box sets of all 3 seasons and was amazed at the treatment of the Chinese immigrants in town, working on the railways, the African Americans and the Native Americans were all treated harshly.  What struck me was the names used for Caine throughout the series. He's called a slant eye, yellow skin, Chiney, Chinaman, by adults and children. In one episode some kids call him Mr Chinaman and Caine has to tell them twice that his name is Caine. Many times he was refused water or to use facilities that the townsfolk used. no wonder he was always kicking someone's ass  8)

Not really a racist show, but depicted some racsim from the mid 1800s was Kung Fu.  I watched it religiously when it aired back in the 70's and never noticed it until I got the DVD box sets of all 3 seasons and was amazed at the treatment of the Chinese immigrants in town, working on the railways, the African Americans and the Native Americans were all treated harshly.  What struck me was the names used for Caine throughout the series. He's called a slant eye, yellow skin, Chiney, Chinaman, by adults and children. In one episode some kids call him Mr Chinaman and Caine has to tell them twice that his name is Caine. Many times he was refused water or to use facilities that the townsfolk used. no wonder he was always kicking someone's ass  8)


i'd like to see Kung Fu again.

I know its the sixties  but I always liked the way the Munsters could be read as the "colored" family on the block.... they were different from the "standard" and people were always freaked out by them.  I got away with writing a paper about intergration being depicted on TV using The Munters and then using Bewitched as a representation of an "interracial" marriage.  :) 

i'd like to see Kung Fu again.

I know its the sixties  but I always liked the way the Munsters could be read as the "colored" family on the block.... they were different from the "standard" and people were always freaked out by them.  I got away with writing a paper about intergration being depicted on TV using The Munters and then using Bewitched as a representation of an "interracial" marriage.  :) 
that was very creative writing. I hope you got an A

that was very creative writing. I hope you got an A


I agree...I never thought of it that way before.

Thanks ~ actually I did get an A

I spent way too much time turning my obsession with TV into good grades... 
other A papers

Domestic Violence in I Love Lucy

The Domestic Goddess known as Roseanne

The "It Never Really Happened" reading of Thelma & Louise.... the prof wouldn't buy my theory but said I stated and supported my case very well

The Rebirthing of the Soldiers from Full Metal Jacket... it started with some crap about them being stripped of everything they knew, only to emerge from the barber shop like bald headed new born babies coming from the womb having to learn everything including how to walk and talk in this Brave New World called the Marines.  I BS'd my way through a lot of papers!  ;D

Thanks ~ actually I did get an A

I spent way too much time turning my obsession with TV into good grades... 
other A papers

Domestic Violence in I Love Lucy

The Domestic Goddess known as Roseanne

The "It Never Really Happened" reading of Thelma & Louise.... the prof wouldn't buy my theory but said I stated and supported my case very well

The Rebirthing of the Soldiers from Full Metal Jacket... it started with some crap about them being stripped of everything they knew, only to emerge from the barber shop like bald headed new born babies coming from the womb having to learn everything including how to walk and talk in this Brave New World called the Marines.  I BS'd my way through a lot of papers!  ;D
I think it's brilliant to work on something you know and love. the entertainment world of tv & movies. you know that stuff well and your BS probably dazzled the teachers  ;D  nice work

I have been watching a lot of TV Land... which means a lot of The Jeffersons, Sanford & Son and only a little All in the Family.

As a kid I didn't really like these shows because they were loud and in the case of All in the Family it was totally above my head.  Now as an adult I can appreciate All in the Family for it's stellar writing and acting however, I still really hate The Jeffersons and Sanford & Son.

Here's what I noticed....

*All three  main characters are loud  - that's because they like theirs' is the only opinion that should be heard and hey if you have nothing of value to say say it loudly any way

*All three are bigots- but only Archie seems capable of changing his point of view.... Archie learns and Norman Lear gave him moments of sincerity- the closeups where Carroll O'Connor let the realization wash over his face.... I doubt Sherman Hemsley and Redd Foxxx were capable of that level of acting but they still could have had more moments like that....instead Redd just wanted to get the dirty joke past censors and Sherman just wanted to beat his chest and scream in Napoleonic  splendor.

The episode of All in the Family that strikes me as most sincere is the one where Archie learns that Stephanie is Jewish... she was told by her father not to let Archie know... when Archie does find out he gives her a Star of David necklace  and they share the sweetest moment to ever air in the course of the show....

I wish the other shows- especially the Jeffersons (since it was a spin off) were as sincere in their efforts.




   Money..!  Nice breakdown...

   The appeal of All in the Family was in it's brutal sincerity, like you said.  Ever notice through all the racist rhetoric, skewed history and simplistic outlook, Archie always showed a measure of respect for young Lionel, if even in only a backhanded manner.  If anyone at all gave him pause, it was Lionel.  It was in Lionel where Archie meets his match...

   I'd also put Good Times up against All in the Family as celebrated social commentary...

  Money..!  Nice breakdown...

