It seems that the oil industry has won the latest battle against the Obama Administration.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37841204/ns/disaster_in_the_gulf/



Cat

The blanket ban on deepwater drilling was arbitrary and with no basis of fact. It's like shutting down the airline industry because a plane Full of people crashed.

I'm interested in what rule of law allows the govt to shut down an industry in this manner.  Have not read the judge's decision yet so it will be some interesting reading.

Meanwhile, O'bama's assault on the economy continues. 

The blanket ban on deepwater drilling was arbitrary and with no basis of fact. It's like shutting down the airline industry because a plane Full of people crashed.

I'm interested in what rule of law allows the govt to shut down an industry in this manner.  Have not read the judge's decision yet so it will be some interesting reading.

Meanwhile, O'bama's assault on the economy continues.   



What about the oil industry's assault on the environment?



Cat

What about the oil industry's assault on the environment?

Cat


Oh, I am not cutting BP any slack on this.  But the rest of the industry has not been spewing gushers into the Gulf, and various industry sources have clearly stated that BP violated any number of basic rules of safe drilling and well maintenance & operation.  Those safety rules were developed by "Big Oil".

If O'bama had exercised a 6-month-until-proven-competent ban on BP/Anandarko/Mitsui drilling, I'd say "no problem, they need a full-blown audit to prove they will be safe".  But instead a ban was put to the entire industry and that is wrong.

We did not see a wholesale shutdown of the coal mining industry after the Upper Big Branch mine disaster a few months ago.  What WAS done (in the state of West Virginia) is the state requested a one-day standdown, where each mine went through a safety audit.  That's much more reasonable, but they did not shut down the coal mining industry for six months.

Oh, I am not cutting BP any slack on this.  But the rest of the industry has not been spewing gushers into the Gulf, and various industry sources have clearly stated that BP violated any number of basic rules of safe drilling and well maintenance & operation.  Those safety rules were developed by "Big Oil".

If O'bama had exercised a 6-month-until-proven-competent ban on BP/Anandarko/Mitsui drilling, I'd say "no problem, they need a full-blown audit to prove they will be safe".  But instead a ban was put to the entire industry and that is wrong.

We did not see a wholesale shutdown of the coal mining industry after the Upper Big Branch mine disaster a few months ago.  What WAS done (in the state of West Virginia) is the state requested a one-day standdown, where each mine went through a safety audit.  That's much more reasonable, but they did not shut down the coal mining industry for six months.




1967
    March 18, Cornwall, Eng.: Torrey Canyon ran aground, spilling 38 million gallons of crude oil off the Scilly Islands.

1976
    Dec. 15, Buzzards Bay, Mass.: Argo Merchant ran aground and broke apart southeast of Nantucket Island, spilling its entire cargo of 7.7 million gallons of fuel oil.

1977
    April, North Sea: blowout of well in Ekofisk oil field leaked 81 million gallons.

1978
    March 16, off Portsall, France: wrecked supertanker Amoco Cadiz spilled 68 million gallons, causing widespread environmental damage over 100 mi of Brittany coast.

1979
    June 3, Gulf of Mexico: exploratory oil well Ixtoc 1 blew out, spilling an estimated 140 million gallons of crude oil into the open sea. Although it is one of the largest known oil spills, it had a low environmental impact.
    July 19, Tobago: the Atlantic Empress and the Aegean Captain collided, spilling 46 million gallons of crude. While being towed, the Atlantic Empress spilled an additional 41 million gallons off Barbados on Aug. 2.

1980
    March 30, Stavanger, Norway: floating hotel in North Sea collapsed, killing 123 oil workers.

1983
    Feb. 4, Persian Gulf, Iran: Nowruz Field platform spilled 80 million gallons of oil.
    Aug. 6, Cape Town, South Africa: the Spanish tanker Castillo de Bellver caught fire, spilling 78 million gallons of oil off the coast.

1988
    July 6, North Sea off Scotland: 166 workers killed in explosion and fire on Occidental Petroleum's Piper Alpha rig in North Sea; 64 survivors. It is the world's worst offshore oil disaster.
    Nov. 10, Saint John's, Newfoundland: Odyssey spilled 43 million gallons of oil.

