http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/30/michigan.militia.arrests/index.html?hpt=T2


Did any of you see this?  Scary.  Makes me wonder.  Since we take suspected terrorists around the world into custody, most without a trial, even if we don't know if they pose a threat or if they are indeed terrorists, can we go after these militia groups in America on the premise of them being suspected terrorists?  Do we leave them alone because they are Americans.  Granted, not all of these groups have done anything, but they still pose a threat to American citizens.  I do, however, remember a certain bombing in Oklahoma City.  Are these groups just going to be vocal, or do you think something bad will happen soon?  Are they freedom fighters?  Patriots?  Interesting. 

Right now they're only threatening the federal government.  Who cares about them?  They levy taxes on us and make rules telling us what to do.  We don't like them anyway.

Now, let the militias threaten the banks and the oil corporations and see what happens.
::)

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/30/michigan.militia.arrests/index.html?hpt=T2


Did any of you see this?  Scary.  Makes me wonder.  Since we take suspected terrorists around the world into custody, most without a trial, even if we don't know if they pose a threat or if they are indeed terrorists, can we go after these militia groups in America on the premise of them being suspected terrorists?  Do we leave them alone because they are Americans.  Granted, not all of these groups have done anything, but they still pose a threat to American citizens.  I do, however, remember a certain bombing in Oklahoma City.  Are these groups just going to be vocal, or do you think something bad will happen soon?  Are they freedom fighters?  Patriots?  Interesting.   



I have been following the story and it is indeed VERY SCARY!!! Especially, when you have Republicans, like Sarah Palin egging on extremists with words like "Reload." THEN she has the nerve to say that it is just a figure of speech. She just doesn't get that people take her words LITERALLY!!!

As for these militia groups, they are TERRORISTS!!!! Just as bad-if not worse than al-Qaida. I don't understand how they can call themselves "freedom fighters". Who's freedom are they fighting for? Certainly not yours or mine. Maybe their own. But freedom of what? Freedom to kill people? I don't understand how they can call themselves "patriots" either. According to Merriam-Webster On-Line, the definition of "patriot" is: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests. How can they be patriots when they want to destroy the government. To me, that spells anarchists.

How does law enforcement handle them? Good question. I don't think they are a threat to the government. They are way too small for that-even if you get all of them together, there numbers are too small and the ideology are all vastly different that they could never reach some kind of coalitionist. However, I think they do pose a threat to society. I was very glad that this particular group was caught BEFORE their plot was carried out. I hope that more groups are caught BEFORE their plots can be carried out, too. Maybe that will act as a deterrent for other groups. I can hope.  :-\\



Cat

See?  And you thought that Tea Baggers are crazy!

::)

http://current.com/news/92347543_fbi-raids-hutaree-christian-militia-after-threats-made-against-islamic-groups.htm

The First and Second Amendments and subsequent Supreme Court decisions make it difficult to arrest American citizens for possessing firearms and expressing displeasure with government.  Most of the time this is a good thing.  The FBI might keep tabs on you, but they won't bust you unless they think they can make a case of imminent lawless action.  When you start making specific threats and targets, that's when the FBI moves in.  They figure if they busted Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols a little sooner, maybe 168 people wouldn't have died in OKC fifteen years ago, so these nutjobs in Michigan can thank Nichols and McVeigh.

Sometimes the feds screw up and people die because of it, such as the Black Panthers, the Symbionese Liberation Army, Ruby Ridge, and the Branch Davidians.  In those cases if the feds held their wad and exercised a little more patience, they could have arrested anyone who had broken the law without people getting shot or immolated.
::)

I have been following the story and it is indeed VERY SCARY!!! Especially, when you have Republicans, like Sarah Palin egging on extremists with words like "Reload." THEN she has the nerve to say that it is just a figure of speech. She just doesn't get that people take her words LITERALLY!!!

As for these militia groups, they are TERRORISTS!!!! Just as bad-if not worse than al-Qaida. I don't understand how they can call themselves "freedom fighters". Who's freedom are they fighting for? Certainly not yours or mine. Maybe their own. But freedom of what? Freedom to kill people? I don't understand how they can call themselves "patriots" either. According to Merriam-Webster On-Line, the definition of "patriot" is: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests. How can they be patriots when they want to destroy the government. To me, that spells anarchists.

