Culturally, economically, in any way I mean? I think more people live in the Midwest, the South and all other states that are between the coastal states (sorry I'm European :P), is that true?

Yet, culturally the West and East coast (well, mainly LA and NY) have dominated for like eons. I used Google Street view walking around St Louis and it seems urban decay there has gotten bad. If there's a movie called Meet Me In St Louis, I assume it was once a hip place. The Twin Cities seem very beautiful however and full of life. However on this side of the ocean we never hear anything made there, from there or being filmed there. Last time we heard of a place different than California or NYC was in the 90's - the sitcom Roseanne, taking place in midwestern setting and some other TV shows like Married With Children (Chicago is anyway very popular with Bulgarian due to the book of a very well-known local writer and traveler who visited Chicago during the industrial revolution). Of course the biggest was the TV soap Dallas, referencing the eponymous city. ;)

Do you think that it will ever be possible for the core of the country to become hip/popular/developed again? I know Dallas is still going strong economically, Austin and Houston, too. Up north it seems only the Twin cities seem to be doing well. I know being away from the ocean makes it hard to be hip, to transport goods, etc. Save for Michigan and Detroit area the crime rates seem worse in NY and LA? I think both NY and LA are susceptible to be targeted in a possible war me thinks. Are there people leaving the megalopolises and going to the sticks or just leaving the coasts to go to a city in the interior of the US to escape the rushed, 24/7 rat-race feeling you get in places like NY, LA?

Economically, coasts will always be more important since transporting goods by sea is a lot cheaper than by air, and a majority of businesses and industries are located along them. Also tourism is a huge industry and and cities along costs are a lot easier for tourists to reach than inland cities.
Culturally, the coasts have cities like LA and NY that are multicultural cities with many people from around the globe immigrating to and from them, so anything that happens there or starts there has a lot of influence and easily spreads around the world.
The "flyover states" don't have such cities, and they're relatively empty, with whole states sometimes having a lower population the New York, so they're not influential unless millions of people suddenly decide to move to them.

No, they're becoming more irrelevant by the day. Although I was surprised to see Nashville and I think the other one was Indianapolis, on Amazon's HQ2 list of finalists. I'd be shocked if they win ultimately.

Also, NY is actually a very safe city by American standards. I'm pretty sure Midwestern cities are more dangerous.

I would say right now, the flyover states are very influential.  Trump is not popular on the coasts but he is in places like Amarillo and Bowling Green and Oklahoma City.  Right now, the racism, xenophobia, homophobia, and crazy religious fundamentalism of flyover country is being forced on the country at large and is becoming the culture.  Ignorance is glorified these days and being educated or believing facts over propaganda is looked down on.  How dare anybody believe climate change or that life on earth evolved or that the planet is older than 6000 years.  I'm so sick of it.

I live in a small truck stop town and if it wasn't for the Internet, this place would literally still be stuck in the 1950s.

No, they're becoming more irrelevant by the day. Although I was surprised to see Nashville and I think the other one was Indianapolis, on Amazon's HQ2 list of finalists. I'd be shocked if they win ultimately.

Also, NY is actually a very safe city by American standards. I'm pretty sure Midwestern cities are more dangerous.


Depends on the Midwestern city. Des Moines still has a lower violent-crime rate than coastal cities like NYC, LA, Philly and DC. But that is to be expected, considering it's not a magnet for gangland activity. On the other hand, Chicago, St Louis, Detroit and Milwaukee are pretty damn rough and have earned their reputation for being rough and gritty. Buffalo and Pittsburgh (both could be considered Midwestern cities, depending on whom you ask) are also plagued with violent and drug-related crime in some pockets. Hell, even smaller-sized cities in the Rust Belt can be extremely sketchy in confined neighborhoods. Erie, PA and Toledo, OH. Youngstown, OH and Wheeling, WV. Urban decay galore.

I would say right now, the flyover states are very influential.  Trump is not popular on the coasts but he is in places like Amarillo and Bowling Green and Oklahoma City.  Right now, the racism, xenophobia, homophobia, and crazy religious fundamentalism of flyover country is being forced on the country at large and is becoming the culture.  Ignorance is glorified these days and being educated or believing facts over propaganda is looked down on.  How dare anybody believe climate change or that life on earth evolved or that the planet is older than 6000 years.  I'm so sick of it.

I live in a small truck stop town and if it wasn't for the Internet, this place would literally still be stuck in the 1950s.


It's not just the Deep South and Great Plains. Rural coal-mining areas, farm towns and decaying blue-collar cities in places like PA, OH, MI, NY and even Maine swung full-throttle for Trump. You have to remember that many of those blue-collar, coal-mining and factory towns in the NE & Upper Midwest are historically Democratic strongholds. This all ties into the labor union's presence. Those peeps are neck-deep in mud and dirt, and they want to cling to an increasingly dated lifestyle. Trump capitalized on their discontent and sold snake oil to them. They bought it.
It all comes down to jobs and money, even more so than religion and politics and the authoritarian impulses of the Far Right.
Why did some Midwestern/Southern "fly-over" states like West Virginia, Michigan and Wisconsin lean blue in the not-so-ancient past? I think it has more to do with the economic populist message of past Democratic politicians, than the bleeding-heart "Black Panther" mindset of the mainstream modern left. Jobs come first, those folks are desperate to cling to the stable and peaceful lifestyle they once took for granted.

Nope. They never will be unless and until there's actual cross-cultural exchange. Maybe it's not fair but that's how it works.

Depends on the Midwestern city. Des Moines still has a lower violent-crime rate than coastal cities like NYC, LA, Philly and DC. But that is to be expected, considering it's not a magnet for gangland activity. On the other hand, Chicago, St Louis, Detroit and Milwaukee are pretty damn rough and have earned their reputation for being rough and gritty. Buffalo and Pittsburgh (both could be considered Midwestern cities, depending on whom you ask) are also plagued with violent and drug-related crime in some pockets. Hell, even smaller-sized cities in the Rust Belt can be extremely sketchy in confined neighborhoods. Erie, PA and Toledo, OH. Youngstown, OH and Wheeling, WV. Urban decay galore.