  The appeal of All in the Family was in it's brutal sincerity, like you said.  Ever notice through all the racist rhetoric, skewed history and simplistic outlook, Archie always showed a measure of respect for young Lionel, if even in only a backhanded manner.  If anyone at all gave him pause, it was Lionel.  It was in Lionel where Archie meets his match...

  I'd also put Good Times up against All in the Family as celebrated social commentary...


you're right... Lionel was the absolute antithesis of what Archie thought blacks were.  And it always confused him.

I don't disagree with you about Good Times but I hate Jimmie Walker so much the show is almost unwatchable to me... except for Janet of course  ;)

The shows that bothered me the most were the shows were a white, ususally male, showed the came in to "turn around" the lives of minorities, think White Shadow, or Different Strokes, or came into another culture and became the best personification of that culture.  Think A Man Called Horse. Kinda like white people are even better at being you than you are.  ::)

The shows that bothered me the most were the shows were a white, ususally male, showed the came in to "turn around" the lives of minorities, think White Shadow, or Different Strokes, or came into another culture and became the best personification of that culture.  Think A Man Called Horse. Kinda like white people are even better at being you than you are.  ::)


That's how I felt about movie Finding Forester. I didn't mind Dangerous Minds or even the latest installment Freedom Writers but there was something about Finding Forester that really annoyed the crap out of me!!!  The kid is accused of plagiarism but now that Forrester has come out of seclusion to defend well then the kid must be innocent!  Yeah I hate that crap!

The shows that bothered me the most were the shows were a white, ususally male, showed the came in to "turn around" the lives of minorities, think White Shadow, or Different Strokes, or came into another culture and became the best personification of that culture.  Think A Man Called Horse. Kinda like white people are even better at being you than you are.  ::)

That seemed to be the case for most sitcoms that had any minorities families in the 70-80's.

What was so annoysome about Good Times was Jimmie Walker's role as J.J. (but only in hindsight, because at the time he was very funny and popular) and the effect it had on minority family sitcoms thereafter.

Looking back at it, Good Times was one of the few black family sitcoms that had a "intact" family with two parents, at least at the start. But John Amos left the show after disputes with the writers and producers over the his role vs the clown/jester role of J.J. The show then reverted to was to become the standard with any minority children in it, that they were from broken family missing their father. It was only by the help of a unrelated family or male (usually white) that steps in to raise these kids, that minority children survived or even existed to the American TV viewing public.

I think these shows, and the prevailing view that minority families were somehow incapable or unwilling to raise their children without help from outside sources was a hell of a lot more "racist" and damaging than Fred Sanford or George Jefferson calling someone "honky".

That seemed to be the case for most sitcoms that had any minorities families in the 70-80's.

What was so annoysome about Good Times was Jimmie Walker's role as J.J. (but only in hindsight, because at the time he was very funny and popular) and the effect it had on minority family sitcoms thereafter.

Looking back at it, Good Times was one of the few black family sitcoms that had a "intact" family with two parents, at least at the start. But John Amos left the show after disputes with the writers and producers over the his role vs the clown/jester role of J.J. The show then reverted to was to become the standard with any minority children in it, that they were from broken family missing their father. It was only by the help of a unrelated family or male (usually white) that steps in to raise these kids, that minority children survived or even existed to the American TV viewing public.

I think these shows, and the prevailing view that minority families were somehow incapable or unwilling to raise their children without help from outside sources was a hell of a lot more "racist" and damaging than Fred Sanford or George Jefferson calling someone "honky".




  Yeah, I agree with you's about JJ Walker being a little rambunctious...

  I don't pretend to know what life was like for an inner city black person at that time.  The lesson taught by Good Times is a different one from that of All in the Family.  All in the Family gives us naive conservatism in Archie up against equally naive liberalism in Meathead balanced by Edith's innocence and common sense.  Edith calls 'em as she see 'em.  Archie and Meathed call 'em as they think they're obliged to...

  Good Times shows us that even in the most deplorable conditions (such as they're portrayed in the show), the dilapidated and crime ridden projects, a family can still retain the bond of love, caring and, above all, dignity.  I think you're right, the show did lose it's way in later episodes as many shows do...

The characters on ...Good Times....were prejudiced against white people. .

I wouldn't say that...except perhaps for obviously "bad" characters, but certainly not the Evans family. But Good Times I think was racist in the depiction of the lunkheaded and sometimes lazy J.J.

I wouldn't say that...except perhaps for obviously "bad" characters, but certainly not the Evans family. But Good Times I think was racist in the depiction of the lunkheaded and sometimes lazy J.J.




I agree... they had some misconceptions and stereotypes about whites... they were basically guilty of the same thing I accuse the show of being. They based their perceptions of whites purely on stereotypes and the show itself helped in perpetrating black stereotypes to the country.

They did make fun of whites not understanding their world.  This wasn't really racist but it made whites look kinda stupid and unhip.... personally- not growing up in the ghetto myself most of the stuff they made fun of I had to figure out later as an adult because my experience wasn't theirs so I didn't get a lot of it at the time.

The first few episodes of Chico and the Man were terribly racist, but then they finally seemed to find their footing and it became a pretty good show.

