So now the entire gulf coast will be contaminated - an ecological disaster.  Thanks BP

"The ocean will take care of this on its own if it was left alone and left out there. It's natural. It's as natural as the ocean water is."

nope, not Sarah Palin. 

There are several MUST HAVE brand name products that I use. Dawn dishwashing soap is one. Why am I mentioning that in this thread? I'm sure most people are aware that Dawn is used to clean oil off of wildlife. For every bottle you buy, Dawn will donate $1 to wildlife.

http://dawn-dish.com/en_US/savingwildlife.do


I'm sure Dawn is going to be used BIG TIME this year.



Cat

Eleven lives lost.  They have been trying to downplay that. 

Eleven lives lost.  They have been trying to downplay that. 



So far.



Cat

Yep, more offshore drilling is clearly not the answer.

Yep, more offshore drilling is clearly not the answer.


Guys fall off of wind tower construction projects.

My great uncle was electrocuted in an electrical generating station.

Coal miners die in mines.

People died during the construction of the Hoover Dam.

There is no energy mode that if without risk and without workplace fatalities.  Oil drilling, whether maritime or land-based, is indeed a very dangerous job.

It is about managing risk, to minimize risk while getting the resources needed to run society.  If we went to a "no risk" energy policy, we would not have enough power, and people would be dying from no electricity.

Anybody who says that offshore drilling is risk free are not telling the truth.  Just as those who would say that we should not drill offshore and keep supplying the economy with oil.

Thing is, LB, the petrochemical industry and their political lapdogs were selling us the story that offshore drilling was clean and safe.  Yeah, there were f**k ups in the past, but we have better technology nowadays, we know what we're doing.

Come to find out, these BP (Busted Pipes) doesn't know wtf to do!  They're trying to put a giant condom over the thing now! 

On top of all that, the Right is trying to blame it on Obama.  He should have gotten there sooner.  What do you want Obama to do?  I thought y'all wanted the government to STAY OUT of private industry!

Except Rush, he's blaming it on ecotage by one of those Earth Firsters who got a job as an oil rig worker, but Rush is on dope.
::)

BTW, I predict this spill will double the Exxon Valdez disaster by the end.

There is no energy mode that if without risk and without workplace fatalities.  Oil drilling, whether maritime or land-based, is indeed a very dangerous job.


Well, to be fair though, few alternatives have the same catastrophic potential as offshore drilling.  Nuclear power is the only one that does, but even so, there hasn't been a major nuclear disaster in quite a while.  Offshore drilling disasters are more common.

Well, to be fair though, few alternatives have the same catastrophic potential as offshore drilling.  Nuclear power is the only one that does, but even so, there hasn't been a major nuclear disaster in quite a while.  Offshore drilling disasters are more common.


I wonder what a wind farm spill would look like...

kind of sad to see the conservative talking heads point the finger towards Obama.  not like it was built during his term, or his VP actively blocked the security measures as "too costly" from being added to the rig...

I wonder what a wind farm spill would look like...

kind of sad to see the conservative talking heads point the finger towards Obama.  not like it was built during his term, or his VP actively blocked the security measures as "too costly" from being added to the rig...


Well, Bush Derangement Syndrome has become Obama Derangement Syndrome.  People used to blame Bush for everything -- now they do the same toward Obama.

Personally, I think America just has a very vocal dumb@$$ contingent.  Unfortunately, our dumb@$$es have high speed internet as well.

Well, to be fair though, few alternatives have the same catastrophic potential as offshore drilling.  Nuclear power is the only one that does, but even so, there hasn't been a major nuclear disaster in quite a while.  Offshore drilling disasters are more common.


If something goes bad -- I mean REALLY bad -- in your nuke plant, the catastrophe would make the BP gusher look like an oil leak in a '79 Dodge Dart!
:o

Drilling, Disaster, Denial

   
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: May 2, 2010

It took futuristic technology to achieve one of the worst ecological disasters on record. Without such technology, after all, BP couldn’t have drilled the Deepwater Horizon well in the first place. Yet for those who remember their environmental history, the catastrophe in the gulf has a strangely old-fashioned feel, reminiscent of the events that led to the first Earth Day, four decades ago.

And maybe, just maybe, the disaster will help reverse environmentalism’s long political slide — a slide largely caused by our very success in alleviating highly visible pollution. If so, there may be a small silver lining to a very dark cloud.

Environmentalism began as a response to pollution that everyone could see. The spill in the gulf recalls the 1969 blowout that coated the beaches of Santa Barbara in oil. But 1969 was also the year the Cuyahoga River, which flows through Cleveland, caught fire. Meanwhile, Lake Erie was widely declared “dead,� its waters contaminated by algal blooms. And major U.S. cities — especially, but by no means only, Los Angeles — were often cloaked in thick, acrid smog.

It wasn’t that hard, under the circumstances, to mobilize political support for action. The Environmental Protection Agency was founded, the Clean Water Act was enacted, and America began making headway against its most visible environmental problems. Air quality improved: smog alerts in Los Angeles, which used to have more than 100 a year, have become rare. Rivers stopped burning, and some became swimmable again. And Lake Erie has come back to life, in part thanks to a ban on laundry detergents containing phosphates.

Yet there was a downside to this success story.

For one thing, as visible pollution has diminished, so has public concern over environmental issues. According to a recent Gallup survey, “Americans are now less worried about a series of environmental problems than at any time in the past 20 years.�

This decline in concern would be fine if visible pollution were all that mattered — but it isn’t, of course. In particular, greenhouse gases pose a greater threat than smog or burning rivers ever did. But it’s hard to get the public focused on a form of pollution that’s invisible, and whose effects unfold over decades rather than days.

Nor was a loss of public interest the only negative consequence of the decline in visible pollution. As the photogenic crises of the 1960s and 1970s faded from memory, conservatives began pushing back against environmental regulation.

Much of the pushback took the form of demands that environmental restrictions be weakened. But there was also an attempt to construct a narrative in which advocates of strong environmental protection were either extremists — “eco-Nazis,� according to Rush Limbaugh — or effete liberal snobs trying to impose their aesthetic preferences on ordinary Americans. (I’m sorry to say that the long effort to block construction of a wind farm off Cape Cod — which may finally be over thanks to the Obama administration — played right into that caricature.)

And let’s admit it: by and large, the anti-environmentalists have been winning the argument, at least as far as public opinion is concerned.

Then came the gulf disaster. Suddenly, environmental destruction was photogenic again.

For the most part, anti-environmentalists have been silent about the catastrophe. True, Mr. Limbaugh — arguably the Republican Party’s de facto leader — promptly suggested that environmentalists might have blown up the rig to head off further offshore drilling. But that remark probably reflected desperation: Mr. Limbaugh knows that his narrative has just taken a big hit.

For the gulf blowout is a pointed reminder that the environment won’t take care of itself, that unless carefully watched and regulated, modern technology and industry can all too easily inflict horrific damage on the planet.

Will America take heed? It depends a lot on leadership. In particular, President Obama needs to seize the moment; he needs to take on the “Drill, baby, drill� crowd, telling America that courting irreversible environmental disaster for the sake of a few barrels of oil, an amount that will hardly affect our dependence on imports, is a terrible bargain.

It’s true that Mr. Obama isn’t as well positioned to make this a teachable moment as he should be: just a month ago he announced a plan to open much of the Atlantic coast to oil exploration, a move that shocked many of his supporters and makes it hard for him to claim the moral high ground now.

But he needs to get beyond that. The catastrophe in the gulf offers an opportunity, a chance to recapture some of the spirit of the original Earth Day. And if that happens, some good may yet come of this ecological nightmare.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/opinion/03krugman.html



Cat

Thanks for Paul!

BP says they're going to clean up the mess, but they'll find a way to make the U.S. taxpayers/consumers foot the bill in the end. 

The Governator says he won't support offshore drilling in Calee-forn-ya now.  Then again, isn't this his last term?
???

Thanks for Paul!

BP says they're going to clean up the mess, but they'll find a way to make the U.S. taxpayers/consumers foot the bill in the end. 

The Governator says he won't support offshore drilling in Calee-forn-ya now.  Then again, isn't this his last term?
???



The Oil Pollution Act of 1990 sets the figure VERY low as to what oil companies have to paid.

Check it out.

http://www.epa.gov/oem/content/lawsregs/opaover.htmOil Pollution Act



Cat

If something goes bad -- I mean REALLY bad -- in your nuke plant, the catastrophe would make the BP gusher look like an oil leak in a '79 Dodge Dart!
:o


What are the odds of that happening though?...

What are the odds of that happening though?...


Quite low, but not zero.  Anything above zero is too high for me when it comes to a nuke plant melt down.

Quite low, but not zero.  Anything above zero is too high for me when it comes to a nuke plant melt down.



Lest we forget

http://mediastorm.org/media/0007/images/450_Link/0007.jpg

http://people.moreheadstate.edu/students/alsimp01/images/chernobyl.jpg

Lest we forget

http://mediastorm.org/media/0007/images/450_Link/0007.jpg

http://people.moreheadstate.edu/students/alsimp01/images/chernobyl.jpg



I am just totally speechless and VERY angry.


There is a battle going on about Vermont Yankee. The contract is up in 2012 and the owners want to renew it. The plant is 30 years old and is falling apart. Everyday it seems there is a new leak. I don't think it will last the 2 years it has on it contract and they want to renew it for another 30!  :o :o :o  It is being held together by bubble gum & duct tape. I really hope that they close it soon!!!




Cat

Something interesting I found while checking Wikipedia: Did you know that there are already almost 4,000 oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico?

http://www.cruisebruise.com/gulf_of_mexico_oil_platorms.jpg



Kinda interesting.

I am just totally speechless and VERY angry.


There is a battle going on about Vermont Yankee. The contract is up in 2012 and the owners want to renew it. The plant is 30 years old and is falling apart. Everyday it seems there is a new leak. I don't think it will last the 2 years it has on it contract and they want to renew it for another 30!  :o :o :o  It is being held together by bubble gum & duct tape. I really hope that they close it soon!!!




