Do you think for the past couple years we've been in a fourth wave of feminism? I've heard a lot about women's issues lately, particularly the concept of rape culture and cyberbullying. I think much of it has to do with women being harassed on the internet.

I had never even heard terms like "trigger warning" until 2012 or 2013. Anecdotally it seems like the teens and younger 20 somethings today are more likely to identify as feminists than women in their 30s. Before this decade started it seemed like people were weary of being thought of as feminist or politically correct while now it's increasingly seen as something to be proud of.

Actually come to think of it the whole Internet "Social justice warrior" thing was not even a big thing until maybe 3 years ago. i wonder if Occupy Wall Street is what brought it to the fore. The idea of white privilege was also not as widely known.

Feminism. Here we go.

In my teenage years I considered myself a feminist, not knowing enough about it of course. Now I consider myself egalitarian. At one time feminism was about equality, now it's become dominated by SJWs who want more than equality, but special treatment.

I despise the term "rape culture" because like the term "trigger warning," "slut shaming," and everything else you hear these days, it's making unnecessary terms for things. That said it doesn't mean there is inequality where rape is concerned and that's a very serious matter and shameful. If it happens to a man it's more often than not swept under the rug. I don't think that's right.

What do you call it when a woman who does everything to lead a man on short of verbally saying yes ends up in a situation she later regrets? Especially if both parties inhibitions were lowered to begin with? There are situations in which it's a good idea to exhibit a little caution.

There are still plenty of instances a woman is granted rights to children she should not have because everyone knows women are nothing but caring.  ::)

As for cyberbullying, I don't know. It wasn't a big phenomenon when I grew up. I'd say girls could very well make up the majority who'd chose to bully in this fashion because they're more psychological attackers who really know how to make it personal. I say that from experience though.

I'm definately not PC, I try to call it like I see it.  :-\\

There's also something of a second wave of men's right activism was well, it first got started in the '70s.


Feminism. Here we go.

In my teenage years I considered myself a feminist, not knowing enough about it of course. Now I consider myself egalitarian. At one time feminism was about equality, now it's become dominated by SJWs who want more than equality, but special treatment.

I consider myself a gender egalitarian was well, feminism has had enormous flaws from the 19th century onwards, feminism has a history of being more exclusive to white, upper middle class women and many of the early women's suffragist were very racist/sexist against black men after the passage of the 15th amendment(calling them sambos, savages, barbarians, ect.) even while black males were being subjugated with literacy tests(in voting), lynchings, and Jim Crow laws. Elizabeth Cady Stanton's "educated suffrage" argument was also very classist and excluded many poor women and women of color.

But "liberal" feminism was concerned with integrating women into public roles and dismantling legal patriarchy, so this is what I think people mean by early feminists being more for equality, it wasn't as focused on changing private behaviors and personal opinions so it seem a lot more tolerant. Then in the late 1960s radical feminists heavily criticized the older liberal feminism for trying to integrate women into what they perceived as a inherently corrupt, oppressive system.

Radical feminism attacked the more social and cultural aspects of patriarchy, so concepts like "rape culture", male privilege", "the male gaze" were created. But radical feminism is extremely divisive and extremely biased because women "enforce" patriarchal mores and expectations on men and other women, although women were more excluded in the more legalized aspects of patriarchy they are literally the other half of social/cultural patriarchy. They created a "gender as class" narrative to present all men as oppressors of all women, the kind of tribalism that is displayed in racism, classism, ect. does not exist strong enough in patriarchy because the intimate/familial relationships men and women have and women have voluntary conformed to patriarchal norms and have enforced it on their sons, daughters, husbands, ect.

Also their concept of male privilege is flawed, men benefit in specific situations but there are many situations where maleness quickly becomes a disadvantage, even a systemic disadvantage(sexism against men), especially when maleness combines with other forms of oppression, like black males being the main targets in lynchings, police violence, ect. because they were/are feared as brutes and threats.