I still like to watch Good Times, I thought it was a very well written show.  Sometimes when they constantly ridiculed Bookman (the fat janitor) that kinda got on my nerves but oh well, I guess you can't have everything.

The first few episodes of Chico and the Man were terribly racist, but then they finally seemed to find their footing and it became a pretty good show.

I still like to watch Good Times, I thought it was a very well written show.  Sometimes when they constantly ridiculed Bookman (the fat janitor) that kinda got on my nerves but oh well, I guess you can't have everything.



I was just going to mention about Chico and the Man-as people have describing "white man helps minority". Correct me if I am wrong but were there any other showed in the 70s that featured Latinos?  The only one that I can really think of was "Fish" (there may have been a Latino kid in that crowd) -but then again, you have "white man helps minority". At least in the 50s, you had I Love Lucy with a Latino (Ricky) owning his own club and was basically a success.


Cat

I was just going to mention about Chico and the Man-as people have describing "white man helps minority". Correct me if I am wrong but were there any other showed in the 70s that featured Latinos?  The only one that I can really think of was "Fish" (there may have been a Latino kid in that crowd) -but then again, you have "white man helps minority". At least in the 50s, you had I Love Lucy with a Latino (Ricky) owning his own club and was basically a success.


Cat


And then there was

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/z/zorro1.jpg

And then there was

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/z/zorro1.jpg



Ah yes, how could I forget about Zorro. At least the Latinos had a superhero.  :) :)

Again, in the 50s, (which I'm sure very few here will remember) "My name, Jose Jimenez."



Cat

Ah yes, how could I forget about Zorro. At least the Latinos had a superhero.  :) :)

Again, in the 50s, (which I'm sure very few here will remember) "My name, Jose Jimenez."



Cat


Guy Williams, who played Zorro, was white

I was just going to mention about Chico and the Man-as people have describing "white man helps minority". Correct me if I am wrong but were there any other showed in the 70s that featured Latinos? 

Welcome Back Kotter came to mind, they kinda run the gamut of social groups.  I'm sure there were a few others but not off the top of my head.

I was just going to mention about Chico and the Man-as people have describing "white man helps minority". Correct me if I am wrong but were there any other showed in the 70s that featured Latinos?  The only one that I can really think of was "Fish" (there may have been a Latino kid in that crowd) -but then again, you have "white man helps minority". At least in the 50s, you had I Love Lucy with a Latino (Ricky) owning his own club and was basically a success.


Cat


Oddly enough the network execs didn't want to have Desi because they thought the audience would be offended... Audiences loved Ricky tho... plus they got a lot of jokes out of Ricky's problems with the english language.

Guy Williams, who played Zorro, was white



Which is why many don't share the nostalgia of the 50s.  While white actor Guy Madison was playing Latino Zorro, Latino baseball player Ted Williams was playing white baseball player...Ted Williams.

I was just going to mention about Chico and the Man-as people have describing "white man helps minority". Correct me if I am wrong but were there any other showed in the 70s that featured Latinos?  The only one that I can really think of was "Fish" (there may have been a Latino kid in that crowd) -but then again, you have "white man helps minority". At least in the 50s, you had I Love Lucy with a Latino (Ricky) owning his own club and was basically a success.


Cat


Frank Ponchorello the itallian latino chippie  ;D  CHiPs

Oddly enough the network execs didn't want to have Desi because they thought the audience would be offended... Audiences loved Ricky tho... plus they got a lot of jokes out of Ricky's problems with the english language.


"Loocy, I dun't wat jew goin' dun to ze club".  :D ;D ;D ;D



Cat

"Loocy, I dun't wat jew goin' dun to ze club".  :D ;D ;D ;D



Cat


Pee-sy-ky-atryst I liked that one. . .

i also liked the one where Ricky told little ricky the story of little red riding hood.

Frank Ponchorello the itallian latino chippie   ;D  CHiPs


I have nothing but respect for Ponch.  He saved my life back in the day.  Plus he made it look cool to be a Highway Patrol.  ;D

George Jefferson used the word "honky" alot and that's just as bad as the "N" word.


You know that isn't true.

Perhaps in theory, two racial epithets should be equally offensive, but this isn't algebra. In real life, the N word is way more offensive than honky. We've both proven it just here. You typed honky out without even thinking twice. You didn't say 'The ''H word'''. But you wouldn't dare spell out the N word. Ever. That proves it.

Good points...  Even though I'm from a generation that came after these shows, I really enjoy the offensiveness of the humor in these shows because it feels more real.  There aren't many shows out right now that have characters with prejudiced (but realistic) views that aren't immediately demonized because of it.  Rescue Me is one of the few shows I've seen that takes on political correctness head on.  I give them mucho respect for that in these politically correct times.

I think it's kind of one of those things where you laugh at the character more than you laugh at what they're saying.  If you've ever seen "Blazing Saddles", it uses the n-word way more than most movies that come out today, but it was done in a offensively comical way that was intended to give a glimpse of the racism that the Wild West had.  Because of its blatant nature, I think it was one of Mel Brooks's best films.  The comedy had a "real" feel to it, where nothing was held back.  Thankfully, this was also a time when people seemed to have a better sense of humor about things as well.



