My understanding is that somebody saw Mr. Gates and a friend trying to "force entry" into the house when they were really trying to unjam the door.  So the observer called the cops because it looked like a break-in.  OK, so far, so good and I guess the observer did not recognize Gates as the occupant.

From what I have read in the papers (note the papers are not renowned for accuracy), when the cops showed up, they asked Gates for ID and he threw a hissy fit.  Note that when cops show up to a possible burglary, and ask a potential burglar for identification, when a hissy fit is thrown they understandably get very suspicious.

Will be interesting to see the entire case report when it is prepared and published, to see what is what.

From what I read in the papers (again, with above proviso) it seems that Gates was upset that the cops never heard of him.  MOST PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES never heard of him.

Oh well, Al Sharpton now has something to turn his attention to after having milked the Michael Jackson thing....

I never heard of him either :(

But how hard is it to whip out the wallet and show them the ID?  Sheesh.

I find it hard to believe that a well known Harvard professor would automatically start up with cops like that, especially because he's African American and knows how cops can act sometimes.

So here are the two sides:

Gates' side:

Charles Ogletree, a professor at Harvard Law School who is Gates' lawyer in this case, told CNN on Tuesday that Gates -- the director of Harvard's W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research -- had returned from China on Thursday to his Cambridge home and discovered his front door jammed.

He opened his back door with his key and tried unsuccessfully from inside his home to open the front door. Eventually, Gates and his driver forced the door open from the outside, Ogletree said.

The professor was inside for several minutes when a police officer, Sgt. James Crowley, appeared at his steps and asked him to step outside, the lawyer said.

According to his lawyer, Gates told the officer he lived there and showed him his Massachusetts driver's license and Harvard University identification card. The officer followed him into his house and said he had received a report of a possible break-in, the lawyer said. Gates grew frustrated that the officer was continuing to question him in his home and asked for the officer's name and badge number, Ogletree said.

Police officers' side:

The police report offers a different account of the incident.

Gates refused to step outside to speak with the officer, the police report said, and when Crowley told Gates that he was investigating a possible break-in, Gates opened the front door and exclaimed, "Why, because I'm a black man in America?" the report said.

"While I was led to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence, I was quite surprised and confused with the behavior he exhibited toward me," he said, according to the report.

The report said Gates initially refused to show the officer identification, but eventually produced a Harvard identification card, prompting Crowley to radio for Harvard University Police.

Gates followed the officer outside and continued to accuse him of racial bias, the report said. After Crowley warned the professor twice that he was becoming disorderly, the officer wrote he arrested Gates for "loud and tumultuous behavior in a public space."

The charge is sort of confusing to me.  If he was standing on his property, then it isn't really considered a public place, right?  The article wasn't clear on where he was standing when his supposed mouthing off took place.

Hmmm...I wonder if there was video or any recording of the incident.  But I guess those can be doctored too :(

I'm gonna side with the cops on this one.  Gates has an activist background, and like it or not, activists tend to be theatrical and pissy in general.

My understanding is that somebody saw Mr. Gates and a friend trying to "force entry" into the house when they were really trying to unjam the door.  So the observer called the cops because it looked like a break-in.  OK, so far, so good and I guess the observer did not recognize Gates as the occupant.

From what I have read in the papers (note the papers are not renowned for accuracy), when the cops showed up, they asked Gates for ID and he threw a hissy fit.  Note that when cops show up to a possible burglary, and ask a potential burglar for identification, when a hissy fit is thrown they understandably get very suspicious.

Will be interesting to see the entire case report when it is prepared and published, to see what is what.

From what I read in the papers (again, with above proviso) it seems that Gates was upset that the cops never heard of him.  MOST PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES never heard of him.

Oh well, Al Sharpton now has something to turn his attention to after having milked the Michael Jackson thing....


Most people in the United States don't even know who represents them in Congress.
::)

Anyway, the cops in the vicinity of Harvard University should certainly know who Henry Louis Gates is.  I don't think Gates said "yo mama," but I wouldn't doubt he made angry remarks to the police.  Gates is not known for being submissive and demure.  However, the cops had no call to haul him in.  Come on.  Talking back to cops shouldn't get you arrested. 

As for reaching for his wallet, cops have shot Black men who were trying to do just that!

I'm not siding with the cops, but if Professor Gates could have behaved more diplomatically, he would not have given racist commentators in this country exactly the kind of story they love:  An uppity Black elitist giving lip to the city's finest.  I'll bet Howie Carr (Boston's Rush Limbaugh) is having a field day with this.  It's probably all he talked about today!
::)

I'm gonna side with the cops on this one.  Gates has an activist background, and like it or not, activists tend to be theatrical and pissy in general.


Then you don't know anything about Henry Louis Gates, theatrical and pissy are not words used to describe him.  His background is scholarly, not activist, unless of course you label a black scholar and automatic activist for daring to aspire. Bottom line is the police were allowed in his home, inside the home Professor Gates showed the officer 2 forms of I.D. The minute that happened the cop should have said "thank you,sorry for the problem" and left.  The Cambridge cop who made the arrest is one of the 5 highest paid cops in the department, there is always a story behind those guys.  They boost there pay by making arrests and going to court, adding to their overtime.  The events in question happened inside the house, Gates said the cop refused to give him his badge number and kept asking him to come outside.  Turns out legally, the cop could claim "public nuisance" once outside of the house, even on his own property.  Sounds like the cop knew how to goad the guy.

I would say that 99.99% of the people who know, or know of Skip Gates, feel he would have had to have been sorely tested to act in the manner he did.  The charges have been dropped. 

Oh, and the "yo mama" bit, was he wearing a big afro and a knit cap, too?  Sounds like the cop took a lesson from the playbook of Susan Smith.

Then you don't know anything about Henry Louis Gates, theatrical and pissy are not words used to describe him.  His background is scholarly, not activist, unless of course you label a black scholar and automatic activist for daring to aspire. Bottom line is the police were allowed in his home, inside the home Professor Gates showed the officer 2 forms of I.D. The minute that happened the cop should have said "thank you,sorry for the problem" and left.  The Cambridge cop who made the arrest is one of the 5 highest paid cops in the department, there is always a story behind those guys.  They boost there pay by making arrests and going to court, adding to their overtime.  The events in question happened inside the house, Gates said the cop refused to give him his badge number and kept asking him to come outside.  Turns out legally, the cop could claim "public nuisance" once outside of the house, even on his own property.  Sounds like the cop knew how to goad the guy.

I would say that 99.99% of the people who know, or know of Skip Gates, feel he would have had to have been sorely tested to act in the manner he did.  The charges have been dropped. 

Oh, and the "yo mama" bit, was he wearing a big afro and a knit cap, too?  Sounds like the cop took a lesson from the playbook of Susan Smith.


So if the cops are so insidious in Cambridge, why haven't the people done anything about it?

Some food for thought...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32085686/?GT1=43001

"I might be kicked out of "The Black scholars club" for saying this, but the truth is that I don't feel sorry for Henry Louis Gates. America is far more capitalist than it is racist, so a distinguished Harvard University Professor like Gates is likely to get more respect than the average White American. The idea that he is somehow the victim of the same racism that sends poor Black men to prison simply doesn't fly with me, and Gates should be careful about appearing to exploit the plight of Black men across America to win his battle of egos with the Cambridge Police Department. At worst, Gates has been a victim of racial profiling by the woman who called the police, as well as the officer who may have interpreted his protests as being more belligerent than they actually were. The same thing happens to Black boys in the school system, who are suspended at astronomical rates for bad behavior. The fact that the charges have now been dropped against Gates shows that a mistake has clearly been made."

