It seems that at the very least, the Catholic Church is now really beginning to die, with the sex scandal now tainting the Vatican. While I feel the Church began to decline after Vatican II, I think this is a gigantic nail in the coffin of the Church--and I think Christianity itself (beyond Catholicism) may be beginning to die.
What do you guys think?

Not dying per say, but people are beginning to question it.

It seems that at the very least, the Catholic Church is now really beginning to die, with the sex scandal now tainting the Vatican. While I feel the Church began to decline after Vatican II, I think this is a gigantic nail in the coffin of the Church--and I think Christianity itself (beyond Catholicism) may be beginning to die.
What do you guys think?


Hardly the case.  I can't speak for the Protestant arm of Christianity, but Catholicism is growing globally at a pretty good clip.  In the United States alone, Roman Catholic membership grew by about 900,000 in 2008, the most recent reporting period.  Note that there are 68 million Catholics in the United States, and about one billion worldwide.  Brazil has 139 million, Mexico has about 100 million.

And... there are far more Catholics worldwide today than there were prior to Vatican II.  Which makes sense whan you consider that the world population has massively grown in the same time period.

Best figures I have been able to find (via web) are that Christianity is increasing at a rate of 1.3% or so per year.  Islam seems to be growing at about 1.8%.

Not dying per say, but people are beginning to question it.


That's been going on since well before The Reformation, I think.  ;)

That's been going on since well before The Reformation, I think.   ;)


I would have to agree with you, on that one.

I'm sure there are a millions out there who wish Christianity was dying, but I assure you, it is not.

It seems that at the very least, the Catholic Church is now really beginning to die, with the sex scandal now tainting the Vatican. While I feel the Church began to decline after Vatican II, I think this is a gigantic nail in the coffin of the Church--and I think Christianity itself (beyond Catholicism) may be beginning to die.
What do you guys think?

Christianity won't die, but it's suffering some blows right now. In many ways, the church is a major turn off for many in this age/generation.

A ex-Pastor of mine once said "There are 2 groups of people who don't go to Church, Those who have never been to church, and those who have been to church"

Hardly the case.  I can't speak for the Protestant arm of Christianity, but Catholicism is growing globally at a pretty good clip.  In the United States alone, Roman Catholic membership grew by about 900,000 in 2008, the most recent reporting period.  Note that there are 68 million Catholics in the United States, and about one billion worldwide.  Brazil has 139 million, Mexico has about 100 million.

And... there are far more Catholics worldwide today than there were prior to Vatican II.  Which makes sense whan you consider that the world population has massively grown in the same time period.

Best figures I have been able to find (via web) are that Christianity is increasing at a rate of 1.3% or so per year.  Islam seems to be growing at about 1.8%.



The Catholic Church is probably starting to die in highly developed countries (with the exception of the U.S.) mostly in Western Europe, but yeah, as Lyric's saying, they've got the developing world covered.

In the long run, the majority of the world's religious people will likely be split among Catholics and Muslims.  Hindus will probably be a distant third in population ranking, with Protestants at number 4.

The Europeans have a pretty nice set-up nowadays, so a lot of 'em don't feel like they need God.  However, if the spaghetti hits the fan and the whole EU collapses into a neo-Medieval basketcase, the cathedrals will be full on Sundays, I guarantee!
:o

The Europeans have a pretty nice set-up nowadays, so a lot of 'em don't feel like they need God.  However, if the spaghetti hits the fan and the whole EU collapses into a neo-Medieval basketcase, the cathedrals will be full on Sundays, I guarantee!
:o

Until the crisis is over, then the Churches will be emptied again, not altogether different after what occurred on Sept 11th.

The Europeans have a pretty nice set-up nowadays, so a lot of 'em don't feel like they need God.  However, if the spaghetti hits the fan and the whole EU collapses into a neo-Medieval basketcase, the cathedrals will be full on Sundays, I guarantee!
:o


That probably depends on the country.  For example, the Czech Republic has remained very secular and atheistic through both the good and the bad in recent times.

Not dying per say, but people are beginning to question it.


