From what I have read, this measure passed with a 58/42 vote split and took the form of a constitutional amendment.  Apparently the outcome was a surprise, as conventional wisdom said that the measure would be rejected by the Swiss electorate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385893.stm

Any opinions here as to what the outcome will be now that the ban has been voted in? ???

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.  My guess is that the "Central European Government" will attempt to say this this violates "European Law".  I think that if the EU this move, the supporters of the bill will gain strength, calling out the "European Government" as an infringement of Swiss sovreignity.

I wonder what the Swiss consitution has to say about voter-affirmed amendments.  Some pundits are saying that the Swiss Supreme Court may overturn the law, but I would think this could only be the case if it is found that somehow there was a procedural error in the election itself.  Any Swiss constitutional law experts out there?

The rise of Islam in Europe is going to hurt the Islams and many may convert.

There may be uprisings in Europe, or worse yet...another Hitler! :o

The rise of Islam in Europe is going to hurt the Islams and many may convert.

There may be uprisings in Europe, or worse yet...another Hitler! :o


I don't know if it will happen over THIS issue or not, but I have said for a long time now that the formation of the "European Government" will indeed serve as the catalyst for a radical ultranationalist to emerge. And blood will ultimately be shed over it. 

The EU makes a ripe target that can be blamed for all sorts of a country's ills (real or imagined). And it's infringement on the sovreignity of states is exactly the kind of match that can ignite an ultranationalist fire, and the kind of excuse to start a war. 

Young philbo may be the man to ask, but I'm not sure if EU law applies to Switzerland (seeing as how the country is not actually part of the EU)...

Young philbo may be the man to ask, but I'm not sure if EU law applies to Switzerland (seeing as how the country is not actually part of the EU)...


Agreed, but apparently there is some sort of European Human Rights regime of which Switzerland is a member; another one of these "international government" thingies.

Agreed, but apparently there is some sort of European Human Rights regime of which Switzerland is a member; another one of these "international government" thingies.


You possibly know more than I!

I was under the impression that European Human Rights Laws only applied to member states, but then, I hardly know a thing about how this impregnable layer of bureaucracy works...I just pay my taxes to keep it functioning!

Of course, in America, I recall some controversy with minarets being called a noise nuisance, but I'd rather hear a cantor (what do they call them in Islam?) calling the faithful to prayer than...well, a lot of other noises you hear around American cities.  It's a First Amendment issue here. 

In Switzerland, like most democratic societies, they do have religious tolerance and I don't think an outright ban on minarets is going to fly.

Of course, in America, I recall some controversy with minarets being called a noise nuisance, but I'd rather hear a cantor (what do they call them in Islam?) calling the faithful to prayer than...well, a lot of other noises you hear around American cities. 


Muezzin?

Muezzin?


Yup, that would be it.  Thanx.
:)

As of late, Switzerland has been taking a far right turn in politics.

It's unfortunate, but predictable.

Those wacky Swisses!

Agreed, but apparently there is some sort of European Human Rights regime of which Switzerland is a member; another one of these "international government" thingies.


You're probably thinking of the Council of Europe(a completely separate and largely unrelated body to the European Union), of which Switzerland IS a member:

http://www.coe.int/aboutcoe/index.asp?page=quisommesnous&l=en
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

As of late, Switzerland has been taking a far right turn in politics.

It's unfortunate, but predictable.


It's because they've realized if they dont save their culture and society, it will be taken from them by the Muslims.
I don't know why liberals love Muslims so much, when their religion is extremely socially conservative.

It's because they've realized if they dont save their culture and society, it will be taken from them by the Muslims.
I don't know why liberals love Muslims so much, when their religion is extremely socially conservative.


Most religions in their most publicly recognizable forms are extremely socially conservative, since extremist minorities tend to be very vocal while moderate majorities tend to mind their own business.

If there are mass conversions to Islam in Switzerland, it's much more likely to be due to people protesting this policy than Islamic evangelism, and either way is extremely unlikely

It's because they've realized if they dont save their culture and society, it will be taken from them by the Muslims.
I don't know why liberals love Muslims so much, when their religion is extremely socially conservative.


The Muslim population in Switzerland is much higher than the U.S. -- about 4%.  Furthermore, there are now about four or five minarets in the entire country of Switzerland.  It does not appear an Islamic cultural takeover is immanent. 

As a liberal and an agnostic, I don't love people for what they believe but for what they do.  Intolerant religious people who demand I believe what they believe and do what they do or face perdition are troubling to me and to most liberals.  You are right in that there are many such people in Islam...but Muslims are a tiny minority in the United States.  We have right-wing Christians in Congress who want to run the country by their idea of "Biblical law."  If there were a caucus of Muslim senators demanding Sharia law for the United States neither I nor any American liberals would favor them any more than we favor the Christian Right.

It would be interesting to read the details of the minaret ban.  What are the specifications that define a "minaret"?

What is there to keep a mosque from simply plastering a buttload of PA speakers on the roof so that the muzzin can put out the call to prayer anyway? ???  (i.e., a "minarette")

Or, what happens if a Christian church is built with a steeple, and then a year or so later, the property is sold to a Muslim group and a muzzing starts hollering out from the "steeple"? ??? 