Cat


Nebraska has 2 nuclear plants, one of which, Cooper Nuclear Station, is a total piece of sh*t. They're always getting written up by the NRC for something.  :P

Lest we forget

http://mediastorm.org/media/0007/images/450_Link/0007.jpg

http://people.moreheadstate.edu/students/alsimp01/images/chernobyl.jpg


That's assuming that nuclear technology hasn't changed in 30 years.

It has...  dramatically.


If nuclear power was a bad idea, then Canada and France would be quite dead by now.

Lest we forget

http://mediastorm.org/media/0007/images/450_Link/0007.jpg

http://people.moreheadstate.edu/students/alsimp01/images/chernobyl.jpg


And Chernobyl is mild compared to what COULD happen.  In other energy businesses, there are folk songs of those rare accidents.  Wouldn't happen with a bad nuke meltdown.  Any eyewitness to it would be dead.
:-\\

And Chernobyl is mild compared to what COULD happen.  In other energy businesses, there are folk songs of those rare accidents.  Wouldn't happen with a bad nuke meltdown.  Any eyewitness to it would be dead.
:-\\



Actually, the lucky ones would be dead.



Cat

A friend of mine sent me this:






You may have heard the news in the last two days about the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig which caught fire, burned for two days, then
sank in 5,000 ft of water in the Gulf of Mexico. There are still 11 men missing, and they are not expected to be found.

The rig belongs to Transocean, the world’s biggest offshore drilling contractor. The rig was originally contracted through the year 2013 to
BP and was working on BP’s Macondo exploration well when the fire broke out. The rig costs about $500,000 per day to contract. The full
drilling spread, with helicopters and support vessels and other services, will cost closer to $1,000,000 per day to operate in the course of
drilling for oil and gas. The rig cost about $350,000,000 to build in 2001 and would cost at least double that to replace today.

The rig represents the cutting edge of drilling technology. It is a floating rig, capable of working in up to 10,000 ft water depth. The rig is
not moored; It does not use anchors because it would be too costly and too heavy to suspend this mooring load from the floating
structure. Rather, a triply-redundant computer system uses satellite positioning to control powerful thrusters that keep the rig on station
within a few feet of its intended location, at all times. This is called Dynamic Positioning.

The rig had apparently just finished cementing steel casing in place at depths exceeding 18,000 ft. The next operation was to suspend the
well so that the rig could move to its next drilling location, the idea being that a rig would return to this well later in order to complete the
work necessary to bring the well into production.

It is thought that somehow formation fluids – oil /gas – got into the wellbore and were undetected until it was too late to take action. With a
floating drilling rig setup, because it moves with the waves, currents, and winds, all of the main pressure control equipment sits on the
seabed – the uppermost unmoving point in the well. This pressure control equipment – the Blowout Preventers, or ‘BOP’s� as they’re
called, are controlled with redundant systems from the rig. In the event of a serious emergency, there are multiple Panic Buttons to hit,
and even fail-safe Deadman systems that should be automatically engaged when something of this proportion breaks out. None of them
were aparently activated, suggesting that the blowout was especially swift to escalate at the surface. The flames were visible up to about
35 miles away. Not the glow – the flames. They were 200 – 300 ft high.

All of this will be investigated and it will be some months before all of the particulars are known. For now, it is enough to say that this
marvel of modern technology, which had been operating with an excellent safety record, has burned up and sunk taking souls with it.

The well still is apparently flowing oil, which is appearing at the surface as a slick. They have been working with remotely operated
vehicles, or ROV’s which are essentially tethered miniature submarines with manipulator arms and other equipment that can perform work
underwater while the operator sits on a vessel. These are what were used to explore the Titanic, among other things. Every floating rig
has one on board and they are in constant use. In this case, they are deploying ROV’s from dedicated service vessels. They have been
trying to close the well in using a specialized port on the BOP’s and a pumping arrangement on their ROV’s. They have been unsuccessful
so far. Specialized pollution control vessels have been scrambled to start working the spill, skimming the oil up.

In the coming weeks they will move in at least one other rig to drill a fresh well that will intersect the blowing one at its pay zone. They will
use technology that is capable of drilling from a floating rig, over 3 miles deep to an exact specific point in the earth – with a target radius
of just a few feet plus or minus. Once they intersect their target, a heavy fluid will be pumped that exceeds the formation’s pressure, thus
causing the flow to cease and rendering the well safe at last. It will take at least a couple of months to get this done, bringing all available
technology to bear. It will be an ecological disaster if the well flows all of the while; Optimistically, it could bridge off downhole.

It’s a sad day when something like this happens to any rig, but even more so when it happens to something on the cutting edge of our
capabilities. The photos that follow show the progression of events over the 36 hours from catching fire to sinking.





I'm not sure how to put the pics up and I don't mean to to downplay the tragedy here but the technology is actually kind of fascinating.

^

See!  And peeps be gettin' down on me for being skeptical about the safety of nuke plants.  Oh sure, nothing can go mrongw, uh, wrong. 

^

See!  And peeps be gettin' down on me for being skeptical about the safety of nuke plants.  Oh sure, nothing can go mrongw, uh, wrong. 


Ask the Canadians and French.  They haven't had any Chernobyls.

Ask the Canadians and French.  They haven't had any Chernobyls.


I dunno, though, the way Americans slap sh*t together nowadays.  If we start building nukes again, the illegal immigrants will probably build 'em.
:P

I dunno, though, the way Americans slap sh*t together nowadays.  If we start building nukes again, the illegal immigrants will probably build 'em.
:P


Eh...  well, nuke plants generally are held to much higher standards than your typical building.  If you cut corners, there's the potential for heavy fines and possibly even jail time if criminal negligence is involved.

I dunno, though, the way Americans slap sh*t together nowadays.  If we start building nukes again, the illegal immigrants will probably build 'em.
:P


I know guys who worked on Seabrook.  They can't imagine why it hasn't melted down.  Corners were cut and all kinds of mean nastiness. 

I know guys who worked on Seabrook.  They can't imagine why it hasn't melted down.  Corners were cut and all kinds of mean nastiness.  


Well, admittedly, it is quite possible that America is too cheap and too corrupt to feasibly develop a safe nuclear power infrastructure on a national scale, but that would be rather sad.

Again, Canada and France have shown that it is a great system to have in place if you do it right.

Eh...  well, nuke plants generally are held to much higher standards than your typical building.  If you cut corners, there's the potential for heavy fines and possibly even jail time if criminal negligence is involved.



Nukes cut corners. Entergy is a prime example. They are the owners of Vermont Yankee as well as a few other nuke plants. They have been trying to cut corners. The plant is so old and is falling apart. They are trying to convince everyone that the plant can last another 30 years but it will not.


As with the oil companies, coal companies, & nuke companies-they have been fined for cutting corners. They just pay the fines instead of putting in the safety features. They don't care. The only thing they care about is their bottom line and the hell with their workers, the environment, and anything else.



Cat

Well, again, as above, there is certainly the possibility that America is too corrupt to handle implementing an effective and safe nuclear power infrastructure.  Although honestly, if that really is the case... we'd better convert all of our energy to wind and solar.  When refineries fail, it's a huge mess, and we've already seen what can happen with offshore drilling.

Essentially, if the fear is one of our competency at instituting vital energy installations without them failing, then we've already got a lot of things in place that can be rather disastrous if they fail as well.

Still, I would suggest that the left in America is needlessly fearful of nuclear energy in the same way that they fear guns oftentimes, or how the right fears socialized medicine.

I have a strange feeling that oil prices will skyrocket.

I have a strange feeling that oil prices will skyrocket.


Yeah oil prices will rise, but not really due to this oil platform being taken out of service.  IIRC, I think this was a new platform and had not yet gotten into full production.

Regarding the "containment dome" that they dropped down over the wellhead which is getting clogged up with crystallized methane... oh SHOOT.  This is a big problem, kinda like throwing snowballs down a sink drain and clogging it.  The boys at BP right now are prolly crapping their pants trying to figure out how to handle this problem.  POSSIBLY they could drop a steam line down there to continuously melt the stuff, but that will take a very long, insulated line (which I doubt that they presently have access to) and a steam source.

Adding insult to injury, the crystals are lighter than water and will then to lift the dome off the well.  :o

Welcome to New Orleans!

Hurricanes for dinner, oil slicks for dessert!
::)

I have a strange feeling that oil prices will skyrocket.



Of course they will rise. The oil companies find any reason to rise prices-and it has nothing to do with supply and demand-well, it does have to do with the demand for profits from the oil companies.



Cat

Of course they will rise. The oil companies find any reason to rise prices-and it has nothing to do with supply and demand-well, it does have to do with the demand for profits from the oil companies.



Cat


Well, it has to do with speculators and cartels.  Speculators affect commodities like oil in very destabilizing ways for the pursuit of short term profit.  Of course, the bubble always bursts when people start consuming less oil or when oil sands start becoming cost effective to extract from.  As for the cartel side, most of the world's oil supply is affected by state-owned oil companies like Saudi Aramco.  OPEC doesn't play by the same rules as the open market, because they collude to control supply.  That also drives up prices.  If the oil market was completely private, then supply and demand would be more favorable to the consumer.

Of course they will rise. The oil companies find any reason to rise prices-and it has nothing to do with supply and demand-well, it does have to do with the demand for profits from the oil companies.



Cat


Oil companies are no different than farmers.  If there's a bumper crop, then prices fall because there is too much product on the market.  Not enough product?  Then prices get bid up. (or we see farmers destroying their crops to restrict supply, like was recently done by the strawberry farmers)

If you have an oil well and prople are standing in line to bid up the price of oil, you aren't gonna turn down the extra money.

The big problem going on the past few years are the oil speculators, who bid up oil futures prices.  My opinion, the use of oil derivatives and futures should be restricted to those companies who actually consume (or produce) oil.  The non-physical speculators have thoroughly messed up the oil markets.  And I won;t egt into the detaiuls here, but oil speculators are a big part of what happened in the financial meltdown of 2008.