How does law enforcement handle them? Good question. I don't think they are a threat to the government. They are way too small for that-even if you get all of them together, there numbers are too small and the ideology are all vastly different that they could never reach some kind of coalitionist. However, I think they do pose a threat to society. I was very glad that this particular group was caught BEFORE their plot was carried out. I hope that more groups are caught BEFORE their plots can be carried out, too. Maybe that will act as a deterrent for other groups. I can hope.  :-\\


Cat


Well I guess they "officially" become terrorists when they are caught planning an attack, or carry one out.  At this stage I would say you are a bit overboard on saying they (as a generality) may be "worse than Al Quaida".  The Hutaree certainly seems to have been bidding to do Al Quaida-liek things though.

Some of these domestic militias are certainly scum bags, but to date they have not launched any attacks or done anything even near to what Al Quaida does.  And the OK City bombing was not an official militia act but rather that of one or two nut cases.  If it had been a militia action, somebody woulda claimed credit.

I can tell you this, rural Michigan is teeming with all sorts of nut cases and militia types, and it does not matter whether a Democrat of a Republican is in power.  Back in '01, I spent a week at a supplier's offices in northeast Michigan.  My desk was right near the FAX machine.  I kid you not, at least once an hour a fax would come over, railing about gun rights, black helicopters, the conspiracy of globalization, immigration, the Trilateral commission, tin-foil hats, you name it.

There was a guy who worked there who happened to be a black dude. One day at lunch time I said "Hey come on with me I'm buying".  He told me "Thanks, LB, but not such a good idea for you to be eating lunch with a black guy.  People around here don't like that too much.".

These groups scare the schitt out of me.  I consider them terrorists.  I don't know that I would classify all militia groups as terrorists, though I do think they're all a bit wacky.  But this group - definitely terrorists.  I wonder if they'll waterboard them.

These groups scare the schitt out of me.  I consider them terrorists.  I don't know that I would classify all militia groups as terrorists, though I do think they're all a bit wacky.  But this group - definitely terrorists.  I wonder if they'll waterboard them.



That depends if Dick Cheney is in charge of interrogating them. But, knowing Dick, he will probably want to use them as body guards.



Cat

Right now they're only threatening the federal government.  Who cares about them?  They levy taxes on us and make rules telling us what to do.  We don't like them anyway.

Now, let the militias threaten the banks and the oil corporations and see what happens.
::)


Exactly...  the militias don't seem to understand who's really pulling the strings.

There was a guy who worked there who happened to be a black dude. One day at lunch time I said "Hey come on with me I'm buying".  He told me "Thanks, LB, but not such a good idea for you to be eating lunch with a black guy.  People around here don't like that too much.".


Good God, that's horrible.  I wonder how that black guy coped living up in redneck central!  Now, how do you think the "people around here don't like that too much" people like having a black guy as president?
:o

Hey, so April 19th is the 15th anniversary of the massacre at Oklahoma City.  Let's commemorate it by holding an armed anti-government march on Washington.  These guys ain't too bright, are they?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/jerk.gif

btw, I just heard Ted Nugent pulled out of the deal.  He wanted more money than they could pay.  "What's more important, Ted, upholding the U.S. Constitution or the almighty dollar?"
"The almighty dollar," says Ted
"You're our boy," says the G.O.P.
::)

Well I guess they "officially" become terrorists when they are caught planning an attack, or carry one out.  At this stage I would say you are a bit overboard on saying they (as a generality) may be "worse than Al Quaida".  The Hutaree certainly seems to have been bidding to do Al Quaida-liek things though.


I have to disagree with you on that one.  Terrorists can be defined as anyone who creates terror in their intended victims. Getting together and printing up hate speech tracts is pretty much good enough for me to call them terrorists even before they get to the planning and attack stages.  It doesn't mean they should be arrested for printing their hate materials, but they definitely should be called out as terrorists and not "militia" or any other term they want to be called.

I have to disagree with you on that one.  Terrorists can be defined as anyone who creates terror in their intended victims. Getting together and printing up hate speech tracts is pretty much good enough for me to call them terrorists even before they get to the planning and attack stages.  It doesn't mean they should be arrested for printing their hate materials, but they definitely should be called out as terrorists and not "militia" or any other term they want to be called.


