Surprising nobody, but it's now official.

GM files for bankruptcy at 8:00 AM, June 1, 2009.

American Taxpayers: 60% for $30B cash
Canadian Taxpayers: 12% for $9.5B cash
UAW: 17.5% in exchange for $VEBA restructuring
Bondholders: 10%, after getting a $big haircut on their bonds

Full details available here.

Surprising nobody, but it's now official.

American Taxpayers: 60% for $30B cash



That's the average book value of a GM car once the owner has paid off the loan!
:P

As usual, they're gonna stick it to the little guy (the pensioners) give execs the golden parachute and once they've restructured, they'll go right back to making the same crap!  And anyone who asks why the government didn't force them to change their fleet to hybrids and such, they'll have the temerity to pull the "free market" argument out of their kiesters once again!

GM really needs to be chopped up and sold piecemeal.  Forget this bailout crap...

That's the average book value of a GM car once the owner has paid off the loan!
:P

As usual, they're gonna stick it to the little guy (the pensioners) give execs the golden parachute and once they've restructured, they'll go right back to making the same crap!  And anyone who asks why the government didn't force them to change their fleet to hybrids and such, they'll have the temerity to pull the "free market" argument out of their kiesters once again!



I agree that the golden parachutes should be jettisoned, no doubt about that.  Note that bankruptcy law allows for GM to reject the golden parachutes, if the O'bama car task force has the 'nards to do it.  I certainly would.

But the "little guy" has been also sucking at the teat of GM for decades, getting paid wages that most people only dream of, and even when laid off pulling down 85%-95% of wages for doing nothing.

The "little guy" should get down on his knees and thank the Lord that he has it so good.  Without the government intervention he'd be SOL for sure.  Uncle Sam never bailed out the steel mills, or any other company that went belly up.  But the car companies got kid-glove treatment.

"Don't cry for me Argentina..."

I agree that the golden parachutes should be jettisoned, no doubt about that.  Note that bankruptcy law allows for GM to reject the golden parachutes, if the O'bama car task force has the 'nards to do it.  I certainly would.

But the "little guy" has been also sucking at the teat of GM for decades, getting paid wages that most people only dream of, and even when laid off pulling down 85%-95% of wages for doing nothing.

The "little guy" should get down on his knees and thank the Lord that he has it so good.  Without the government intervention he'd be SOL for sure.  Uncle Sam never bailed out the steel mills, or any other company that went belly up.  But the car companies got kid-glove treatment.

"Don't cry for me Argentina..."


I speak as a Union man when I say this -

I hold very little in the way of solidarity like feelings for the UAW. When the guy tightening lug nuts in Champaigne; IL is pulling down $65,000 a year (not conjecture, there was a big article in the Post-Dispatch - a decidedly left leaning paper may I add - about the UAW in the bi-state area) and getting a full benefits package, there's something going a little wrong. Union Labor is 100% necessary, without it, many of us would be in the poor house, but tightening lug nuts, come on man!

GM survived through WWII because FDR told them to stop making cars and make airplanes & airplane parts. I think they should do just that-at least for a while. 

A question for everyone: How would you finish this sentence? If it was up to you, tell them to stop making cars and make______.

I'll answer later.



Cat

I speak as a Union man when I say this -

I hold very little in the way of solidarity like feelings for the UAW. When the guy tightening lug nuts in Champaigne; IL is pulling down $65,000 a year (not conjecture, there was a big article in the Post-Dispatch - a decidedly left leaning paper may I add - about the UAW in the bi-state area) and getting a full benefits package, there's something going a little wrong. Union Labor is 100% necessary, without it, many of us would be in the poor house, but tightening lug nuts, come on man!