Richard Pryor wrote some of the script of "Blazing Saddles" and Pryor was supposed to play the Sherriff.

This is a great topic Snozberries. When I first joined this forum I commented to you how loud shows like Good Times were. I mean when the reruns would come on late night I would literally get woken up out of my sleep because it was so loud. Good Times (hate to pick on the show..) was downright depressing...I liked the Jeffersons but it seemed that Florence's role as a maid seemed silly in the later years because it was clear that she had evolved so much...not to mention that  she was way better looking than Weezy.

The racism that I want to still see eliminated is the depiction of the dark skinned female as the wise cracking in your face type of character....
Take a look at Girlfriends if you dont think the stereotype still exists. Joan is very different from Maya yet they made Maya and (the chick that left the show) similar. Yet Joan and the Lisa Bonet look alike (bad with the character names) share more similarities.

Which is why many don't share the nostalgia of the 50s.  While white actor Guy Madison was playing Latino Zorro, Latino baseball player Ted Williams was playing white baseball player...Ted Williams.


I enjoy watching Speedy Gonales cartoons (except the later ones with Daffy Duck, but that's for being cheaply animated and corny). As a hispanic, I  don't see anything degrading since he's quick. 




As for stereotypes, consider the time it was made and there's still stereotypes on tv today.

Look at "Will & Grace", "Sopranos", rap videos, 'Ms Swan' from "Mad TV" (Played by a white woman), Comedy Central, etc.

This is a great topic Snozberries. When I first joined this forum I commented to you how loud shows like Good Times were. I mean when the reruns would come on late night I would literally get woken up out of my sleep because it was so loud. Good Times (hate to pick on the show..) was downright depressing...I liked the Jeffersons but it seemed that Florence's role as a maid seemed silly in the later years because it was clear that she had evolved so much...not to mention that  she was way better looking than Weezy.

The racism that I want to still see eliminated is the depiction of the dark skinned female as the wise cracking in your face type of character....
Take a look at Girlfriends if you dont think the stereotype still exists. Joan is very different from Maya yet they made Maya and (the chick that left the show) similar. Yet Joan and the Lisa Bonet look alike (bad with the character names) share more similarities.



You're the reason I started this topic. . .  ;D  (BTW I MISS YOU!!!!!!)

I remembered that thinking that they were loud when I was young but after reading your response in the other thread I started watching them more closely. I have been watching a lot of All in the Family over the last couple of years because I like it so much. I would occasionally catch a Good Times because I don't like it that much but I don't hate it so its sometimes the lesser of all evils on the air... and as you know my TV is never off (unless I'm not home).  However, I have always turned off The Jeffersons and Sanford & Son (after the theme song cuz I like the themes) because I really detest those shows.  But for you I started watching them again and noticed just how offensive they are to me!

I know what you mean its crazy that it still exists in 2007 2008  ;)  but it does. 

I enjoy watching Speedy Gonales cartoons (except the later ones with Daffy Duck, but that's for being cheaply animated and corny). As a hispanic, I  don't see anything degrading since he's quick. 




As for stereotypes, consider the time it was made and there's still stereotypes on tv today.

Look at "Will & Grace", "Sopranos", rap videos, 'Ms Swan' from "Mad TV" (Played by a white woman), Comedy Central, etc.





those things drive me nuts too.... especially Mrs Swann from Mad Tv.... I accept Will & Grace's stereotypes only because they balance them out... Jack was not representing all gay men he was just one guy and I know gay guys like that so it wasn't so bad. The truth is they had all kinds of gay characters some who went totally against stereotypes.

They also were honest in the fact that the characters were pretty shallow, petty people so from their POV we weren't going to see others any deeper than they did. It made sense to me.

I enjoy watching Speedy Gonales cartoons (except the later ones with Daffy Duck, but that's for being cheaply animated and corny). As a hispanic, I  don't see anything degrading since he's quick. 







Speedy Gonzalez was fast but they had to include his cousin Slowpoke Rodriguez who went the other extreme.



Cat

I miss you too Snozberries !!! Sanford and Son is another depressing looking show. I was never a big fan. Although I did like the episode where Lamont was going to marry the heavy set woman because he thought she had money. I should say Fred wanted Lamont to marry the heavy set woman...

It is sad that people watch these show and think that is the way African Americans are supposed to behave and the disappointment that often follows when you are not speaking slang every other word ...or rotating your neck...but I digress...

I LOVE Will & Grace !! That show has some of the best lines ever. For instance I love when Gregory Hines made a couple of appearances on the show..at first Karen thought he was an intruder..then Gregory Hines says: "For the last time Im not the guy from Designing Women or the gardener...(not sure if he said gardener or plumber.."

Another favorite was in Grace's slacker sister came into town. One of her lines was" when i woke up in the morning in the cashier's apartment..." (following a drinking binge..)

Sometimes i think the gay jokes were too often..we get it already !!! how many times can they say" "its like the gay...." I miss that show.