Nah., "militia" is appropriate.  These guys train with weapons.

As for "hate speech", it requires somebody to produce it and somebody to be affected by it and believe it.  Quite frankly our country has gone waaaay overboard on the "hate speech" kick.  Bottom line is that the USA has freedom of speech, regardless of how absurd or offensive it may be.  Labeling people as "terrorists" because one does not like what they have to say is a weak and lazy minded approach to an issue.

Here in Picksburgh we have a case where two young black kids went out one night and decided to rob the first person they came upon, at gunpoint.  After they got caught (after having murdered a retired fireman in their attack), one of them tried to justify the shooting because he alleges that the firemen (read: the victim who had a gun pulled on him) called the stickup men the "N word" when he was held up.  As if that justified murdering him, the "hate speech".

Now as it turns out, the other accomplice said that in fact the guy was polite as he was being robbed, and that his buddy shot him anyway.

Nah., "militia" is appropriate.  These guys train with weapons.

As for "hate speech", it requires somebody to produce it and somebody to be affected by it and believe it.  Quite frankly our country has gone waaaay overboard on the "hate speech" kick.  Bottom line is that the USA has freedom of speech, regardless of how absurd or offensive it may be.  Labeling people as "terrorists" because one does not like what they have to say is a weak and lazy minded approach to an issue.

Here in Picksburgh we have a case where two young black kids went out one night and decided to rob the first person they came upon, at gunpoint.  After they got caught (after having murdered a retired fireman in their attack), one of them tried to justify the shooting because he alleges that the firemen (read: the victim who had a gun pulled on him) called the stickup men the "N word" when he was held up.  As if that justified murdering him, the "hate speech".

Now as it turns out, the other accomplice said that in fact the guy was polite as he was being robbed, and that his buddy shot him anyway.


Well, did the judge buy the "hate speech" argument?  Even if the victim did call the kid the N word, I still wouldn't hear of anything short of second degree murder, felony murder maybe.  First degree, probably not unless the people could demonstrate the two punks went out intending to kill not merely rob.  In either case, if I was the judge, I would call using "hate speech" as a mitigating factor in murder bad precedent. 

Anyway, for decades the biggest terrorist group in the United States was the Ku Klux Klan.  Terror was their prime M.O.  White pride and all that other rubbish was secondary.  Heck, if your name was Seamus O'Shaughnessy and you ran for mayor of Wazoo, Mississippi in 1954, you'd get a cross burned on your lawn as sure as the sun sets in the west.  The Klan hated them "papists" as much as the Blacks and the Jews, and it didn't matter how lily white your complexion was.

Well, did the judge buy the "hate speech" argument?  Even if the victim did call the kid the N word, I still wouldn't hear of anything short of second degree murder, felony murder maybe.  First degree, probably not unless the people could demonstrate the two punks went out intending to kill not merely rob.  In either case, if I was the judge, I would call using "hate speech" as a mitigating factor in murder bad precedent. 

Anyway, for decades the biggest terrorist group in the United States was the Ku Klux Klan.  Terror was their prime M.O.  White pride and all that other rubbish was secondary.  Heck, if your name was Seamus O'Shaughnessy and you ran for mayor of Wazoo, Mississippi in 1954, you'd get a cross burned on your lawn as sure as the sun sets in the west.  The Klan hated them "papists" as much as the Blacks and the Jews, and it didn't matter how lily white your complexion was.


I kinda doubt that the judge or any jury is gonna buy the "hate speech" angle.  You know, the "sticks and stones" legal precedent sort of already covers that angle. 

My Mom remembers the KKK being active in Beaver Falls (hehehehehe) in the early 1920's, where they would burn crosses on the front lawns of Catholics and blacks.  Which was kind of weird, because we Catholics were the majority by something like 70% or so.  Prolly explains why the KKK did not last very long around here.

I kinda doubt that the judge or any jury is gonna buy the "hate speech" angle.  You know, the "sticks and stones" legal precedent sort of already covers that angle. 