This is basically my stance.  I'll have more sympathy for a poor black guy dealing with this than some rich professor, because the poor guy would probably still have charges pending against him.

So if the cops are so insidious in Cambridge, why haven't the people done anything about it?


When they do, you'll be the first to complain about the "pissy activists"!
:P

Obama is throwing down!

Senor Obama is under the impression that the ID was shown and that the police were stupid.  If that really is the case, then it's no wonder the guy flipped out :(

Senor Obama is under the impression that the ID was shown and that the police were stupid.  If that really is the case, then it's no wonder the guy flipped out :(


The I.D. was shown.  Two I.D.s in fact.  Inside the house.  That isn't in dispute and probably why the charges were dropped.

Obama called "Skip Gates" his "friend" and said the Cambridge police acted stupidly. 
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/hello2.gif

What angers me is what this indicates about the state of police versus citizens in this country.

The reason we're hearing about this is because it happened to a renouned scholar and activist in his own home. 

If the cops feel at liberty to mistreat Henry Louis Gates like that, what chance do I stand?  Cops abuse citizens every single day in every city every day and if anybody says boo about it, there's a corps of fascist PR men who jump up and defend "law enforcement."

We're living in a thuggish police state in which cops have grown to believe they have carte blanche to treat you however they damn well please. 

When they do, you'll be the first to complain about the "pissy activists"!
:P


If they act like Gates, yeah.

We're living in a thuggish police state in which cops have grown to believe they have carte blanche to treat you however they damn well please. 


We're also living in a country with more violent crime than any other in the First World.  Naturally, law enforcement tends to get jumpy at times.

We're also living in a country with more violent crime than any other in the First World.  Naturally, law enforcement tends to get jumpy at times.


You've made my point for me.  We are hardly in the "First World" anymore.  You cannot sustain a prosperous democracy with so much wealth in the hands of so few.

You've made my point for me.  We are hardly in the "First World" anymore.  You cannot sustain a prosperous democracy with so much wealth in the hands of so few.


Well, that hasn't happened...  yet.  A few more decades of illegals, skyrocketing healthcare costs, banking scandals, Social Security paying out more than it collects, open door immigration policies with regard to refugees from disease-ridden countries, and maybe another unnecessary war or two, and yeah...  we'll be Second World.

Obama is throwing down!




We must remember that Obama spent a couple of years in Cambridge, at Harvard.  Perhaps his comments come from first hand knowledge.

We must remember that Obama spent a couple of years in Cambridge, at Harvard.  Perhaps his comments come from first hand knowledge.


I thought it was a bold move on his part, the news sites were harping on his remarks soon afterwards.  Gonna be conservative talk fodder for days :P

Anyway, the cops in the vicinity of Harvard University should certainly know who Henry Louis Gates is. 


Why should they know who he is?

The last time I checked, a Professor is not in their "Chain Of Command".  He is just another private citizen.

Whenever I hear of an incident like this, I am reminded of a great skit done by Chris Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2wOxnAiIVs

Why should they know who he is?

The last time I checked, a Professor is not in their "Chain Of Command".  He is just another private citizen.

Whenever I hear of an incident like this, I am reminded of a great skit done by Chris Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2wOxnAiIVs


Because this is Harvard, I guess you would have to be from here to understand.

I thought it was a bold move on his part, the news sites were harping on his remarks soon afterwards.  Gonna be conservative talk fodder for days :P



I know.  I have tuned it all out.  The cop went on a local sports station, yes sports station, to tell his side.  Oh, by the way, he went on the Dennis and Callahan Show, they were the guys who referred to an escaped gorilla as a Metco gorilla.  The Metco program buses minority students out of the city to high schools in high income neighborhoods so they can benefit from a better education.  Not the place to go if you want to promote sincerity.

I know.  I have tuned it all out.  The cop went on a local sports station, yes sports station, to tell his side.  Oh, by the way, he went on the Dennis and Callahan Show, they were the guys who referred to an escaped gorilla as a Metco gorilla.  The Metco program buses minority students out of the city to high schools in high income neighborhoods so they can benefit from a better education.  Not the place to go if you want to promote sincerity.


Not very familiar with the Boston area stuff.  You'd think he'd try to get on CNN or something.

Because this is Harvard, I guess you would have to be from here to understand.


So the Civilian police are supposed to recognize by sight over 1,900 faculty members?  That is not even slightly absurd, that is insane.

And why would I have to understand?  He is a professor.  He is not elected to anything.  He does not hold a public office of importance.  He is just another citizen.  Law enforcement is supposed to treat everybody equally.  And that means Harvard Professors also.

I found the arrest report this evening.  It is interesting reading.

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF

If there's no actual tape or recording of the incident it seems like a case of he said/he said.

Doesn't help that the caller was a white lady either :P

So the Civilian police are supposed to recognize by sight over 1,900 faculty members?  That is not even slightly absurd, that is insane.

And why would I have to understand?  He is a professor.  He is not elected to anything.  He does not hold a public office of importance.  He is just another citizen.  Law enforcement is supposed to treat everybody equally.  And that means Harvard Professors also.

I found the arrest report this evening.  It is interesting reading.

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF


It is obvious from the police reportys that not only are the "white" officers out to get gates, but also the hispanic officers.  Quite a conspiracy going there.

It sounds like Gates needed more material to keep his career going.

So the Civilian police are supposed to recognize by sight over 1,900 faculty members?  That is not even slightly absurd, that is insane.

And why would I have to understand?  He is a professor.  He is not elected to anything.  He does not hold a public office of importance.  He is just another citizen.  Law enforcement is supposed to treat everybody equally.  And that means Harvard Professors also.

I found the arrest report this evening.  It is interesting reading.

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF


No, but Henry Louis Gates is a standout.  Just as anyone in Cambridge would recognized John Kenneth Galbraith and Timothy Leary.  There are some at the University who stand out.  Gates is one.  Beyond that, he had seen 2 forms of ID.  I would say even if he didn't know who he was, the appearance of 2 IDs should have answered the question.

If there's no actual tape or recording of the incident it seems like a case of he said/he said.

Doesn't help that the caller was a white lady either :P


You kinda have to cut the caller some slack.

Gates' house had indeed recently been burgalrized (that is why the door was difficult to open, by his own statements) and there had been other burgaries in the neighborhood.  So when she sees somebody who appears to be forcing a door open, she did the prudent thing and called the fuzz.

They have cut her some slack, but only to a point.  She is a fundraiser for "Harvard" Magazine.  She probably won't be for long.  I feel that you guys don't understand the celebrity that Gates has in the community.  Even if the cop didn't know him, someone in her position really should have been able to recognize Gates, he is 5'7" with a noticeable limp, and walks with a cane.  He is a big draw on the funding circuit for Harvard.  The big buzz is  "how could she be in her position and not know him.

It is obvious from the police reportys that not only are the "white" officers out to get gates, but also the hispanic officers.  Quite a conspiracy going there.

It sounds like Gates needed more material to keep his career going.


In the brotherhood you aren't going to see one step in in public to override another.  Especially someone in Crowleys position.  He is in the top five of officer yearly earnings.  How does a cop make 175,000 a year without connections that can squash anyone around him?  Maybe someone should look into that.