I want to nationalize the oil companies.  I have zero confidence in the free market.  Sure, the government f**ks stuff up too, but at least we can hold them accountable. 

Look, we've made ourselves utterly dependent on dinosaur soup.  It's like a diabetic deciding his injections by dice roll.  It's dangerous and loopy.

Let the speculators speculate on Dutch tulips or vintage Superman rings.  We gotta get the oil addiction under control, and then learn how to start living with less and less of it because that's what the future holds.  While we're getting accustomed to weaning ourselves off of oil, which will take three generations, we can't afford to have a bunch of half-witted speculators taking the oil market on roller coaster rides. 

Never mind what Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, and Obama tried to do -- give government its good name back -- the U.S. will find a new appreciation for Big Government over the next couple of decades as the true costs of the Reagan-Clinton-Bush era come home to roost. 

The internal combustion engine is 19th century technology.  How many of you use a manual typewriter?  Surely, we can do better than the internal combustion engine.  If we can't, then there will indeed be a market for buggy-whip repair!
::)

Regulating the oil market more is a good thing.  Nationalizing oil is a very bad thing.  Again, just look at how OPEC operates to see the folly in government-run oil companies.

Regulating the oil market more is a good thing.  Nationalizing oil is a very bad thing.  Again, just look at how OPEC operates to see the folly in government-run oil companies.


Those aren't democratic republics.  The CEOs of American oil corporations don't want us to be a democratic republic either.  Some may say they do, but they don't.

Those aren't democratic republics.  The CEOs of American oil corporations don't want us to be a democratic republic either.  Some may say they do, but they don't.



No argument there, but no CEO has the same level of power as the government.

No argument there, but no CEO has the same level of power as the government.


Collectively, they have power OVER government.

Collectively, they have power OVER government.


True, but that requires them to work together -- something much harder in the private sector than when you have governmental alliances that form under things like OPEC.

I can support nationalizing medicine, but doing that to oil would be a very grave mistake.

True, but that requires them to work together -- something much harder in the private sector than when you have governmental alliances that form under things like OPEC.

I can support nationalizing medicine, but doing that to oil would be a very grave mistake.


Sure thing, just ask Mohammed Mossadegh!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/scared.gif

Sure thing, just ask Mohammed Mossadegh!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/scared.gif


Touche...  Sadly, he was a casualty of private oil interests.

If something goes bad -- I mean REALLY bad -- in your nuke plant, the catastrophe would make the BP gusher look like an oil leak in a '79 Dodge Dart!
:o


"You got your nukes in my oil thread!"
"You got your oil in my nuke thread!"

In the spirit of two great tastes that taste great together, how 'bout the Russian plan to nuke the spill shut?  :)

(The serious problem with that plan is that even if the nuke works at that depth, and even if you want to ignore the the risk of making the problem vastly worse than it currently is, you've still gotta drill a big hole into which to place the nuke in the first place, so to make a long story short, if you've got enough time to drill the hole for the nuke, you've also got the time to drill the relief well.  So as much as I like nukes on general principle, even I have to admit that the Russian trial ballloon was pretty crazy... but it was still neat to think about for an afternoon.)

As for nuclear power vs. petrochemicals, when I attain the position of Global Emperor, nuclear power will be used to solve the whole global warming thing, but one relatively-clean nuclear device will be detonated in a suitably-isolated area every 50 years as a reminder to the next generation of (a) how awesome Foomanity's (did I mention I'd rename the species?) engineers are, and (b) as cool as the fireworks are, they're a reminder of What Not To Do, because the last generation to figure it out is dying of old age.  

There'd be relatively little need for petrochemicals outside of the plastics/composities industry, and the planetary anthem would be Atomic Power.

Has anyone else noticed that all those BP ads that use to play all the time as to how wonderful the company is, has disappeared from the airways?



Cat

Has anyone else noticed that all those BP ads that use to play all the time as to how wonderful the company is, has disappeared from the airways?

Cat

Guess they want to save their money instead of paying $$ for advertising. It will be many many months until we really find out all the trouble caused. I'm smelling a coverup already.

Guess they want to save their money instead of paying $$ for advertising. It will be many many months until we really find out all the trouble caused. I'm smelling a coverup already.




Yup-they are saving their pennies because they KNOW this is gonna cost them BIG TIME. Last night Carlos was saying that this could bankrupt them.


The Senate could have upped the amount that they were liable to pay except that Alaska Senator Murkowski.  You know, she is protecting all those Ma & Pop off-shore drilling operations. Carlos & I decided that we are going to open our own off-shore drilling company.  ::)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RP4c_hVncM



Cat

Yup-they are saving their pennies because they KNOW this is gonna cost them BIG TIME. Last night Carlos was saying that this could bankrupt them.


The Senate could have upped the amount that they were liable to pay except that Alaska Senator Murkowski.  You know, she is protecting all those Ma & Pop off-shore drilling operations. Carlos & I decided that we are going to open our own off-shore drilling company.  ::)



Send in Officer Obie!


Obie, did you think I was gonna hang myself for oil-spilling?
Shut up, kid!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/rudolf.gif

Yup-they are saving their pennies because they KNOW this is gonna cost them BIG TIME. Last night Carlos was saying that this could bankrupt them.


Cat

It could bankrupt them. That's within the realm of possibility.
So what will BP do, ask the American govm'nt for a loan to keep them afloat? Is that actually possible?

It could bankrupt them. That's within the realm of possibility.
So what will BP do, ask the American govm'nt for a loan to keep them afloat? Is that actually possible?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill

For the Exxon Valedez disaster, Exxon-Mobil paid the equivalent of a parking ticket to you and me.

Anything's possible in the magical world of corruption!

Anyway, it was an accident, man!  The skipper was drunk.  The control board battery was dead.  What'dya want?  We're just a multibillion-dollar international oil cartel!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/smokin.gif

Yup-they are saving their pennies because they KNOW this is gonna cost them BIG TIME. Last night Carlos was saying that this could bankrupt them.


The Senate could have upped the amount that they were liable to pay except that Alaska Senator Murkowski.  You know, she is protecting all those Ma & Pop off-shore drilling operations. Carlos & I decided that we are going to open our own off-shore drilling company.  ::)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RP4c_hVncM

uhhh...  ****ing Alaska.  Look, can we either just shoot her in the head, or give Alaska independence?  I swear that state is the ****ing dumbass on the short bus everytime an important issue comes up.  First, Sarah Palin, then this benefactor of nepotism (appointed by her father) appears to **** things up.

uhhh...   ****ing Alaska.  Look, can we either just shoot her in the head, or give Alaska independence?  I swear that state is the ****ing dumbass on the short bus everytime an important issue comes up.  First, Sarah Palin, then this benefactor of nepotism (appointed by her father) appears to **** things up.





Oh come on, Macphisto. Tell us how you REALLY feel about Alaska.



Cat

Oh come on, Macphisto. Tell us how you REALLY feel about Alaska.



Cat


lol..  Seriously though, if it weren't for the oil, they'd be entirely useless to the rest of the country.

lol..  Seriously though, if it weren't for the oil, they'd be entirely useless to the rest of the country.


Without oil subsidies, the indigenous peoples would be the only ones who could stand living up there because they're the only ones who can cut it in that climate.

Without oil subsidies, the indigenous peoples would be the only ones who could stand living up there because they're the only ones who can cut it in that climate.


Well, that and the only jobs there outside of oil are mostly fishing and tourism.

Without oil, very few people would live there today other than the indigenous people.  Oil and gold were the only reasons white people moved there in the first place.

Well, that and the only jobs there outside of oil are mostly fishing and tourism.

Without oil, very few people would live there today other than the indigenous people.  Oil and gold were the only reasons white people moved there in the first place.



Well, they can see Russia from their house.



Cat

Well, they can see Russia from their house.



Cat


lol...  that too

Send in Officer Obie!


Do not tempt me to do a full-blown Alice's Restaurant parody.

In lieu of that, and because I'm too lazy (and insufficiently inebriated) to attempt it, I offer this story instead.

A political cartoon almost made me cry when I saw it this morning.


http://media.timesfreepress.com/img/news/tease/2010/05/24/100525_The_Surrender.jpg



Cat

A political cartoon almost made me cry when I saw it this morning.


http://media.timesfreepress.com/img/news/tease/2010/05/24/100525_The_Surrender.jpg



Cat

With the gulf stream pushing it even (possibly) as far as Canada ( Nova Scotia), it will cause more damage than we're even aware of. One of the greatest ecological disaster ever?

A political cartoon almost made me cry when I saw it this morning.


http://media.timesfreepress.com/img/news/tease/2010/05/24/100525_The_Surrender.jpg



Cat

Your post reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ozVMxzNAA

Your post reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ozVMxzNAA


Very appropriate

And now they are saying that with the hurricane season coming soon, lots of oil will be washed up on shore. :\'(

And now they are saying that with the hurricane season coming soon, lots of oil will be washed up on shore. :\'(



I was thinking about that last night. It just makes me SOOOOOO ANGRY!!!!!!  >:( >:( >:(  I truly hope this is a wake up call and we (as in the WORLD) will move away from fossil fuels and go green.



Cat

I was thinking about that last night. It just makes me SOOOOOO ANGRY!!!!!!  >:( >:( >:(  I truly hope this is a wake up call and we (as in the WORLD) will move away from fossil fuels and go green.

Cat

Sometimes progress is made (in this case, going more green) and only after disasters occur . But if there still will be lots of $$ made in offshore drilling, it's will be a long and hard fight.

Sometimes progress is made (in this case, going more green) and only after disasters occur . But if there still will be lots of $$ made in offshore drilling, it's will be a long and hard fight.



The thing is, there is lots of $$$$ to be made in green energy. Solar panels have to be made. They have to be installed. Wind turbines also have to be made & installed. Not to mention maintaining all of it.