Say, now wait a minute...people are beginning to question the Catholic church?  I thought we sorted that out 500 years ago!
:D

I think that inn the developed parts of the world, where the level of education is high, more and more people will become nominally christian, but the numbers will continue to increase.  The same will happen in the third world as ed level increase

I think that inn the developed parts of the world, where the level of education is high, more and more people will become nominally christian, but the numbers will continue to increase.  The same will happen in the third world as ed level increase


Christians, particularly Catholics, have done some great works in the troubled spots around the globe.  My major disagreement with Catholic doctrine is not its stance against abortion, but against contraception.  The people who are having the most children are those who can least afford to take care of them.  So there's that.  Then there's the fact that people love to screw and all the preaching in the world ain't gonna stop 'em.  Therefore, in order to cut down on both overpopulation and abortion, I would rather see the church promote contraception than condemn it...but that's not gonna happen either.
::)

Christians, particularly Catholics, have done some great works in the troubled spots around the globe.  My major disagreement with Catholic doctrine is not its stance against abortion, but against contraception.  The people who are having the most children are those who can least afford to take care of them.  So there's that.  Then there's the fact that people love to screw and all the preaching in the world ain't gonna stop 'em.  Therefore, in order to cut down on both overpopulation and abortion, I would rather see the church promote contraception than condemn it...but that's not gonna happen either.
::)


I think that the dynamics of Christian church membership in the USA provides an interesting view into what people feel that they "need" from a religion.


The Roamin' Catholic Church, despite its many faults, has held steadfast in its core teachings of respect for life, social justice, marriage, parenting, etc.  While some people may not like it, the Church nonetheless has held steady ground.  Its membership is growing with the overall population and Catholic "market share" is holding steady.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) also has held a steady market share.  I am not a Mormon expert, but I believe I am correct in saying that they, like the Catholic Church, tend to not change their teachings to suit current events (with the exception of that pesky polygamy thing that they had to drop a century or so ago).

A number of the traditional Protestant denominations have been more "flexible" with their teachings on abortion, marriage, parenting, etc.  And interstingly these denominations have been seeing domestic membership turmoil.  From 1990 to 2008, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbys, and Episcopalians all lost substantial market share, while Pentecostals and Evangelicals picked up share.  Additionally we see the Episcopalians in the middle of a major schism, and the Presbys are not far behind.
I have an interesting perspective on this since I was raised a Catholic but my Dad was a Presby, and he was very involved as a church Elder.  I can tell you that if he were still alive, he would have left the mainstream Presby Church for the various positions that the General Assembly has taken, and he'd be joining with the breakaway Presbyterian Church in America, which keeps the traditional approach.


Perhaps people (on the average in aggregate) are looking for a religion that "weathers the storm" instead of blowing in the wind? ???

Looking at the numbers (see link below) we probably should be talking more about what's up with the Methodists and the Baptists, who both appear to have lost big-time market share.  :-\\


Here's my data source for this post:

http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf

I think that inn the developed parts of the world, where the level of education is high, more and more people will become nominally christian, but the numbers will continue to increase.  The same will happen in the third world as ed level increase


Sort of...  although it does seem like my generation (X) and the later ones are less religious in general in most of the developed world.  In the 90s, there was a lot of talk about evangelicals rising in number, but between the 90s and the last decade, atheists/agnostics rose by a higher percentage than evangelicals.  Even today, the nonreligious are the fastest growing group in the developed world.

In America, Catholics will continue to rise in significance mostly through immigration, but I think in most other developed countries, atheists/agnostics will see more growth instead.  Although, Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe.

Denis Leary: Last time anybody on this planet called himself "Lord", he got himself crucified. I'm now the leader of the Lapsed Catholic Church, and here are the rules, my friends. Thou shalt not? *bleep* that, though *bleep*ing shall.

(?Priest?: Speak a little slower, you're starting to break a little sweat.)

Denis Leary: As long as you don't have sex with kids or kill anybody, you can do whatever the *M(bleep)D* you want in my church.

(Fiona Apple: ...and Maya Angelou said that this world is b*bloop*t...)

Leary: But you so much as look at an altar boy the wrong way, you don't get transferred to some distant parish up in Nova Scotia. No *BLEEP*in' way, pal, you stand naked - in the middle of Times Square - wearin' a big neon sign saying "I carry a torch for kids who carry candles," you *bleep*in' butts...

(Fiona Apple: And my boyfriend can make you disappear-)

...and there's no more magic, no more burning bushes or blueberry muffins. You screw up this time, the Virgin Mother shows up in your driveway like Ray Liotta in Goodfellas. She pistol-whips you, then she sets your dick on fire, OK?


  - Denis Leary, Lock and Load 1997. (Youtube link, warning, lots of naughty words)

If it's been 13 years since Denis Leary's legendary rant on the subject - which means at least 13 years since the issue has been a joke even amongst mainstream comedians - it's been a problem for hell of a lot longer than 13 years.

What's been going on since that rant?  Seems to me that people have been joining Denis Leary's Lapsed Catholic Church. 

Yeah, there are dirtbags in any religion and even many of the non-religions out there, but the difference between random wacko non-Judeo-Christian cultists and even the Protestant nutbars (be they Phelpsians or FDLSians) is that none of them have had the billions of dollars to institutionalize the cover-up in the way that the Catholics have. 