My new favorite stereotype show..."Reno 911" the one African American female cop is soo stereotypical but its VERY FUNNY.

I think you're all fudgeed up.

Richard Pryor wrote some of the script of "Blazing Saddles" and Pryor was supposed to play the Sherriff.


...although Mel Brooks sheepishly admits on the DVD commentary that they hired him just so they could get away with it... ::)

I miss you too Snozberries !!! Sanford and Son is another depressing looking show. I was never a big fan. Although I did like the episode where Lamont was going to marry the heavy set woman because he thought she had money. I should say Fred wanted Lamont to marry the heavy set woman...

It is sad that people watch these show and think that is the way African Americans are supposed to behave and the disappointment that often follows when you are not speaking slang every other word ...or rotating your neck...but I digress...

I LOVE Will & Grace !! That show has some of the best lines ever. For instance I love when Gregory Hines made a couple of appearances on the show..at first Karen thought he was an intruder..then Gregory Hines says: "For the last time Im not the guy from Designing Women or the gardener...(not sure if he said gardener or plumber.."

Another favorite was in Grace's slacker sister came into town. One of her lines was" when i woke up in the morning in the cashier's apartment..." (following a drinking binge..)

Sometimes i think the gay jokes were too often..we get it already !!! how many times can they say" "its like the gay...." I miss that show.

My new favorite stereotype show..."Reno 911" the one African American female cop is soo stereotypical but its VERY FUNNY.






Will and Grace is very quotable we need more shows like that!!!!

much as I hate to admit it I saw an episode of Jeffersons that showed a redeemable side of George

Louise learns that George sends money every month to an apartment in Harlem.... she thinks George had an affair and fathered the child who lives there.
Turns out George grew up in that very apartment and promised to help out the next family living there if he ever made something of himself.

Still hate the Jeffersons and I will be glad when TV land rotates out of the schedule but it was nice to see this side of a one dimensional character

Oh , the good ole' days when "honky" could be said on TV without all the hubbub . I find it funny as hell being a honky myself .

The characters on Jeffersons, Good Times, and Sanford & Son were prejudiced against white people. George Jefferson used the word "honky" alot and that's just as bad as the "N" word.

In theory, this might be true.
In reality, it's ridiculous.
Ask white people "If a black person calls you 'honky', are you offended?"... at most, 20% say 'yes'.
Ask black people "If a white person calls you 'ni**er', are you offended?"... at least, 90% say 'yes'.

"All In The Family" was brilliant before they jumped the shark (Mike & Gloria moving to California).
Norman Lear had big enough balls to show America that Archie's way of thinking was wrong on many levels.
Combine that with Carroll O'Conner's genius acting and everybody learned something without ever knowing they were being taught,

Personally, I loved shows that were extremely non-PC...Okay, so some were racist, however they were still funny, and today theyre funny because we see how idiotic these biggoted characters were.

One of the greatest TV shows EVER IMHO, was Love Thy Neighbour, the British TV show. The racism was both ways, often originally perpetrated against Bill (the black neighbour), but then Bill gives as good as he gets against Eddie (the white neighbour)...And both men were shown to be rather silly when viewed alongside their long suffering wives.

An Aussie racist TV show was Kingswood Country...Though Ted Bullpit was more backward than biggoted.







AN

Personally, I loved shows that were extremely non-PC...Okay, so some were racist, however they were still funny, and today theyre funny because we see how idiotic these biggoted characters were.

One of the greatest TV shows EVER IMHO, was Love Thy Neighbour, the British TV show. The racism was both ways, often originally perpetrated against Bill (the black neighbour), but then Bill gives as good as he gets against Eddie (the white neighbour)...And both men were shown to be rather silly when viewed alongside their long suffering wives.

An Aussie racist TV show was Kingswood Country...Though Ted Bullpit was more backward than biggoted.







AN


I'm not familiar with that show.

"Good Times was one of the few black family sitcoms that had a "intact" family with two parents, at least at the start. But John Amos left the show after disputes with the writers and producers over the his role vs the clown/jester role of J.J. The show then reverted to was to become the standard with any minority children in it, that they were from broken family missing their father. "

TV is not a subject in which my memories are contiguous, because my Mama wouldn't allow one in the house.  I do seem to recall from a college course, however, that the reason why John Amos left was a marketing decision that the "broken" black family would sell higher ratings on the part of production executives.

I did see a fair amount of Sanford & Son in the eighties because of my work hours and lunch break (03.00).  As a person who was white in a black neighborhood (as in anyone besides my immediate family or the Mexicans next door), I always found Sanford & Son to be funny on the level of taking human types we all knew from experience (old picker with a nasty truck cruising town the night before garbage collection?  Three of them within a two block radius, and more than once I rode along...) and setting them against the "new" generation.  Remember the S&S episode about Ripple and Onion Stew? 

Be honest about this, now. How many of y'all have gotten just a little past politely buzzed on either Ripple, Wild Irish Rose, Boone's Farm Tickle Pink or the Mad Dog 20/20?