The only ones who get hurt in the pocketbook by going green are the oil companies. They get paid by the U.S. government for extracting the oil and then they get paid by you & I at the pump and whenever we want to heat our houses. Yes, we have oil heating. I hate it. A few years ago, we needed a new furnace. I SO wanted to go green but there really wasn't anything to replace it with. I hope the next time we need a new furnace, there will be.



Cat 

The thing is, there is lots of $$$$ to be made in green energy. Solar panels have to be made. They have to be installed. Wind turbines also have to be made & installed. Not to mention maintaining all of it.

Cat 


Photovoltaic solar panels are hopelessly expensive.  In a really sunny environment, the wholesale cost of solar photovoltaic power is $0.40 per kilowatt-hour.  8-P  That is as compared to retail cost of conventionally-generated power of about $0.08.

Solar panels that heat water for homes are very nice and are also economical.

Wind turbines are also to the point now where they are economical.  Putting up 1000 megawatts of wind tower capacity now costs somewhat less than building a 1000-MW nuclear plant.

Wind power is really taking off.  Last year 4,995 industrial-sixed wind turbines were constructed, and this year the projection is north of 6,000.  :)

Photovoltaic solar panels are hopelessly expensive.  In a really sunny environment, the wholesale cost of solar photovoltaic power is $0.40 per kilowatt-hour.   8-P   That is as compared to retail cost of conventionally-generated power of about $0.08.

Solar panels that heat water for homes are very nice and are also economical.

Wind turbines are also to the point now where they are economical.  Putting up 1000 megawatts of wind tower capacity now costs somewhat less than building a 1000-MW nuclear plant.

Wind power is really taking off.  Last year 4,995 industrial-sixed wind turbines were constructed, and this year the projection is north of 6,000.  :)



The prices of green energy are coming down. In a few years, they should be affordable for everyone.



Cat

A political cartoon almost made me cry when I saw it this morning.


http://www.robertamsterdam.com/BP_art.jpg

Pardon me, anyone wanna test the new blowout preventer?

http://www.robertamsterdam.com/BP_art.jpg

Pardon me, anyone wanna test the new blowout preventer?



That says it all! Karma.



Cat

Photovoltaic solar panels are hopelessly expensive.  In a really sunny environment, the wholesale cost of solar photovoltaic power is $0.40 per kilowatt-hour.  8-P  That is as compared to retail cost of conventionally-generated power of about $0.08.

Solar panels that heat water for homes are very nice and are also economical.

Wind turbines are also to the point now where they are economical.  Putting up 1000 megawatts of wind tower capacity now costs somewhat less than building a 1000-MW nuclear plant.

Wind power is really taking off.  Last year 4,995 industrial-sixed wind turbines were constructed, and this year the projection is north of 6,000.  :)

Wind power I think is the wave of the future.

Photovoltaic solar panels are hopelessly expensive.  In a really sunny environment, the wholesale cost of solar photovoltaic power is $0.40 per kilowatt-hour.   8-P   That is as compared to retail cost of conventionally-generated power of about $0.08.

Solar panels that heat water for homes are very nice and are also economical.

Wind turbines are also to the point now where they are economical.  Putting up 1000 megawatts of wind tower capacity now costs somewhat less than building a 1000-MW nuclear plant.

Wind power is really taking off.  Last year 4,995 industrial-sixed wind turbines were constructed, and this year the projection is north of 6,000.  :)
I've been seeing lots and lots of wind turbine blades being trucked through the Midwest lately.

There is a huge to do going on in Massachusetts.  They are pretty much set to put wind turbines in Nantucket Sound.  That is pretty much the summer place for the rich and shameless and they have their panties in a wad about it.  My thinking is, you have been closing your private beaches off to the public for decades and now the public doesn't care about you losing your view.  You have lived your life on high on the NIMBY scale, but the tide has turned.

There is a huge to do going on in Massachusetts.  They are pretty much set to put wind turbines in Nantucket Sound.  That is pretty much the summer place for the rich and shameless and they have their panties in a wad about it.  My thinking is, you have been closing your private beaches off to the public for decades and now the public doesn't care about you losing your view.  You have lived your life on high on the NIMBY scale, but the tide has turned.


And tidal power could should be the next big source of electricity.  The concept is simple and has been around for decades.

That says it all! Karma.


http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/891/sharkk.jpg

Bad enough they killed the dolphin in that awesome editorial cartoon you posted, but now that they've killed the Singing Shark, oh, it's on now...

There is a huge to do going on in Massachusetts.  They are pretty much set to put wind turbines in Nantucket Sound.  That is pretty much the summer place for the rich and shameless and they have their panties in a wad about it.  My thinking is, you have been closing your private beaches off to the public for decades and now the public doesn't care about you losing your view.  You have lived your life on high on the NIMBY scale, but the tide has turned.


But RAHHLY they're a moooost dreadful sight, dahling! We CONT summer under such privations!  Did you see the abominable things?  Here take the binoculars...
::)

But RAHHLY they're a moooost dreadful sight, dahling! We CONT summer under such privations!  Did you see the abominable things?  Here take the binoculars...
::)


Damn Kennedys anyway.  :D

The pictures BP doesn't want you to see (they've been blocking beach access to photographers)

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/06/caught_in_the_oil.html

The pictures BP doesn't want you to see (they've been blocking beach access to photographers)

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/06/caught_in_the_oil.html


You know what?  It's about time everybody says f**k what BP wants!
::)

The pictures BP doesn't want you to see (they've been blocking beach access to photographers)


This pelican was sick and tired of BP's poop several years ago, but we didn't listen.  

I don't care about the fact that BP's been doing its best to solve the problem.  What I want is to give Scoop 15 minutes alone in a room with BP's CEO.

And Scoop, if you're out there?  

"F*bleep*K what BP wants!"

The pictures BP doesn't want you to see (they've been blocking beach access to photographers)

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/06/caught_in_the_oil.html


I was looking at those pictures last night on Yahoo and sobbing.  Yeah yeah, deep down (usually buried where no one can touch it) I'm really softhearted.

I pass a BP gas station on my daily walk, and the temptation to let my dog go crap all over their property is overwhelming.

By the way, has anyone been following the stories that have been coming out about the fisherman who have been getting sick from the chemicals and fumes?  Apparently BP has been trying to keep a tight lid on THOSE accounts, but some have been leaking out.

*edited to add*
And yes, the (bad) puns were intended in the last sentence. :P

I was looking at those pictures last night on Yahoo and sobbing.  Yeah yeah, deep down (usually buried where no one can touch it) I'm really softhearted.




I saw those photos on the news last night and started crying. I blamed it on hormones (like I have been blaming everything on lately) but Carlos said, that it has nothing to do with hormones. Those photos are enough to make ANYONE cry.



Cat

Alaska Rep. Don Young on the Gulf oil spill:

“This is not an environmental disaster, and I will say that again and again because it is a natural phenomenon. Oil has seeped into this ocean for centuries, will continue to do it. During World War II there was over 10 million barrels of oil spilt from ships, and no natural catastrophe. … We will lose some birds, we will lose some fixed sealife, but overall it will recover.�

www.foolocracy.com/2010/06/congressman-young-oil-spill-a-natural-phenomenon/

Alaska Rep. Don Young on the Gulf oil spill:

“This is not an environmental disaster, and I will say that again and again because it is a natural phenomenon. Oil has seeped into this ocean for centuries, will continue to do it. During World War II there was over 10 million barrels of oil spilt from ships, and no natural catastrophe. … We will lose some birds, we will lose some fixed sealife, but overall it will recover.�

www.foolocracy.com/2010/06/congressman-young-oil-spill-a-natural-phenomenon/

He said that? Idiot.
They should make him clean this environmental disaster natural phenomenon ..with his tongue.

I pass a BP gas station on my daily walk, and the temptation to let my dog go crap all over their property is overwhelming.


I believe that most BP stations are independent dealers, meaning you just affect the guy who happened to pick the wrong brand of gas to sell.

the real change that is needed, is to REQUIRE all new offshore drill sites to have a second relief well drilled alongside the main well.  Canada already does this, and in the end it's the only thing that will fix the current disaster.

Even James Cameron is not happy!

http://www.movieline.com/2010/06/james-camerons-offer-to-help-fix-oil-leak-denied.php

I believe that most BP stations are independent dealers, meaning you just affect the guy who happened to pick the wrong brand of gas to sell.

the real change that is needed, is to REQUIRE all new offshore drill sites to have a second relief well drilled alongside the main well.  Canada already does this, and in the end it's the only thing that will fix the current disaster.



REAL change would be moving away from fossil fuels and going to cleaner, greener energy.



Cat

I saw those photos on the news last night and started crying. I blamed it on hormones (like I have been blaming everything on lately) but Carlos said, that it has nothing to do with hormones. Those photos are enough to make ANYONE cry.



Cat


They are.  I want to go buy a crate of Dawn and hop a train down to the Gulf Coast to help out.


Alaska Rep. Don Young on the Gulf oil spill:

“This is not an environmental disaster, and I will say that again and again because it is a natural phenomenon. Oil has seeped into this ocean for centuries, will continue to do it. During World War II there was over 10 million barrels of oil spilt from ships, and no natural catastrophe. … We will lose some birds, we will lose some fixed sealife, but overall it will recover.�

www.foolocracy.com/2010/06/congressman-young-oil-spill-a-natural-phenomenon/


http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/Nerdprincess1980/Funny/Motivational%20Posters/l_89059636246c297dc9c99043c318b7dc.jpg


I believe that most BP stations are independent dealers, meaning you just affect the guy who happened to pick the wrong brand of gas to sell.


Yeah, I have to remind myself of that fact, even when I feel like lobbing rotten eggs at any BP logo I see.  I know it doesn't solve anything, but man, sometimes I just have to feel VICIOUS. :P

They are.  I want to go buy a crate of Dawn and hop a train down to the Gulf Coast to help out.