I was thinking cities as in 1 million people at least. Des Moines looks to have about 400k people, and it's very hard to be an 'influential' city at that size even if you're coastal.

I think the main reason that New York and Los Angeles are more influential than the rest of the country is simply because those two cities are where our entertainment and news media industry is based out of, and that's where people who want to get into show business and journalism flock to.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the country in between is a cultural wasteland though. There's actually a lot of cool stuff out here, you just have to look for it.



Do you think that it will ever be possible for the core of the country to become hip/popular/developed again? I know Dallas is still going strong economically, Austin and Houston, too. Up north it seems only the Twin cities seem to be doing well. I know being away from the ocean makes it hard to be hip, to transport goods, etc. Save for Michigan and Detroit area the crime rates seem worse in NY and LA? I think both NY and LA are susceptible to be targeted in a possible war me thinks. Are there people leaving the megalopolises and going to the sticks or just leaving the coasts to go to a city in the interior of the US to escape the rushed, 24/7 rat-race feeling you get in places like NY, LA?


It's highly unlikely the Midwest will ever become as culturally influential as NY or LA, though the hipsters here in Omaha seem to desperately want to be. As a matter-of-fact, some genius came up with this as a slogan for our fair city:

http://surrealmedialab.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/wdc-omaha-worn.png

::) ::) ::)

However, there has been a rather large influx of people moving to the Midwest from the coasts in recent years, and I think it's mainly due to economic reasons. The cost of living here is much more reasonable than that of the coasts. For example, people in California have been selling their homes for a half-million dollars and buying a similar-sized house here in Omaha for $150,000. As a native Midwesterner looking from the outside, I have a hard time understanding how people who make less than six figures a year can get by in California, due to the (what I perceive to be) the astronomical cost of living out there.


Economically, coasts will always be more important since transporting goods by sea is a lot cheaper than by air, and a majority of businesses and industries are located along them. Also tourism is a huge industry and and cities along costs are a lot easier for tourists to reach than inland cities.

Certainly that's true when it comes to importing/exporting goods, but a lot of cities here in the Midwest are major transportation hubs served by rail and interstate highway networks. I lived in Kansas City, Missouri (and Kansas) for 9 years and it was one of those major hubs. Both Ford and GM have assembly plants there, and the Kansas City Southern railroad has a rail corridor that stretches all the way to the ports on the west coast of Mexico. Also, the BNSF railroad has a massive intermodal railyard there that connects to the ports on the West Coast. (There are also a couple of smaller intermodal railyards here in Omaha as well.)

Certainly, Kansas City isn't even close to being culturally influential as NY or LA but it is definitely a regional tourist destination, and there's all kinds of cool fun stuff to do there.


No, they're becoming more irrelevant by the day. Although I was surprised to see Nashville and I think the other one was Indianapolis, on Amazon's HQ2 list of finalists. I'd be shocked if they win ultimately.

Also, NY is actually a very safe city by American standards. I'm pretty sure Midwestern cities are more dangerous.


Certainly the crime rate in New York has fallen dramatically over the last 30 years, but if you want to use that as an argument that the East Coast is somehow inherently safer than the Midwest then I invite you to go across the Hudson and walk around Newark and Camden, New Jersey for a couple of hours.

Also, although it may not be as internationally famous, Nashville is hugely influential in large sections of America.

I live in Cincinnati.... home of 9 fortune 500 companies. We have more Fortune 500 companies per capita than any other city. We are not flyover territory and to call us that is just stupid.

Ohio is still a good state. Cincinnati has been in a huge case of urban renewal and gentrification since the mid 2000s. We may actually stop our 50 year population loss trend in the city limits this next upcoming census.

We are not flyover. We have P&G, Macys, Fifth Third, American Financial, Western and Southern, Cintas, Toyota MMK. Almost everything I listed you probably come into contact with a product, commercial, etc by them in your daily life.

Cincinnati will always be my home.

Culturally, economically, in any way I mean? I think more people live in the Midwest, the South and all other states that are between the coastal states (sorry I'm European :P), is that true?



What European country are you from?  Have you ever had a chance to visit the United States?

Ohio is still a good state.


Except you have the Buckeyes.  ;D

Midwestern nice, or Midwestern ice?  ;D  ;D  ;D

I find the Midwest a fine place to live in. Lots of good people. The only downside to it is that it tends to be too conservative, for me, in some areas!

Midwestern nice, or Midwestern ice?  ;D  ;D  ;D

I find the Midwest a fine place to live in. Lots of good people. The only downside to it is that it tends to be too conservative, for me, in some areas!


The Midwest is a liberal bastion compared to Oklahoma.  This place is anti-gay, anti-science, Trump supporting, the entire nine yards.  I can't wait to get out of here.  It's everything terrible about the Deep South but without any of the charm.

The Midwest is a liberal bastion compared to Oklahoma.  This place is anti-gay, anti-science, Trump supporting, the entire nine yards.  I can't wait to get out of here.  It's everything terrible about the Deep South but without any of the charm.


So that's where you live, for now.  :o

It's painfully obvious you're not compatible with that city and/or state.

So that's where you live, for now.  :o

It's painfully obvious you're not compatible with that city and/or state.


Yeah I hate everything about it.  It's one of the few places in the US that I don't think has any positives about it whatsoever.  I would rather live almost anywhere besides here (with the exception of Arkansas, Mississippi, or Alabama).  I left in 2009, swearing to never return yet my parents manipulated me not only into moving back here but doing ex-gay conversion therapy.  I have two more years and then I can finally be done with this place.