To this I say, So what.  I am tried of workers looking at other workers and deciding that it doesn't matter what they do they shouldn't be eligible for certain pay or benefits.  I think everyone should be making that kind of money and benefits as long as they show up and do the job.  What about trust funders who never work a day in their lives, but get all kinds of concessions on their capital gains, and go out to dinner and deduct them as "business expenses".  They are the people who make me irate. Them and the greedy, incompetent, upper management.  They are the ones that have brought us to this, but I don't see them crying in their martinis.  The tax shelters that they built for themselves will withstand all this, not so Joe Lug Nut.

To this I say, So what.  I am tried of workers looking at other workers and deciding that it doesn't matter what they do they shouldn't be eligible for certain pay or benefits.  I think everyone should be making that kind of money and benefits as long as they show up and do the job.  What about trust funders who never work a day in their lives, but get all kinds of concessions on their capital gains, and go out to dinner and deduct them as "business expenses".   They are the people who make me irate. Them and the greedy, incompetent, upper management.  They are the ones that have brought us to this, but I don't see them crying in their martinis.  The tax shelters that they built for themselves will withstand all this, not so Joe Lug Nut.


That's all well and true. Me and Al were discussing this a few weeks ago and worked out that if one Yellow/Roadway exec hadn't got his bonus this year (after losing millions) almost 100 employees could stay on.

I just make the point that the contract GM had with the UAW had them hamstrung. With the IATSE, we've gone on strike a couple of times over fair concessions from things such as DVD sales and merchandising, but to the best of my knowledge, across the country, our contracts with individual buildings and companies are structured to ensure that they benefit both sides. As such, we receive fair compensation and they can afford to attract productions and events that ensure we have further work.

I am bumping this up because NO ONE has answered my question.  >:( >:( >:(



GM survived through WWII because FDR told them to stop making cars and make airplanes & airplane parts. I think they should do just that-at least for a while. 

A question for everyone: How would you finish this sentence? If it was up to you, tell them to stop making cars and make______.

I'll answer later.



Well? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?



Cat

GM survived through WWII because FDR told them to stop making cars and make airplanes & airplane parts. I think they should do just that-at least for a while. 

A question for everyone: How would you finish this sentence? If it was up to you, tell them to stop making cars and make______.

I'll answer later.

Cat


Now that Hummer has been sold to China, this alternative is pretty much a bust.

GM would be best off just going the route of fuel efficiency, luxury, and utility.  The 4 remaining brands have a much higher likelihood of surviving if the appropriate labor reforms are made.

A question for everyone: How would you finish this sentence? If it was up to you, tell them to stop making cars and make______.


magician's props. They know how to make tens of billions of dollars disappear.

Seriously, I don't know. They need to come up with innovative ideas. How come no car comes with gas caps on both sides? This would be a great feature I think -  no matter which way you have to pull up to the pump, you're always on the right side. Yeah, it would cost a bit more, but it would be nice.

Is it just me, or does Chevrolet and GMC have a lot of virtual duplicates in product lines?

Ant

That's all well and true. Me and Al were discussing this a few weeks ago and worked out that if one Yellow/Roadway exec hadn't got his bonus this year (after losing millions) almost 100 employees could stay on.



You work (or worked) for Roadway?  My condolences Davey.  I know some people who came from that organization and those people would not know the meaning of the word "ethics" if you branded it on their forehead.

Is it just me, or does Chevrolet and GMC have a lot of virtual duplicates in product lines?

Ant


I thought Chevy was part of GMC

You work (or worked) for Roadway?  My condolences Davey.  I know some people who came from that organization and those people would not know the meaning of the word "ethics" if you branded it on their forehead.


I didn't work for Roadway, Al worked for Yellow.

But yes, in our discussions and what I hear from other people, that's not an uncommon consensus.

I thought Chevy was part of GMC


I think Username_Deleted meant the GMC Truck Division.

I'd tell GM to make high speed trains, wind turbines, and better solar panels.

I'd tell GM to make high speed trains, wind turbines, and better solar panels.


To do what with?

There's still essentially no funding for high speed rail connections, people still don't want wind power farms and although I'm a big fan of solar panels, the number of people qualified to install and service them is minimal.