The thought has crossed my mind, too. Dawn is one of those products that I HAVE to use. Carlos used to buy the cheapo stuff but I convinced him that it is Dawn all the way. The last bottle I bought had a seal on the label and said that they will be donating $1 to marine clean up-this was BEFORE this catastrophe. Now, I want to buy up all the Dawn so they will donate more.



Cat

Who's gonna scrub down all those alligators?
:o

Who's gonna scrub down all those alligators?
:o


We'll let the BP executives handle that.

We'll let the BP executives handle that.


I like your thinking, Jess!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/thumbsup.gif

The thought has crossed my mind, too. Dawn is one of those products that I HAVE to use. Carlos used to buy the cheapo stuff but I convinced him that it is Dawn all the way. The last bottle I bought had a seal on the label and said that they will be donating $1 to marine clean up-this was BEFORE this catastrophe. Now, I want to buy up all the Dawn so they will donate more.

Cat


Maybe they could inject Dawn at the wellhead to immediately disperse all that grease...

Maybe they could inject Dawn at the wellhead to immediately disperse all that grease...


Softens hands while you do dishes!

Oh, the irony.  :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rklKyFMUME

This just TOTALLY P!sses me off.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/06/bp-turns-to-political-shop-for-50-million-ad-buy-to-convince-you-the-company-will-get-this-done-and-.html

50 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!! They really should be putting that $50 million toward clean up instead of an ad campaign saying, "We are good guys."  ::) ::)  Good guys, my ass! They are destroying this planet!  >:( >:( >:(



Cat

This just TOTALLY P!sses me off.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/06/bp-turns-to-political-shop-for-50-million-ad-buy-to-convince-you-the-company-will-get-this-done-and-.html

50 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!! They really should be putting that $50 million toward clean up instead of an ad campaign saying, "We are good guys."  ::) ::)  Good guys, my ass! They are destroying this planet!   >:( >:( >:(


The planet'll be fine.  If you like shrimp, you might be boned, but the planet'll be just fine.

Well, as long as we're talking about small volumes of things in large volumes of things, compared to the billions they've already spent and/or are committed to spending, $50M on PR is quite literally a drop in the bucket.  And against the drop in market cap (around $37B by this estimate, an extra 0.05B spent on PR, if it can convince just one hedge fund manager not to dump his holdings on Monday morning, would probably protect more than $0.05B in market cap.)

At the moment, unlike the top kill (which was well worth trying, but was abandoned after they encountered plenty of problems, including leakage around the site when pressures were increased, indicating that the well bore itself is pretty much shot to hell) the LMRP actually appears to be working.  Jury will be out for another day or so as to how much of the crap they'll be able to capture, but this is probably the first really good news we've had since this clusterfark began.  (Side note: The Oil Drum is probably the best place on the 'net for serious technical discussion of what's going on down there.)

At $37, BP's either the investment deal of the decade, or a ticking time bomb, and the fun part is, nobody from the Gulf to Wall Street has the foggiest idea of how it plays out in the courts.  Nor, for that matter, the fates of other deepwater drillers and/or their equipment providers (ironically, providers of the equipment used to prevent this sort of thing from happening.  Hmm, did they ship a crappy blowout prevention system, or was it BP's fault for not operating the equipment correctly?  There's another $600M question that's still up for grabs.)  

http://i.imgur.com/Wo552.jpg

Serious technical stuff aside, given the ineptness of BP's PR department during this whole debacle, I'm not sure if that's just a parody, or if someone got their hands on some sort of upcoming joint venture with the Florida tourism commission.

You know all those rich old people who vacation on the Gulf coast?  A lot of 'em invest in oil companies.  If their condos decrease in value by half because there's the petroleum crude all of the place, how happy will the investors in BP be?  The top five most profitable corporations are oil corporations, and BP is number 5.  It's a cut-throat business.  BP gambled, and BP lost.  We lost too.  We said the government would not require them to install safety valves which are wicked expensive.  Maybe it'll be Exxon again next time. 
::)

The problem, Foo Bar, is that while the wind direction drives the surface waves to the north north west, the Gulf loop drives the water through the Florida straight and then up the east coast of the US, and eventually past Iceland and on to Ireland.  That's why oil has already reached the west coast of Florida.  And once in the Atlantic, wave action will bring it ashore.  This ain't going to be pretty

The problem, Foo Bar, is that while the wind direction drives the surface waves to the north north west, the Gulf loop drives the water through the Florida straight and then up the east coast of the US, and eventually past Iceland and on to Ireland.  That's why oil has already reached the west coast of Florida.  And once in the Atlantic, wave action will bring it ashore.  This ain't going to be pretty


No it ain't, but so far, not much of it is in a position to make it to the Atlantic.  The outcome all rides on how much the LMRP can capture.

And while we're on the subject, so far we've been lucky with what's in the marshes, but all bets are off when the hurricanes come.  There's no consensus on the extent (if any) to which the surface oil will (by inhibiting evaporation of water) increase the heat-carrying capacity of the Gulf.  What's left of the coast is going to be an unholy mess after any storm surge, and the possibility of an extra few inches makes it just that much worse.

(FWIW, I don't own any BP.  Not for any moral reasons, but because any trade would be pure gambling at this point.  There's no edge, and nobody has the vaguest idea of what the cleanup'll actually cost.)

(FWIW, I don't own any BP.  Not for any moral reasons, but because any trade would be pure gambling at this point.  There's no edge, and nobody has the vaguest idea of what the cleanup'll actually cost.)


And while we're on the subject, with BP off another 16% today as the US government threatens more penalties (if it can be proven they were negligent, the liability estimates ignore the $75M cap and get into the $40B range), I'm damn glad I didn't buy any.  Maybe PetroChina, in a supreme moment of irony, buys 'em out.

Maybe the Photoshop of the BP logo and the captured Viet Cong colonel was more accurate than I'd known :)

A recent AP analysis of BP's regional response plans, and the cite specific ones turned out to be pure poetry.  They made the stuff up as they went along, and Bush's feds let them get away with it.

I think we've only peeled the first skin of the onion on this one. 

They don't know how to stop the plumes of oil.  They're not admitting it, but they don't know how to stop it.  August 15 will come and go and that crude will still be gushing. 

When BP stocks REALLY begin to tank, there will be a lot of pissed off British pensioners and investors seeing their dividends drop and not being able to pay their own expenses.

Meanwhile, back on the Gulf Coast, the tourism industry will be so demolished, it'll crush the fragile economy of the coasts of those poor southern states.  There's not much going on for jobs in those areas apart from tourism-related businesses.  There is such a thing as disaster tourism, but it's not nearly so popular.

The first lump of turd has only just ricocheted off the first blade of the fan!
:o

I think we've only peeled the first skin of the onion on this one. 

:o

Sadly, you are correct.

And now the Louisiana leg. wants the moratorium on drilling lifted.  WTF?

And now the Louisiana leg. wants the moratorium on drilling lifted.   WTF?


Why not?  How much worse can it get?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/sad5.gif

And now the Louisiana leg. wants the moratorium on drilling lifted.   WTF?


Well, it's not like there's going to be any fishing industry there for the next 3-5 years...

Obligatory BP lulz: Yep, even the retail investing community is getting into it with a logo contest.

Well, it's not like there's going to be any fishing industry there for the next 3-5 years...

Obligatory BP lulz: Yep, even the retail investing community is getting into it with a logo contest.


I go for the dead fish floating in the oil slick superimposed on that glazed pelican!
8-P

That is...for the new BP logo!

I go for the dead fish floating in the oil slick superimposed on that glazed pelican!
8-P

That is...for the new BP logo!

This is close.
BP : Bird petroleum
http://www.greenexpander.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/00c1ftdr.jpg

This is close.
BP : Bird petroleum
http://www.greenexpander.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/00c1ftdr.jpg


^ He says, "I want my old life back!"
:(

^ He says, "I want my old life back!" :(


So. Much. Win.

Dude, you've gotta grab that pelican, paste it into ROFLBot or your favorite image macro generator, host it somewhere, and submit it to LolBP.com.

Meanwhile, back at the World Cup...

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5941/spill.jpg

...if there's one thing the British are known for, it's consistency.

Well, it's not like there's going to be any fishing industry there for the next 3-5 years...


Good point...  the sad thing is...  maybe they might as well drill more in the Gulf now.  By the time they actually fix this leak, most of the life will be dead in that area, so why not?

Good point...  the sad thing is...  maybe they might as well drill more in the Gulf now.  By the time they actually fix this leak, most of the life will be dead in that area, so why not?


That is a good point, sad but true.

Good point...  the sad thing is...  maybe they might as well drill more in the Gulf now.  By the time they actually fix this leak, most of the life will be dead in that area, so why not?



How much of this sh*t are we going to fire up into our atmosphere before we're forced to live meager lives of self-sufficiency some day because we really did burn through it all?  They melted the glaciers and tore asunder the mantle of the sea floor to get at this stuff.  It's gonna run out.  The way we lived in the second half of the 20th century will be remembered as a time of unparalleled indulgence, convenience, and lassitude.  It will be haled as a golden age existing in legend.  Whatever we have now will only be marginally useful in 500 years.  One assumed it would be because our advancements would be so great.  It might be that we have had to revert back to the way we survived in the 13th century A.D.  That is, surviving season-to-season under a brutal warrior-chieftain. 

Let's maybe stop assuming human society is going to look the same in fifty years.  People will be fighting over resources then as now and now as then be they oil...or food and water.
::) 

How much of this sh*t are we going to fire up into our atmosphere before we're forced to live meager lives of self-sufficiency some day because we really did burn through it all?  They melted the glaciers and tore asunder the mantle of the sea floor to get at this stuff.  It's gonna run out.  The way we lived in the second half of the 20th century will be remembered as a time of unparalleled indulgence, convenience, and lassitude.  It will be haled as a golden age existing in legend.  Whatever we have now will only be marginally useful in 500 years.  One assumed it would be because our advancements would be so great.  It might be that we have had to revert back to the way we survived in the 13th century A.D.  That is, surviving season-to-season under a brutal warrior-chieftain. 

Let's maybe stop assuming human society is going to look the same in fifty years.  People will be fighting over resources then as now and now as then be they oil...or food and water.
::) 

Karma...

Karma...


Valium helps.
:D

Valium helps.
:D

I'm looking for the valium button to click on and add to your total, but can't find it. Will ask Tam to put one in  :D

Closest thing I can do:  Enjoy. Looks like there's an endless supply of this, and it's spilling over...oops.


http://tami.asia/images/o_Valium_10mg_(2).JPG

I'm looking for the valium button to click on and add to your total, but can't find it. Will ask Tam to put one in  :D

Closest thing I can do:  Enjoy. Looks like there's an endless supply of this, and it's spilling over...oops.


http://tami.asia/images/o_Valium_10mg_(2).JPG


That is not a serving suggestion, young man!
>:(

That is not a serving suggestion, young man!
>:(


This is your Gulf on antidepressants:

http://i47.tinypic.com/1hwkkg.jpg

This is your Gulf in reality:

http://naturalselectionpc.com/farkfiles/original.jpg

Any questions?

This is your Gulf on antidepressants:

http://i47.tinypic.com/1hwkkg.jpg

This is your Gulf in reality:

http://naturalselectionpc.com/farkfiles/original.jpg

Any questions?

Good one.

Questions?  yes..
The problem is that we're not getting any straight answers from the powers that be (pee)

The problem is that we're not getting any straight answers from the powers that be (pee)


The sad part, actually, is that we are getting pretty straight answers to everything that actually matters.

1) BP probably screwed up, but they dare not admit it in public.
2) The government has lost political face on this, too, but not as much as BP.
3) It doesn't matter how much the government spends on the cleanup, the only remaining solution is the drilling of the relief wills.
4) It doesn't matter how much BP spends, the relief wills are going to take until July/August to be completed.
5) It doesn't matter how much the government threatens BP, or now much BP spends, the outcome is going to be the same: 3-5 years of poor harvests for fishermen, and 5-10 years for the marshes to recover.  The only thing that can change those numbers is the timing, duration, and path of hurricanes.

The problem is that we don't like those answers.  BP looks like it doesn't care when it tells the truth.  The government looks impotent when it admits there's not a damn thing it can do either.  So the government pretends to look tough ("$20B!") and BP pretends to be apologetic ("OK, here's $20B"), and the kabuki dance gets played until the relief wells are completed.

The sad part, actually, is that we are getting pretty straight answers to everything that actually matters.

1) BP probably screwed up, but they dare not admit it in public.
2) The government has lost political face on this, too, but not as much as BP.
3) It doesn't matter how much the government spends on the cleanup, the only remaining solution is the drilling of the relief wills.
4) It doesn't matter how much BP spends, the relief wills are going to take until July/August to be completed.
5) It doesn't matter how much the government threatens BP, or now much BP spends, the outcome is going to be the same: 3-5 years of poor harvests for fishermen, and 5-10 years for the marshes to recover.  The only thing that can change those numbers is the timing, duration, and path of hurricanes.



I agree, but I think the years for recovery might be ten times the ones you cited.
::)

I agree, but I think the years for recovery might be ten times the ones you cited.
::)

It could be, but right now we just don't know, no one does.  Tourism, fishing, nature destroyed, how far will part of the spill go ( all the way up the east coast , to Canada, and then towards northern Europe. )
What's the price of fish gonna be this fall/winter? How many beaches will be harmed and how long for the cleanup? How many hurricanes will bring even more of that crap on shore? We could ask so many more questions. We are still at the tip of a huge iceberg.

The sad part, actually, is that we are getting pretty straight answers to everything that actually matters.

1) BP probably screwed up, but they dare not admit it in public.
2) The government has lost political face on this, too, but not as much as BP.
3) It doesn't matter how much the government spends on the cleanup, the only remaining solution is the drilling of the relief wills.
4) It doesn't matter how much BP spends, the relief wills are going to take until July/August to be completed.
5) It doesn't matter how much the government threatens BP, or now much BP spends, the outcome is going to be the same: 3-5 years of poor harvests for fishermen, and 5-10 years for the marshes to recover.  The only thing that can change those numbers is the timing, duration, and path of hurricanes.

The problem is that we don't like those answers.  BP looks like it doesn't care when it tells the truth.  The government looks impotent when it admits there's not a damn thing it can do either.  So the government pretends to look tough ("$20B!") and BP pretends to be apologetic ("OK, here's $20B"), and the kabuki dance gets played until the relief wells are completed.



What do you mean, "Probably"? BP screwed up-no probably about it! Everything else I agree with you on.



Cat

What do you mean, "Probably"? BP screwed up-no probably about it! Everything else I agree with you on.


I mean "probably" in the same way that the media means "alleged".  The number of times in which BP overrode their (and RIG's, and HAL's) engineers' concerns is pretty self-evident, but whether it's criminal or not is for the courts to decide.  They're certainly morally culpable.  But I've got moral principles I'd compromise for a lot less than $20B.

(Yes, Mr. Churchill, we are haggling over price.)

That's what this spill, cleanup, and what-not is all ultimately about.  If, for example, there's $100B in damages, BP saves $80B by coughing up the cabbage early.  But if that $100B in damages takes 20 years to collect via the courts, then the Administration also gains during the midterm elections by saying "We got y'all $20B now, rather than gambling on getting $100B after half of you have died of old age before the case made it through the courts..."

http://www.conversationmarketing.com/disasters/ostrich-head.jpg

The British are getting peeved about it now.  I quote our Founding Fathers:  Bring it on!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/pfiade.gif

http://imgur.com/8EWwJ.jpg


FTFY.

Who cares, it's done, end of story, will probably be fine.

No, really.  That's what the email from the BP guy actually said.  (You think I could just make this stuff up?)

FTFY.

Who cares, it's done, end of story, will probably be fine.

No, really.  That's what the email from the BP guy actually said.  (You think I could just make this stuff up?)


She's not fine, Clarke!  She's dead!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_rendeer.gif

She's not fine, Clarke!  She's dead!


Not dead, just resting.

Not dead, just resting.

;D
Beautiful plumage.

So now Tony Hayward is "off the case" after his public relations disaster.  Big Woop

So now Tony Hayward is "off the case" after his public relations disaster.  Big Woop


More like

"Toff the case"

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nono.gif

And in the mean time, guess what the head of BP is doing?

>:(    ::)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/06/20/bp-boss-tony-hayward-spotted-on-yacht-at-isle-of-wight-race-115875-22346101/

And in the mean time, guess what the head of BP is doing?


I found this a couple of weeks ago and never got around to using it, but there's no time better than this to use it:

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9531/888884039umvwal.jpg

Because today, in a note of beautiful synchronicity, we've discovered that the man's yacht is named "Bob". 

As much as I want to, I just can't fault a man - however pink he may be - who just said "GIVE ME SLACK OR KILL ME" to the entire planet. 

Of course, I also wouldn't fault a Cajun fisherman who reminds him that "OR" doesn't mean "exclusive-OR"... Hey, I'm flexible that way :)

I found this a couple of weeks ago and never got around to using it, but there's no time better than this to use it:


Because today, in a note of beautiful synchronicity, we've discovered that the man's yacht is named "Bob".  

As much as I want to, I just can't fault a man - however pink he may be - who just said "GIVE ME SLACK OR KILL ME" to the entire planet.  

Of course, I also wouldn't fault a Cajun fisherman who reminds him that "OR" doesn't mean "exclusive-OR"... Hey, I'm flexible that way :)


Wot? "Bob" like the evil spirit on "Twin Peaks."  
He went to a yacht race?  What a public relations-minded guy!  I want him on his knees saying the rosary while some big Creole fishermen watch him!  He would definitely win Monty Python's "Twit of the Year" contest.  
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/jerk.gif

So, is that like B.O.B.?  :D ;D ;D ;D




Cat

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/06/what-happens-when-bp-spills-coffee-video-funny-ucbcomedy.php

Just wondering what everyone's take is on Kevin Costner's centrifuge devices. Think this is worth getting our hopes up for?

http://earth2tech.com/2010/06/14/can-kevin-costners-centrifuges-help-clean-up-the-gulf/

http://www.ots.org/

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/06/what-happens-when-bp-spills-coffee-video-funny-ucbcomedy.php




Hilarious!!  The Costner link didn't work.

Just wondering what everyone's take is on Kevin Costner's centrifuge devices. Think this is worth getting our hopes up for?

http://earth2tech.com/2010/06/14/can-kevin-costners-centrifuges-help-clean-up-the-gulf/

http://www.ots.org/



It seems to have more merit than anything BP has come up with.



Cat

It's getting extremely hot down there this time of year.  That oil is just starting to evaporate like crazy, which fills the air of noxious vapors.  Stinks.  Makes you dizzy.
8-P

It's getting extremely hot down there this time of year.  That oil is just starting to evaporate like crazy, which fills the air of noxious vapors.  Stinks.  Makes you dizzy.
8-P


And BP is refusing to allow clean-up workers to wear respirators!???  Nice guys.

And BP is refusing to allow clean-up workers to wear respirators!???  Nice guys.


Yeah -- nice, guys.  Nice way to set yourselves up for lawsuits up to the seventh circle of hell 'coz you knowingly and willingly coerced employees to expose themselves to dangerous chemicals!
>:(

Yeah -- nice, guys.  Nice way to set yourselves up for lawsuits up to the seventh circle of hell 'coz you knowingly and willingly coerced employees to expose themselves to dangerous chemicals!
>:(


You're not thinking like a lawyer.

Not giving them respirators is evidence (however circumstancial) that BP didn't think it was dangerous.  Giving the workers respirators would be positive proof that they knew the scene was hazardous, and let them go in anyways, even though the respirators were clearly ("after all, my client came down with cancer in 2016, or we wouldn't be here, Your Honor!") inadequate protection in an environment that BP obviously knew was hazardous.  

http://www.pbase.com/nero_design/image/29063863/original.jpg

Man, I've typed a lot of filthy things on the Internet, but nothing quite as bad as that last paragraph.  

But that's how it really works if you're into risk assessment.  Doesn't matter whether you're the shocked but still-conscious victim pulling the drunk driver out of the wreckage of his car, or the drunk stumbling over to the flaming wreckage of the minivan full of kids on their way to sunday school.  BP giving out respirators would be akin to saying "I'm sorry, dude" at the scene of a car accident.  There are some things you just don't do.

You're not thinking like a lawyer.

Not giving them respirators is evidence (however circumstancial) that BP didn't think it was dangerous.  Giving the workers respirators would be positive proof that they knew the scene was hazardous, and let them go in anyways, even though the respirators were clearly ("after all, my client came down with cancer in 2016, or we wouldn't be here, Your Honor!") inadequate protection in an environment that BP obviously knew was hazardous.  

.


From the other side, we all know that petrol fumes ARE dangerous, there are warnings posted at self serve gas stations,  so giving out respirators would be a cover, ie "yes, we knew it was dangerous and did all we could to protect those directly exposed your honor."

You're not thinking like a lawyer.

Not giving them respirators is evidence (however circumstancial) that BP didn't think it was dangerous.  Giving the workers respirators would be positive proof that they knew the scene was hazardous, and let them go in anyways, even though the respirators were clearly ("after all, my client came down with cancer in 2016, or we wouldn't be here, Your Honor!") inadequate protection in an environment that BP obviously knew was hazardous.  

Man, I've typed a lot of filthy things on the Internet, but nothing quite as bad as that last paragraph.  

But that's how it really works if you're into risk assessment.  Doesn't matter whether you're the shocked but still-conscious victim pulling the drunk driver out of the wreckage of his car, or the drunk stumbling over to the flaming wreckage of the minivan full of kids on their way to sunday school.  BP giving out respirators would be akin to saying "I'm sorry, dude" at the scene of a car accident.  There are some things you just don't do.


You mean to tell me British Petroleum didn't know the effects of exposure to crude oil in human beings?

Yes, your honor.

All right then, you guys can just go.  Now, don't do it again!
:D

If the plaintiffs could produce memos from BP stating the policy against hazmat gear on clean-up detail, it wouldn't exactly "prove" BP knew it was dangerous to work out there, but it begs the question why.  Ever gotten that heady, dizzy feeling from breathing in gasoline fumes (unintentionally, I hope)?  The crude stuff is far more caustic.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ldo5e.jpg

With the new cap on, the release into the gulf should be slowed to a comparative trickle, at least until the relief wells (within 200 feet of the destination, which is when it gets slow and tricky, but at least it's almost there) finish their job over the next couple of weeks.

So I'm using it while I've got it.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ldo5e.jpg

With the new cap on, the release into the gulf should be slowed to a comparative trickle, at least until the relief wells (within 200 feet of the destination, which is when it gets slow and tricky, but at least it's almost there) finish their job over the next couple of weeks.

So I'm using it while I've got it.

I like the photo..Made be laugh!
Karma.

So supposedly the new cap is working and the gusher has stopped, at least for now.  So I guess deep water drilling is now safe again?  Yeah, right

and after 88 days...
PLUG.

http://www.geekologie.com/2009/07/20/transformer-fan.JPG
- Hey Jim, whatcha doin'?
- Well Bob, I'm trying to guzzle gas, so that I have an idea what millions of fish and sea life feel like in the gulf of Mexico.
-But Jim, didn't ya hear, the brilliant minds were at work, they plugged the leak after only 88 days! Problem over!
-Really Bob?
-Sure! BP will fall out of the news now and life is back to normal again. We worried for nothing
-Great stuff!

..meanwhile..

http://www.phongpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/oil-spill-gulf-mexico.jpg

and after 88 days...
PLUG.

http://www.geekologie.com/2009/07/20/transformer-fan.JPG
- Hey Jim, whatcha doin'?
- Well Bob, I'm trying to guzzle gas, so that I have an idea what millions of fish and sea life feel like in the gulf of Mexico.
-But Jim, didn't ya hear, the brilliant minds were at work, they plugged the leak after only 88 days! Problem over!
-Really Bob?
-Sure! BP will fall out of the news now and life is back to normal again. We worried for nothing
-Great stuff!

..meanwhile..

http://www.phongpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/oil-spill-gulf-mexico.jpg




http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/happy/applause.gif



Cat

The dispersant fluids are more toxic than the frikkin' oil.  They are rendering whole patches of the spill region lifeless.
:\'(

The dispersant fluids are more toxic than the frikkin' oil.  They are rendering whole patches of the spill region lifeless.
:\'(


Along with all the humans who will come in contact with the s--t

BP got it capped.  Good for them.  I'd much rather have it capped than not capped.  Now what do you want?  A reacharound?  You made the greatest ecological catastrophe in U.S. history.  

If I was BP's evil ass, I would have thrown up my hands and wept, we don't know how to make it stop!  That way the Army Corps of Engineers would have to go in and cap it.  Then if there are any future problems down there in the drink, BP could point the finger at the U.S. government.  Maybe that's why I'm not the CEO of BP....but I want to go home...I want my mummy...I want my old life back!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/crybaby2.gif

If I was BP's evil ass, I would have thrown up my hands and wept, we don't know how to make it stop!  That way the Army Corps of Engineers would have to go in and cap it.  Then if there are any future problems down there in the drink, BP could point the finger at the U.S. government.  Maybe that's why I'm not the CEO of BP....but I want to go home...I want my mummy...I want my old life back!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/crybaby2.gif

Wonder if this was suggested by BP at some point to the upper levels of US Government, but was denied/refused/shot down for reasons related to what you just brought up.

Wonder if this was suggested by BP at some point to the upper levels of US Government, but was denied/refused/shot down for reasons related to what you just brought up.


I do not know the politics nor the logistics, but if there was a way to implode the well into itself, we could stop the gusher, then the U.S. government had a moral obligation to seize the well as a threat to national security and destroy it.  The problem is there could be eruptions around the well if it gets plugged up.  I don't know.  They have to build the relief wells now. 

They're snowing us, man.  Nobody knows how much destruction has been wrought.  Not yet.  They don't even know HOW they're going to clean the mess up, let alone how long it would take!
::)

I do not know the politics nor the logistics, but if there was a way to implode the well into itself, we could stop the gusher, then the U.S. government had a moral obligation to seize the well as a threat to national security and destroy it.  The problem is there could be eruptions around the well if it gets plugged up.  I don't know.  They have to build the relief wells now. 

They're snowing us, man.  Nobody knows how much destruction has been wrought.  Not yet.  They don't even know HOW they're going to clean the mess up, let alone how long it would take!
::)


How long?  There is still oil showing up in Alaska from the Exxon Valdes.  It will take decades, if not centuries.

How long?  There is still oil showing up in Alaska from the Exxon Valdes.  It will take decades, if not centuries.

So with hurricanes being an annual event in the gulf of Mexico, it's within the realm of possibility that oil will be washing up on shore for years to come. I'm certain the residents there are thrilled to know that.

How long?  There is still oil showing up in Alaska from the Exxon Valdes.  It will take decades, if not centuries.


Some indigenous Alaskans had to abandon fishing villages their people had lived in for a thousand years.  It destroyed livelihoods and displaced people on top of the flat out environmental destruction.

The Gulf of Mexico is 100 times worse than the Exxon-Valdese.  Hey, only so much oil can leak out of a tanker.  The leaks down there in the Gulf might run for months, perhaps years.  Not to say any ecosystem isn't important, but what goes on in the Gulf of Mexico affects the entire North Atlantic.  The rocky beaches of Southern Alaska are far tougher than weedy estuaries of Louisiana.  They used to pressure blast the beaches up in Alaska.  If you pressure blast one those mangroves, the entire island would sink!  Thus, clean-up on the Gulf Coast is going to be a much more labor-intensive and intimate project.  Clean-up workers will go into the swamps and bring the witch doctor to ward off alligators, snakes, nuisance bugs, and other demons.  They will try to clean up as best they can, but the amount of damage and the number of clean-up sites might prove discouraging!

News:

As many as four leaks have been detected in the Deepwater Horizon well cap in the Gulf of Mexico, according to live footage shot by one of BP's ROVs (Remote Operated Vehicles). The leaks were detected early this morning, just after 4:00 (EDT).

If I was BP's evil ass, I would have thrown up my hands and wept, we don't know how to make it stop!  That way the Army Corps of Engineers would have to go in and cap it.  Then if there are any future problems down there in the drink, BP could point the finger at the U.S. government.  


That probably came up in BP's boardroom.  Problem was, BP - even more so than the Army Corps of Engineers - had the expertise to shut the thing off.


I do not know the politics nor the logistics, but if there was a way to implode the well into itself, we could stop the gusher, then the U.S. government had a moral obligation to seize the well as a threat to national security and destroy it.  The problem is there could be eruptions around the well if it gets plugged up.  I don't know.  They have to build the relief wells now. 

They're snowing us, man.  Nobody knows how much destruction has been wrought.  Not yet.  They don't even know HOW they're going to clean the mess up, let alone how long it would take!
::)


The cap is just a stopgap, but the relief wells are within a few meters of the bore. 

As for ways of imploding the well into itself - well, there was the Russian idea of using nukes, and that's about it.  And nukes were never designed to work at those depths, because the other side's submarines that might also be carrying nukes aren't designed to work at those depths.  It would have taken as long to design, model, build, and test a pressure case that could protect a nuke at those depths (and to drill the bore into which the nuke would have been placed) as it would have to just drill the relief wells, so the relief wells were the way to go.

None of which changes the fact that BP, by overriding the concerns of the (RIG, HAL, APC, CAM) engineers in place on the well, was responsible for the disaster in the first place, although the courts will determine what the ultimate price tag is.

That probably came up in BP's boardroom.  Problem was, BP - even more so than the Army Corps of Engineers - had the expertise to shut the thing off.

The cap is just a stopgap, but the relief wells are within a few meters of the bore.  