"Good Times was one of the few black family sitcoms that had a "intact" family with two parents, at least at the start. But John Amos left the show after disputes with the writers and producers over the his role vs the clown/jester role of J.J. The show then reverted to was to become the standard with any minority children in it, that they were from broken family missing their father. "

TV is not a subject in which my memories are contiguous, because my Mama wouldn't allow one in the house.  I do seem to recall from a college course, however, that the reason why John Amos left was a marketing decision that the "broken" black family would sell higher ratings on the part of production executives.

I did see a fair amount of Sanford & Son in the eighties because of my work hours and lunch break (03.00).  As a person who was white in a black neighborhood (as in anyone besides my immediate family or the Mexicans next door), I always found Sanford & Son to be funny on the level of taking human types we all knew from experience (old picker with a nasty truck cruising town the night before garbage collection?  Three of them within a two block radius, and more than once I rode along...) and setting them against the "new" generation.  Remember the S&S episode about Ripple and Onion Stew? 

Be honest about this, now. How many of y'all have gotten just a little past politely buzzed on either Ripple, Wild Irish Rose, Boone's Farm Tickle Pink or the Mad Dog 20/20?




not quite following your logic... I mean I have never lived in a predominately black neighborhood so I can't begin to speak to the experience...likewise- I detest the images being portrayed as tho that's the only way it is.  I know a lot of black people some who's actions sometimes embarrass me but most do not.

I would have been embarrassed to associate with a bigot like Fred or a loud mouthed bigot like George.  I don't excuse Archie Bunker's ideals either... I think his character was portrayed in a more sympathetic manor than  the other two.  I actually like Archie he has some redeeming qualities and towards the end he seemed to recognize that maybe he was wrong (again I site the episode where he learns Stephanie is Jewish... Stephanie was told not to tell Archie because then he would hate her...the softness that washed over him is not only a tribute to the late, great Carroll O'Connor but also great writing!)

Many shows (not just black ones) from the 60s  featured single parent households.

Andy Griffith show (presumed widower tho it was never mentioned)
My Three Sons  (widower)
Beverly Hillbillies (widower?)
Courtship of Eddie's Father (widower) 

obviously Divorce was still taboo.

Julia (widow her husband died in Viet Nam)
and then What's Happenin' in the 70's

The thing is... with Good Times, John Amos left not for a marketing decision but...as you stated because Amos could not reconcile with the buffoonish way Jimmie Walker portrayed.

I would like Good Times except I hate Jimmie Walker so much he makes the show almost unbearable for me to digest.

They had pretty good story lines and dealt with serious subject matter. They also tried to tackle some of the problems that faced families living in the projects.  They weren't racist on Good Times... they had some stereotypical characters like the pimp and like "Lenny" who always had "Plenty".  But really what they had was a different way at looking at cultures.  I remember an episode where Michael writes a letter to the paper about the struggles that faced families living in the projects. James was afraid they family would get kicked out for being so vocal... a man from Housing comes down in person (of course he's white) and has all of these preconceived ideas of what it will be like. The whole time whenever he says something stupid or shortsighted everyone makes faces about it...but the truth is...and I think the message is there in subtle ways...whenever the family talks about whites they make the same kind of assumptions.

I think Good Times (despite JJ) was a beacon that shined a spotlight and made people aware of socio-economic and cultural differences while at the same showing the world that really they weren't all that different either.

Sorry 'bout the jump in subject matter.  The part about Good Times should have been in one posting, while the one about Sanford & Sons should have been in another.  I never thought much of Good Times, though, and here's why. 

Fred and Lamont, seemed not too far off from some of our experiences.  But as for the Good Times material, I attended school with project kids and Good Times did not even come close to some of the things we saw (even before getting to the JJ Walker character--not my fave by any means). 

The kids from the PJ would come out on cold mornings wearing a towel like a shawl and a pair of old socks for mittens because (and I promise that I am making none of this up)

a.  It wasn't their turn to wear the coat
b.  Mama's last boyfriend had taken all the coats with him when they broke up or
c.  Someone else in the project had stolen the coats off the clothesline

More than once we would hear from another kid at the busstop that "X isn't gonna make it in today, they took him to the hospital after the fight..." or "...the social worker's gonna have to bring him today.  Something bad went down last night with his Mama/Grandma/Aunt."  We may have been scruffy, scrawny, and a bit rough around the edges, but we almost never had that kind of difficulty on my side of the school district. 

As for Fred's bigotry, there was a saying from my childhood that here in the South we hated each other's race but did OK person to person, whereas in the North, they just hate each other, period, and that's the way I felt about both Fred Sanford's character as well as Archie Bunker--(even though he is a New Yorker--my context was still that of the South when I was watching that stuff. The second half didn't come into play until I went to grad school in the Northeast)


Good Times didn't do much to capture the stench of public housing, from my point of view at the time, but if one didn't grow up around it, I guess the show would have been an eye-opener.  Anyway, I have enjoyed reading your comments, and I certainly find it interesting to hear what I would assume relatively normal middle-class white kids saw, as opposed to my --admittedly skewed-- experience.  Just my $0.02

PS  The lines in my last post at the top were quoted from someone else's post (might have been yours).  I just messed up the the quotation procedure.