Why should they know who he is?

The last time I checked, a Professor is not in their "Chain Of Command".  He is just another private citizen.

Whenever I hear of an incident like this, I am reminded of a great skit done by Chris Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2wOxnAiIVs


Dave Chappelle

Dave Chappelle routine where white officers
assault a black man in his living room. Proud of their “top-notch”
police work, they conclusively proclaim, “Apparently, this n—-r
broke in and hung up pictures of his family everywhere. An open and
shut case.”

I read the report.  I wonder why, after he saw that 2 IDs, he radioed the Harvard Police for back up?  Two IDs and someone on the telephone not enough?

In the brotherhood you aren't going to see one step in in public to override another.  Especially someone in Crowleys position.  He is in the top five of officer yearly earnings.  How does a cop make 175,000 a year without connections that can squash anyone around him?  Maybe someone should look into that.


Hmmm... sounds awfully similar to the "joke" about "What do you call a wealthy black man in Mississippi?"

Apparently the answer to the "What do you call a highly pad cop?" question is "pig".

Same problem... prejudice... it comes in all colours and towns...

No, but Henry Louis Gates is a standout.  Just as anyone in Cambridge would recognized John Kenneth Galbraith and Timothy Leary.  

I know who Timothy Leary is, but I am not sure if I could recognize him if I saw him.

Then again, I probably would recognize him if I saw him in the streets of Cambridge.  It is not often you see people wandering the streets that have been dead for 12 years.  :o

But it seems to me that all to many academics have a hyper-inflated sense of who they are.  I mean, I have lived in LA all my life, but could not tell you the name of the Dean of USC or UCLA.  And in all the years of living in Boise, I could tell you the name of the Head Coach of the BSU Bronco's football team.  But once again, had no idea who the Dean was.

Most people probably don't give a damn either.  I am enrolled right now at Grantham University, and have no idea who the Dean of that institution is either. 

^ I know what you mean.  I use Joan Massague's reviews and works a lot as references for my own work, and for the longest time I thought Massague was a French Canadian woman.  Imagine my surprise when I found out he was really a Spaniard, and a man ;D

I know who Timothy Leary is, but I am not sure if I could recognize him if I saw him.


Well if you see Timothy Leary, let us all know.  'Cause he's been on the other side of the grass since 1996.

;)

Harold: So what are you in here for?
Tarik: For being black.
Harold: Seriously.
Tarik: I am serious. You wanna know what happened. I was walking out of a Barnes & Noble, and a cop stops me. Evidently, a black guy robbed a storein Newark. I told him, "I haven't even been to Newark in months." So he starts beating me with his gun, telling me to stop resisting arrest.
Harold: Holy sheesh! What'd you do?
Tarik: I kept saying, "I understand I'm under arrest. Now please stop beating me."
Harold: I don't understand how you can be so calm about all this.
Tarik: Look at me. I'm fat, black, can't dance, and I have two gay fathers. People have been messing with me my whole life. I learned a long time ago there's no sense getting all riled up every time a bunch of idiots give you a hard time. In the end, the universe tends to unfold as it should. Plus I have a really large penis. That keeps me happy.

Thought I'd share :D :D

They have cut her some slack, but only to a point.  She is a fundraiser for "Harvard" Magazine.  She probably won't be for long.  I feel that you guys don't understand the celebrity that Gates has in the community.  Even if the cop didn't know him, someone in her position really should have been able to recognize Gates, he is 5'4" with a noticeable limp, and walks with a cane.  He is a big draw on the funding circuit for Harvard.  The big buzz is  "how could she be in her position and not know him.


I know what Gates looks like and he sure doesn't look like somebody who would be busting into somebody's house.  Call it "ageist" profiling if you will!
::)

Plus that neighbor said she saw "two black males with back packs."  Maybe she needs a trip to the eye doctor. 

I know who Timothy Leary is, but I am not sure if I could recognize him if I saw him.

Then again, I probably would recognize him if I saw him in the streets of Cambridge.  It is not often you see people wandering the streets that have been dead for 12 years.  :o



I was giving an example.  Galbraith is dead, too, but everyone with any connection with Cambridge could pick him out anywhere on the street, just as anyone with a connection could pick out Leary and Gates.  I mean 6o year old 5'7" African American with coke bottle glasses and a gimpy leg walking with a cane.  Even without his fame he would be a familiar sight. 

Still, why, if he had seen 2 IDs, why did he need to call for additional backup from the campus police, for a 5'7" 60year old with a gimpy leg.  Or was he really calling because the 2 IDs weren't enough for him.  Maybe he wanted an authority figure to vouch for the man, in his own home.  That would have pissed anyone off.

But it seems to me that all to many academics have a hyper-inflated sense of who they are.  I mean, I have lived in LA all my life, but could not tell you the name of the Dean of USC or UCLA.  And in all the years of living in Boise, I could tell you the name of the Head Coach of the BSU Bronco's football team.  But once again, had no idea who the Dean was.



And LA and Boise aren't Cambridge.  It is a whole different mindset, believe me.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

This is the police report.  It doesn't look very favorable toward Gates.

Whatever the case, it sounds like Gates is just another Ivy Leaguer.  It's no wonder most of the rest of the country can't stand that part of our culture.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

This is the police report.  It doesn't look very favorable toward Gates.

Whatever the case, it sounds like Gates is just another Ivy Leaguer.  It's no wonder most of the rest of the country can't stand that part of our culture.


Like smart people who think about stuff.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

This is the police report.  It doesn't look very favorable toward Gates.



You would expect it to?

A different take on the matter

www.gawker.com/5321278/no-henry-louis-gates-is-not-a-railer-a-brawler-or-a-common-street-walker?skyline=true&s=i 

It asks the same question I ask, and more. Still, why after receiving two IDs, and being comfortable with the fact that this was indeed Henry Louis Gates and that he was in his own home, did Crowley call for back up from Harvard Police?  I will reiterate, there were other officers at the home, and Gates is 60years old, 5'7", coke bottle eyeglasses, and walks with a cane. This cop who is supposed to be a teacher of ways to diffuse situations did the exact opposite. 

You would expect it to?

A different take on the matter

www.gawker.com/5321278/no-henry-louis-gates-is-not-a-railer-a-brawler-or-a-common-street-walker?skyline=true&s=i 

It asks the same question I ask, and more. Still, why after receiving two IDs, and being comfortable with the fact that this was indeed Henry Louis Gates and that he was in his own home, did Crowley call for back up from Harvard Police?  I will reiterate, there were other officers at the home, and Gates is 60years old, 5'7", coke bottle eyeglasses, and walks with a cane. This cop who is supposed to be a teacher of ways to diffuse situations did the exact opposite. 


It is interesting.  In neither Gates' nor Crowley's accounts are there any claims that Crowley used racial epithets or made any reference to Gates' race during the arrest whatsoever.  Yet immediately Gates starts off with the "oppressed black man" schtick.

Maybe Crowley treats all uncooperative people the same way.

Through the lens of Henry Louis Gates' eyes, everything that happens to him is because he is black, I suspect.

This whole story reminds me of when the cops showed up at Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment while he was IN PROGRESS killing one of his victims.  Dahmer met the cops at the door and simply explained the ruckus as a "lover's spat".  The cops then took down the information without any additional follow through or investigation at the site.  You know the rest of that story.