Midwestern nice, or Midwestern ice?  ;D  ;D  ;D

I find the Midwest a fine place to live in. Lots of good people. The only downside to it is that it tends to be too conservative, for me, in some areas!


It might get a little mundane here in Nebraska at times, but for the most part it's pretty laid back here.

Although, I don't know how you feel about him, but personally I think our governor is a complete twat. ;D

Midwestern nice, or Midwestern ice?  ;D  ;D  ;D

I find the Midwest a fine place to live in. Lots of good people. The only downside to it is that it tends to be too conservative, for me, in some areas!


I hear people from New York/Boston, when they come to Toronto/Ontario, they say it has a "Midwestern vibe", and I feel personally attacked each time.  :-[ Although I'm happy we don't have their accents.

I hear people from New York/Boston, when they come to Toronto/Ontario, they say it has a "Midwestern vibe", and I feel personally attacked each time.  :-[ Although I'm happy we don't have their accents.


I've been up to Toronto and Hamilton a couple times, and it didn't seem all that different from the Midwest to me. I found the people there to be pretty friendly and down to earth.

I've been up to Toronto and Hamilton a couple times, and it didn't seem all that different from the Midwest to me. I found the people there to be pretty friendly and down to earth.


Oh my God, those are BOTH my hometowns  ;D

People in Hamilton are always very nice, it's a very laid back city (because everyone smokes weed). Toronto though has more of a big-city, corporate, workaholic feel. I'm happy to hear you liked them though :)

I hear people from New York/Boston, when they come to Toronto/Ontario, they say it has a "Midwestern vibe", and I feel personally attacked each time.  :-[ Although I'm happy we don't have their accents.


There's things about (at least that I speculate, since I haven't had any real-life experience) the Northeast I might find disagreeable. Like probably some of the politics  ;D .

Also, even though I like straightforward people (again, speculation), I find sometimes maybe the Northeastern straightforwardness is a bit much sometimes, too.  :(  :(  :(

No place is perfect, except my bedroom.  8)  8)  8)  8)  8)  8)  8)

It might get a little mundane here in Nebraska at times, but for the most part it's pretty laid back here.

Although, I don't know how you feel about him, but personally I think our governor is a complete twat. ;D


I don't know enough about him, but he comes off a bit arrogant to me. Like arrogant in a subtle way, or whatever. I don't really hate him, but that's the impression he gives to me.  :o

There's things about (at least that I speculate, since I haven't had any real-life experience) the Northeast I might find disagreeable. Like probably some of the politics  ;D .

Also, even though I like straightforward people (again, speculation), I find sometimes maybe the Northeastern straightforwardness is a bit much sometimes, too.  :(  :(  :(

No place is perfect, except my bedroom.  8)  8)  8)  8)  8)  8)  8)


Northeast is all hype TBH. Let's cover our body in tattoos and move to the West Coast.

What are the Northeast stereotypes, though? The only ones I know are bad accents and being liberal.  :P

I don't know enough about him, but he comes off a bit arrogant to me. Like arrogant in a subtle way, or whatever. I don't really hate him, but that's the impression he gives to me.  :o


Oh he's a d!ckhead. Both he and the governor of Oklahoma wanted to take Colorado to federal court to try and get the government to overturn Colorado's law legalizing recreational marijuana.

Northeast is all hype TBH. Let's cover our body in tattoos and move to the West Coast.

What are the Northeast stereotypes, though? The only ones I know are bad accents and being liberal.  :P


My experience with the NY/NJ area was that it was very fast paced and people could be pushy and in your face and you had to be tough and willing to stand up to them (which I wasn't at the time I went there  :-[), otherwise they'd try to walk all over you.

But I still want to go back there someday..

Oh he's a d!ckhead. Both he and the governor of Oklahoma wanted to take Colorado to federal court to try and get the government to overturn Colorado's law legalizing recreational marijuana.


Yeah people in Oklahoma aren't content enough to force all the religious bullsh!t on people who actually live in this state.  They have to sue other states and force them to bow at the altar of supply side Jesus.

Marijuana won't be legal in Oklahoma before 2050.  That's a guarantee.  This place is literally like living in the movie Footloose.  The churches run everything.

Yeah I hate everything about it.  It's one of the few places in the US that I don't think has any positives about it whatsoever.  I would rather live almost anywhere besides here (with the exception of Arkansas, Mississippi, or Alabama).  I left in 2009, swearing to never return yet my parents manipulated me not only into moving back here but doing ex-gay conversion therapy.  I have two more years and then I can finally be done with this place.


I think you can love your parents, and realize that you may need to spend months away from them. Boundaries, and all.
However, I'm not sure how they 'manipulated' you. I'm not judging you, I'm just very curious. Didn't you have an apartment/house/place of your own before you moved back? Couldn't you have visit them and not do conversion therapy? Maybe they did manipulate you, I don't know. Sounds like they weren't 100% honest with you about something.

It's not easy to have difficult family members, but it all doesn't have to be black and white either. Maybe you can visit them twice a year, and still live away from them the rest of the year.

Northeast is all hype TBH. Let's cover our body in tattoos and move to the West Coast.

What are the Northeast stereotypes, though? The only ones I know are bad accents and being liberal.  :P


Oh, the hate!  ;D

Oh he's a d!ckhead. Both he and the governor of Oklahoma wanted to take Colorado to federal court to try and get the government to overturn Colorado's law legalizing recreational marijuana.


Maybe he can turn over a new leaf!  ;)  ;D  ;D

My experience with the NY/NJ area was that it was very fast paced and people could be pushy and in your face and you had to be tough and willing to stand up to them (which I wasn't at the time I went there  :-[), otherwise they'd try to walk all over you.

But I still want to go back there someday..


Oh, that doesn't sound very pleasant.  :o

Did you have any positive experiences with their personalities/"culture"?