Third wave feminism emerged to address the exclusiveness of earlier feminism and concepts like intersectionality emerged to address the combinations of race, gender, and class in the experiences of women of color but even third wave(and fourth wave feminism) is caught in the same erroneous, divisive "patriarchy is what men use to oppress womyn" narrative.

We live in a patriarch society. Women had to fight to achieve what men have been granted since the beginning of this nation-i.e. the right to vote. Once voting rights were secured for women in 1920, women have still had to fight for equal rights. The Equal Rights Amendment has failed to be ratified from 38 states to become part of the Constitution-so women have to fight for each piece of society separately.

There is the Lilly Ledbetter Act-granting equal pay for equal work. However, there is still a gap between what men & women are paid. In 2013, women were paid only about 78% of what men were paid for doing the same job.

Another issue that women have had to fight for is reproductive rights. The introduction of the pill in 1960, brought about the Sexual Revolution. However, the pill was not available to married women in some states and not available to unmarried women in others. It was the states trying to suppress women's reproductive rights.

In 1973, we had the landmark decision of Roe vs Wade which made abortion legal in this country. Now, the states are trying to roll that back. Again, it is the states who are trying to suppress women's reproductive rights.

In terms of this being a "rape culture," I hate to say it but this world has ALWAYS been a "rape culture." The only difference now is that it is being brought out into the open. And it has always been to blame the victim. "Oh she was asking for it by wearing those clothes." "It was her fault for walking alone." When you have elected officials using the term "legitimate rape" as if some rape wasn't really rape.  ::)

Another way that this patriarch society is trying to suppress women is by making people afraid of the term "feminist."  According to Webster's Dictionary:

Full Definition of FEMINISM
1
:  the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2
:  organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Nothing scary there. But listening to some people, it is something to fear. I think their biggest fear will be to end the patriarch society and an egalitarian society will emerge.

And I'm sure you have noticed that I did not say that men were suppressing women. I said the states were-and are. Granted the state legislatures are ruled mostly by men but there are some women who vote for this crap. My point is that it is not a women vs men issue. It is the people vs the states and their billion dollar donors who want to keep the masses ignorant & divided. But, that is another issue.



Cat   

What is "rape culture"? ???

In my teenage years I considered myself a feminist, not knowing enough about it of course. Now I consider myself egalitarian. At one time feminism was about equality, now it's become dominated by SJWs who want more than equality, but special treatment.
I grew up with two of the most "feminist" women I know, my mother & sister.  I've not heard either of them use the word for years, though.  Not entirely sure why, but it might be to do with the small but very vociferous minority for whom misandry would be a better definition than feminism - the type that thinks that to be "feminist" means you have to demean men at every opportunity. (If I may be allowed a slightly bragging-by-association diversion at this point: my mother was recently awarded an honorary doctorate by the local uni partly for her environmental work, but also her championing of women in politics & other areas.  She was one of the founders of the 300 group, to get 300 women in parliament; she founded an international travel organization for women.. she has been an inspiration to huge numbers of women in many different countries.  She's the reason I'd probably describe myself as a feminist, too)

Thing is, that in almost any grouping, be it men, women, Christians, Muslims, atheists - you find a vocal extreme who seem to get all the air time.  Instant news, social media & the internet have meant that these extremes have more reach than ever before, so everyone hears a lot more about (& especially from) them.  We all need to learn that the fundamentalist voices of the extremes do not necessarily represent the whole of a group, even if they happen to be the only voices one hears.

There's certainly a bunch of idiot extreme men who seem to be out to attack (online) any woman who speaks out, be it Emma Watson or Zoe Quinn (if you've not come across the #gamergate controversy, then I envy your ignorance), going as far as death/rape threats in "retaliation" though there's been nothing against which to retaliate.