It is interesting.  In neither Gates' nor Crowley's accounts are there any claims that Crowley used racial epithets or made any reference to Gates' race during the arrest whatsoever.  Yet immediately Gates starts off with the "oppressed black man" schtick.

Maybe Crowley treats all uncooperative people the same way.

Through the lens of Henry Louis Gates' eyes, everything that happens to him is because he is black, I suspect.

This whole story reminds me of when the cops showed up at Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment while he was IN PROGRESS killing one of his victims.  Dahmer met the cops at the door and simply explained the ruckus as a "lover's spat".  The cops then took down the information without any additional follow through or investigation at the site.  You know the rest of that story.


Please, I do try to forget that Dahmer thing.  Actually, the kid who was 14, was outside of the apartment in the street.  Dahmer ran out and told them the kid was 19 and it was a lovers spat.  Even though the kid was so drugged he couldn't speak, and a couple of neighbors tried to intervene and get the cops to listen, the cops helped Dahmer bring the kid back to his apartment.  They were terminated, appealed, reinstated, and one Balcerak, went on to be voted President of the Police Patrolmens Association.  Police tend to stand by there own, even in the most egregious situations.

He is a good friend of mine and I'm sorry that he was humiliated in such a way…next question, please. That was all President Obama had to say, but no, he just couldn't leave well enough alone.  The police were just responding to a "crime" being reported...what were they supposed to do? This is not like Rodney King where the police deliberately ran him down with the intent to savagely beat him.

He is a good friend of mine and I'm sorry that he was humiliated in such a way…next question, please. That was all President Obama had to say, but no, he just couldn't leave well enough alone.  The police were just responding to a "crime" being reported...what were they supposed to do? This is not like Rodney King where the police deliberately ran him down with the intent to savagely beat him.


Actually in Rodney's case, the initial arrest was kosher.  He was driving at about 100MPH and was under the influence of drugs or alcohol.  This is as per Rodney's own statements.

The cops crossed the line to illegal behaviour after the initial arrest, when they started to beat the cr@p outta Rodney.

Whatever the case, it sounds like Gates is just another Ivy Leaguer.  It's no wonder most of the rest of the country can't stand that part of our culture.


So wait, most of the country hates the edumucated folk because they're educated?

So wait, most of the country hates the edumucated folk because they're educated?


I think the issue is not so much that they're educated as they're arrogant.  There apparently is an elitist attitude at Harvard that you don't see as much of at Yale, based on my conversations with the Crimsoners and the Yaleys. 

But since I couldn't afford either school and went to Cal, Cal > Ivy League 8)

I think the issue is not so much that they're educated as they're arrogant.  There apparently is an elitist attitude at Harvard that you don't see as much of at Yale, based on my conversations with the Crimsoners and the Yaleys. 

But since I couldn't afford either school and went to Cal, Cal > Ivy League 8)


Bah, I highly doubt that every Ivy Leaguer is like that though.  Besides, I've seen more than my fair share of arrogance from the non-Ivy League "culture", so it's not exclusive to one set of people.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

This is the police report.  It doesn't look very favorable toward Gates.

Whatever the case, it sounds like Gates is just another Ivy Leaguer.  It's no wonder most of the rest of the country can't stand that part of our culture.


Sure.  Anti-intellectualism is rampant in this country and always has been.  Ignorance is bliss, especially for the powers that be.  That's why the worst dictatorships have the lowest literacy rates.

Bah, I highly doubt that every Ivy Leaguer is like that though.  Besides, I've seen more than my fair share of arrogance from the non-Ivy League "culture", so it's not exclusive to one set of people.


Oh yeah.  Stanfurd :D

Sure.  Anti-intellectualism is rampant in this country and always has been.  Ignorance is bliss, especially for the powers that be.  That's why the worst dictatorships have the lowest literacy rates.


I kanz readz gud? ;D

Karma dude.  Karma.


Oh yeah.  Stanfurd :D


You just hate Stanford because they wouldn't take your narrow yellow ass. :D

I kanz readz gud? ;D

Karma dude.  Karma.

You just hate Stanford because they wouldn't take your narrow yellow ass. :D


Wasn't rich enough ;D

Wasn't rich enough ;D


Stanford sucks anyways.

University of Massachusetts - Dorchester(no dorms, strictly commuter school) .  No elitism at Yale   ::)  Skull and Bones that!  Who have you been talking to?

University of Massachusetts - Dorchester(no dorms, strictly commuter school) .  No elitism at Yale  ::)  Skull and Bones that!  Who have you been talking to?


The science folk actually.  There's a cutthroat attitude at Harvard biological sciences that isn't as apparent at Yale.  Different strokes for different departmental folk eh.

I think the issue is not so much that they're educated as they're arrogant.  There apparently is an elitist attitude at Harvard that you don't see as much of at Yale, based on my conversations with the Crimsoners and the Yaleys. 


It is an attitude a lot of people who have gone to or work in "higher education" have in my experience.

When I was working as a computer engineer, it was often frustrating when I would apply for a job, and they would ask where I went to college, and if my degree was in Computer Sciences.  How I never saw the reason to get such a degree, since that trains you to be a programmer.  And I was a Hardware-Networking specialist.

4-8 years of college would have done nothing for my marketable job skills.  But over and over, I would see HR dweebs that insisted that you could not do that job without a degree.

And when I was still single, I would occasionally meet somebody, and the question often came up "Where did you go to college?"  And at least 2 flat out told me they do not date people who did not go to college, because they do not date people "Stupid people."

And after seeing more then a few "dumb as dirt" second lieutenants, is it any wonder I do not think much of those with degrees?  My uncle has one, and has been a bum his entire life.  But he has a degree, so I guess that makes him a smart bum.

It is an attitude a lot of people who have gone to or work in "higher education" have in my experience.

When I was working as a computer engineer, it was often frustrating when I would apply for a job, and they would ask where I went to college, and if my degree was in Computer Sciences.  How I never saw the reason to get such a degree, since that trains you to be a programmer.  And I was a Hardware-Networking specialist.

4-8 years of college would have done nothing for my marketable job skills.  But over and over, I would see HR dweebs that insisted that you could not do that job without a degree.

And when I was still single, I would occasionally meet somebody, and the question often came up "Where did you go to college?"  And at least 2 flat out told me they do not date people who did not go to college, because they do not date people "Stupid people."

And after seeing more then a few "dumb as dirt" second lieutenants, is it any wonder I do not think much of those with degrees?  My uncle has one, and has been a bum his entire life.  But he has a degree, so I guess that makes him a smart bum.


So because a few people you know are arrogant pricks about their higher education, that means that everyone is?

Wow, this bashing of higher education is really disheartening to read when I'm considering going back to college.  Not because I want to be arrogant or anything, but because I actually want to engage my mind in something interesting.  I guess I should trash that idea so I fit in with the masses and don't come across as some elitist biznatch because I want to study Physics.

Wasn't rich enough ;D



Stanford sucks anyways.