Sorry 'bout the jump in subject matter.  The part about Good Times should have been in one posting, while the one about Sanford & Sons should have been in another.  I never thought much of Good Times, though, and here's why. 

Fred and Lamont, seemed not too far off from some of our experiences.  But as for the Good Times material, I attended school with project kids and Good Times did not even come close to some of the things we saw (even before getting to the JJ Walker character--not my fave by any means). 

The kids from the PJ would come out on cold mornings wearing a towel like a shawl and a pair of old socks for mittens because (and I promise that I am making none of this up)

a.  It wasn't their turn to wear the coat
b.  Mama's last boyfriend had taken all the coats with him when they broke up or
c.  Someone else in the project had stolen the coats off the clothesline

More than once we would hear from another kid at the busstop that "X isn't gonna make it in today, they took him to the hospital after the fight..." or "...the social worker's gonna have to bring him today.  Something bad went down last night with his Mama/Grandma/Aunt."  We may have been scruffy, scrawny, and a bit rough around the edges, but we almost never had that kind of difficulty on my side of the school district. 

As for Fred's bigotry, there was a saying from my childhood that here in the South we hated each other's race but did OK person to person, whereas in the North, they just hate each other, period, and that's the way I felt about both Fred Sanford's character as well as Archie Bunker--(even though he is a New Yorker--my context was still that of the South when I was watching that stuff. The second half didn't come into play until I went to grad school in the Northeast)


Good Times didn't do much to capture the stench of public housing, from my point of view at the time, but if one didn't grow up around it, I guess the show would have been an eye-opener.  Anyway, I have enjoyed reading your comments, and I certainly find it interesting to hear what I would assume relatively normal middle-class white kids saw, as opposed to my --admittedly skewed-- experience.  Just my $0.02

PS  The lines in my last post at the top were quoted from someone else's post (might have been yours).  I just messed up the the quotation procedure.






I enjoy the dialouge its nice to get another take on the whole thing.

for the record my father was born in DC and most of his family lived in the projects something like 5 kids in one room. I stayed with them for a weekend when we were stationed there but was too young to understand or remember the experience. What I do remember is that the family was jealous because my dad was in the military. we had military housing...four bedrooms for 3 people. I was an only child...and spoiled I admit it. I had a bedroom and a room just for my toys.

My second cousin (actually confusing family dynamics might make her my dad's aunt even tho she was 11)  was invited to stay with us for the summer. My father hoped that exposure to a different lifestyle might give her a new perspective and something to strive for....instead she tormented me. Every day my parents would leave the house by 8am...by ten I was locked in the bathroom because I was tired of getting my ass kicked because my parents could afford to buy me stuff.  Now I was spoiled but not selfish or snotty. I wanted to play with her...I was 9 and wanted her to like me but instead she detested me and hit me, scratched me and forced me to hide in the bathroom while she broke all my stuff. She would also break stuff in the house and blame it on me...fortunately my parents knew I wasn't that destructive and took her back to the projects.... I never saw her again. Sadly 6 kids later she left them with their fathers...although her brother raised 3 of them and she spent the 80s and 90 addicted to drugs... I have no idea where she is...her sister got clean but I don't know about her....

I don't know why I just told you all of this... mainly to say that I, just in case I left that impression... am not a middle class white kid.  I grew up with them and went to school with them but I was reminded everyday that I didn't fit in....  in high school things were better. My experience was similar to Tooties on Facts of Life. I know your mama didn't allow a tv in the house but perhaps you have since become familiar with the show.  However, it was a long road to high school.  I spent most of the eighth grade isolated because racial slurs were thrown at me every day...no matter how much I tried to convince people I had never been to Africa I could not deter them from inisisting I go back there.  ;)

Anyway....we had different experiences but in a way we come from the same place... I just feel like shows like Sanford and son did little to aid in reshaping America's perception of black folks and its too bad because the civil rights struggle was a long hard one but really it took until 1984 until there was alternate representation of black people on TV.


as for your experience with people from the projects... I don't want to defend good times for the reasons I previously stated but I would be remiss if I didn't mention that stuff like you described was happening in the building all of the time...just rarely to the Evans'  Willeona would always burst in the apartment spouting the latest 'news' and it was usually something similar to what you mentioned... So and so is eating dog food, the episode I referenced had the man from the housing authority stuck in the building because a turf war was starting and the taxi hauled ass out of there.  Michael had his coat stolen in one episode  ;)  The problem is you have to really pay attention to subtext of the show to recognize these moments and JJ was so loud you usually missed them because of it.















 

I appreciate your response, Snozberries. 

One of my college buddies and I used to laugh and commiserate about the the whole project experience--he was nominally black, although I would say that he, too, had a definite shade of OD green in that skin tone (I'm kinduva pink-OD-brown social highlights type myself, and my family ranges from just this side of albino to--in their own words-- "blue gum, not dumb" ).  Basically, we agreed that the first rule of the project was to kick any *ss you think you can now, because it's gonna be your turn next. 