I have to admit I'm not comfortable with terms such as "rape culture", partly because the only times I've heard them used in conversation were to quash argument: because this exists, any male/female interaction has to be viewed through this lens, even though it doesn't ring true for the overwhelming majority of my circle of friends & acquaintances. And there is definitely still a tendency amongst those with power & influence to share it mainly with people like them - typically white, anglo-saxon men as they're the ones with the power & influence.  The tendency to think that someone like yourself is going to be the best for the job is not necessarily sexist or racist, but because you think the person most like "you" will be able to do things like "you".. thus does privilege pass itself on.  It's difficult to break these sorts of cycles, but more has been done in the past few decades than in the rest of history put together.

My view:

Gender equality is a noble goal, and one that should be realized. So I'm ok with most past and present feminists.

However, some people think they're feminists, and they're really not. Those who claim that "microagressions" are everything. Those who think that they're somehow better than everybody. In a serious way.

Like this one!

http://i.imgur.com/QMbGVLG.png

My view:

Gender equality is a noble goal, and one that should be realized. So I'm ok with most past and present feminists.

However, some people think they're feminists, and they're really not. Those who claim that "microagressions" are everything. Those who think that they're somehow better than everybody. In a serious way.

Like this one!

http://i.imgur.com/QMbGVLG.png
And this is why extremists don't represent the entire group. She went too far with that comment. I don't even think she's a real feminist.

What is "rape culture"? ???


never heard of rape culture before.

My view:

Gender equality is a noble goal, and one that should be realized. So I'm ok with most past and present feminists.

However, some people think they're feminists, and they're really not. Those who claim that "microagressions" are everything. Those who think that they're somehow better than everybody. In a serious way.

Like this one!

http://i.imgur.com/QMbGVLG.png


What is she so angry about?  ???

And this is why extremists don't represent the entire group. She went too far with that comment. I don't even think she's a real feminist.

Completely agree; it's people like her (becoming unfortunately more common) that are tarnishing the name of those who actually are for rights.


What is she so angry about?  ???


Men exist and think they have a right to an opinion on something.

I'm a feminin.

Men exist and think they have a right to an opinion on something.

But it's true, I mean we don't? ???

But it's true, I mean we don't? ???


...


Listen to me you twat, your a fudgeing WHITE MALE. White males don't get to talk sheesh about ANY woman. It doesn't matter what they've done. They especially don't get to talk sheesh about strong, independent black women. You lost that right when you were born with that pink cock between your legs. I'm a woman, I'm a feminist. That means I'm automatically worth 100 of you. I want your donations, but I don't want to hear you talk about how people are "equal" anymore. Women > Men. End of.


Unfortunately, more of these people are coming out of the woodwork, the people who are actual feminists (pre-the name being adopted by the insane people you see here) are getting criticism because their reputation is being tarnished by these awful people.

Completely agree; it's people like her (becoming unfortunately more common) that are tarnishing the name of those who actually are for rights.
and because of people like her, that's when all of those generalizations come up about feminists that are not true.

People that are overly aggressive or judgmental of others don't get very far with their points of views. We all get aggressive once in a while but these people are just mostly looking for attention, and are aggressive all the time.

We live in a patriarch society. Women had to fight to achieve what men have been granted since the beginning of this nation-i.e. the right to vote. Once voting rights were secured for women in 1920, women have still had to fight for equal rights. The Equal Rights Amendment has failed to be ratified from 38 states to become part of the Constitution-so women have to fight for each piece of society separately.

There is the Lilly Ledbetter Act-granting equal pay for equal work. However, there is still a gap between what men & women are paid. In 2013, women were paid only about 78% of what men were paid for doing the same job.

Another issue that women have had to fight for is reproductive rights. The introduction of the pill in 1960, brought about the Sexual Revolution. However, the pill was not available to married women in some states and not available to unmarried women in others. It was the states trying to suppress women's reproductive rights.

In 1973, we had the landmark decision of Roe vs Wade which made abortion legal in this country. Now, the states are trying to roll that back. Again, it is the states who are trying to suppress women's reproductive rights.