Jess, once Rice graduates from Chicago, he'll be making so much money you'll be wearing horse turds as big as diamonds diamonds as big as horse turds.  ;)

Jess, once Rice graduates from Chicago, he'll be making so much money you'll be wearing horse turds as big as diamonds diamonds as big as horse turds.  ;)


Yeah right :D :D  Academics don't make $ :P

Jess, once Rice graduates from Chicago, he'll be making so much money you'll be wearing horse turds as big as diamonds diamonds as big as horse turds.   ;)


;D


Yeah right :D :D  Academics don't make $ :P


But you're doing good, so that's all that matters. :)

And I only say Stanford sucks because their hospital almost killed my mom. :P

Yeah right :D :D  Academics don't make $ :P


I don't know about that.  My accounting prof at Chicago was the late, great Sidney Davidson.  He donated $500,000 to the school more than once.  Beaucoup dinero.

I don't know about that.  My accounting prof at Chicago was the late, great Sidney Davidson.  He donated $500,000 to the school more than once.   Beaucoup dinero.


I'd be happy if Rice discovers some unknown that brings down cancer.

Then again, he'd make the bucks from that, I'm sure....

I'd be happy if Rice discovers some unknown that brings down cancer.

Then again, he'd make the bucks from that, I'm sure....


Someone will be making $ then.  Probably not me though :(

Arrested?  For trying to enter your own house, after being locked out?

::)

If he was white, not only would the cops help him, get into his house, but it also be a non issue.

Something doesn't sound right, here.

::)

Arrested?  For trying to enter your own house, after being locked out?

::)

If he was white, not only would the cops help him, get into his house, but it also be a non issue.

Something doesn't sound right, here.

::)


If a white guy was getting loud and obnoxious with the cops, they'd hand him his ass in a hat too.

Gates was not arrested for breaking in to his house.  He was arrested for disorderly conduct.  By the way, I saw some pictures taken as Gates was being led from his house, and one of the officers present was a black guy.

If a white guy was getting loud and obnoxious with the cops, they'd hand him his ass in a hat too.

Gates was not arrested for breaking in to his house.  He was arrested for disorderly conduct.  By the way, I saw some pictures taken as Gates was being led from his house, and one of the officers present was a black guy.


Did not know that.

I was reading that Obama had to apologize and qualify his remarks.  I'm in agreement that both parties overreacted.

I don't know about that.  My accounting prof at Chicago was the late, great Sidney Davidson.  He donated $500,000 to the school more than once.   Beaucoup dinero.


Well, no everyone is a Sidney Davidson, for sure.


Did not know that.

I was reading that Obama had to apologize and qualify his remarks.  I'm in agreement that both parties overreacted.


He qualified, but did not apologize.  He did say that both parties overreacted, that is for sure.  Problem is when a private citizen overreacts it doesn't carry the consequences that the overreaction of a police officer. 

Arrested?  For trying to enter your own house, after being locked out?

::)

If he was white, not only would the cops help him, get into his house, but it also be a non issue.

Something doesn't sound right, here.

::)


He was already in the house, he had let himself in the back door with a key and was talking on the phone.  Had shown the officer 2 pieces of identification.

If a white guy was getting loud and obnoxious with the cops, they'd hand him his ass in a hat too.

Gates was not arrested for breaking in to his house.  He was arrested for disorderly conduct.  By the way, I saw some pictures taken as Gates was being led from his house, and one of the officers present was a black guy.


He was a black guy, he was a black cop. 

It is an attitude a lot of people who have gone to or work in "higher education" have in my experience.

When I was working as a computer engineer, it was often frustrating when I would apply for a job, and they would ask where I went to college, and if my degree was in Computer Sciences.  How I never saw the reason to get such a degree, since that trains you to be a programmer.  And I was a Hardware-Networking specialist.

4-8 years of college would have done nothing for my marketable job skills.  But over and over, I would see HR dweebs that insisted that you could not do that job without a degree.

And when I was still single, I would occasionally meet somebody, and the question often came up "Where did you go to college?"  And at least 2 flat out told me they do not date people who did not go to college, because they do not date people "Stupid people."

And after seeing more then a few "dumb as dirt" second lieutenants, is it any wonder I do not think much of those with degrees?  My uncle has one, and has been a bum his entire life.  But he has a degree, so I guess that makes him a smart bum.


Tell her she's in luck, 'coz you don't date stoopid people nayther! 

I was just talking about HR dweebs today.  They get where they are because they can kiss ass, take orders, and smile-smile-smile at the boss.  Now you're across the desk from them, and you better show you can do the same on the double-quick!  All it makes me wanna do is channel Larry Flynt...take a dump in my own drawers and give 'em the finger!
::)

If a white guy was getting loud and obnoxious with the cops, they'd hand him his ass in a hat too.

I don't know from personal experience.  "Loud and obnoxious" is for frat boys and cops!  Anyway, I said at the outset, Gates would have been better served by maintaining a calm demeanor (no matter how heartsick it made him).  The pigs LOVE IT when you lose your temper.  They live for that sh*t!  If you get into a conflict with piggies at the scene, you're always gonna lose; you kick it up one notch, they'll kick it up ten!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/oink.gif

Gates was not arrested for breaking in to his house.  He was arrested for disorderly conduct.  By the way, I saw some pictures taken as Gates was being led from his house, and one of the officers present was a black guy.


None of this constitutes a crime when one is on one's own property.  And WTF happened to all those twitchy Dale Gribble "Libertarians" anyway?  When jackbooted thugs bully a man in his own house and abduct him from his property with no warrant, I thought Libertarians were supposed to be enraged.  Deafening silence.  I guess the Libertarians don't mind so much when it happens to a Black intellectual.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/znaika.gif

He was a black guy, he was a black cop. 


Shouldn't this kinda cancel out?  ???

Shouldn't this kinda cancel out?  ???



My cousin was a black guy, and a black cop, in Boston.  You are a cop first.  When ranks close all cops, despite whatever infighting may be done in the station house, are cops together.

None of this constitutes a crime when one is on one's own property.  And WTF happened to all those twitchy Dale Gribble "Libertarians" anyway?  When jackbooted thugs bully a man in his own house and abduct him from his property with no warrant, I thought Libertarians were supposed to be enraged.  Deafening silence.  I guess the Libertarians don't mind so much when it happens to a Black intellectual.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/znaika.gif



EXACTLY!  Where are the defenders of the sanctity of ones own home?  He was arrested for his actions inside his own home, not for his actions outside, and did not, at any time leave his own property, not even his own porch, and did not threaten or pose any kind of a menace to anyone.  What he did do was give lip to a cop, inside his own home.  That is it.

So because a few people you know are arrogant pricks about their higher education, that means that everyone is?


Of course not.  And I never intended to imply that it was.

But it can't be denied that there is a percentage that do come out like that.  We see them all the time on the talk shows, writing books that are praised in the New York Times.  Becomming some kind of Government Czar.  Simply because they managed to live through 4+ years of academic boot camp.

Ward Churchill is one of those that comes to mind.

But for every 1 like that I meet, I meet hundreds that are not that way at all.  But like most everybody else, it is the arrogant pricks that remain in my memory.  These are the ones that equte school with intelligence, and that the lack of such equates stupidity.

When I first got to my unit a year and a half ago, I was a Private First Class (E-3).  And within 2 weeks, I was placed as "Assistant Squad Leader" to a Specialist (E-4).  Now this may sound normal, in reality I was his "Babysitter".

The Army allows people to enter as an E-4 if they have 4 years of college.  This guy had a degree in Criminology from Columbia University in NYC, and was dumber then a bag of hardened cement.  When given the simplest task, he would be absolutely clueless on how to accomplish it.  He would either ignore the task, or obsess over minute things that were of no importance.  Most of the time, he just mumbled how things would not work that way in the "real world".