1989
    March 24, Prince William Sound, Alaska: tanker Exxon Valdez hit an undersea reef and spilled 10 million–plus gallons of oil into the water, causing the worst oil spill in U.S. history.
    Dec. 19, off Las Palmas, the Canary Islands: explosion in Iranian supertanker, the Kharg-5, caused 19 million gallons of crude oil to spill into Atlantic Ocean about 400 mi north of Las Palmas, forming a 100-square-mile oil slick.

1990
    June 8, off Galveston, Tex.: Mega Borg released 5.1 million gallons of oil some 60 nautical miles south-southeast of Galveston as a result of an explosion and subsequent fire in the pump room.

1991
    Jan. 23–27, southern Kuwait: during the Persian Gulf War, Iraq deliberately released 240–460 million gallons of crude oil into the Persian Gulf from tankers 10 mi off Kuwait. Spill had little military significance. On Jan. 27, U.S. warplanes bombed pipe systems to stop the flow of oil.
    April 11, Genoa, Italy: Haven spilled 42 million gallons of oil in Genoa port.
    May 28, Angola: ABT Summer exploded and leaked 15–78 million gallons of oil off the coast of Angola. It's not clear how much sank or burned.

1992
    March 2, Fergana Valley, Uzbekistan: 88 million gallons of oil spilled from an oil well.

1993
    Aug. 10, Tampa Bay, Fla.: three ships collided, the barge Bouchard B155, the freighter Balsa 37, and the barge Ocean 255. The Bouchard spilled an estimated 336,000 gallons of No. 6 fuel oil into Tampa Bay.

1994
    Sept. 8, Russia: dam built to contain oil burst and spilled oil into Kolva River tributary. U.S. Energy Department estimated spill at 2 million barrels. Russian state-owned oil company claimed spill was only 102,000 barrels.

1996
    Feb. 15, off Welsh coast: supertanker Sea Empress ran aground at port of Milford Haven, Wales, spewed out 70,000 tons of crude oil, and created a 25-mile slick.

1999
    Dec. 12, French Atlantic coast: Maltese-registered tanker Erika broke apart and sank off Britanny, spilling 3 million gallons of heavy oil into the sea.

2000
    Jan. 18, off Rio de Janeiro: ruptured pipeline owned by government oil company, Petrobras, spewed 343,200 gallons of heavy oil into Guanabara Bay.
    Nov. 28, Mississippi River south of New Orleans: oil tanker Westchester lost power and ran aground near Port Sulphur, La., dumping 567,000 gallons of crude oil into lower Mississippi. Spill was largest in U.S. waters since Exxon Valdez disaster in March 1989.

2002
    Nov. 13, Spain: Prestige suffered a damaged hull and was towed to sea and sank. Much of the 20 million gallons of oil remains underwater.

2003
    July 28, Pakistan: The Tasman Spirit, a tanker, ran aground near the Karachi port, and eventually cracked into two pieces. One of its four oil tanks burst open, leaking 28,000 tons of crude oil into the sea.

2004
    Dec. 7, Unalaska, Aleutian Islands, Alaska: A major storm pushed the M/V Selendang Ayu up onto a rocky shore, breaking it in two. 337,000 gallons of oil were released, most of which was driven onto the shoreline of Makushin and Skan Bays.

2005
    Aug.-Sept., New Orleans, Louisiana: The Coast Guard estimated that more than 7 million gallons of oil were spilled during Hurricane Katrina from various sources, including pipelines, storage tanks and industrial plants.

2006
    June 19, Calcasieu River, Louisiana: An estimated 71,000 barrels of waste oil were released from a tank at the CITGO Refinery on the Calcasieu River during a violent rain storm.
    July 15, Beirut, Lebanon: The Israeli navy bombs the Jieh coast power station, and between three million and ten million gallons of oil leaks into the sea, affecting nearly 100 miles of coastline. A coastal blockade, a result of the war, greatly hampers outside clean-up efforts.
    August 11th, Guimaras island, The Philippines: A tanker carrying 530,000 gallons of oil sinks off the coast of the Philippines, putting the country's fishing and tourism industries at great risk. The ship sinks in deep water, making it virtually unrecoverable, and it continues to emit oil into the ocean as other nations are called in to assist in the massive clean-up effort.