I realize that GM is now essentially owned by the Government, but that doesn't mean they can't turn at least a small profit.

I saw my name come up in this discussion and I'd like to put in my two cents. 

I think that both the corporate bureaucracy and the UAW are to blame for GM's current situation. Their troubles stem not from inferior products, on the contrary, GM's quality and refinement has improved drastically within the last several years, and several of their vehicles (the new Vette, the Cadillac CTS, and the Chevrolet full-size pickups) are equal if not superior to their foreign made counterparts.

But that's the exception rather than the norm. Too many times GM has come up with some brilliant innovative design on the drawing board only to figure out a way to f*ck it up before it goes into production. They also spend millions of dollars on vehicles that make absolutely no sense. I'll give you the perfect example of this: The Chevrolet SSR.

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/01/vintage_cars/image/chevy_ssr.jpg

They wanted $50K+ for this thing, but for what? It's a pickup but you can't really haul anything with it. It's a two seat sports car that handles like a pickup. It's as big as a pickup but it can only hold 2 people. About the only redeeming quality it has is that it has a Corvette motor in it, but it's so big and heavy that for $20K less you could buy a Mustang that could blow its doors off. And it seems like the only people who drive them are rich asshole baby boomers.

GM only built about 25,000 of these, yet they undoubtedly spent tens of millions of dollars to design it. Why? It seems totally pointless to me.

Obviously this is just one small niche vehicle but to me it illustrates perfectly the mentality (or lack thereof) that's driven GM to bankruptcy.



And that's just the corporate side of it. I think the UAW holds a big part of the blame as well.

There is a GM plant here in Kansas City, there used to be two but the second one closed down about 15 years ago. Back in the 80's, one of my good friends worked at the plant that is now closed, and he told me that not only was he making some fat money when he was working there, but there was one time when they had to idle his plant for a year and during that time GM still paid him 90% of his normal salary.

In other words, if GM was paying him $65,000 a year to tighten lug nuts then they also paid him $58,000 to sit at home and get stoned and play Nintendo for an entire year. I don't care what anyone says, that's just ridiculous.

How that company ever made any money doing what they were doing is a mystery to me.


A couple of people also brought up the subject of Yellow/Roadway (or YRC, as it is now called), and let's just say over the last few weeks I've been so disgusted with the conduct of our local union officials that I started a new, non-union job last week. But that's another 5 paragraph rant right there, and I don't want to get too far off the subject.

I saw my name come up in this discussion and I'd like to put in my two cents. 

I think that both the corporate bureaucracy and the UAW are to blame for GM's current situation. Their troubles stem not from inferior products, on the contrary, GM's quality and refinement has improved drastically within the last several years, and several of their vehicles (the new Vette, the Cadillac CTS, and the Chevrolet full-size pickups) are equal if not superior to their foreign made counterparts.

But that's the exception rather than the norm. Too many times GM has come up with some brilliant innovative design on the drawing board only to figure out a way to f*ck it up before it goes into production. They also spend millions of dollars on vehicles that make absolutely no sense. I'll give you the perfect example of this: The Chevrolet SSR.

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/01/vintage_cars/image/chevy_ssr.jpg

They wanted $50K+ for this thing, but for what? It's a pickup but you can't really haul anything with it. It's a two seat sports car that handles like a pickup. It's as big as a pickup but it can only hold 2 people. About the only redeeming quality it has is that it has a Corvette motor in it, but it's so big and heavy that for $20K less you could buy a Mustang that could blow its doors off. And it seems like the only people who drive them are rich asshole baby boomers.

GM only built about 25,000 of these, yet they undoubtedly spent tens of millions of dollars to design it. Why? It seems totally pointless to me.

Obviously this is just one small niche vehicle but to me it illustrates perfectly the mentality (or lack thereof) that's driven GM to bankruptcy.



And that's just the corporate side of it. I think the UAW holds a big part of the blame as well.