In terms of this being a "rape culture," I hate to say it but this world has ALWAYS been a "rape culture." The only difference now is that it is being brought out into the open. And it has always been to blame the victim. "Oh she was asking for it by wearing those clothes." "It was her fault for walking alone." When you have elected officials using the term "legitimate rape" as if some rape wasn't really rape.  ::)

Another way that this patriarch society is trying to suppress women is by making people afraid of the term "feminist."  According to Webster's Dictionary:

Full Definition of FEMINISM
1
:  the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2
:  organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Nothing scary there. But listening to some people, it is something to fear. I think their biggest fear will be to end the patriarch society and an egalitarian society will emerge.

And I'm sure you have noticed that I did not say that men were suppressing women. I said the states were-and are. Granted the state legislatures are ruled mostly by men but there are some women who vote for this crap. My point is that it is not a women vs men issue. It is the people vs the states and their billion dollar donors who want to keep the masses ignorant & divided. But, that is another issue.



Cat 

The states absolutely are, and some women are indeed part of the problem. Priveledged people who think they're so lofty as to be above the issues "common" people might face. The birth control controversy is still going and all I see are double standards on these matters. Rape blame is nothing new, but it pertains to men and women like I said earlier. In modern times it's appalling that such a serious violation on a person less than murder is not taken seriously. Women must have been asking for it, while men can't be raped or it must not have happened. That's the attitude I've seen.


My view:

Gender equality is a noble goal, and one that should be realized. So I'm ok with most past and present feminists.

However, some people think they're feminists, and they're really not. Those who claim that "microagressions" are everything. Those who think that they're somehow better than everybody. In a serious way.

Like this one!

http://i.imgur.com/QMbGVLG.png

That's Tumblr for you.  ::) SJW's at their finest. That's not feminism, that's female supremacy. What discussion does it promote other than invoking a WW3 style flame war?

The states absolutely are, and some women are indeed part of the problem. Priveledged people who think they're so lofty as to be above the issues "common" people might face. The birth control controversy is still going and all I see are double standards on these matters. Rape blame is nothing new, but it pertains to men and women like I said earlier. In modern times it's appalling that such a serious violation on a person less than murder is not taken seriously.


I think rape is taken very seriously; I've heard people seriously advocate for executing rapists. Seems a bit OTT to me  :o , but I could get behind life in prison for serial offenders. I think the fact people take rape allegations so seriously is part of the reason they are also so skeptical of them.

I think rape is taken very seriously; I've heard people seriously advocate for executing rapists. Seems a bit OTT to me  :o , but I could get behind life in prison for serial offenders. I think the fact people take rape allegations so seriously is part of the reason they are also so skeptical of them.

In court and by the law yes, largely but not entirely. There are still incidents that are swept under the rug and offenders who get slaps on the wrist. With society the urge to blame is still there and isn't going away.


People that are overly aggressive or judgmental of others don't get very far with their points of views. We all get aggressive once in a while but these people are just mostly looking for attention, and are aggressive all the time.

Those people just want to be loud and drown out everyone else. It's impossible to have a discussion with them because they essentially stick their fingers in their ears while shouting over you. They want to dominate is all they want and they say so and so isn't allowed to say anything to them for some pretty weak reasons.

What is "rape culture"? ???


I'm a dude, so by SJW values I can't comment. But I'm going to anyways.

My take on it is that rape culture is a confluence of the notions that either "she was asking for it" (false; just because she was well-dressed doesn't mean she wanted sex), "she was lying about it" (neither-true-nor-false-and-both-true-and-false-at-the-same-time; although false allegations of rape have been known to occur, the way the courts treat rape victims/accusers is at least as bad as it treats those accused of rape), and the notion that jokes about rape are kinda dickish (mostly true, but it depends on the context.)