I think you can love your parents, and realize that you may need to spend months away from them. Boundaries, and all.
However, I'm not sure how they 'manipulated' you. I'm not judging you, I'm just very curious. Didn't you have an apartment/house/place of your own before you moved back? Couldn't you have visit them and not do conversion therapy? Maybe they did manipulate you, I don't know. Sounds like they weren't 100% honest with you about something.

It's not easy to have difficult family members, but it all doesn't have to be black and white either. Maybe you can visit them twice a year, and still live away from them the rest of the year.


I don't know if I should answer for him, but from what I remember, he lost his job in the recession, all the while his parents kept guilt tripping him to get back into the closet, and they told him God was punishing him because he was gay etc. He brought into it, moved back with his parents and it was all downhill from there. I might have missed a few important details :-\\

Oh, that doesn't sound very pleasant.  :o

Did you have any positive experiences with their personalities/"culture"?


Well, truth be told I didn't think they were bad people, I just think they had to maintain a gruff exterior to get by. And my only experience with them was at warehouses and truck stops. For someone who hadn't been outside the Midwest, it was quite intimidating, NTH.

But I really want to go back to NYC as a tourist someday, I've had other experiences where I went to states as a trucker and hated it, and then went back and visited on vacation and had great experiences.

It's funny, Arkansas gets a really bad rap but I've visited it a few times since I quit driving long haul and I was shocked as to how friendly the people were, and I had an absolute blast down there.

Well, truth be told I didn't think they were bad people, I just think they had to maintain a gruff exterior to get by. And my only experience with them was at warehouses and truck stops. For someone who hadn't been outside the Midwest, it was quite intimidating, NTH.

But I really want to go back to NYC as a tourist someday, I've had other experiences where I went to states as a trucker and hated it, and then went back and visited on vacation and had great experiences.

It's funny, Arkansas gets a really bad rap but I've visited it a few times since I quit driving long haul and I was shocked as to how friendly the people were, and I had an absolute blast down there.


Arkansas is part of the South, right? I've heard they have a good hospitality culture. :)

Also until 2016, I used to pronounce Arkansas like R-Kansas. I only found out the correct pronunciation because Clintons.  :-X

The Midwest is a liberal bastion compared to Oklahoma.  This place is anti-gay, anti-science, Trump supporting, the entire nine yards.  I can't wait to get out of here.  It's everything terrible about the Deep South but without any of the charm.

Well Oklahoma isn't the Deep South but I've heard people say it is arguably the most conservative state in the nation. I'm not sure what city you live in but places like OKC and Tulsa are a little more liberal than other cities in OK. Although last year, the LGBT center in Tulsa got shot up.  ::) I'll be happy for you when you get to leave the state.

Arkansas is part of the South, right? I've heard they have a good hospitality culture. :)

Also until 2016, I used to pronounce Arkansas like R-Kansas. I only found out the correct pronunciation because Clintons.  :-X

Yes, Arkansas is a Southern state. Never make the mistake of calling them Midwestern. They will not be happy.

Arkansas is part of the South, right? I've heard they have a good hospitality culture. :)

Also until 2016, I used to pronounce Arkansas like R-Kansas. I only found out the correct pronunciation because Clintons.  :-X


Oh, no. You don't want to mispronounce Arkansas when you're down there. You might get your ass kicked for doing that. :o

I'm just kidding, but they'd probably give you a hard time about it.  ;D

Yes, Arkansas is a Southern state. Never make the mistake of calling them Midwestern. They will not be happy.


I'm always unsure whether if a state isn't Deep South, does that make it Midwest? Or is it just plain South?


Oh, no. You don't want to mispronounce Arkansas when you're down there. You might get your ass kicked for doing that. :o

I'm just kidding, but they'd probably give you a hard time about it.  ;D




Another one is Missouri. I pronounced it with a sharp S, and the "ou" as an oo. Someone corrected me and told me it was pronounced "Misery", and I always that was a very unfortunate name for a place. I found out a bit later that the R is more stressed,  so it doesn't sound quite like "misery" ;D

Arkansas is part of the South, right? I've heard they have a good hospitality culture. :)

Also until 2016, I used to pronounce Arkansas like R-Kansas. I only found out the correct pronunciation because Clintons.  :-X


Killary Clinton! Not because of Benghazi, but because she killed their name!  >:(  :P  :P

Killary Clinton! Not because of Benghazi, but because she killed their name!  >:(  :P  :P


I know how to pronounce Benghazi properly, because there was a Libyan girl in my high school who had that as her last name. The English-speaking media isn't even close! :o

Also that reminds me, I knew a Syrian kid whose first name was literally Jihad. He was a grade below me in elementary school (so, 1999-2004). I wonder if he got his name changed yet. ???

LOL, now I'm getting off topic ;D

I'm always unsure whether if a state isn't Deep South, does that make it Midwest? Or is it just plain South?

Another one is Missouri. I pronounced it with a sharp S, and the "ou" as an oo. Someone corrected me and told me it was pronounced "Misery", and I always that was a very unfortunate name for a place. I found out a bit later that the R is more stressed,  so it doesn't sound quite like "misery" ;D


See now, the urban parts of Missouri (KC, St. Louis, and Columbia) are indeed pronounced in the way you were instructed to.

However, once you get down to the more rural parts (the Ozarks, Springfield, and most of the I-44 corridor) it's pronounced "Miz-ZUR-rah.."

Missouri was all right. Missourah was kind of scary, TBH.  :o

I have to ask you, Slowpoke, have you done much traveling to the more rural parts of Canada? Have you ever been to any small towns in say, Alberta or Saskatchewan? 

If so, are the people who live in these smaller towns less tolerant and open-minded than those who live in larger metropolitan areas (like Toronto or Ottawa or Montreal)? Or is this more of an American thing?

Maybe he can turn over a new leaf!  ;)  ;D  ;D


Ricketts blazing up??? That'll be the day!  ;D

Arkansas is part of the South, right? I've heard they have a good hospitality culture. :)

Also until 2016, I used to pronounce Arkansas like R-Kansas. I only found out the correct pronunciation because Clintons.  :-X


Haha that's how I thought it was pronounced aswell until a few years ago.