Even though technnically he was my "Superior", I was really the one that ran the squad.  I did the soldier counseling, I wrote up the award requests.  I wrote up all the requests for training assignments and handled the training of the soldiers in "his" squad.  Even the newest Private had more of an idea what was happening then this Specialist with 2 years experience.

And 5 months later when I got my promotion, that very day his squad was handed over to me.  He was my "Assistant", and he constantly complained about it.  When we deployed to the Middle-East, we left him behind counting MREs in a warehouse.

They did try to send him to a new unit, they sent him back an hour later.  Seems that when he checked in, he went right to the CO and told them he should be a Squad Leader because of his Degree.  The Captain told him to get out of her office and return to my unit.  The last I heard he is still counting MREs in a warehouse over and over again.  And for some reason the numbers change every day, even though they are never used.

One of the things I keep wondering in all of this.

The original call to the Police came from one of his neighbors.  What does that say when his neighbor does not even know who he is, let alone that it is his own house.  Now I may not know all of my neighbors by name, but I have a decent idea what they look like.

And while I have reported break-ins in the past, none of them was on a neighbor.

Of course not.  And I never intended to imply that it was.

But it can't be denied that there is a percentage that do come out like that.  We see them all the time on the talk shows, writing books that are praised in the New York Times.  Becomming some kind of Government Czar.  Simply because they managed to live through 4+ years of academic boot camp.


'Shroom, I know what ya mean.  U used to run a technical improvement team on the steel mill floor.  Most of my gang were degreed engineers.  But there was this guy in operations, Rudy, who was just what we needed.  He really knew his stuff, from "school of hard knocks".  So I put in a requisition to get him into our department.

One of our executives had a hissy fit.  "Operations Technology is no place for non-degreed people".  Problem was, I knew more than he did.  As it turns out, about 23 years prior, the "executive" had visited our company to learn how to make one of our products which at the time was very unique.  His teacher?  Rudy... but the executive had forgotten that.

So I arranged in the company Staff Meeting for this information to "leak out" and the executive had to keep his mouth shut from that time on!  ;D

Rudy was the best guy on my team.  And even though he was 67 years old at the time, he was also the youngest-minded.  :)

You would expect it to?

A different take on the matter

www.gawker.com/5321278/no-henry-louis-gates-is-not-a-railer-a-brawler-or-a-common-street-walker?skyline=true&s=i 

It asks the same question I ask, and more. Still, why after receiving two IDs, and being comfortable with the fact that this was indeed Henry Louis Gates and that he was in his own home, did Crowley call for back up from Harvard Police?  I will reiterate, there were other officers at the home, and Gates is 60years old, 5'7", coke bottle eyeglasses, and walks with a cane. This cop who is supposed to be a teacher of ways to diffuse situations did the exact opposite. 


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8163051&page=1

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/24/national/main5185636.shtml

So basically, this cop who arrested Gates has gotten a semi-apology from Obama and the backing of other cops of multiple races in his department.

This means that you have to believe that Obama and the entire department of this cop are in on a conspiracy to soil Gates's reputation.  By what seems to be more than just a coincidence, Gates is going to be doing a documentary on profiling shortly.

Personally, at this point, I think Gates has become the next Jesse Jackson.  The sad thing is...  he'll get the support of a lot of liberals and blacks without them ever really examining this situation closer.

This means that you have to believe that Obama and the entire department of this cop are in on a conspiracy to soil Gates's reputation. 



::)

No, you are overstating what I am trying to say.  It doesn't matter who the person was.  Once the cop had seen the 2 IDs proving that the person who "broke in" was in fact the owner, he should have left.  The manner and demeanor of the person doesn't matter in his own home, and as a matter of fact as long as Gates stayed in the house the officer couldn't arrest him unless he physically assaulted him.  One of the reasons for dropping the charges was the fact that the man was on his own property.  Instead, the cop saw the 2 IDs, (and even admits that he realized who Gates was before he saw the IDs), then called for additional backup information from the Harvard University Campus Police.  People are still asking what that was all about.  Both sides including the police admit that both sides overreacted, but the consequences of a police officer overreacting, and a private citizen overreacting have very different outcomes. 

As Max said, where are the civil libertarians in all this.  They of all people should be jumping up and down about a man being arrested for the heinous crime of giving lip to a cop, in his own house.

::)

No, you are overstating what I am trying to say.  It doesn't matter who the person was.  Once the cop had seen the 2 IDs proving that the person who "broke in" was in fact the owner, he should have left.  The manner and demeanor of the person doesn't matter in his own home, and as a matter of fact as long as Gates stayed in the house the officer couldn't arrest him unless he physically assaulted him.  One of the reasons for dropping the charges was the fact that the man was on his own property.  Instead, the cop saw the 2 IDs, (and even admits that he realized who Gates was before he saw the IDs), then called for additional backup information from the Harvard University Campus Police.  People are still asking what that was all about.  Both sides including the police admit that both sides overreacted, but the consequences of a police officer overreacting, and a private citizen overreacting have very different outcomes. 

Where does the cop admit that he knew who Gates was?

As Max said, where are the civil libertarians in all this.  They of all people should be jumping up and down about a man being arrested for the heinous crime of giving lip to a cop, in his own house.


Fair point, but I'm moderately civil libertarian.  In general, I distrust authority and prefer to stand up for individuals, but on the other hand, I also like to see people get taken down a notch from their self-important attitudes.  Gates seems a bit full of himself.

Where does the cop admit that he knew who Gates was?



Local news.  He said that he did after a couple of moments did realize who Gates was.


Fair point, but I'm moderately civil libertarian.  In general, I distrust authority and prefer to stand up for individuals, but on the other hand, I also like to see people get taken down a notch from their self-important attitudes.  Gates seems a bit full of himself.



Just because you like seeing someone taken down a peg doesn't justify the action. If it isn't right for it to happen to you, it isn't right for it to happen to anyone.  I would bet there are people who would get a charge out of something like this happening to you, wouldn't make it right, would it?  And if it did I would back you up just as I back up Gates in this matter.  As a matter of fact, Gates would probably back you up, too.

Everyone is waiting for the recorded calls.  All the transmissions were recorded, but the police say that it is still an active investigation and as long as it is they aren't required to release the calls.  They went so far as to say they may not release the actual recordings, they may just release a transcript instead.  Now that is just stupid.  The longer it takes the more suspicious people will be about the factual content. 

I envision that any records may be tainted by the time they are released...

One of the things I keep wondering in all of this.

The original call to the Police came from one of his neighbors.  What does that say when his neighbor does not even know who he is, let alone that it is his own house.  Now I may not know all of my neighbors by name, but I have a decent idea what they look like.

And while I have reported break-ins in the past, none of them was on a neighbor.


What do YOU think it says?

::)

No, you are overstating what I am trying to say.  It doesn't matter who the person was.  Once the cop had seen the 2 IDs proving that the person who "broke in" was in fact the owner, he should have left. 


Actually, I would have demanded more information, even if he had 10 IDs, and his name in a big neon sign in the front yard.

Why?  Well, breaking into your own home is not a normal event.  And I would want to know why it was nessicary for that individual to do so.  I would also request a quick background check and court record check in addition.