You wanna do something with your hands, Father?  Here's one of the new new effin' rules for ya.  "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up."  Now that they can't hide it anymore, do they apologize, excommunicate the people responsible (umm, I ain't no Cathaholic, but that is what's supposed to happen to those who turn 180 degrees to go balls-to-the-wall against the values of their supposed faith, right?), and turn 'em over to the cops?  Aaw, hell naw!  Instead, they just whine about how it's bad PR. 

This isn't about bad PR, that's the same goddamn institutional problem they've had for uncounted decades.  For all those of us outside the Church know, for centuries, but at least for as far back as Denis Leary was still able to sell albums!

Catholicism is not synonymous with Christianity, though..

One thing the recent scandals have done is show up the almost infinite depth of Vatican hypocrisy: to prattle on about being *the* arbiter of absolute morals in a decadent world, while all the while covering up for (and making possible further) child abuse takes tungsten cojones.  Catholic stances on birth control and abortion are liable to bring the world to an even quicker resource-starved (and starving-peopled) armageddon, while at the same time making people's lives generally worse, all with the ultimate in wishful thinking as a carrot to keep the faithful faithful.

Neither Christianity nor Catholicism are dying.  At least, not yet.  Unfortunately.

Speaking about Islams...it's basically starting to come in Europe!...

6-3X5hIFXYU

This may be conspiracy, but some Islamic Immigrants in Europe may become Christian. But most churches in Europe are Museums and some countries STILL hold on to their Christianity, like Poland and Slovakia.

European Muslims have more children than European Christians.

I never thought you'd have to pay the French to f**k, but maybe that's what it's gonna take iffen they wanna keep a Christian majority!

:-X

European Muslims have more children than European Christians.


I kinda like the fine print in this one, even though I haven't a clue what her actual religion is.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_O60Jg7biNLw/SY6wg6DIgdI/AAAAAAAAAfA/CoaGqn99Q_Q/s400/Idiocracy2.jpg

It was either that, or photoshop bomb-head-MCENSOREDd onto this guy...

http://angiesophy.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/6a00d8341c556453ef00e54f1ad8238833-640wi.jpg

...and change "DIOC" into some other four letters. 

European Muslims have more children than European Christians.

I never thought you'd have to pay the French to f**k, but maybe that's what it's gonna take iffen they wanna keep a Christian majority!

:-X


And most of the European Christians are Catholics!

They're supposed to be fruitful and multiply!

Maybe some Islamic Europeans may convert...I hope!

And most of the European Christians are Catholics!

They're supposed to be fruitful and multiply!

Maybe some Islamic Europeans may convert...I hope!


2 x 2 = 4
3 x 3 = 9....

2 x 2 = 4
3 x 3 = 9....


Yeah, but you then have to deduct all those gals who have to die as virgins in order to take care of the Jihadists after they meet their maker.  72 virgins a pop, it adds up...

If we're discussing religion in America as a whole I can see profuse changes but not dying.  Society is changing whether the Pope or Evangelicals or any other religious hardliner want to believe it or not.

In Cleveland...Catholicism is almost going to go with all the churches merging and closing.... :-\\

Yeah, but you then have to deduct all those gals who have to die as virgins in order to take care of the Jihadists after they meet their maker.  72 virgins a pop, it adds up...


They get 72 guy virgins!  Allah's little joke.
;)

I'm sure there are a millions out there who wish Christianity was dying, but I assure you, it is not.


That goes for any religion.  All religions have been attacked constantly throughout time.  Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Mormonism, Mohammedanism , the list goes on and on.

And the only people that seem to gloat and celebrate such things are those that enjoy attacking others for their faith.

And every time it seems like it is going down, it only returns with another wave of evangelicalism and returns stronger then before.

And the only people that seem to gloat and celebrate such things are those that enjoy attacking others for their faith.
It has always seemed to me that an awful lot of Christians seem to get quite a kick out of being persecuted.. so much so that they seem to manage to invent a perception of persecution even when it would take a huge stretch of the imagination to describe what's happening as even close to persecution.

It has always seemed to me that an awful lot of Christians seem to get quite a kick out of being persecuted.. so much so that they seem to manage to invent a perception of persecution even when it would take a huge stretch of the imagination to describe what's happening as even close to persecution.


You will notice the Christians who go on the most about being persecuted are also the most self-righteous, least tolerant of other faiths, and first to beat the drum for war and nationalism.  It's the same with all religions and nationalities.  Persecution is one of the best tricks in the hate-monger's bag.
::)

It has always seemed to me that an awful lot of Christians seem to get quite a kick out of being persecuted.. so much so that they seem to manage to invent a perception of persecution even when it would take a huge stretch of the imagination to describe what's happening as even close to persecution.


That is certainly not me, since I only loosly consider myself "Christian".  And I defend all faiths equally, Abrahamic or not.