2007
    December 7, South Korea: Oil spill causes environmental disaster, destroying beaches, coating birds and oysters with oil, and driving away tourists with its stench. The Hebei Spirit collides with a steel wire connecting a tug boat and barge five miles off South Korea's west coast, spilling 2.8 million gallons of crude oil. Seven thousand people are trying to clean up 12 miles of oil-coated coast.

2008
    July 25, New Orleans, Louisiana: A 61-foot barge, carrying 419,000 gallons of heavy fuel, collides with a 600-foot tanker ship in the Mississippi River near New Orleans. Hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel leak from the barge, causing a halt to all river traffic while cleanup efforts commence to limit the environmental fallout on local wildlife.

2009
    March 11, Queensland, Australia: During Cyclone Hamish, unsecured cargo aboard the container ship MV Pacific Adventurer came loose on deck and caused the release of 52,000 gallons of heavy fuel and 620 tons of ammonium nitrate, a fertilizer, into the Coral Sea. About 60 km of the Sunshine Coast was covered in oil, prompting the closure of half the area's beaches.

2010
    Jan. 23, Port Arthur, Texas: The oil tanker Eagle Otome and a barge collide in the Sabine-Neches Waterway, causing the release of about 462,000 gallons of crude oil. Environmental damage was minimal as about 46,000 gallons were recovered and 175,000 gallons were dispersed or evaporated, according to the U.S. Coast Guard.
    April 24, Gulf of Mexico: The Deepwater Horizon, a semi-submersible drilling rig, sank on April 22, after an April 20th explosion on the vessel. Eleven people died in the blast. When the rig sank, the riser—the 5,000-foot-long pipe that connects the wellhead to the rig—became detached and began leaking oil. In addition, U.S. Coast Guard investigators discovered a leak in the wellhead itself. As much as 60,000 barrels of oil per day were leaking into the water, threatening wildlife along the Louisiana Coast. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano declared it a "spill of national significance." BP (British Petroleum), which leased the Deepwater Horizon, is responsible for the cleanup, but the U.S. Navy supplied the company with resources to help contain the slick. Oil reached the Louisiana shore on April 30, affected about 125 miles of coast. By early June, oil had also reached Florida, Alabama, and Mississippi. It is the largest oil spill in U.S. history.



http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001451.html



Cat

So... are we going to shut down entire industries every time there is an accident?  I don't think so.

So... are we going to shut down entire industries every time there is an accident?  I don't think so.



It is not that there is just one accident. The entire industry has been polluting this world more and more. They come up with more and more ways to drill but do not come up with better ways to clean up their mess. BP is using the exact same technology to clean up the mess they are creating as they used back in the 60s. And the entire industry could care less about that-that is why they have NOT invested in clean up technology. Also, oil drilling is going to get harder and harder. There is only a finite amount of oil under the ground. What is going to happen when it is all gone? That is why we (as a nation and as the entire world) should start moving away from oil. For too long now, the oil industry has been running the world. We go to wars over oil. People die because of oil. Fish and birds die because of oil. Politicians are bought by the oil industry (granted there are more industries that also buy politicians but the oil industry has more politicians in their back pocket than any other). Also, the oil industry gets kick backs from the government-don't pay any taxes at the same time they gouge the consumer because they know we can't live without oil-from making our vehicles run, to heating our homes, to running our computers and lots of other stuff. I once read an article about dead dinosaurs everywhere-plastics, lip balm, electronics, etc, etc. Yes, we do live in a petroleum based society but my point is, we need to move away from it. It is not healthy.



Cat 

Great argument for expanded coal technology.  ;)

So... are we going to shut down entire industries every time there is an accident?  I don't think so.