And if you really think about it, it should be very obvious why this would be.  And it is the difference between good cops and bad cops.  The good ones look for other issues and factors, the bad ones simply bow down to others who are loud and obnoxious, and do not look at real problems, real, imagined, or potential.

Actually, I would have demanded more information, even if he had 10 IDs, and his name in a big neon sign in the front yard.

Why?  Well, breaking into your own home is not a normal event.  And I would want to know why it was nessicary for that individual to do so.  I would also request a quick background check and court record check in addition.

And if you really think about it, it should be very obvious why this would be.  And it is the difference between good cops and bad cops.  The good ones look for other issues and factors, the bad ones simply bow down to others who are loud and obnoxious, and do not look at real problems, real, imagined, or potential.


"Breaking in" has criminal connotations.  Gates was not "breaking in."  He was gaining access to his own property.  A good cop would recognize that and say good night...even if the guy was being obnoxious.

About the neighbor, unfortunately, it seems more common than not for neighbors not to know one another, and perhaps not even be sure what they look like.  The house right across the street from me changes renters fairly frequently.  I couldn't tell you what the current occupants even look like.  America values mobility and privacy over community and familiarity.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
::)

What do YOU think it says?


Hard to say, but several potentials come to mind.

The neighbor is a hermit, and never goes out of her house long enough to see what her neighbors look like.

Prof. Gates is never seen out of his house by his neighbors.

The neighbor does not like Prof. Gates.

The neighbor does not like Prof. Gates, and simply wanted to see him get hastled

There was something different in the appearance of him and/or the other person that made the neighbor suspicious.

To me, this is not like a lot of people are trying to make it out to be.  While I admit that there are incidents of DWB in this country, this incident was reported to law enforcement by a private citizen and neighbor of Prof. Gates.  It is not like the cops were driving down the street and saw him and went "Hey, that is a really nice house for a black man to live in.  We should go see what in the heck he is doing there."

"Breaking in" has criminal connotations.  Gates was not "breaking in."  He was gaining access to his own property.  A good cop would recognize that and say good night...even if the guy was being obnoxious.


And I insist a good cop would do a little bit of checking first, to see why he was breaking into his own house.  He would not just say "Oh yes, this is your own house" and drive away.

And I insist a good cop would do a little bit of checking first, to see why he was breaking into his own house.  He would not just say "Oh yes, this is your own house" and drive away.


You said even if he presented "10 forms of idea," you'd still ask questions.  What would you ask him?  Would you ask him to fetch the deed and the utility bills?  Would you ask him why a black guy has a such a nice house? 
???

You said even if he presented "10 forms of idea," you'd still ask questions.  What would you ask him?  Would you ask him to fetch the deed and the utility bills?  Would you ask him why a black guy has a such a nice house? 
???


First one screams immediatly to mind:

"Do you have a Domestic Violence Restraining Order?"

"Are you and your significant other having relationship issues?"

Those 2 come immediately to mind.  Any good cop should check into that if they find an individual trying to break into their own house.

Just a page or so back, people here were blasting the cops that initially responded to an incident with Jeff Dahmer.  This is where I ask people to be consistant.  YOu demand more investigation into one incident that looks suspicious, but then turn right around and demand that an officer simply turn and walk away when an individual shows an ID that states that at one time they lived there.

With so many incidents of stalking, domestic violence, even murder of former partners, it is unforgiveable to me that a law enforcement officer would simply take the word of the person in question that there is nothing else going on.

Granted, it may simply have been just as what happened:  a guy who was unable to open his door without force.

However, it may have been a case of the guy being ordered to leave his house after beating his spouse, and was under a Domestic Violence Restraining Order.  He still would have had multiple IDs showing that as his residence.  But a quick check with higher authority would have shown him in violation of that restraining order, and may have helped prevent a murder or murder-suicide.

And routine police procedure in these events is to remove the "person of interest" into an observable location while they are being checked out.  This is for several reasons, not the lest is the protection of the officer.  For all they know, he is there to kill his wife, and is going to pull out a gun once they are away.

Why?  Well, breaking into your own home is not a normal event.  And I would want to know why it was necessary for that individual to do so.  I would also request a quick background check and court record check in addition.



Well then you haven't been paying attention.  His front door was jammed, he let himself in the back door with a key, the limo driver helped him unjam the front door.  When the cop entered the premises Gates was on the phone calling for someone to come out and fix the door.  There was never any call to ascertain if there was a problem with domestic abuse, the issue never came up before, during, or after.  The house was never searched for any supposed victims. So maybe you would have requested a background check, but in this case it wasn't deemed necessary.

It would have been great to have access to the tapes of the transmissions between the cop and others, but, as I said, at this point the department is refusing to issue the tapes, and has gone as far as saying they may only release their own transcriptions of the tapes.  Big question mark on that.  They will never be able to get past the suspicion that that arouses.

Just because you like seeing someone taken down a peg doesn't justify the action. If it isn't right for it to happen to you, it isn't right for it to happen to anyone.  I would bet there are people who would get a charge out of something like this happening to you, wouldn't make it right, would it?  And if it did I would back you up just as I back up Gates in this matter.  As a matter of fact, Gates would probably back you up, too.

Everyone is waiting for the recorded calls.  All the transmissions were recorded, but the police say that it is still an active investigation and as long as it is they aren't required to release the calls.  They went so far as to say they may not release the actual recordings, they may just release a transcript instead.  Now that is just stupid.  The longer it takes the more suspicious people will be about the factual content. 


I appreciate the consistency in your approach; however, I'll paraphrase what someone at another forum said about this.

The only true racial profiling that happened involved Gates's neighbor calling the police in the first place. She should've known that she lived next door to a black man.

When an officer arrives at the scene of a reported burglary, his/her first duty is making sure that the people he/she finds there have a right to be there. That means asking for ID. The fact that Gates was black had nothing to do with it (except of course that the neighbor had said the "burglars" were black).

Gates had probably been having a bad day up to that point. He'd just come home from a long trip, and found his door jammed. He'd had to break into his own home. I get that. But verbally abusing a police officer is just stupid. Making a public scene in the process is even dumber.

On the other hand, police officers are trained in ways to de-escalate situations. If what you say is true about this officer, he knew who Gates was. Arresting someone like that on a minor charge in a racially tense situation was pretty stupid too.

Nevertheless, Gates's supporters often seem to be making this more into a race issue than it really was.  This was about one man's ego vs. another.

Sadly, even Obama fell prey to the pettiness of this debacle.

As a final note, the reason why I still find this more humorous than anything else is that maybe Gates will tone down his ego some as a result of it.  Because he made this into a race thing shows that he has some personal issues.  On the other hand, hopefully, this will also tone down the officer's ego as well.  So again, having someone taken down a notch is necessary sometimes.  The charges were dropped, so no harm no foul.

The only true racial profiling that happened involved Gates's neighbor calling the police in the first place. She should've known that she lived next door to a black man.


Actually, the caller did not know the race of the people involved, and did not even mention it according to recent reports:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/07/27/gates_caller_didnt_cite_race_police_say/


There was never any call to ascertain if there was a problem with domestic abuse, the issue never came up before, during, or after.  The house was never searched for any supposed victims. So maybe you would have requested a background check, but in this case it wasn't deemed necessary.


It does not matter if it is "deemed necessary" or not, it should still be done.  And how many times have we heard of cases where this was not done, with tragic results?