There is a GM plant here in Kansas City, there used to be two but the second one closed down about 15 years ago. Back in the 80's, one of my good friends worked at the plant that is now closed, and he told me that not only was he making some fat money when he was working there, but there was one time when they had to idle his plant for a year and during that time GM still paid him 90% of his normal salary.

In other words, if GM was paying him $65,000 a year to tighten lug nuts then they also paid him $58,000 to sit at home and get stoned and play Nintendo for an entire year. I don't care what anyone says, that's just ridiculous.

How that company ever made any money doing what they were doing is a mystery to me.


A couple of people also brought up the subject of Yellow/Roadway (or YRC, as it is now called), and let's just say over the last few weeks I've been so disgusted with the conduct of our local union officials that I started a new, non-union job last week. But that's another 5 paragraph rant right there, and I don't want to get too far off the subject.






Yup.

As we discussed last time we hung out. Unions are totally necessary, but that doesn't mean all locals are good. Some are run by decent individuals trying to bargain for a better wage, some are run by corrupt butts trying to grease their own palms. As per usual, a lot of the UAW locals became more powerful than they needed to be and as a result were able to draft some pretty ridiculous contracts that hamstrung G.M.

I thought Chevy was part of GMC
Well GMC is part of GM. Basically GMC's are tarted up Chevy Trucks or SUVs in that they use better interior materials than Chevy Trucks or SUV's and have more upscale exterior styling than their Chevy counterparts do.

Seriously, I don't know. They need to come up with innovative ideas. How come no car comes with gas caps on both sides? This would be a great feature I think -  no matter which way you have to pull up to the pump, you're always on the right side. Yeah, it would cost a bit more, but it would be nice.

Ant


Back in the 60s and 70s a lot of cars had the fuel filler neck in the back underneath the rear license plate, and you'd just flip down the plate to get to it. I had a couple of old cars like that, it made perfect sense to me and I never understood why they did away with that, maybe it had to do with some federal safety regulation.

Back in the 60s and 70s a lot of cars had the fuel filler neck in the back underneath the rear license plate, and you'd just flip down the plate to get to it. I had a couple of old cars like that, it made perfect sense to me and I never understood why they did away with that, maybe it had to do with some federal safety regulation.


With those cars (like my Mercury Cougar) the gas tank served double-duty as the floor of the trunk.  So having the filler behind the license plate was convenient.

Of course, with the gas tank sitting out back like that, it was extremely vulnerable to being ruptured in a rear-end collision and thus a fair fire hazard.  :-\\

With those cars (like my Mercury Cougar) the gas tank served double-duty as the floor of the trunk.  So having the filler behind the license plate was convenient.

Of course, with the gas tank sitting out back like that, it was extremely vulnerable to being ruptured in a rear-end collision and thus a fair fire hazard.  :-\\


The Cougar was a clone of the Pinto, right?  Three cars you don't see much:

Ford Pinto
Ford Maverick
Chevy Vega

When I see one one of these, I do a double take.  Wow!  There goes a Ford Maverick!  There are seventies car buffs out there who will spend a whole year or more restoring one of those sh*tboxes.  The Chevy Chevette is getting there.  They were discontinued in 1987. 

Of course, the AMC Pacer (the bubble car) is sought after because people still think they look cool.  However, you don't see many Gremlins or Hornets!

The Cougar was a clone of the Pinto, right?  Three cars you don't see much:

Ford Pinto
Ford Maverick
Chevy Vega

When I see one one of these, I do a double take.  Wow!  There goes a Ford Maverick!  There are seventies car buffs out there who will spend a whole year or more restoring one of those sh*tboxes.  The Chevy Chevette is getting there.  They were discontinued in 1987. 

Of course, the AMC Pacer (the bubble car) is sought after because people still think they look cool.  However, you don't see many Gremlins or Hornets!




My mother used to LOVE the AMC Hornet-she had 3 of them over the course of 5(?) years or so.  :o :o :o  (Not at the same time.)