It's an "accident" in the same way that it's an accident when a bridge collapses because they decided the iron rebar wasn't needed in the cement because it takes too long. They knowingly cut corners that put the drill at risk to save money and time.  Now they should pay the price. All these oil companies are so intertwined that I doubt there's a single drilling project that doesn't employ BP as some part of the operation.

oh, and the judge who overturned the ban happens to own stock in the oil companies that were fighting the ban. 

Oh, I am not cutting BP any slack on this. 


No slack on the slick.  No slack slick? 
???

So... are we going to shut down entire industries every time there is an accident?  I don't think so.


I seem to remember an entire fleet of jets, forgot which model, was grounded for inspection after a crash.  Same thing here.  And it isn't the entire industry that was shut down.

It's an "accident" in the same way that it's an accident when a bridge collapses because they decided the iron rebar wasn't needed in the cement because it takes too long. They knowingly cut corners that put the drill at risk to save money and time.  Now they should pay the price. All these oil companies are so intertwined that I doubt there's a single drilling project that doesn't employ BP as some part of the operation.

oh, and the judge who overturned the ban happens to own stock in the oil companies that were fighting the ban.



I found this out AFTER I turned off the computer yesterday.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100623/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill


But there is no conflict of interest there.  ::)


THAT is what I mean about the oil industry running the country in my earlier post!



Cat

I found this out AFTER I turned off the computer yesterday.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100623/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill


But there is no conflict of interest there.  ::)


THAT is what I mean about the oil industry running the country in my earlier post!



Cat


Yeah this whole conflict of interest thing is worrisome.  I would have thought the judiciary would have stringent rules about a judge either disclosing beforehand, or recusing from the case.  Not a good dituation for sure, and it raises the question of a judge who might not be impartial on the issue.

Great argument for expanded coal technology.   ;)


Yeah, they're flattening West Virginia trying to get at the stuff.  Talk about sickening stories.  What's happening in Appalachia is bad mojo. 

The Chinese are going after their coal deposits like we did 100 years ago.  A lot of miners are dying over there, but the goal is to get the coal out of the ground, not safe working conditions.  They don't exactly have OSHA over there!
::)

Clean coal???  The biggest non-sequitur of them all. 

Clean coal???  The biggest non-sequitur of them all. 


Gee, Mr. PR Guy, we can't sell this stuff.  It's coal!
Call it "Clean Coal"!
Golly, thanks Mr. PR Guy!  Here's $200,000 in cash and 3 million in stock options!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/iamwithstupid.gif

Screw oil and coal.

It's time to go nuclear.

Screw oil and coal.

It's time to go nuclear.



Nuclear is just as bad as oil & coal. We are dealing with Vermont Yankee which has 2 years to go on its contract and I'm not too sure if it will last that long. In the last few years there has been I don't know how many leaks and the cooling tower collapsed. It is being help together with duct tape & bubble gum. And it's owners is trying to convince people to let it go for another 20 years!  :o :o :o


http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/assets/binaries/vermont-yankee-time-line-incid


Unfortunately, the link doesn't include the year(s).

Despite the propaganda, nuclear is NOT clean energy. You have all sorts of spent fuel rods & nuclear waste that will last for thousands of years.

The best forms of energy are hydro, solar, wind, & bio.

COW POWER!!!!!



Cat

Screw oil and coal.

It's time to go nuclear.


Hey! No nukes, man!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/jinnwink.gif

Nuclear is just as bad as oil & coal. We are dealing with Vermont Yankee which has 2 years to go on its contract and I'm not too sure if it will last that long. In the last few years there has been I don't know how many leaks and the cooling tower collapsed. It is being help together with duct tape & bubble gum. And it's owners is trying to convince people to let it go for another 20 years!  :o :o :o


http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/assets/binaries/vermont-yankee-time-line-incid


Unfortunately, the link doesn't include the year(s).

Despite the propaganda, nuclear is NOT clean energy. You have all sorts of spent fuel rods & nuclear waste that will last for thousands of years.

The best forms of energy are hydro, solar, wind, & bio.

COW POWER!!!!!



What about Cat power?