I don't know if I should answer for him, but from what I remember, he lost his job in the recession, all the while his parents kept guilt tripping him to get back into the closet, and they told him God was punishing him because he was gay etc. He brought into it, moved back with his parents and it was all downhill from there. I might have missed a few important details :-\\


Yeah for the most part this was it.  It went a little farther than that though.  Upon finding out I was gay during the summer of 2009 they changed the locks on my childhood home.  Before moving off to North Carolina, my dad chased me away as I was crying, telling that God was laughing at my tears.  Just prior, I had tried to explain to him that it wasn't a choice and it was how I was and then he went on to compare me to Adolf Hitler and said that God will have more mercy for Hitler on judgment day than for me.  A couple of weeks later, I got fired from my job because of my sexuality.  My dad then told me that it was the wrath of God pouring out on me and to get used to getting fired from jobs because nobody wants to work with f*ggots.  After that I left for North Carolina to live with my best friend but I was underemployed the entire time because of the recession.  After I left for North Carolina, I was able to live my own life for a while.  However, sometimes they would continually call and text me to harass me, send me Bible verses, call me yelling anti-gay slurs, etc.  Other times they would talk about how they never understood how I could do such a thing to them and my mom would break down crying.  The worst of it was when she told me shew as praying for God to take her life so that the pain of me losing her in that state would push me to do conversion therapy.  It late 2010 it came to a head when my dad told me if I didn't go back in the closet they would cut me off completely.  At the same time, my best friend/roommate was sick of dealing with the drama and told me that if I didn't cut my parents off, we wouldn't be friends anymore.  Due to the fact I was always so close with my parents growing up and was still trying to process what was going on, I chose my parents.

In 2012, I moved back home to Oklahoma.  My job had become toxic in North Carolina and my parents told me since I moved out there to be gay, God wasn't going to allow me to find another job out there and that I needed to move home to show that I was serious about my repentance.  Keep in mind all of this would have been my nightmare scenario when I left in 2009 and in 2010.  I did it though because I felt I had to for my parents.  In 2013-14 I did conversion therapy.  My parents also used a tracking app to stalk my Facebook during that era.  I couldn't even add anybody as a friend without them interrogating me.  They would always accuse me of relapsing into the homosexual lifestyle and hiding it from them.  I quit conversion therapy when they tried to get me to do an exorcism and when my therapist told me that nobody who voted for Barack Obama could go to heaven.  The SCOTUS decision was the turning point for me and that was basically when I just said "screw it" with religion.  I could not handle the kind of backlash and gnashing of teeth I was witnessing all around me because of that.  I was attacked heavily because I posted something on Facebook that was somewhat sympathetic to the decision (though not outright supportive).  My parents' church decided to burn a rainbow flag.

Nowadays, I am slowly but surely trying to emerge from everything that happened.  I am making progress, but its much slower than I'd like and I'm not getting any younger.  In 2017 I finally got the nerve to go to a gay bar, but I am still too terrified to flirt with anybody or try to have a relationship.  I have a lot of internalized homophobia left over from the conversion therapy.  I'm also still worried about my parents or people who know them finding out about me or seeing me with the wrong people.  It's really hard to believe that I actually was fully out at one time and had a boyfriend and now, I'm dealing with this.

I'm always unsure whether if a state isn't Deep South, does that make it Midwest? Or is it just plain South?

Another one is Missouri. I pronounced it with a sharp S, and the "ou" as an oo. Someone corrected me and told me it was pronounced "Misery", and I always that was a very unfortunate name for a place. I found out a bit later that the R is more stressed,  so it doesn't sound quite like "misery" ;D

Nope, the South and Midwest are different places (though similar in some ways). There is the (plain) South (Texas, Arkansas, Kentucky, etc) and there is the Deep South (Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, etc). The Midwest includes states like Nebraska, Kansas, Ohio, etc.

I have to ask you, Slowpoke, have you done much traveling to the more rural parts of Canada? Have you ever been to any small towns in say, Alberta or Saskatchewan? 

If so, are the people who live in these smaller towns less tolerant and open-minded than those who live in larger metropolitan areas (like Toronto or Ottawa or Montreal)? Or is this more of an American thing?


I've never been out West unfortunately.  :(

I have been to rural parts of Ontario though (I'm going to one place on the weekend!) and they are kind and tolerant enough. Actually, I have a friend who used to work as a nurse up in Bruce County (I haven't been there, but I want to, it's beautiful!). He was working at an old people's home on election night 2016, and when Trump won, one lady said "Those idiots are at it again!" and the others agreed and piled on. This was among older people, in a city that votes 50-60% Conservative, which would make it one of the most conservative places in the country. This showed me that Canadian conservatives and American conservatives are two very different creatures :o

I've heard bad stories too, though. There's a small town not far from me called Georgina. I've been there a few times on boat trips. I felt kind of self-conscious but it was probably all in my head. There's a high school there that's in the news very often. First, it was on there because there were cars in the parking lot that had Confederate flags on them... in Canada. Then not long after, a black kid got beat up in that same high school, as the kids who were grounding him to a pulp shouted "n*gger" and other slurs.  :-\\

Homophobia is another question, though. I don't think the rural parts of Canada are homophobic at all. There might be a few freak cases, but for the most part, in 2018, homophobia is rare. I think the landscape is more similar to Australia, where they recently had a referendum on gay marriage. The rural/conservative parts were pro-gay marriage. The most anti-gay marriage area was actually Western Sydney, where there a lot of immigrants from homophobic cultures. I imagine a referendum on gay marriage in Canada would go down similarly (although Canada is more progressive than Australia for the most part), with virtually the whole country being pro-LGBT, but those pockets in big cities with a lot of recent immigrants being more homophobic.