All this said, many of the countries protesting the minaret ban have little moral ground upon which to stand.  The Muslim-predominate countries (not all of them, mind you) have something less than Western-style freedom of religion.

It would be interesting to read the details of the minaret ban.  What are the specifications that define a "minaret"?



I thought they were those little cigars you smoke out of one of them long holder thingies...
:D

I thought they were those little cigars you smoke out of one of them long holder thingies...
:D


Heck, I thought minarets were what jet fighters dropped their bombs between down the casbah way when they wanted to earn their pay.  ;D

Heck, I thought minarets were what jet fighters dropped their bombs between down the casbah way when they wanted to earn their pay.  ;D


Ricola don't like it, rock the Casbah....

:D

Ricola don't like it, rock the Casbah....

:D


Maybe the Swiss Muslims could give their all of their muzzins those big horns like they use in the Ricola commercials, so as to call the faithful to prayer.  ;)

http://www.elsaelsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ricola.jpg

Maybe the Swiss Muslims could give their all of their muzzins those big horns like they use in the Ricola commercials, so as to call the faithful to prayer.   ;)

http://www.elsaelsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ricola.jpg




I had my Ricola joke, but Jon Stewart stole it.
::)

I was talking about this with a few of my Swiss friends, who werea ll against this ban, this past weekend and I asked them if there wasn't a supreme court or something that would strike down the law. They told me there was no way it would be struck down and that, in Switzerland, once a referendum passes, that's pretty much it. The voice of the people trumps everything there, apparently. They also said the federal government won't accept foreign interference when it's a question of referenda.

Switzerland holds referenda all the time on all sorts of things. I suppose the only way to turn this around is to have another one!

In any case, I couldn't care less if there will be no more minarets in Switzerland. It may set a precedent and it may not, but who cares. It's just Switzerland.

It's because they've realized if they dont save their culture and society, it will be taken from them by the Muslims.
I don't know why liberals love Muslims so much, when their religion is extremely socially conservative.


Your argument would be much stronger for the Netherlands, but that's another discussion altogether.  Switzerland does have a growing Muslim population, but it's nothing particularly significant in comparison to the dominant Christian culture there.

As for liberals and Muslims, the only danger I see in sympathizing with Muslims is that some liberals make the mistake of believing in the idea that the West is somehow responsible for all of the Islamic World's ills.  Other than that, I don't see any danger in supporting the religious freedom of Muslims -- so long as they follow local laws.

As for liberals and Muslims, the only danger I see in sympathizing with Muslims is that some liberals make the mistake of believing in the idea that the West is somehow responsible for all of the Islamic World's ills.  Other than that, I don't see any danger in supporting the religious freedom of Muslims -- so long as they follow local laws.

I agree.  I don't see why religious considerations of any kind should override the law of whatever country, ever.

ISTM that a lot is being made out of this: it's not a real lurch to the xeno/islamophobic right wing (even though at least one of the ads run for the ban campaign was a bit beyond the pale).  They've not banned mosques, or practising Islam.  All they've done is ban the architectural statement of building little towers (I say, "little".. would a little one be a minaretette?).  Which ISTM isn't going to change anything at all, as no planning permission had been given for any up till now - in effect, it's rounding up all the planning statements up to now and saying "look, don't bother asking again"

Incidentally, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU: Switzerland isn't a member, and isn't a signatory to the EU Declaration of Human Rights.  It is possibly the most democratic nation on earth, with decisions like this going to local or national referenda.

Switzerland isn't a member (of the EU) , and isn't a signatory to the EU Declaration of Human Rights. 


A wise move on the part of the Swiss government (or people).

A wise move on the part of the Swiss government (or people).

The Swiss value their independence too highly: I don't think there's ever been even a suggestion that a significant minority of Swiss (let alone a majority) support the idea of joining the EU.

The Swiss value their independence too highly: I don't think there's ever been even a suggestion that a significant minority of Swiss (let alone a majority) support the idea of joining the EU.


The Swiss people (in my opinion) have taken the right road by not joining the EU.  In time, the EU entity will become the scapegoat used for some oddball politician to wage a war.  The EU is a formalized abrogation of the sovreignity of its member nations (who willingly joined) which is an invitation to someone to cloak their efforts in the notion of nationalism.  My estimate is that trouble will brew regarding the EU and sovreignity issues as China and other developing countries continue to advance, and EU member country fortunes decline.  Then "Katie bar the door..."

The Swiss people (in my opinion) have taken the right road by not joining the EU.  In time, the EU entity will become the scapegoat used for some oddball politician to wage a war.  The EU is a formalized abrogation of the sovreignity of its member nations (who willingly joined) which is an invitation to someone to cloak their efforts in the notion of nationalism.  My estimate is that trouble will brew regarding the EU and sovreignity issues as China and other developing countries continue to advance, and EU member country fortunes decline.  Then "Katie bar the door..."


The Swiss have their own priorities and if that means holding gold for the Germans out there killing all the Jews, then sooooo be it!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/elkgrin.gif

Just been emailed these by a friend who works in Switzerland