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/02/catsmiley.gif

Vermont Yankee is a scary hellhole that should have been decommissioned 20 years ago!!!!!

I'm actually in the line of fire for radiation if the spaghetti hits the fan over there!

An activists I know of got arrested at a Vermont Yankee protest.  I just kept thinking, I wouldn't even want get near the joint without a space suite!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/ptitmartien.gif

What about Cat power?

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/02/catsmiley.gif

Vermont Yankee is a scary hellhole that should have been decommissioned 20 years ago!!!!!

I'm actually in the line of fire for radiation if the spaghetti hits the fan over there!

An activists I know of got arrested at a Vermont Yankee protest.  I just kept thinking, I wouldn't even want get near the joint without a space suite!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/ptitmartien.gif



Yeah, you are in the line of fire. I used to be. I lived within 10 miles of the plant and used to work basically at ground zero (about a mile from the plant). BTW, did you hear that they are going to hold a public hearing about shutting it down?


http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20100627/NEWS02/6270387


BTW, Cat Power works, too.  ;)




Cat

Yeah, you are in the line of fire. I used to be. I lived within 10 miles of the plant and used to work basically at ground zero (about a mile from the plant). BTW, did you hear that they are going to hold a public hearing about shutting it down?




Yes.  Best of luck in their endeavor.  What gives me the willies is they have to hold a public hearing at this point.  I mean, there's just cisterns of radioactive waste sitting in the open air.  If there was earthquake or something else spilled that stuff, you can say sayanora to anything to do with the Connecticut river system from White River Junction to Old Saybrook!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/03/crossbones.gif

Nuclear is just as bad as oil & coal. We are dealing with Vermont Yankee which has 2 years to go on its contract and I'm not too sure if it will last that long. In the last few years there has been I don't know how many leaks and the cooling tower collapsed. It is being help together with duct tape & bubble gum. And it's owners is trying to convince people to let it go for another 20 years!  :o :o :o


http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/assets/binaries/vermont-yankee-time-line-incid


Unfortunately, the link doesn't include the year(s).

Despite the propaganda, nuclear is NOT clean energy. You have all sorts of spent fuel rods & nuclear waste that will last for thousands of years.

The best forms of energy are hydro, solar, wind, & bio.

COW POWER!!!!!



Cat


Speaking of propaganda...  Greenpeace?  Really...  Look, if France and Canada can flourish with nuclear power, why can't we?  Hell, we'd love to have their socialized medicine, so why doesn't their energy policy apply too?

Speaking of propaganda...  Greenpeace?  Really...   Look, if France and Canada can flourish with nuclear power, why can't we?  Hell, we'd love to have their socialized medicine, so why doesn't their energy policy apply too?


Okay, but it's gotta be tightly regulated.  You can't cut corners to make a profit like BP when you are fissioning (is that a word?) uranium molecules!
:-\\

Okay, but it's gotta be tightly regulated.  You can't cut corners to make a profit like BP when you are fissioning (is that a word?) uranium molecules!
:-\\

Absolutely.  They don't cut corners in either of those countries, so surely we're capable of being responsible as well.

Besides, if the defining argument against nuclear power is the worry of cutting corners, then I'm not sure why the same people who believe that would want us to engage in socialized medicine.

I would think one thing both sides can agree on is that cutting corners with nuclear power plants and with medicine is a terrible thing, but it doesn't mean we should give up on a functional system for both.

Absolutely.  They don't cut corners in either of those countries, so surely we're capable of being responsible as well.

Besides, if the defining argument against nuclear power is the worry of cutting corners, then I'm not sure why the same people who believe that would want us to engage in socialized medicine.

I would think one thing both sides can agree on is that cutting corners with nuclear power plants and with medicine is a terrible thing, but it doesn't mean we should give up on a functional system for both.


It depends on how your country goes about socialized/nationalized health care.  If it is only the poor and the low-income elderly receiving government subsidized health care, then the fat cats are going to chisel away at it as much as they can so the rich can get their tax cuts.  If everybody is in the system, it's much harder for the government to cut corners.  That's why the bastards were able to decimate welfare but not Social Security.