Cat

The Cougar was a clone of the Pinto, right?  Three cars you don't see much:

Ford Pinto
Ford Maverick
Chevy Vega

When I see one one of these, I do a double take.  Wow!  There goes a Ford Maverick!  There are seventies car buffs out there who will spend a whole year or more restoring one of those sh*tboxes.  The Chevy Chevette is getting there.  They were discontinued in 1987.  

Of course, the AMC Pacer (the bubble car) is sought after because people still think they look cool.  However, you don't see many Gremlins or Hornets!



Actually the Mercury version of the Pinto was called the Bobcat.

http://www.cardcow.com/images/1975-mercury-bobcat-3-dr-runabout-transportation-cars-73957.jpg

The Cougar was originally an upscale clone of the Mustang but later was based on the Thunderbird.


Once in a blue moon I might see a Maverick but I haven't seen a Pinto or especially a Vega on the road in years.

It's funny though, the one place where you can still see Pintos and Vegas fairly often is at dragstrips. A lot of guys used to like to gut these cars and stuff V-8's inside them and they'd run like a bat out of hell.

http://www.reddingdragstrip.net/images/Vega%20drag%20car3.jpg

The Cougar was a clone of the Pinto, right?  Three cars you don't see much:

Ford Pinto
Ford Maverick
Chevy Vega


Nah, the Cougar was a Mustang clone.

The Pinto clone was the Mercury Bobcat.  The clone of the Maverick was the Mercury Comet. 

The Vega clone was the Pontiac Astre.

Oddly the vehicle that did the Vega in was the lowly Chevy Chevette (a.k.a. Chevy Sh*tbox).

Nah, the Cougar was a Mustang clone.

The Pinto clone was the Mercury Bobcat.  The clone of the Maverick was the Mercury Comet.  

The Vega clone was the Pontiac Astre.

Oddly the vehicle that did the Vega in was the lowly Chevy Chevette (a.k.a. Chevy Sh*tbox).


The Chevette was a fine car for flat surfaces.  If you had to drive up a steep hill, the engine would red line and scream in agony, and you'd climb to the summit at 11 mph.  They you'd have to let the motor cool for a while and put some more water in the radiator!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/BangHead.gif

The Chevette was fine car for flat surfaces.  If you had to drive up a steep hill, the engine would red line and scream in agony, and you'd climb to the summit at 11 mph.  They you'd have to let the motor cool for a while and put some more water in the radiator!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/BangHead.gif


Back in '77 I worked a summer job at a Thrifty Rent-A-Car agency and the Chevette was in our fleet.  About twice a week we'd get a group of maybe 3-4 big businessmen who would rent a Chevette.  The guys would get into the sh*tbox with their breifcases and it would look like some sort of Shriner's Convention parade.

Inevitably a group would return from their trip and complain that it was too slow and too small.  All I could say was "Dude... you 3 guys rented a CHEVETTE."  ;D

Back in '77 I worked a summer job at a Thrifty Rent-A-Car agency and the Chevette was in our fleet.  About twice a week we'd get a group of maybe 3-4 big businessmen who would rent a Chevette.  The guys would get into the sh*tbox with their breifcases and it would look like some sort of Shriner's Convention parade.

Inevitably a group would return from their trip and complain that it was too slow and too small.  All I could say was "Dude... you 3 guys rented a CHEVETTE."   ;D


Maybe they were going cheap on the rental car to put more expense account dough towards p*ssy and beer at the end of the conference!
:P

We called the Chevette the "Shove it"

We called the Chevette the "Shove it"


I remember a friend of mine managed to move from one apartment to another using nothing but her Chevette.  Of course, that was college and the days of futons and minimal furnishings...but still it was quite an achievement!
;D

I don't care what anyone says, I want one of these!

http://www.cargurus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/2010-camaro.jpeg

I don't care what anyone says, I want one of these!

http://www.cargurus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/2010-camaro.jpeg



With the V6, I think this car will actually qualify for the cash for clunkers, its claimed to get 23mpg combined.
Go for it!