The two of us fell into this discussion because in a sociology class (share those experiences--this is a stigma free zone), we both talked about how the PJ kids would pick a fight over anything anytime that they thought the authorities weren't watching.  Prior to our meeting each other, I thought it was cuz I was white.  He thought it was because he wasn't black enough, then we both realized that three of the worst offenders were considerably lighter than he was. 

You and I are definitely among the lucky ones.  We saw it, and it washed up against us, but we weren't thrown in and left to swim through it.

God's Peace

Interesting because Sanford and Son and All in the Family were based on UK sitcoms Steptoe and Son and 'Till death us do part. I haven't seen the US equivalents but really want to. Steptoe and Son were caucasian so race or racism was never an issue in our version, the issue was the torturous dynamic relationship between an ambitious son and a dependent father.

Now 'Till death us do part is something a bit weird because they say the writer Johnny Speight was totally against Alf Garnet's (UK equivalent to Archie Bunker) racist attitude and became very dissapointed that the viewers loved Garnet because his intention was to satirize and lampoon him not make likeable.

The only flaw in this is that Speight doesn't make liberal 'scouse git' Michael much agreeable either.

When you watch 'Till death us do part, Garnet is such a commanding force that you really believe Speight agrees with what he is saying.

Oh, I haven't watched this but forgot equally controversial sitcom 'Love thy neighbour' about a black and a white man living next door to each other. The white man called the other bloke 'Sambo' and the other bloke retorted 'Honky' back. Amazingly enough, Love thy neighbour is out on DVD.

To a lesser extent, prejudice appears in 'Rising Damp' where bigotted landlord Rigsby regularly ridicules his black tennant Philip Smith who claimed to be the son of an African chief.

Interesting because Sanford and Son and All in the Family were based on UK sitcoms Steptoe and Son and 'Till death us do part. I haven't seen the US equivalents but really want to. Steptoe and Son were caucasian so race or racism was never an issue in our version, the issue was the torturous dynamic relationship between an ambitious son and a dependent father.

Now 'Till death us do part is something a bit weird because they say the writer Johnny Speight was totally against Alf Garnet's (UK equivalent to Archie Bunker) racist attitude and became very dissapointed that the viewers loved Garnet because his intention was to satirize and lampoon him not make likeable.

The only flaw in this is that Speight doesn't make liberal 'scouse git' Michael much agreeable either.

When you watch 'Till death us do part, Garnet is such a commanding force that you really believe Speight agrees with what he is saying.


I knew All in the Family was based on a UK show but I didn't know that Sanford and Son was too.... I think the Sanford character, played by Redd Foxx was adapted to the fit the mold established by Foxx in his stand up comedy.

The thing about All in the Family...which I totally suggest watching is that they figured out a way to let Archie say the things he did with out making it look like he was right.  Mike and Gloria always questioned his statements...most of the time Edith gave a disappointed look but at the same time she knew if she challenged him she would get the full barrage of his tantrum.  Since he was always belittling her anyway I suppose she learned to pick her battles.  The thing is it looked like he had totally worn her down over the years.


But they never let us think for a moment that Archie was ever right. I'm sure there were some people who watched the show and missed the point because they were listening to Archies words and not what was really going on.  The thing is the way they presented Archie was truly masterful.  I love the show I guess mostly because Archie's POV was based in ignorance and not really in hatred.... and he was adaptable he learned and grew into some semblance of acceptance.


For notelvis, I love this dialogue we're having.... do tell me more.

I knew All in the Family was based on a UK show but I didn't know that Sanford and Son was too.... I think the Sanford character, played by Redd Foxx was adapted to the fit the mold established by Foxx in his stand up comedy.

Yes that's it, Redd Foxx was a comedian but haven't heard much of his stuff. Steptoe and Son is the stuff of legends over here in the UK, very original in that it can be humourous and poignant at the same time. Ironically the performances were amazing probably because Harry H Corbett and Wilfrid Brambell hated the sight of each other in real life.

The thing about All in the Family...which I totally suggest watching is that they figured out a way to let Archie say the things he did with out making it look like he was right.  Mike and Gloria always questioned his statements...most of the time Edith gave a disappointed look but at the same time she knew if she challenged him she would get the full barrage of his tantrum.  Since he was always belittling her anyway I suppose she learned to pick her battles.  The thing is it looked like he had totally worn her down over the years.

But they never let us think for a moment that Archie was ever right. I'm sure there were some people who watched the show and missed the point because they were listening to Archies words and not what was really going on.  The thing is the way they presented Archie was truly masterful.  I love the show I guess mostly because Archie's POV was based in ignorance and not really in hatred.... and he was adaptable he learned and grew into some semblance of acceptance.

It wasn't the writing that was at fault, I think it's because the British love an anti-hero. Garnet was never made out to be right and was always made a fool of. The irony was Warren Mitchell played him that well that everybody liked him. He gave his role so much character, brilliant mannerisms and enthusiasm (both he and Liverpudlian son-in-law Mike (Anthony Booth) always looked as though they were on the brink of coming to blows, lol). I think it also says something about the British attitudes back in 60s/70s Britain.