Yeah for the most part this was it.  It went a little farther than that though.  Upon finding out I was gay during the summer of 2009 they changed the locks on my childhood home.  Before moving off to North Carolina, my dad chased me away as I was crying, telling that God was laughing at my tears.  Just prior, I had tried to explain to him that it wasn't a choice and it was how I was and then he went on to compare me to Adolf Hitler and said that God will have more mercy for Hitler on judgment day than for me.  A couple of weeks later, I got fired from my job because of my sexuality.  My dad then told me that it was the wrath of God pouring out on me and to get used to getting fired from jobs because nobody wants to work with f*ggots.  After that I left for North Carolina to live with my best friend but I was underemployed the entire time because of the recession.  After I left for North Carolina, I was able to live my own life for a while.  However, sometimes they would continually call and text me to harass me, send me Bible verses, call me yelling anti-gay slurs, etc.  Other times they would talk about how they never understood how I could do such a thing to them and my mom would break down crying.  The worst of it was when she told me shew as praying for God to take her life so that the pain of me losing her in that state would push me to do conversion therapy.  It late 2010 it came to a head when my dad told me if I didn't go back in the closet they would cut me off completely.  At the same time, my best friend/roommate was sick of dealing with the drama and told me that if I didn't cut my parents off, we wouldn't be friends anymore.  Due to the fact I was always so close with my parents growing up and was still trying to process what was going on, I chose my parents.

In 2012, I moved back home to Oklahoma.  My job had become toxic in North Carolina and my parents told me since I moved out there to be gay, God wasn't going to allow me to find another job out there and that I needed to move home to show that I was serious about my repentance.  Keep in mind all of this would have been my nightmare scenario when I left in 2009 and in 2010.  I did it though because I felt I had to for my parents.  In 2013-14 I did conversion therapy.  My parents also used a tracking app to stalk my Facebook during that era.  I couldn't even add anybody as a friend without them interrogating me.  They would always accuse me of relapsing into the homosexual lifestyle and hiding it from them.  I quit conversion therapy when they tried to get me to do an exorcism and when my therapist told me that nobody who voted for Barack Obama could go to heaven.  The SCOTUS decision was the turning point for me and that was basically when I just said "screw it" with religion.  I could not handle the kind of backlash and gnashing of teeth I was witnessing all around me because of that.  I was attacked heavily because I posted something on Facebook that was somewhat sympathetic to the decision (though not outright supportive).  My parents' church decided to burn a rainbow flag.

Nowadays, I am slowly but surely trying to emerge from everything that happened.  I am making progress, but its much slower than I'd like and I'm not getting any younger.  In 2017 I finally got the nerve to go to a gay bar, but I am still too terrified to flirt with anybody or try to have a relationship.  I have a lot of internalized homophobia left over from the conversion therapy.  I'm also still worried about my parents or people who know them finding out about me or seeing me with the wrong people.  It's really hard to believe that I actually was fully out at one time and had a boyfriend and now, I'm dealing with this.


That's way worse than I originally thought. I'm sorry you had to go through all that, it's not fair.  :\'(

Nope, the South and Midwest are different places (though similar in some ways). There is the (plain) South (Texas, Arkansas, Kentucky, etc) and there is the Deep South (Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, etc). The Midwest includes states like Nebraska, Kansas, Ohio, etc.


Missouri is kind of an odd duck, parts of it are more Midwestern and other parts of it are more Southern. As I was telling Slowpoke earlier, you have Missouri (which is Kansas City, Columbia, St. Louis, and maybe Jefferson City) which is more Midwestern, and then you have Missourah, which includes some of the more rural parts of the northern half of the state and the southern half which includes Joplin, Springfield, Branson, and Fort Leonard Wood (where I did basic training for the Army), and that's the more Southern part of the state.

One of the funny things I found about Missourah was this weird dichotomy they seemed to have between religion and pornography. It seemed that the deeper I got into the Bible Belt (the I-44 corridor that went from St. Louis down to Joplin and into Oklahoma), the more adult bookstores and dildo shops I'd see. I swear there would be a porn barn at every other exit off of I-44, and they were usually right next to billboards advertising the local Baptist church.

I-70 between Kansas City and St. Louis wasn't much different. I used to jokingly call it "Porn Alley."  ;D

Alls I can say is if I could afford to, I would live in Boston. But I can't, which is why I live in the Midwest.

Missouri is kind of an odd duck, parts of it are more Midwestern and other parts of it are more Southern. As I was telling Slowpoke earlier, you have Missouri (which is Kansas City, Columbia, St. Louis, and maybe Jefferson City) which is more Midwestern, and then you have Missourah, which includes some of the more rural parts of the northern half of the state and the southern half which includes Joplin, Springfield, Branson, and Fort Leonard Wood (where I did basic training for the Army), and that's the more Southern part of the state.

One of the funny things I found about Missourah was this weird dichotomy they seemed to have between religion and pornography. It seemed that the deeper I got into the Bible Belt (the I-44 corridor that went from St. Louis down to Joplin and into Oklahoma), the more adult bookstores and dildo shops I'd see. I swear there would be a porn barn at every other exit off of I-44, and they were usually right next to billboards advertising the local Baptist church.

I-70 between Kansas City and St. Louis wasn't much different. I used to jokingly call it "Porn Alley."  ;D


Been down that I44 corridor several times over the years and saw that dichotomy too.  I believe that area also has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates  and one of the highest divorce rates, among other similar dichotomies.  Hypocrisy?

I went to Minnesota and liked it. Kansas City, Missouri was a great, and fun, place.  8)

Been down that I44 corridor several times over the years and saw that dichotomy too.  I believe that area also has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates  and one of the highest divorce rates, among other similar dichotomies.  Hypocrisy?


Really it seems like it's kind of an economically depressed area.