As for ways of imploding the well into itself - well, there was the Russian idea of using nukes, and that's about it.  And nukes were never designed to work at those depths, because the other side's submarines that might also be carrying nukes aren't designed to work at those depths.  It would have taken as long to design, model, build, and test a pressure case that could protect a nuke at those depths (and to drill the bore into which the nuke would have been placed) as it would have to just drill the relief wells, so the relief wells were the way to go.

None of which changes the fact that BP, by overriding the concerns of the (RIG, HAL, APC, CAM) engineers in place on the well, was responsible for the disaster in the first place, although the courts will determine what the ultimate price tag is.


Whoa! Whoa! Looking up engineering acronyms on the web is about as much fun as bucket-of-bolts-soup.  Like, don't go all shop-y and stuff on me, dude!  I don't know HAL.  I know HAL-9000!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/hal.gif


Let's not nuke the giant oil blow-out!  What's better than a tarball?  A new and improved radioactive tarball!
It's tarball, it's tarball...
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_thumleft.gif

Whoa! Whoa! Looking up engineering acronyms on the web is about as much fun as bucket-of-bolts-soup.  Like, don't go all shop-y and stuff on me, dude!  I don't know HAL.  I know HAL-9000!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/hal.gif


Not engineering acronyms, stock symbols :)  But yeah, that.  Transocean's (RIG) rig, Halliburton's (HAL) tech, Cameron's (CAM) blowout preventer, and Andarko (APC), which owns 25% of the project but which stands to get off scot-free if it's deemed that B(eyond|ritish) Petroleum (BP) was negligent.

As for the nuke... it woulda been neat to try.  We blew up hundreds of 'em under the Nevada desert during the underground testing era, and crap only leaked out of the underground setups a few times.  With a mile of water on top, it probably wouldn't have been more than a ripple on the surface, and any leakage of radioactive crap would have been far less dangerous than the oil that was already leaking. 

On the other hand - in addition to the reasons I outlined before, if the rock had been so fraglie as to allow for release of radioactive crap (however comparatively harmless it might be), such a nuke would also have failed to seal the well.  That's the other reason why the nuke wasn't a viable option: even if you wave the magic wand and teleport a nuke to the right place, if you screw it up, you've made the problem vastly worse.  If it takes less time to drill the relief well as it would to use the nuke, the relief well wins by a large margin on a risk/reward basis.  (And I say that as a guy who likes nukes and wishes they could be useful for more than just deterrence.  But the fact is that until we build an Orion or Daedalus-class starship, they really aren't useful for anything other than deterrence.  Of course, the fact that they really aren't useful for much more than deterrence still doesn't take away from their intrinsic awesomeness.  To borrow a line from a video game, "We do what we must, because we can" :)

Not engineering acronyms, stock symbols :) 
Last night...^  :-http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/drunken_smilie.gif

As for the nuke... it woulda been neat to try.  We blew up hundreds of 'em under the Nevada desert during the underground testing era, and crap only leaked out of the underground setups a few times.  With a mile of water on top, it probably wouldn't have been more than a ripple on the surface, and any leakage of radioactive crap would have been far less dangerous than the oil that was already leaking. 

Why does it need to be a nuke?  Couldn't they collapse the well with conventional explosives?

Why does it need to be a nuke?  Couldn't they collapse the well with conventional explosives?


You can't get enough conventional explosives in a small enough bore to make it work.

The nuke proposals aren't like putting out a fire like in Gulf War I, where you take a forklift and use a few hundred pounds of conventional explosives above a burning wellhead to blow it out like a candle (and leave an above-ground "gusher" - which is what BP was starting from, except that the gusher was a mile under the water.  The aboveground gusher is easily capped.  The one a mile below the water, not so much.)

The nukes the Russians used were placed some ~mumble~ feet beneath the ocean floor and conducting the equivalent of an underground nuclear test.  In an underground test, you vaporize a bunch of rock, and the rock above it collapses down onto the bubble, sealing it in so that there's no release of radioactive contaminants, like this:

http://ndep.nv.gov/boff/cavity.gif

...or the whole thing's glassed in, like this.  (Yes, that's a real human being standing in the bubble, less than six months after the detonation!  The punchline with Gnome was that it was supposed to seal itself in, but it didn't.  And that's for a device 1/5 the size of Hiroshima's, at 1000 feet depth.  No, you can't go down there to see for yourself, but you can visit the site!)

Even the Russians only scored 4 out of 5 when they tried to use it to shut in gas wells, which you can also add to the list of good reasons not to try it at all.  But if you were going to use explosives to try and shut in an undersea blowout oil well, a nuke would be the only way to make it work, because the conventional alternative would involve whole container ships filled with TNT, and there's just no way to bury a whole container ship 1000+ feet under the seafloor without disrupting the seafloor, which is precisely the opposite of what you're trying to do.  You need an explosion that's big enough to crush the leaking drill bore, but small enough and deep enough not to disrupt the seafloor.  Such an explosive must therefore be extremely powerful and extremely compact, so if you've decided to solve the problem with explosives, only a nuke will do.

Any problem can be solved with a suitable application of high explosives, but because weapon-carrying submarines don't work a mile underwater, neither we nor the Russians ever built suitably-applicable high explosive that could be repurposed for fixing things like the BP oil spill.

^ Karma for your explanation. 

I hadn't thought of the relative explosive power of small nukes compared to conventional.  Down the bore, I guess size matters!
;)

^ Karma for your explanation. 

I hadn't thought of the relative explosive power of small nukes compared to conventional.  Down the bore, I guess size matters!
;)


Anytime.  Not often I get a chance to be serious about stuff.  A lot of these problems have been solved, just not 5000 feet beneath the surface of the ocean.  For a good time, hit up Youtube for the 7.0 earthquake made by a test at Amchitka. (For a really good time, google around for a book called "Caging the Dragon".)

But back on topic, even if the idea had been given the green light on day one, the relief wells would have killed the Macondo blowout weeks/months before a viable nuke-based fix could have been implemented.  Using a nuke to stop the blowout would have been really cool, but the right solution here was to stop the leak, starting with low-risk quick-fix long shot ideas like the failed attempts to put caps over the wellhead, while working on low-risk, slow-but-damn-near-guaranteed-to-work solutions like the relief wells in case the low risk long shot options don't work. 

As BP found out on the day of the blowout, there's no "Undo" button here.  The nuke's a high-risk not-so-quick fix, and doesn't fit well into the decision matrix as long as low-risk options (be they quick or slow) are still available. 

Anytime.  Not often I get a chance to be serious about stuff.  A lot of these problems have been solved, just not 5000 feet beneath the surface of the ocean.  For a good time, hit up Youtube for the 7.0 earthquake made by a test at Amchitka. (For a really good time, google around for a book called "Caging the Dragon".)

But back on topic, even if the idea had been given the green light on day one, the relief wells would have killed the Macondo blowout weeks/months before a viable nuke-based fix could have been implemented.  Using a nuke to stop the blowout would have been really cool, but the right solution here was to stop the leak, starting with low-risk quick-fix long shot ideas like the failed attempts to put caps over the wellhead, while working on low-risk, slow-but-damn-near-guaranteed-to-work solutions like the relief wells in case the low risk long shot options don't work. 

As BP found out on the day of the blowout, there's no "Undo" button here.  The nuke's a high-risk not-so-quick fix, and doesn't fit well into the decision matrix as long as low-risk options (be they quick or slow) are still available. 


If they collapsed the well with nukes would BP have to abandon well altogether?  That is, would leftovers from the nuclear explosion irradiate oil workers in the future, or does the radiation dilute enough by then to make it safe?
???

If they collapsed the well with nukes would BP have to abandon well altogether?  That is, would leftovers from the nuclear explosion irradiate oil workers in the future, or does the radiation dilute enough by then to make it safe?
???


BP: The plan was always to abandon this well altogether.  

In general:  I don't know about oil, but we actually tried it with natural gas in the 60s.  (So did the Russians...)  It'd probably be safe to cap the well and extract the gas after a few years/decades, but probably not safe to extract the gas right after detonation, which means the return on investment on using nukes to fracture gas-bearing formations went way down.  Why wait years for the thing to cool off?  That defeats the whole purpose of "save money by drilling a hole, nuking it, and slurping the gas out of the fractured rock!"... When we realized we'd have to wait a while for the thing to cool off, the projects were abandoned.  

But back in the 60s, we didn't have techniques like horizontal drilling, which, combined with advanced seismic imaging and modern fracturing techniques, can get a lot more gas (or oil) out of the well than what was doable (or even economically feasible) back in the day.

Side note:  Yes, you can visit the Gasbuggy site, too!  It's in Carson National Forest, NM.

But back in the 60s, we didn't have techniques like horizontal drilling, which, combined with advanced seismic imaging and modern fracturing techniques, can get a lot more gas (or oil) out of the well than what was doable (or even economically feasible) back in the day.



I drink your milkshake!
;)

Now there is a NEW oil leak.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100727/ts_alt_afp/usoilpollutionenvironmentincident


When will the powers that be realize that fossil fuels are destroying this earth!!!!  >:( >:( >:( >:(




Cat

Now there is a NEW oil leak.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100727/ts_alt_afp/usoilpollutionenvironmentincident


When will the powers that be realize that fossil fuels are destroying this earth!!!!  >:( >:( >:( >:(




Cat


This earth will be just fine.  We might wreck the surface membrane we live on, but the planet won't notice.

As George Carlin said,

"What's this about saving the planet?  The planet isn't going anywhere; WE ARE!  Pack up your sh*t folks, we're going away!"

:o

This earth will be just fine.  We might wreck the surface membrane we live on, but the planet won't notice.

As George Carlin said,

"What's this about saving the planet?  The planet isn't going anywhere; WE ARE!  Pack up your sh*t folks, we're going away!"

:o


Thank You! Another point of Karma for agreement with me and my family!

China now has a problem with an oil spill. (I saw this on BBC America when I was watching "Kitchen Nightmares").