No one is better at cutting corners than HMOs. 

The reason the BP disaster happened is America's can-do attitude when it comes to satisfying the greed of corporations. 

It depends on how your country goes about socialized/nationalized health care.  If it is only the poor and the low-income elderly receiving government subsidized health care, then the fat cats are going to chisel away at it as much as they can so the rich can get their tax cuts.  If everybody is in the system, it's much harder for the government to cut corners.  That's why the bastards were able to decimate welfare but not Social Security.

No one is better at cutting corners than HMOs.  

The reason the BP disaster happened is America's can-do attitude when it comes to satisfying the greed of corporations.  


I agree, but that's why we should probably use France's models for both healthcare and nuclear power.  They have one of the best NHS's that exist, and their nuclear power infrastructure is very safe and efficient.

I agree, but that's why we should probably use France's models for both healthcare and nuclear power.  They have one of the best NHS's that exist, and their nuclear power infrastructure is very safe and efficient.


But nuclear power is fat from green when you factor in the mining, refining and transport of the fuel, not to mention the waste problem

But nuclear power is fat from green when you factor in the mining, refining and transport of the fuel, not to mention the waste problem


Even thought the French use breeder reactors, they still dump a godawful amount of nuclear waste into the ocean, and just hope the terrorists don't make any of those plants a target!
:o

But nuclear power is fat from green when you factor in the mining, refining and transport of the fuel, not to mention the waste problem


You have to start somewhere, and I still believe that nuclear is cleaner and safer than coal and oil.

You have to start somewhere, and I still believe that nuclear is cleaner and safer than coal and oil.


And some people believe in the tooth fairy (sorry for being snide) - two names - Chernobyl and Three Mile Island.

The answer has to be much greater conservation, wind, solar, hydro (including tidal - the bay of Fundy had a 40 foot tidal flow), geothermal etc.  And we need to change our life style by lowering consumption at all levels.

And some people believe in the tooth fairy (sorry for being snide) - two names - Chernobyl and Three Mile Island.

The answer has to be much greater conservation, wind, solar, hydro (including tidal - the bay of Fundy had a 40 foot tidal flow), geothermal etc.  And we need to change our life style by lowering consumption at all levels.


This is the unacceptable face of the end of cheap oil. 

The silver lining might be an end to the so-called obesity epidemic.  More time planting beans, less time playing video games!

Work Shall Set You Free
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/tard.gif

And some people believe in the tooth fairy (sorry for being snide) - two names - Chernobyl and Three Mile Island.

Three words...  We're not Russia.  Also, Three Mile Island isn't even comparable to Chernobyl when it comes to disasters.  No one died, for starters.

Again, no one can seem to answer my question on this...  If France and Canada have been fine with nuclear power all these years, why is it so bad if we put more emphasis on it?

The answer has to be much greater conservation, wind, solar, hydro (including tidal - the bay of Fundy had a 40 foot tidal flow), geothermal etc.  And we need to change our life style by lowering consumption at all levels.


Lowering consumption will naturally come from globalization as our standard of living stagnates while resources become more expensive.  Expecting our economy to run off of any of these sources with current technology is ridiculous.  Right now, the only two feasible sources of energy that can come anywhere close to meeting our needs are fossil fuels and nuclear energy.  We've seen what fossil fuels have earned us.


Nuclear is really the only feasible alternative right now.  Investing in other alternatives makes sense, but as far as reforming our infrastructure with current technology, nuclear is the only choice.

If we are to keep our mode of transportation the personal passenger car, then no combination of nuclear and renewables is going to replace what we have now. 

If we are to keep our mode of transportation the personal passenger car, then no combination of nuclear and renewables is going to replace what we have now. 


Electric cars are very viable, and the electricity they require could come from nuclear plants.

If we are to keep our mode of transportation the personal passenger car, then no combination of nuclear and renewables is going to replace what we have now. 


Tesla Motors would beg to disagree with that assessment :)

Tesla Motors would beg to disagree with that assessment :)


So would Harold and his Purple Crayon!