I went to boot camp at Fort Leonard Wood (or Fort Lost In The Woods, as it was nicknamed), and the two towns just off the base, Waynesville and St. Robert, were downright scummy and I'm eternally grateful that I didn't end up getting permanently stationed there.

On the other hand, the Lake of the Ozarks is only 20-30 miles north of there and it is breathtaking. It's kind of a Midwestern resort destination where people who are more well off have cabins and lake houses.

And Branson, which is about 20 miles south of Springfield is also a major Midwest tourist destination, with amusement parks and several theaters where country music stars have permanent residence. Bart Simpson described Branson best, he said it's like Las Vegas if Ned Flanders ran it. ;D

BTW DC, have you ever been to Lawrence, Kansas? If not, I'll bet you'd really like it.

Really it seems like it's kind of an economically depressed area.

I went to boot camp at Fort Leonard Wood (or Fort Lost In The Woods, as it was nicknamed), and the two towns just off the base, Waynesville and St. Robert, were downright scummy and I'm eternally grateful that I didn't end up getting permanently stationed there.

On the other hand, the Lake of the Ozarks is only 20-30 miles north of there and it is breathtaking. It's kind of a Midwestern resort destination where people who are more well off have cabins and lake houses.

And Branson, which is about 20 miles south of Springfield is also a major Midwest tourist destination, with amusement parks and several theaters where country music stars have permanent residence. Bart Simpson described Branson best, he said it's like Las Vegas if Ned Flanders ran it. ;D

BTW DC, have you ever been to Lawrence, Kansas? If not, I'll bet you'd really like it.


Don't think I've been to Lawrence, what's special about it?  We mainly just drive through that region on our way west.  We have driven through the Ozarks, and  past Branson, which I knew of.  Yes, the Ozarks are very beautiful

The Ozarks are beautiful but they are probably the most right-wing, fundamentalist part of the country.  I would say they are even moreso than the Deep South.  The Ozarks cover southern Missouri, most of Arkansas north of I-30/I-40, and eastern Oklahoma.  You even find End Times newspapers at gas stations around here.

There are significant cultural/political differences between the Upper Midwest and the Lower Midwest.

The Upper Midwest encompasses most of the Great Lakes states such as Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota. Heavy labor-union presence in the three above states, which partially explains their historic tendency to vote Democrat. But THIS particular election was different. Trump's populist shtick won over MI and WI. MN has always been the Netherlands Of The Midwest so they predictably voted blue.
WI & MN are both technically fly-over states, however I would not put them on the same pedestal as Missouri or Oklahoma. If anything, Wisconsin has stronger cultural parallels with PA than with MO (heavy German and Polish populations, formerly Democrat-leaning but slowly trending to the right).
So I don't like it when folks from NJ/NY lump all Southerners and Midwesterns in together. Most of Wisconsin is NOTHING like Oklahoma or Arkansas, and shares stronger connections with Western NY than with either OK, AR or MO.

I would say right now, the flyover states are very influential.  Trump is not popular on the coasts but he is in places like Amarillo and Bowling Green and Oklahoma City.  Right now, the racism, xenophobia, homophobia, and crazy religious fundamentalism of flyover country is being forced on the country at large and is becoming the culture
I don't think Minneapolis/St Paul or even St. Louis are very xenophobic. And all those are also in that area between the both coasts.

Too bad the topic got politicized. I was thinking more in terms of pop culture - what if the movie industry moved in the Twin Cities? And what it would take for Minnesota et al. to attract new businesses? I know that in a war NY and LA are the easy targets. Also Hollywood studios could get destroyed by a quake in theory.

I don't think Minneapolis/St Paul or even St. Louis are very xenophobic. And all those are also in that area between the both coasts.

Too bad the topic got politicized. I was thinking more in terms of pop culture - what if the movie industry moved in the Twin Cities? And what it would take for Minnesota et al. to attract new businesses? I know that in a war NY and LA are the easy targets. Also Hollywood studios could get destroyed by a quake in theory.


Everything is political, even pop culture

Don't think I've been to Lawrence, what's special about it?  We mainly just drive through that region on our way west.  We have driven through the Ozarks, and  past Branson, which I knew of.  Yes, the Ozarks are very beautiful


Lawrence is about 30 miles west of Kansas City and where the University of Kansas is located. Although most of Lawrence isn't much different from any other Midwestern cities, when you get closer to campus and into the downtown area you'll find a thriving arts and music scene. It's a friendly left-leaning place where you wouldn't expect to find one.

I don't think Minneapolis/St Paul or even St. Louis are very xenophobic. And all those are also in that area between the both coasts.


Cities with 2+ million metro population in the heartland aren't bad.  Anything smaller than that and your mileage will vary, especially when you go south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Cities with 2+ million metro population in the heartland aren't bad.  Anything smaller than that and your mileage will vary, especially when you go south of the Mason-Dixon line.


What's Oklahoma City like? I've been through it quite a few times but I've never spent any time there.

What's Oklahoma City like? I've been through it quite a few times but I've never spent any time there.


All I know about that city is that Chandler hated it! :P

Oklahoma City is the worst city in North America.  It's a right-wing hellhole filled with Bible thumpers.  Tulsa is a little better but not by much.  Both OKC and Tulsa are better than rural Oklahoma but suck compared to any other sizable city in the USA.  Oklahoma is basically a fundamentalist Christian version of Saudi Arabia or Iran.  It's like this place is cursed.

I am literally thinking of selling everything I own this summer, quitting my job, moving, and hoping for the best.  That's how unhappy I am and how tired I am of living in this pathetic hellhole of a state.  I feel like my life won't end well if I don't.

Lawrence is about 30 miles west of Kansas City and where the University of Kansas is located. Although most of Lawrence isn't much different from any other Midwestern cities, when you get closer to campus and into the downtown area you'll find a thriving arts and music scene. It's a friendly left-leaning place where you wouldn't expect to find one.


If we're ever near by we'll stop in

Oklahoma City is the worst city in North America.