My Mom remembers the KKK being active in Beaver Falls (hehehehehe) in the early 1920's, where they would burn crosses on the front lawns of Catholics and blacks.  Which was kind of weird, because we Catholics were the majority by something like 70% or so.  Prolly explains why the KKK did not last very long around here.


The WASP plantation class was definitely WASP.  So was most of the South, except the Blacks weren't white Anglo-Saxon!  So, if you're dealing with a Mediterranean or Hibernian heritage, you're looking at outsiders to hate.  If you decided "papists" are scum, you get a double whammy for the Italians and the Irish at once. 

And the John Birch Society still hates the Jews no matter how many times they deny it.  But who gives a crap about the JBS anymore, they're bunch of paranoid ultra-Libertarians who couldn't find their goddam azzwholes if their goddam necks weren't attached to 'em!
Pardon my French.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/icon_biggrin.gif

The WASP plantation class was definitely WASP.  So was most of the South, except the Blacks weren't white Anglo-Saxon!  So, if you're dealing with a Mediterranean or Hibernian heritage, you're looking at outsiders to hate.  If you decided "papists" are scum, you get a double whammy for the Italians and the Irish at once. 

And the John Birch Society still hates the Jews no matter how many times they deny it.  But who gives a crap about the JBS anymore, they're bunch of paranoid ultra-Libertarians who couldn't find their goddam azzwholes if their goddam necks weren't attached to 'em!
Pardon my French.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/icon_biggrin.gif



That's not French. That is English.  ;) ;D ;D ;D




Cat

I grew up listening to my dad bitching about the John Birch Society (or birching about the John Bitch Society), which had an active contingent in New Hampshire at the time.  One of the charges they were always defending themselves against was anti-Semitism.  They were wound a little tight, the Birchers. 
::)

I just love how all these people who are freaking out about "ObamaNation" and stockpiling guns and ammunition are the same people who, when confronted about the Patriot Act, were like, "I don't care if the government wiretaps my phones! I don't break the law! I don't have anything to hide!"  ::) ::) ::)

I just love how all these people who are freaking out about "ObamaNation" and stockpiling guns and ammunition are the same people who, when confronted about the Patriot Act, were like, "I don't care if the government wiretaps my phones! I don't break the law! I don't have anything to hide!"  ::) ::) ::)


There's a considerable difference between wiretapping during wartime and confiscation of finances and gun rights during peacetime.  Now that said, over the next few years I expect to see an EXPANSION of gun rights due to the fairly recent SCOTUS ruling re: the second amendment.

Wiretapping of domestic communications, of course, should strictly be illegal without a warrant issued by an appropriately secured judge or as otherwide laid out in various 4th amendment decisions.  Stockpiling guns and ammo?  As long as the guy stockpiling is not a convicted felon and the guns are otherwise procured legally, what's the beef?

I just love how all these people who are freaking out about "ObamaNation" and stockpiling guns and ammunition are the same people who, when confronted about the Patriot Act, were like, "I don't care if the government wiretaps my phones! I don't break the law! I don't have anything to hide!"  ::) ::) ::)



Yup-exactly. Of course a lot of that has to do with the fact that they listen to the likes of Rush, Sean, & Glenn scaring people into thinking that Obama is going to take away their 2nd Amendment rights but they ignored  the fact that the Bush Administration tried to take away their 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, & 10th Amendments. Some may argue that Bush even tried to take away the 2nd & 3rd Amendment rights, too. But they had their guns that was all that mattered.


http://eternalhope.blog-city.com/how_bush_violates_first_ten_constitutional_amendments.htm



Cat

Nobody's paying attention to the 3rd Amendment.  While you guys are all griping and moaning about the others, congress will repeal the 3rd because they wanna close all the bases, so you'll have to domicile soldiers in your garage whether you like or not!
:D

Nobody's paying attention to the 3rd Amendment.  While you guys are all griping and moaning about the others, congress will repeal the 3rd because they wanna close all the bases, so you'll have to domicile soldiers in your garage whether you like or not! :D


Hey, it's the only one of the first ten amendments that's still in force.  Ya gotta figure they're gonna get around to it sooner or later.  I'm surprised it took 'em this long :)

As one who parks in a shared underground space, at least I won't have to worry about asshats placing their shopping bags on my car and scratching the trunk. Took me half an hour to get the friggin' swirls out... so fair enough!