I come from a security/law enforcement background.  And as such, I would treat an incident as if it was the "worst possible case".  And from everything I have read, the police were handling this as they should.  Arrice at scene.  Ascertain what is happening.  Have any interested individuals leave the premises while they call in to higher authority for verification and record checks.  Apologize for the trouble and go on their way.

To me it sounds like everything broke down at step 2.  When asked to step outside, Prof. Gates became argumentative.  Who cares that it is his house?  The police are only doing their job, and should be treated respectfully unless they overstep their bounds.

Let's take this as if it is a worst case scenario.  Say it was Prof. Smith, and he was mentally unstable, and had a restraining order against him by his spouse.  The police arrive after he broke in, and he has a pistol in the backpack he had with him.  His intent was to wait for his wife to return home and harm her in some way.  But with the police here, he knows the "gig is up". 

Realizing he will go to jail once they discover he violated a restraining order, he does something normal for a controlling personality, he orders the police out of the home, even showing ID that shows that it was his home before the seperation.

Now here it can go 2 ways.  The police can take him at face value, and leave.  He then simply lays in wait, killing his spouse when she walks in the door.  Then we would be reading on how horrible the police were, letting somebody with a restraining order remain in the house of his spouse, leading to her death.  And if there were children, their deaths as well.  All to often, these kind of cases lead to multiple-murders and a suicide.

Or they leave him inside while they go out and check their computers for wants, warrants, and court orders.  Instead of having him step outside and give him a quick pat-down, they leave him inside.  Realizing he has a restraining order, they now have a potential barricade situation.

Now luckily, things were not like that.  But the potential was there.  And that is why police have procedures to follow.  Officers that do not follow procedures all to often end up being statistics, and lessons in police accademies as to why procedures should be followed.

I could put in a slew of links to cases where people violated restraining orders and killed their spouses in their homes, but we all know about this happening all to often.  I will simply post one such incident, from a few weeks ago in Springfield.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/07/police_arrest_benjamin_sanchez.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITl55WTyIRY

As the above 911 call shows, the only mentioning of race involved the Hispanic driver of Gates being identified by the caller.  The caller doesn't even seem that concerned about the possible break-in, but she states that she's calling to comfort the older neighbor of Gates.

So, as far as I can see, this was clearly not a case of profiling, unless you count what the caller says about the driver being Hispanic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITl55WTyIRY

As the above 911 call shows, the only mentioning of race involved the Hispanic driver of Gates being identified by the caller.  The caller doesn't even seem that concerned about the possible break-in, but she states that she's calling to comfort the older neighbor of Gates.

So, as far as I can see, this was clearly not a case of profiling, unless you count what the caller says about the driver being Hispanic.


How else are you supposed to identify the guy unless you say "he looks Hispanic"?  ???

How else are you supposed to identify the guy unless you say "he looks Hispanic"?  ???




You mean like Ricardo Montalban?  Or like Freddie prinze ?

You mean like Ricardo Montalban?  Or like Freddie prinze ?



:D :D

Is there like a 3rd party that compiled all the records up to now?  Because it still smells of a "he said/he said" situation :P

First one screams immediatly to mind:

"Do you have a Domestic Violence Restraining Order?"

"Are you and your significant other having relationship issues?"

Those 2 come immediately to mind.  Any good cop should check into that if they find an individual trying to break into their own house.

Just a page or so back, people here were blasting the cops that initially responded to an incident with Jeff Dahmer.  This is where I ask people to be consistant.  YOu demand more investigation into one incident that looks suspicious, but then turn right around and demand that an officer simply turn and walk away when an individual shows an ID that states that at one time they lived there.

With so many incidents of stalking, domestic violence, even murder of former partners, it is unforgiveable to me that a law enforcement officer would simply take the word of the person in question that there is nothing else going on.

Granted, it may simply have been just as what happened:  a guy who was unable to open his door without force.

However, it may have been a case of the guy being ordered to leave his house after beating his spouse, and was under a Domestic Violence Restraining Order.  He still would have had multiple IDs showing that as his residence.  But a quick check with higher authority would have shown him in violation of that restraining order, and may have helped prevent a murder or murder-suicide.

And routine police procedure in these events is to remove the "person of interest" into an observable location while they are being checked out.  This is for several reasons, not the lest is the protection of the officer.  For all they know, he is there to kill his wife, and is going to pull out a gun once they are away.


You know, Mushroom, you're onto something there.  For every innocent homeowner who shouldering open his own back door, there are 100,000 wife beating child molesters with keys to the front door.  Soooo...perhaps the cops should drop by all our houses every night just to make sure everything's okay.  Catch a lot of bad guys that way, and if you're a good guy, you've got nothing to fear from the local constabulary right? Right.

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/jerk.gif

How else are you supposed to identify the guy unless you say "he looks Hispanic"?  ???




Agreed.

The caller said, on the recorded call, she thought one looked Hispanic.  When Crowley wrote up the report he said she said that there were 2 black males with backpacks, seems as if our profiling teacher was profiling.

Beyond that, in the era of computers, it would have taken seconds for the police to establish the name of the owner of the property.  Armed with that Crowley could have knocked on the door "Excuse me, Professor Gates?  We received a call about a possible break-in"  Everything could have gone so much smoother.

An edited transcript of the 911 call that began the Gates affair.

Dispatcher: Tell me exactly what happened

Caller: Umm, I don’t know what’s happening. I just have an elder woman, uh, standing here and she had noticed two gentlemen trying to get in a house at that number, 17 Ware St., and they kind of had to barge in. And they broke the screen door and they finally got in and when I had looked, I went further, closer to the house a little bit, after the gentlemen were already in the house, I noticed two suitcases So I’m not sure if these are two individuals who actually work there, I mean who live there.

Dispatcher: You think they might’ve been breaking...

Caller: I don’t know, ‘cause I have no idea, I just noticed...

Dispatcher: So you think the possibility might have been there or...? What do you mean by barged in? Did they kick the door in or...?

Caller: Umm, no they were pushing the door in, like uhhh, ummm, like the screen part of the front door was kind of like cut.

Dispatcher: How did they open the door itself, the lock?

Caller: I didn’t see a key or anything ‘cause I was a little bit away from the door but I did notice that they pushed their...

Dispatcher: And what did the suitcases have to do with anything?

Caller: I don’t know. I’m just saying that’s what I saw. I just

Dispatcher: Do you know what apartment they broke into?

Caller: No, just the first floor. I don’t even think that it’s an apartment. It’s 17 Ware St. It’s a house. It’s a yellow house. Number 17. I don’t know if they live there and they just had a hard time with their key, but I did notice that they had to use their shoulder to try to barge in and they got in. I don’t know if they had a key or not ‘cause I couldn’t see from my angle. But you know when I looked a little closely that’s when I saw...

Dispatcher: (inaudible) black or Hispanic? Are they still in the house?

Caller: They’re still in the house I believe, yeah.

Dispatcher: Are they white, black or Hispanic?

Caller: Umm, well there were two larger men, one looked kind of Hispanic, but I’m not really sure. And the other one entered and I didn’t see what he looked like at all. I just saw it from a distance and this older woman was worried, thinking someone’s breaking in someone’s house, they’ve been barging in, and she interrupted me, and that’s when I had noticed. Otherwise, I probably wouldn’t have noticed it at all, to be honest with you. So I was just calling ‘cause she was a concerned neighbor, I guess.....