Certainly it can't be as bad as Gary, Indiana or Juarez, Mexico.  :o

It's a right-wing hellhole filled with Bible thumpers.  Tulsa is a little better but not by much.  Both OKC and Tulsa are better than rural Oklahoma but suck compared to any other sizable city in the USA.  Oklahoma is basically a fundamentalist Christian version of Saudi Arabia or Iran.  It's like this place is cursed.



Oklahoma does seem pretty neckish. I figured that since OKC is a bigger city then it wouldn't be as bad as the more rural parts of the state.

A while back I was at a warehouse in Kansas City waiting for some paperwork, and I was standing in the parking lot with three other truck drivers, and they were talking about an earthquake that had devastated a city in Mexico and causing mass casualties, and they were happy about it, because they were saying crap about how it was God's punishment for a world home astray and nonsense like that.

I pretty much kept my mouth shut but I did ask them where they were from and one of them said Oklahoma and I thought my head was going to explode. I mean, if natural disasters are God's punishment for our sins then He must really be mad at Oklahoma, right?

Although I didn't think of it at the time, I wish I would have asked that goober if he was jumping for joy when he was watching the live reports about the bodies of third-graders being pulled out of the rubble of that elementary school in Moore (for those of you who don't know, Moore is a suburb of Oklahoma City that has suffered catastrophic devastation from massive tornadoes twice in the last 20 years). I imagine he would have probably just shrugged and said, "Well, it's just part of God's plan," or something like that.

Also I really didn't care much for Wichita either, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

I am literally thinking of selling everything I own this summer, quitting my job, moving, and hoping for the best.  That's how unhappy I am and how tired I am of living in this pathetic hellhole of a state.  I feel like my life won't end well if I don't.

If you're miserable there and want to get out, then get out. Just make sure you have a good escape plan in place first.

Where are you thinking about moving to?

Certainly it can't be as bad as Gary, Indiana or Juarez, Mexico.  :o


Oklahoma does seem pretty neckish. I figured that since OKC is a bigger city then it wouldn't be as bad as the more rural parts of the state.

A while back I was at a warehouse in Kansas City waiting for some paperwork, and I was standing in the parking lot with three other truck drivers, and they were talking about an earthquake that had devastated a city in Mexico and causing mass casualties, and they were happy about it, because they were saying crap about how it was God's punishment for a world home astray and nonsense like that.

I pretty much kept my mouth shut but I did ask them where they were from and one of them said Oklahoma and I thought my head was going to explode. I mean, if natural disasters are God's punishment for our sins then He must really be mad at Oklahoma, right?

Although I didn't think of it at the time, I wish I would have asked that goober if he was jumping for joy when he was watching the live reports about the bodies of third-graders being pulled out of the rubble of that elementary school in Moore (for those of you who don't know, Moore is a suburb of Oklahoma City that has suffered catastrophic devastation from massive tornadoes twice in the last 20 years). I imagine he would have probably just shrugged and said, "Well, it's just part of God's plan," or something like that.

Also I really didn't care much for Wichita either, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

If you're miserable there and want to get out, then get out. Just make sure you have a good escape plan in place first.

Where are you thinking about moving to?


Yeah, OKC is better than rural Oklahoma but it's still Oklahoma and its not large enough or transient enough to really have the kind of progressive feel most major US cities do.  Tulsa is a little better but not by much.  Oklahoma has a very oppressive state government with very little separation of church and state.  Tulsa and OKC have decent neighborhoods but you still have to deal with Oklahoma's blue laws intended to force everyone to obey God.  I don't care for Wichita at all either.  The closest places that actually resonate with me are Kansas City and Dallas.  If I could just go anywhere, I would probably go to Austin, Denver, or Portland.

And there were people who tried to blame the Moore tornadoes on gays.  A lot of people in the heartland have that mindset and it really shows how heartless and cold they are.  I remember this type of Christianity, while it existed on the east coast, was far less prevalent.

http://govtslaves.info/2013/05/worlds-worst-tornado-came-one-day-after-ok-began-gay-pride-week-parade/

Oklahoma City is the worst city in North America.  It's a right-wing hellhole filled with Bible thumpers.  Tulsa is a little better but not by much.  Both OKC and Tulsa are better than rural Oklahoma but suck compared to any other sizable city in the USA.  Oklahoma is basically a fundamentalist Christian version of Saudi Arabia or Iran.  It's like this place is cursed.

I am literally thinking of selling everything I own this summer, quitting my job, moving, and hoping for the best.  That's how unhappy I am and how tired I am of living in this pathetic hellhole of a state.  I feel like my life won't end well if I don't.


If you need to live in the south, come down to one of the big cities in Texas.

I think Flagstaff is a rather cool town, although it is a bit touristy

The Twin Cities have their fair share of talent. Prince was from there. And whatever pop critics think Lipps Inc were quite a one hit wonder in the very early 80s and had a couple more hits in Europe as well (we Euros love dance music it seems). Funky town is a dance classic!

I think the best “in the middle” areas and most promissing are Houston, Austin and Dallas and the Twin Cities. Minneapolis and Saint Paul are so beautiful despite the chilly winters and still get more sunlight hours than most of Europe. :)

St. Louis is doing bad but it can capitalize on its rich history. I saw so many cool very old buildings using street view, but they are left to decay which is a shame.

Apart from those little is heard here from other midwestern and other flyover states. Maybe Portland and Denver are often talked about for some reason.

Culturally it’s fair to say it has concentrated mostly in the coasts, notably LA and NY. But mostly LA area. NY is more business and mainly theater these days. Music also moved to LA.

Is Saint Paul cheap compared to say London? I hope one day I get to visit it. For whatever reason I’ve always been attracted to American culture and not only the LA/NYC we mostly see here in Europe. I liked the way Roseanne portrayed regular US folk living a normal Midwestern I assume lives (only the early seasons I mean ;))