If you want a real defintiion of "rape culture", it's the fact that I said it depends on the context.  If you want another definition of "rape culture", it's the fact that I think this old meme is kinda dickish but still funny, and that I don't see anything terribly wrong about posting it even without posting "Trigger warning! I'm going to post a meme about rape!" because this is a board for general discussion and I think that distinction is important.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YMWqbgPK138/TCswwUkMLLI/AAAAAAAACno/SrCFUXo13RQ/s400/box-of-rape.jpg

On the other hand, I wouldn't post that meme on a board, or even in a thread about sexual abuse survivors, even with a trigger warning.  Because I know damn well that most people on such a board or interested in such a topic, don't want to open the damn box.  (I'm a dick, but even I'm not that big of a dick.)

I actually think the concept of a "trigger warning" is actually one of the few positive offshoots of the present internet flamewar that's erupted after a few years of quiet simmering.  I believe it's just as dickish to make a rape joke to a woman as it is to walk up behind a veteran and yell "BANG!"

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/84/90/92/849092bbab4899f211a928589e8e3529.jpg

Doing this to a weapons designer who will never see a day of combat in his life has been hilariously funny since the 80s, and it still is.  Doing this as an able-bodied civilian at the VFW, where some the people at the bar may be self-medicating in order to deal with PTSD, is the opposite of funny.  (The one-legged guy who makes the same joke is different -- everyone knows that telling jokes that end in "BANG!" is his way of coping.)

Humor works better when the joke teller punches up, not down.  Engineer yelling BANG to co-worker, funny.  Colonel yelling BANG to corporal trying to defuse bomb, not so much. 

Sperglord gamer teabags defeated female oponnent, and female gamer tells sperglord that he can teabag her in his dreams, funny.  Sperglord doxxing a developer, not so much.  (To any Aspies reading this, please accept my sincere apologies.  Being a sperglord has nothing to do with Asperger's, and it kinda sucks that you got tarred with that brush.  I believe an appropriate term for gamers-who-harass-gamers is now "paint-huffing *poop*goblins".  It's hard to keep up these days, and in anticipation of the next wave of social justice, I apologize in advance to any poopgoblins here who actually huff paint :)

...

Unfortunately, more of these people are coming out of the woodwork, the people who are actual feminists (pre-the name being adopted by the insane people you see here) are getting criticism because their reputation is being tarnished by these awful people.


I was just answering her, Why can't we have an opinion?

I sort of consider myself a feminist. The bit of reluctance to use that label stems from the fact that I don't consider myself an activist, and I tend to not be outspoken about my beliefs most of the time. I can say for certain that I support feminist causes.

BTW, what and when were the other three waves?

First-wave feminism refers to a period of feminist activity during the 19th and early 20th century throughout the world, particularly in the United Kingdom, Canada, the Netherlands and the United States. It focused on legal disabilities, primarily on gaining women's suffrage (the right to vote).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-wave_feminism

Second-wave feminism is a period of feminist activity that first began in the early 1960s in the United States, and eventually spread throughout the Western world and beyond. In the United States the movement lasted through the early 1980s. It later became a worldwide movement that was strong in Europe and parts of Asia, such as Turkey and Israel, where it began in the 1980s, and it began at other times in other countries.

Whereas first-wave feminism focused mainly on suffrage and overturning legal obstacles to gender equality (i.e., voting rights, property rights), second-wave feminism broadened the debate to a wide range of issues: sexuality, family, the workplace, reproductive rights, de facto inequalities, and official legal inequalities.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism

Third-wave feminism is a term identified with several diverse strains of feminist activity and study, whose exact boundaries in the history of feminism are a subject of debate, but are generally marked as beginning in the early 1990s and continuing to the present. The movement arose partially as a response to the perceived failures of and backlash against initiatives and movements created by second-wave feminism during the 1960s, '70s, and '80s, and the perception that women are of "many colors, ethnicities, nationalities, religions and cultural backgrounds". As political and economic equality has been granted to women in most parts of the western world, Third Wave feminists have broadened their goals, focusing on ideas like queer theory, abolishing gender roles and stereotypes, and defending sex work, pornography, reproductive rights, and sex-positivity.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism