http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=Swine+flu

Lawmaker wants border closed over swine flu

A little late, don't ya think?  Mexico has been exporting their poverty, crime and diseases to this country for years and Congress only spoke of giving amnesty to illegal immigrants from that country.  Now they want to secure the border?  Good work, Congress.  I can't imagine 535 people who could mess up a country as well as these people.

So not touching this one....... ::)

http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=Swine+flu

Lawmaker wants border closed over swine flu

A little late, don't ya think?  Mexico has been exporting their poverty, crime and diseases to this country for years and Congress only spoke of giving amnesty to illegal immigrants from that country.  Now they want to secure the border?  Good work, Congress.  I can't imagine 535 people who could mess up a country as well as these people.


By the way, this has nothing to do with illegal immigrants.  If swine flu is present in any other country besides Mexico, it is due to TOURISTS bringing it back from Mexico, not from immigrants hopping the border.  I mean, honestly, how many Mexicans do you know that travel to New Zealand (where 20 people are infected) for work?

So you can take your "OMG!!! It's the damned diseased illegals!!111" theory and shove it in the garbage.

So you can take your "OMG!!! It's the damned diseased illegals!!111" theory and shove it in the garbage.


Nope.  It's just congress leaving the border wide open because business interests want cheap labor.  A closed border probably would have kept this in Mexico.

The illegal immigrants themselves just bring more poverty.

Nope.  It's just congress leaving the border wide open because business interests want cheap labor.  A closed border probably would have kept this in Mexico.

The illegal immigrants themselves just bring more poverty.


Yeah, did you read the part about it not being illegals bringing into this country, but US tourists?  The President himself might have been exposed to it.  They're not sure yet.  A closed border wouldn't help sh*t if you still have people going to visit Mexico.  Duh. ::)

Oh yeah, just so we all know, the first reported cases of swine flu were NOT in Mexico, but the US.  From the CDC itself:

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/

12 cases reported between 2005 and 2009.  In 1988, a woman (from Wisconsin) died from swine flu.

Your theory about illegals causing this (which is exactly what you're doing....blaming illegal immigrants) pretty much goes out the window.  Maybe a tourist from here took it to Mexico and infected someone there.  Knowing that they do not have the type of healthcare we have, it spread rapidly, and POOF!  Pandemic!

I'm done now.

Exporting crime, poverty, and disease?

Sure, tell it to Squanto!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/vogel.gif

Oh yeah, just so we all know, the first reported cases of swine flu were NOT in Mexico, but the US.  From the CDC itself:

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/

12 cases reported between 2005 and 2009.  In 1988, a woman (from Wisconsin) died from swine flu.

Your theory about illegals causing this (which is exactly what you're doing....blaming illegal immigrants) pretty much goes out the window.  Maybe a tourist from here took it to Mexico and infected someone there.  Knowing that they do not have the type of healthcare we have, it spread rapidly, and POOF!  Pandemic!

I'm done now.

Yeah, and closed borders might have meant all those Mexican lives would have been saved!  Providing we shut off the airports, too.  And the flying pigs (after all, I keep hearing the swine flew)

http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=Swine+flu

Lawmaker wants border closed over swine flu

A little late, don't ya think?  Mexico has been exporting their poverty, crime and diseases to this country for years and Congress only spoke of giving amnesty to illegal immigrants from that country.  Now they want to secure the border?  Good work, Congress.  I can't imagine 535 people who could mess up a country as well as these people.



I thought you went away...

Pig Flu, yep. I heard about it.

There are pigs who are cleaner than some people that come to my church.

Looks like some Mexicans may return to Mexico. I hope the Pig Flu doesn't become Mexican AIDS.

Nope.  It's just congress leaving the border wide open because business interests want cheap labor.  A closed border probably would have kept this in Mexico.

The illegal immigrants themselves just bring more poverty.
evidently it's a result of big agricultural firms exploiting the mexican government's lax regulations to create unsanitary pig factories where the pigs live in concentration camp-type conditions, these farms are breeding grounds for pathogens of all types, and if anything is to blame, it's an unfaltering devotion to profit motive and the bottom line on the part of the multinationals, not any sort of inscrutable dark "other."

evidently it's a result of big agricultural firms exploiting the mexican government's lax regulations to create unsanitary pig factories where the pigs live in concentration-type conditions, these farms are breeding grounds for pathogens of all types, and if anything is to blame, it's an unfaltering devotion to profit motive and the bottom line on the part of the multinationals, not any sort of inscrutable dark "other."


Just like some KFC Farms.

No wonder Bird Flu came here as well as Pig Flu!

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/sombreros.jpg

evidently it's a result of big agricultural firms exploiting the mexican government's lax regulations to create unsanitary pig factories where the pigs live in concentration camp-type conditions, these farms are breeding grounds for pathogens of all types, and if anything is to blame, it's an unfaltering devotion to profit motive and the bottom line on the part of the multinationals, not any sort of inscrutable dark "other."


Exactly. A lot of the eColi outbreaks in food have been the results of similar problems: cutting food safety corners to make a buck. That's why we couldn't get tomatoes for almost two months last year: someone fertilized a field with improperly treated human waste instead of spending a bit more for the correct, safer and approved fertilizer.

The same argument (which I hope isn't embarassing  ;)) should be made re: illegal workers. Blame the companies that hire them, not the people themselves.

Ant

We need to up our food sanitation standards, ban food from various countries that don't uphold our standards, and prosecute the negligent executives responsible for endangering our food supply.

In addition, we need to prosecute all employers of illegals and deport the illegals themselves.

As for border security, a minefield fence combination would probably work wonders.

Nope.  It's just congress leaving the border wide open because business interests want cheap labor.  A closed border probably would have kept this in Mexico.

The illegal immigrants themselves just bring more poverty.


Well

Indians should have done the same thing with the pilgrims.  Those white people brought all kinds of sickness that the natives had no natural immunity to.  If it weren't for illegal immigrants waiting for your BigMac at Mickey D's would be a hell of a lot longer.  As for illegals bringing more poverty . . . stop selling them the delusion of the "American Dream"  that simple.

Well

Indians should have done the same thing with the pilgrims.  Those white people brought all kinds of sickness that the natives had no natural immunity to.  If it weren't for illegal immigrants waiting for your BigMac at Mickey D's would be a hell of a lot longer.  As for illegals bringing more poverty . . . stop selling them the delusion of the "American Dream"  that simple.


Historically, you are correct about the pilgrims.  However, I wouldn't blame our "American Dream" propaganda for illegals.  I'd blame the greed of employers and the desperation of Mexico.

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/sombreros.jpg

Historically, you are correct about the pilgrims.  However, I wouldn't blame our "American Dream" propaganda for illegals.  I'd blame the greed of employers and the desperation of Mexico.


Most would tell you they come to America for a better life.  People have been doing that since colonial times.  I'm not sure if this is really different that the influx of Hessians during the 18th century.  Germans worked cheap then too.

Most would tell you they come to America for a better life.  People have been doing that since colonial times.  I'm not sure if this is really different that the influx of Hessians during the 18th century.  Germans worked cheap then too.


The difference is that our economy doesn't need cheap labor anymore.  We have an excess of poor as it is.  What we need to do is limit immigration more and actually enforce citizenship laws.

They do come here for a better life, but over time, our standard of living is falling, partially because of the amount of poverty we have here.  It doesn't help things when we import poor or refugees from other countries.

The difference is that our economy doesn't need cheap labor anymore.  We have an excess of poor as it is.  What we need to do is limit immigration more and actually enforce citizenship laws.

They do come here for a better life, but over time, our standard of living is falling, partially because of the amount of poverty we have here.  It doesn't help things when we import poor or refugees from other countries.


If that's the case then why outsource jobs to India and move factories to Mexico?  I'll agree we do need stricter immigration.  Do we leave it in the hands of people who shoot to kill?  (Get off my land you varmints!!!)  Can the Government get a grip on this, it hasn't yet.  Ah yes but poor American look mighty rich to people of impoverished nations.

If that's the case then why outsource jobs to India and move factories to Mexico?  I'll agree we do need stricter immigration.  Do we leave it in the hands of people who shoot to kill?  (Get off my land you varmints!!!)  Can the Government get a grip on this, it hasn't yet.  Ah yes but poor American look mighty rich to people of impoverished nations.


We outsource because a lot of industries are best served in the Third World.  For a First World population, we're poorly educated and lacking in skill.  We need to redesign our education system to improve this.  American citizens should be working high skill jobs, not retail.

While our poor live like kings compared to the poor of Mexico or Africa, that's not a very compelling argument to maintain the status quo.

We outsource because a lot of industries are best served in the Third World.  For a First World population, we're poorly educated and lacking in skill.  We need to redesign our education system to improve this.  American citizens should be working high skill jobs, not retail.

While our poor live like kings compared to the poor of Mexico or Africa, that's not a very compelling argument to maintain the status quo.


They also don't have to supply health insurance to their employees, or deal with unions.  I can also see it provides jobs and any job is a good job to some.  Yeah Europe is ahead of us in those areas.  No it's not a very compelling argument,  not very progressive either. :-[

They also don't have to supply health insurance to their employees, or deal with unions.  I can also see it provides jobs and any job is a good job to some.  Yeah Europe is ahead of us in those areas.  No it's not a very compelling argument,  not very progressive either. :-[


True.  Cheap comes in many forms.  I'm not saying outsourcing is ethical, but what about big business is?  :-\\

I just find it sad that we even have people not educated enough to work something better than McDonald's.  Ideally, the only people who should work low wage stuff here are high school dropouts and college undergrads.  Beyond that, everyone should be skilled, but they're not...

True.  Cheap comes in many forms.  I'm not saying outsourcing is ethical, but what about big business is?   :-\\

I just find it sad that we even have people not educated enough to work something better than McDonald's.  Ideally, the only people who should work low wage stuff here are high school dropouts and college undergrads.  Beyond that, everyone should be skilled, but they're not...


Don't know what it is about the American work force.  It just seems to have a stagnant mentality. 

Don't know what it is about the American work force.  It just seems to have a stagnant mentality. 


I wouldn't blame it on the people as much as the systems.  We obviously have a lot of handicaps to overcome.  Take the black community for example.  We started out with enslaving them, then segregating them, and now, a large portion of them are coming from the poorest areas of the planet.  So basically, we have native poor and immigrant poor among blacks, with a lot of poverty and single-parent households to deal with.  Given this variety of obstacles and legacy of disadvantages, it's not hard to see why many of them would appear to either lack inspiration or opportunity.

I'm glad things are mostly better for blacks now, but in order to improve their situation, we need to improve their schools first.  So many inner city schools aren't providing the practical skills these kids need for easy access to a career.  There's obviously plenty of need for technical fields that isn't being fulfilled, and many of these kids already have natural talents for things like working on cars and such.  To many kids, this is a hell of a lot more interesting than sitting through another boring English class (and a lot more employable).

If education in general had more of a technical emphasis, we'd have less dropouts and more kids entering technical careers right after school.  These jobs pay a lot better than retail as well.  It's also harder to outsource these jobs since we physically need these people here to help us.

Swine Flu has reached Canada, cases have been reported in the Maritimes. 

It's such a scary issue that people are almost terrified to be near anyone with the slightest case of the sniffles.  Are we ever gonna live in a world that is free from diseases and deadly viruses?  In a perfect world I guess :\'(

Swine Flu has reached Canada, cases have been reported in the Maritimes. 

It's such a scary issue that people are almost terrified to be near anyone with the slightest case of the sniffles.  Are we ever gonna live in a world that is free from diseases and deadly viruses?  In a perfect world I guess :\'(




There's also cases of it in New Zealand and Spain.  I hope we don't have people persecuted for having a mere cold.  I don't know if we'll ever live in that world.  On the bright side at least science have advanced enough to deal with it.  Remember that the plaque was blamed on Jews and witches.

I mean, honestly, how many Mexicans do you know that travel to New Zealand (where 20 people are infected) for work?



Hey, SOMEBODY has to pick all those kiwi fruit.  ;D

OK, how is this for perspective...

To this day, my MOTHER has a distrust of the American Red Cross.  Why?

Because during the last swine flu outbreak (in 1918), my grandmother was tending to some flu victims at her house.  The local Red Cross people (who were supposed to be helping flu victims) came to her door, but as soon as she declared that there was a flu victim in the house, the Red Cross people high-tailed it.

Lesson to be learned here:  If you slack at your job, SOME people will remember it for a REALLY long time!  ;D

OK, how is this for perspective...

To this day, my MOTHER has a distrust of the American Red Cross.  Why?

Because during the last swine flu outbreak (in 1918), my grandmother was tending to some flu victims at her house.  The local Red Cross people (who were supposed to be helping flu victims) came to her door, but as soon as she declared that there was a flu victim in the house, the Red Cross people high-tailed it.

Lesson to be learned here:  If you slack at your job, SOME people will remember it for a REALLY long time!   ;D


The Red Cross has been known to be all talk.  I can see why you family doesn't like them.

I hope we don't have people persecuted for having a mere cold.  I don't know if we'll ever live in that world

Almost happened to me today.  I have been getting over the common cold, and earlier today as I was in Best Buy, I let out a mere cough, and this lady in the same aisle as me gave me this sickening look, and quickly went to where I was not.  I almost wanted to be a jackass and follow her around the store coughing, but I am better than that

I will admit that when I see people coughing and sneezing now, I am more aware than I was.  It's getting so that these days, the common cold might not be so common. 

OK, how is this for perspective...

To this day, my MOTHER has a distrust of the American Red Cross.  Why?

Because during the last swine flu outbreak (in 1918), my grandmother was tending to some flu victims at her house.  The local Red Cross people (who were supposed to be helping flu victims) came to her door, but as soon as she declared that there was a flu victim in the house, the Red Cross people high-tailed it.

Lesson to be learned here:  If you slack at your job, SOME people will remember it for a REALLY long time!   ;D

Even though, epidemiologically speaking, what the Red Cross people did was probably the most sensible thing?

When that story started, I thought you were going to say that they went in, tried to help, then ended up spreading influenza to the rest of the town.

Even though, epidemiologically speaking, what the Red Cross people did was probably the most sensible thing?

When that story started, I thought you were going to say that they went in, tried to help, then ended up spreading influenza to the rest of the town.



Well if they were supposed to be helping flu victims, then why would they run away when they actually came to a house that had flu people?  The people WITHOUT the flu didn't need them...  Makes no sense.

Well if they were supposed to be helping flu victims, then why would they run away when they actually came to a house that had flu people?  The people WITHOUT the flu didn't need them...  Makes no sense.

I can think of several explanations that do make sense: gathering data, for example (though I'm not sure how much was done back then), or giving out the basic info on how to reduce the chances of infection/what to do if infected.  After all, back then there really wasn't much to do once infected, other than keep up the fluid intake to avoid dehydration (and maybe take aspirin as an antipyretic).  If you've already got someone in the house looking after those infected, what extra aid could the Red Cross bods give?

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/sombreros.jpg

Even though, epidemiologically speaking, what the Red Cross people did was probably the most sensible thing?

When that story started, I thought you were going to say that they went in, tried to help, then ended up spreading influenza to the rest of the town.

true. really easy for us to sit here and go, damn the red cross! they should have gone in there, contracted spanish flu and died! what could be so hard about that?

there's something craven about pretending we can imagine ourselves into their place so easily. are the people judging so sure they'd put their own lives on the line?

really?

i'd be more inclined to blame the higher ups who put these guys in the field without sufficient gear to avoid spreading the disease. i dont know if such gear existed in 1918, if not it's really a dilemma.

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/sombreros.jpg



The small sombrero is better than sun block.



Cat

The small sombrero is better than sun block.

Though possibly less fun to apply

Though possibly less fun to apply



ROTFLMAO!!!!!


Karma.



Cat

:)

To get some idea of perspective, from another forum I frequent:

mjrobbins"]An interesting statistic:

On a typical day in the U.S., ~100 people will die of ordinary flu (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm)

:)

To get some idea of perspective, from another forum I frequent:



That definitely puts it into perspective.  Karma for that.

Yeah, and closed borders might have meant all those Mexican lives would have been saved!


Talking about American lives here.  Not to just this, but the many Americans killed by illegal immigrants from Mexico that could've been prevented with a decent fence and a border patrol that isn't undermanned.

Kudos to Phil for the link, and karma for the laugh.


Talking about American lives here.  Not to just this, but the many Americans killed by illegal immigrants from Mexico that could've been prevented with a decent fence and a border patrol that isn't undermanned.


I'm going to go make popcorn and get some Juniormints. The replies to this ought to be great. I hereby request an intermission at page 4 of rebuttals.

Ant

The leisurely lifestyles of Americans rely upon "Third World" misery.  Every silver lining has its cloud.
::)

...And some people around here would blame a hangnail on illegal immigrants!

Talking about American lives here.  Not to just this, but the many Americans killed by illegal immigrants from Mexico that could've been prevented with a decent fence and a border patrol that isn't undermanned.


Blah blah blah illegal blah blah blah their fault blah blah blah blah fence blah border blah guns blah America rules blah blah blah..........

Americans aren't the be all and end all of the world, so kindly STFU.

Blah blah blah illegal blah blah blah their fault blah blah blah blah fence blah border blah guns blah America rules blah blah blah..........

Americans aren't the be all and end all of the world, so kindly STFU.


If you liberals would give us half a chance, we could at least be the end all!
:-\\

Blah blah blah illegal blah blah blah their fault blah blah blah blah fence blah border blah guns blah America rules blah blah blah..........

Americans aren't the be all and end all of the world


Don't act so juvenile.

Nobody on this thread said Americans are "be all and end all of the world".  But it is the job of the U.S. Congress to act in America's interests, not Mexico's.

Don't act so juvenile.

Nobody on this thread said Americans are "be all and end all of the world".  But it is the job of the U.S. Congress to act in America's interests, not Mexico's.


If I may, sil vous plait, the title of this thread expresses contempt for Mexico and that in conjunction with "Talking about American lives here" sounds a bit like you're saying American lives lost to swine flu are more significant than Mexican lives lost to the same disease.

Don't act so juvenile.

Nobody on this thread said Americans are "be all and end all of the world".  But it is the job of the U.S. Congress to act in America's interests, not Mexico's.


You may not have said it, but you sure act like it.  And I'll say, ONCE AGAIN, that illegals did NOT bring swine flu to the US.  TOURISTS brought it BACK FROM MEXICO, so your stupid assed argument about illegals, borders, and every other bullsh*t thing you've dragged up is a moot point.  Kthxbai.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/Nerdprincess1980/Funny/America-1.jpg

If I may, sil vous plait, the title of this thread expresses contempt for Mexico and that in conjunction with "Talking about American lives here" sounds a bit like you're saying American lives lost to swine flu are more significant than Mexican lives lost to the same disease.



THANK YOU.

His argument isn't helped by the fact that everyone in the US that has it has pretty much shaken it off like the normal flu, and, you know, NOT DIED from it.

....."Talking about American lives here" sounds a bit like you're saying American lives lost to swine flu are more significant than Mexican lives lost to the same disease.


Not more significant, just more of the job of the U.S. government to deal with.  They've done nothing major on the issue of immigration since 1986 I believe.

Why is it so damn hard to secure the borders and create a decent guest worker program that doesn't reward people who cut in line with citizenship?

Not more significant, just more of the job of the U.S. government to deal with.  They've done nothing major on the issue of immigration since 1986 I believe.

Why is it so damn hard to secure the borders and create a decent guest worker program that doesn't reward people who cut in line with citizenship?


Why do you think? 

You seem to be changing your tune a bit.  Your beef is not with swine flu, but with too many Mexicans around here!
::)

Why do you think? 

You seem to be changing your tune a bit.  Your beef is not with swine flu, but with too many Mexicans around here!
::)


Karma!

Oh wait, you'll have to wait until tomorrow. :D

Your beef is not with swine flu, but with too many Mexicans around here!


Nice straw man.

The "beef" is with swine flu and drugs, homicides, poor Mexican citizens taking American taxpayer dollars, etc.  Swine flu is just the latest in a long line of problems that stem from Mexico and Congress' refusal to do anything meaningful to secure the southern border.

Nice straw man.

The "beef" is with swine flu and drugs, homicides, poor Mexican citizens taking American taxpayer dollars, etc.  Swine flu is just the latest in a long line of problems that stem from Mexico and Congress' refusal to do anything meaningful to secure the southern border.


I call bullsh*t.  I've said before, AGAIN AND AGAIN, that swine flu wasn't brought in by illegals, and you continue to ignore that fact and bitch about illegals.

I call bullsh*t.  I've said before, AGAIN AND AGAIN, that swine flu wasn't brought in by illegals, and you continue to ignore that fact and bitch about illegals.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_swine_flu_outbreak

Don't you think with swine flu, it might be wise now to try harder to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in from Mexico, considering Mexico is the main source of the problem?

Nice straw man.

The "beef" is with swine flu and drugs, homicides, poor Mexican citizens taking American taxpayer dollars, etc.  Swine flu is just the latest in a long line of problems that stem from Mexico and Congress' refusal to do anything meaningful to secure the southern border.


Ay carumba! Do I hafta 'splain all this sheet again?  

You could have a fence 500 feet high and 500 feet thick from the Gulf to the Pacific and it wouldn't have stopped the virus.  Viruses have a life of their own.  Back in the 17th century, smallpox wiped out Indian communities hundreds of miles in advance of any European explorers.  Planes fly from Mexico city to U.S. cities day in and day out.  

Certain right-wing commentators, such as Michael Savage and Glenn Beck, make it sound as if the Mexicans started a flue pandemic to kill white Americans.  Do you think Mexicans WANT to live in broke-ass poverty next to factory pig farms run by U.S. agribusiness?  Of course not!

Thanks for clearing that up BTW, it's not Mexicans, it's POOR Mexicans!

Too many poor people around here!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/01/bandit.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_swine_flu_outbreak

Don't you think with swine flu, it might be wise now to try harder to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in from Mexico, considering Mexico is the main source of the problem?


Why should it, since it wasn't CAUSED BY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?!?!

Jesus swine flu spreading Christ, you're dense.

Why should it, since it wasn't CAUSED BY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?!?!


Umm....because thousands of Mexicans have it and it's not smart now (not that it ever was) to let people come in unchecked from Mexico?

I'm having a really hard time finding out what is so confusing about any of that.

Umm....because thousands of Mexicans have it and it's not smart now (not that it ever was) to let people come in unchecked from Mexico?

I'm having a really hard time finding out what is so confusing about any of that.


I'm having a hard time figuring out why you're even bringing up illegal immigrants when it has sh*t all to do with them at this moment.  Unless it comes out later that the swine flu was spread into this country and other countries by illegal immigrants, then your bitching about them makes no sense.

Thanks for clearing that up BTW, it's not Mexicans, it's POOR Mexicans!


Yes, most illegal immigrants from Mexico are poor.  Hence the "poverty" line at the beginning.

These aren't the good high-skilled, college educated immigrants from Europe, Asia and India.  These are the ones clogging up ERs, putting stress on schools, filling up jails and just generally taking up American tax dollars and resources.  Low-skilled immigrants have their place though and congress should put in place a guest worker plan.

None of this has to do with swine flu, but this thread has seemingly become another immigration thread.

None of this has to do with swine flu, but this thread has seemingly become another immigration thread.


By your own doing. ::)

Considering we do have somewhere around 13 million illegal immigrants in this country that mostly come from Mexico, it's not exactly far-fetched to assume that some of the carriers of this flu are illegal.

Granted, many carriers are likely to also be legal immigrants with family in Mexico, and a few others will likely be tourists coming back from Mexico.

Well, I have sat and read, then re-read this thread, all the while contemplating what I want to say on the subject.
Unfortunately, I can't find anything to say about the swine flu that hasn't already been said. Perhaps those comments of mine should go in another thread.

This thread however, might need a title change.
It obviously isn't about swine flu, but about illegal immigrants and border control, poverty and education, Congress and money.

So I will reply to what stirs me most.




I just find it sad that we even have people not educated enough to work something better than McDonald's.  Ideally, the only people who should work low wage stuff here are high school dropouts and college undergrads.  Beyond that, everyone should be skilled, but they're not...


Are you sure that the people who work in these positions are not educated enough?
I ask because I am fully educated, graduated a CHRP and CHRM - however I worked for years in customer service. I worked for a hockey club, a telephone company, a convenience store and a flower nursery, to name a few - all the while looking for a position in my field. And yes, I even applied to McDonald's because to me - any job is better than no job at all. To make such a gross statement about the people working in "low wage stuff" actually offends.


Talking about American lives here.  Not to just this, but the many Americans killed by illegal immigrants from Mexico that could've been prevented with a decent fence and a border patrol that isn't undermanned.


WTF? Link? Enlighten me please. Where are your facts from? Produce something that proves this claim because all it sounds like to me is Sheeeeeeeeeesh.


Not more significant, just more of the job of the U.S. government to deal with.  They've done nothing major on the issue of immigration since 1986 I believe.

Why is it so damn hard to secure the borders and create a decent guest worker program that doesn't reward people who cut in line with citizenship?


Money/Funding? People?


Yes, most illegal immigrants from Mexico are poor.  Hence the "poverty" line at the beginning.

These aren't the good high-skilled, college educated immigrants from Europe, Asia and India.  These are the ones clogging up ERs, putting stress on schools, filling up jails and just generally taking up American tax dollars and resources.  Low-skilled immigrants have their place though and congress should put in place a guest worker plan.

None of this has to do with swine flu, but this thread has seemingly become another immigration thread.


WTF?
Basically, that's all I can say about everything you have said in this thread.
And I can't believe I have just wasted my time trying to figure out a way to reply to you so you would understand. So instead, I will agree with what everyone else has said in regards to your posts, promise them all karma as soon as I am allowed, and finish by saying WTF?

Sorry, Tam: I just kicked out another error... probably something to do with the karma log.  ;)

GWBush2004: the bottom line reason that no one is really doing squat about illegal immigration is that big business (left or right political ideology) benefits from it. More people = more schools, more prisons, more hospitals, more laws, more goverment, more police, etc. Only the taxpayers are getting ******, and who has ever cared about the taxpayers?

You may not know (or care ;D), but I do commercial construction for a living. On some sites, I am the token white guy there (yes, it is that bad). Do I blame the illegals? No. They are happy to work for a 1/3 of what I do (and my labor is nowhere near union rates). The companies that hire them are to blame.

I simply cannot compete with Joe (or Jose) Blow who has no business license, no insurance, no workman's comp, no accountability, knows nothing, and has no expenses. Legitimate business has real costs, which brings me to my second culprit: the cheap-ass American public at large. Very few care anymore if you are legit or do good work, they look at the bottom line. No one cares if their property will require lifelong maintenance and repairs because, by golly, they saved a few k up front. So, while I'm getting seriously screwed w/o Vasoline at the moment, I know that there will be good years ahead fixing all of the mistakes done by crap labor.

I do not agree with GW's views, but I will say this: anyone who is too goddamned cheap to do things right the first time deserves all the headaches they will have in the future, illegal workers or not (there's plenty of cheap, crappy LEGAL work too).

As for the swine flu, maybe pigs finally learned how to fly.  :D

Ant

I wanted to add this for GWBush2004 to digest: do you like fruits and veggies? I do. Unless you're ready to pay 10$/lb for tomatoes, $8 for a head of lettuce and $15/qt for orange juice, you have no business complaining about illegal labor, unless you are going to start planting and picking your own produce.

Along those thread-is-looking-to-become-derailed lines, many of the eColi outbreaks in recent years are also not due to illegals, but due to companies (as George Carlin might say: "Run by rich, White A**holes") looking to cut corners to line their own pockets with more money.

America used to be the best. Now we are in a race to the bottom, and I hope I live long enough to see it crash and burn, so that everyone as a whole can start rebuilding it the right way.

/RAnt off

I wanted to add this for GWBush2004 to digest: do you like fruits and veggies? I do. Unless you're ready to pay 10$/lb for tomatoes, $8 for a head of lettuce and $15/qt for orange juice, you have no business complaining about illegal labor, unless you are going to start planting and picking your own produce.


"The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term.  During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term.  Imports would increase about 1 percent."

Source

"The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term.  During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term.  Imports would increase about 1 percent."

Source
http://www.cis.org/OpedsandArticles

this source is biased.

Umm....because thousands of Mexicans have it and it's not smart now (not that it ever was) to let people come in unchecked from Mexico?

I'm having a really hard time finding out what is so confusing about any of that.


People such as yourself will never come even remotely in contact with them.  I'm surprised you haven't joined the blowhards in your party and blaming it on Obama's trip to Mexico.  But that would mean that it started in America. ;D

People such as yourself will never come even remotely in contact with them.  I'm surprised you haven't joined the blowhards in your party and blaming it on Obama's trip to Mexico.  But that would mean that it started in America. ;D
aren't they blaming obama for the earthquake that happened in mexico while he was there?

aren't they blaming obama for the earthquake that happened in mexico while he was there?


He wasn't there for that, however because he has Islamic ties and has a crazy liberal dog  . . . yep it's his fault.  (Does Rush evil laughter)

He wasn't there for that, however because he has Islamic ties and has a crazy liberal dog  . . . yep it's his fault.  (Does Rush evil laughter)
well, carter wasn't in office during the 1976 swine flu scare but that didn't stop michelle bachman from blaming him for that.  ;D

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/28/michele-bachmann-links-sw_n_192493.html

well, carter wasn't in office during the 1976 swine flu scare but that didn't stop michelle bachman from blaming him for that.  ;D

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/28/michele-bachmann-links-sw_n_192493.html


Yeah, I saw that.  Bachmann needs her head examined or some of that reeducation she accuses Obama of promoting.

aren't they blaming obama for the earthquake that happened in mexico while he was there?

I think I missed that one... they're blaming him for everything else, though ;)

"The removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase the summer-fall supermarket prices of fresh fruits and vegetables by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term.  During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less then 2 percent in the intermediate term.  Imports would increase about 1 percent."

Source


Note the date of this source - 1996!!!???

Yes, most illegal immigrants from Mexico are poor.  Hence the "poverty" line at the beginning.

These aren't the good high-skilled, college educated immigrants from Europe, Asia and India.  These are the ones clogging up ERs, putting stress on schools, filling up jails and just generally taking up American tax dollars and resources.  Low-skilled immigrants have their place though and congress should put in place a guest worker plan.

None of this has to do with swine flu, but this thread has seemingly become another immigration thread.


You're right about one thing.  Most are poor.  The Mexican upper class wouldn't dare dirty their feet on American soil.  Except to send their kids to a private school up her.  I beg to differ with you on your belief that only the worthwhile immigrants are from Europe, Asia and India.  Immigrants from places such as Vietnam are relatively uneducated and live on taxpayers money.  But hey they're not Mexican. ::)  By the way the lasted is that the first victim (called Zero) lived near a pig farm owned by a large American company. 

Nice straw man.

The "beef" is with swine flu and drugs, homicides, poor Mexican citizens taking American taxpayer dollars, etc.  Swine flu is just the latest in a long line of problems that stem from Mexico and Congress' refusal to do anything meaningful to secure the southern border.


So where are the rich American kids that can afford a dime bag a day going to get their fix.  They can't grow it, that requires work and the possibility of jail.  (Momsy and Daddy would not be pleased)  Besides I thought America was in favor of capitalism, supply and demand.  Do you mean Americans don't kill other Americans?  B.S.  Mexicans are most likely to kill their own.  American taxpayers money.  I'm a taxpayer if I could pick and choose where my money went to it wouldn't go into any faith based initiatives.  Sorry, but I just would rather it go to somewhere more proper. 

A lot of people are missing the point here-most of the poor Mexicans are poor because of the U.S. Yes, that is right folks, it used to be that most poor Mexicans could scrape by on their small farms prior to a little treaty called NAFTA! U.S. mega farms move to Mexico because of the cheap labor, they can sell produce cheaper, thus undercutting the small farmer who can't compete and are forced to go under. They in turn, come to the U.S. seeking work and then you have business owners who are willing to exploit these displaced people so they can pay them very low wages without benefits because they know these workers can't complain. Meanwhile, you have American workers (fueled by a lot of commentators such as Lou Dobbs, Bill O'Reilly, etc. etc.) blaming the victims here-the poor Mexicans who are just trying to survive. If you want to blame someone blame the U.S. government, blame NAFTA, and blame the greedy employers-on both sides of the border.



Cat

Are you sure that the people who work in these positions are not educated enough?
I ask because I am fully educated, graduated a CHRP and CHRM - however I worked for years in customer service. I worked for a hockey club, a telephone company, a convenience store and a flower nursery, to name a few - all the while looking for a position in my field. And yes, I even applied to McDonald's because to me - any job is better than no job at all. To make such a gross statement about the people working in "low wage stuff" actually offends.

I worked a lot of low wage temp jobs myself, so there's no need to be offended.  The point I was trying to make is that people shouldn't be scrambling for jobs.  If you have a good education, a job at McDonald's should be nothing more than a temporary position.  It is true that some people (mostly recent high school grads and college undergrads) work fast food for extra cash, but I'm referring to people that work these jobs for years.

There should be more opportunities out there from better education systems.  It wasn't intended to be a slight against people who work low skill jobs as much as it was a statement showing the repercussions of a flawed education system.

I wanted to add this for GWBush2004 to digest: do you like fruits and veggies? I do. Unless you're ready to pay 10$/lb for tomatoes, $8 for a head of lettuce and $15/qt for orange juice, you have no business complaining about illegal labor, unless you are going to start planting and picking your own produce.

A hidden factor involved in the value of produce is actually subsidization.  If we ended all farm subsidies, produce would naturally fall in value, regardless of illegal labor or not.

My argument is that we can deport all the illegals, prosecute their employers, and end all farm subsidies, and then....  the market would properly clear itself with reasonable prices.

The overall cost of produce might have a net increase, but for most people, this would be a negligible portion of their monthly budget.

None of this has to do with swine flu


Exactly.  Thank you sir.  You're a gentleman and a scholar.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/pfiade.gif

If you liberals would give us half a chance, we could at least be the end all!
:-\\


You are possessed with the ranting raving spirit of either Glenn Beck or Rush.  :o  *hears faint liberal leaning voice crying for help*

They also don't have to supply health insurance to their employees, or deal with unions.  I can also see it provides jobs and any job is a good job to some.  Yeah Europe is ahead of us in those areas.  No it's not a very compelling argument,  not very progressive either. :-[


Depends on where you are in Europe. I generally would say that as far as the job market is concered, Europe sucks. You have to go to trade school just to become a waiter over there. Granted, the waiters are all really good, but who the hell really cares. In France, the waiting list to become a taxi driver is over two years... or 250,000 euros up front. Also, resigning from your job is considered just as bad, if not worse, than being fired.

It is so hard to let go of a bad employee in France that companies are ultra-selective when they hire anybody, even a janitor, because they know that once they hire them, they'll have one hell of a time trying to fire them. The result: it's extremely difficult to get any job and unemployement is long-term. It's a piece of cake finding work in North America compared to in Europe.

Also, a lot of Europeans, especially French, like to brag about how great their education system is. I must know about 10 or 15 French citizens who have come over to Canada to study for a semester or two and who proclaim so easily how much higher quality the French education system is. Well, I did a little research...

I found out that for quite a long time now, Canada has been placed far ahead of France in every single international education survey. So I ask myself why they continue to be so self-congratulatory and I think I've figured it out. French people confuse inaccessibility with quality. In Canada, anyone can go to college or Univesity as long as they can demonstrate their ability to keep up with the material. In France, for most decent professions, you have to have got high marks in maths and sciences exams from as early on as middle school to even be considered for entry in any of the top schools. Otherwise you can go to university, free of charge, but only for certain programmes. After university, in order to become, say, a teacher, there is a system of contests where you will be compared by some bureaucracy somewhere in Paris with all the other postulants in the country and THEY will decide whether or not you will go to Teacher's College. It works the same way for pretty much any profession.

So because accessibility is so limited, French citizens naturally assume that the schools must be of great quality. The truth is, they aren't that great. In fact, they aren't even as good as Canadian schools which, yes, charge fees but at least it's the individual student who chooses what he thinks he can succeed in doing and not some government hack at the Ministry of Whatever.

So because accessibility is so limited, French citizens naturally assume that the schools must be of great quality. The truth is, they aren't that great. In fact, they aren't even as good as Canadian schools which, yes, charge fees but at least it's the individual student who chooses what he thinks he can succeed in doing and not some government hack at the Ministry of Whatever.

To be fair, the system of charging fees for post-secondary education has its flaws and leads to inaccessibility, as well. It excludes those who can't afford the fees and favours people who come from wealthy families.

To be fair, the system of charging fees for post-secondary education has its flaws and leads to inaccessibility, as well. It excludes those who can't afford the fees and favours people who come from wealthy families.


Actually, no it doesn't. It's the other way around and I will explain to you why.

In any progressive taxation system, people who make below a certain amount do not pay taxes. People who make lots of money on the other hand always find a way to escape paying too much in tax, be it through loopholes, credits or sheltering. This leaves everyone in between who are burdened with the lion's share of the tax burden. Now, in that same taxation system, if there exists a taxpayer-funded tuition free post-secondary education scheme, it's the same middle-class who is burdened paying for not only themselves and the poor, but also for the kids of those rich people who have found a way not to pay the amount of taxes they should have payed in principle. So Joe Millionaire gets to send his strapping young lad to McGill or U of T at the expense of the middle-class. Now that doesn't seem really fair to me.

Now, charging reasonable fees for university, yet still subsidising the system to ensure that those people who need financial assistance get it while at the same time forcing those with the means to pay to do so out of their own pocket, allows for a much greater access. There is not a single person in Canada who cannot go to university if he or she wants. First of all, the fees are reasonable (between $2,000 and $6,000 per year depending on the province) and those who need assistance get it through government loans and bursaries. I can't think of a more effective, realistic system.

Now, charging reasonable fees for university, yet still subsidising the system to ensure that those people who need financial assistance get it while at the same time forcing those with the means to pay to do so out of their own pocket, allows for a much greater access. There is not a single person in Canada who cannot go to university if he or she wants. First of all, the fees are reasonable (between $2,000 and $6,000 per year depending on the province) and those who need assistance get it through government loans and bursaries. I can't think of a more effective, realistic system.

I don't really know if $6000 per year for university tuition is all that accessible. That's a minimum of $24 000 for a four year degree. I live in Canada, and I've heard many people say that a university education is out of reach because of the financial burden. Especially considering that twenty-five or thirty years ago, tuition was about $1000 a year.

I don't really know if $6000 per year for university tuition is all that accessible. That's a minimum of $24 000 for a four year degree. I live in Canada, and I've heard many people say that a university education is out of reach because of the financial burden. Especially considering that twenty-five or thirty years ago, tuition was about $1000 a year.


it's called inflation

it's called inflation


But the increase in price has actually greatly exceeded the overall level of inflation over that time.

But the increase in price has actually greatly exceeded the overall level of inflation over that time.


A lot more goes into it than inflation.  Endowments and other funding aren't as plentiful as they are in a good economy.

I don't really know if $6000 per year for university tuition is all that accessible. That's a minimum of $24 000 for a four year degree. I live in Canada, and I've heard many people say that a university education is out of reach because of the financial burden. Especially considering that twenty-five or thirty years ago, tuition was about $1000 a year.


No, it's a maximum. The minimum, at about $2,000 a year, is $8,000 for a four-year degree.

It's nice to think about the good old days when it cost a grand a year, but $6,000 a year (and that really is the maximum for undergrad) for a top education is not only reasonable, but is accessible thanks to programmes such as Canada Student Loans. Any person in Canada can find the money he or she needs for post-secondary education. Anyone who says going to an Canadian university is financially out of reach for them is simply making excuses. If you want to go, you can go. I am living proof of this.

In Quebec, tuition is a little over $2,000 a year. On top of that, there is a generous government loans and bursaries system available to anyone in financial need. But does that stop people from complaining? Of course not. I hear it every day. The day higher education becomes free, they'll find a whole other set of problems to moan about.

The system can always use a little improvement, but the abolition of school fees would ultimately decrease accessibility because it invariably ends in underfunded schools tightening ever further their admissions policies because they don't have the means to meet the demand, and they don't have the right to charge fees to increase income. You then have a situation where perhaps 15,000 apply for entry to a university, but the university, strapped, can only afford to admit 10,000... What are the other 5,000 supposed to do? The answer of course is always to throw more money at the problem, but unfortunately no amount of money is ever enough.

In Quebec, tuition is a little over $2,000 a year.

It might be like that in Quebec, but here in Ontario, I don't think there's an undergraduate programme that charges less than $4500 a year for a full course load. Many actually charge upwards of $5000 or $6000.  And I think it's like that in most other places in Canada. The only reason it costs so little in Quebec is that the provincial government imposed a tuition freeze that most observers feel is unmaintainable in the long term.

Here in the U.S. it depends on what state you are in.  A private 4 year University goes for in the neighborhood of 30,000 to 50,000 a year.  Much is offset by grants, but most of it comes in the way of loans that must be repaid.  Many are leaving school owing in the neighborhood of 100,000 in loans.

It might be like that in Quebec, but here in Ontario, I don't think there's an undergraduate programme that charges less than $4500 a year for a full course load. Many actually charge upwards of $5000 or $6000.  And I think it's like that in most other places in Canada. The only reason it costs so little in Quebec is that the provincial government imposed a tuition freeze that most observers feel is unmaintainable in the long term.


The tuition freeze certainly was unmaintainable, which is why it was axed two years ago. What ended up happening was the universities were so strapped for cash that they ended up having to put hidden fees behind every corner, and raise other (non-tuition) fees higher and higher to try and scrape together more funds because the province simply didn't have the money to fully fund them.

I do believe in subsidies to offset the cost of post-secondary education, but at the end of the day the universities have to be able to charge fees in order to maintain quality without reducing admissions. 6,000 a year, compared to the $30,000 to $50,000 Danoota has mentioned, is quite a good deal. And as I said, accessibility is kept practically universal through need-based financial aid programmes.

Back on topic...

Who does this remind you of?

Bostons Jay Severin has just been suspended(my ears are thankful) for this diatribe

In one of his broadcasts this week, Severin said: "So now, in addition to venereal disease and the other leading exports of Mexico - women with mustaches and VD - now we have swine flu."

Later, he described Mexicans as "the world's lowest of primitives."

"When we are the magnet for primitives around the world - and it's not the primitives' fault by the way, I'm not blaming them for being primitives - I'm merely observing they're primitive," he said.

Back on topic...

Who does this remind you of?


Why is it so easy for people to blame a race then just say it's a damn virus and get on with life?  It reminds me of Hitler blaming everything on anyone who wasn't pure blood German.

Bostons Jay Severin has just been suspended(my ears are thankful) for this diatribe

In one of his broadcasts this week, Severin said: "So now, in addition to venereal disease and the other leading exports of Mexico - women with mustaches and VD - now we have swine flu."

Later, he described Mexicans as "the world's lowest of primitives."

"When we are the magnet for primitives around the world - and it's not the primitives' fault by the way, I'm not blaming them for being primitives - I'm merely observing they're primitive," he said.




And I'm merely observing that he's a big sh*tty d*ckhead. :)

Swine flu is being "contained and treated effectively", the UK government says as an 18th case is confirmed.

Here in the U.S. it depends on what state you are in.  A private 4 year University goes for in the neighborhood of 30,000 to 50,000 a year.  Much is offset by grants, but most of it comes in the way of loans that must be repaid.  Many are leaving school owing in the neighborhood of 100,000 in loans.


Time was if you went to a state university system, you'd spend more on books than on tuition itself! 

Then the Ronnie Reagan cohorts had a REAL GOOD idea!  Run it like a business, run it like a business! Squawk! Squawk!

So the state universities quadrupled costs, ballooned administrative bureaucracy, and cut teaching staff.

Oh yeah, and no more of this free sh*t.  Reagan hated that stuff.  He got rid of it in California when he was governor.  Of course, it was not all Reagan's doing, but what used to be a most-of-the-way ride on grants became futures mortgaged with ridiculous loans.  Compound this with skyrocketing tuition and "fees" and you've got degrees not worth earning!
::)

Time was if you went to a state university system, you'd spend more on books than on tuition itself! 

Then the Ronnie Reagan cohorts had a REAL GOOD idea!  Run it like a business, run it like a business! Squawk! Squawk!

So the state universities quadrupled costs, ballooned administrative bureaucracy, and cut teaching staff.

Oh yeah, and no more of this free sh*t.  Reagan hated that stuff.  He got rid of it in California when he was governor.  Of course, it was not all Reagan's doing, but what used to be a most-of-the-way ride on grants became futures mortgaged with ridiculous loans.   Compound this with skyrocketing tuition and "fees" and you've got degrees not worth earning!
::)


I attended Rutgers from 1964 to 1968.  Tuition was $400 per YEAR, and that was covered by a state scholarship.  What a deal!

A guy that I work pretty closely with called me yesterday and told me that he was out all last week with the Swine Flu.  I mean, the H1N1 virus.  The weird thing is though, he's fine.  He had to take a bunch of drugs, but he's ok.  I couldn't believe it.  He did say though, that he can see how people died from it.  He said it was pretty bad.  He caught it from an Insta Care.  He went in for strep throat, and came out with H1N1.  Anyway though, I'm glad he's ok.  We've had 8 deaths here in Utah.

We had a tuition freeze here in Missouri.

Whilst I was an undergrad I never paid more than $9000 a year (I realize that's a little more than the Canadian system, but not much) and now as a 'continuing student' (they really do come up with some ridiculous terminology) it can't be any more than that, of course, it's a lot lower for me anyway. Mine is subsidized by my employer and I only do a couple of classes, but still, up Missouri!

Of course, much as it pains to me to admit it, I did receive grants totaling almost $6000 a year. It's all still there if you look for it.

People such as yourself will never come even remotely in contact with them.  I'm surprised you haven't joined the blowhards in your party and blaming it on Obama's trip to Mexico.  But that would mean that it started in America. ;D


Actually, O'bama's position regarding illegal immigration is much like Bush II's.

He wants tighter border security (keep 'em out) and he supports a path to citizenship for illegals, subject to them first LEAVING THE UNITED STATES and standing in line behind others who filed (under due process of law) before them.

Actually, O'bama's position regarding illegal immigration is much like Bush II's.

He wants tighter border security (keep 'em out) and he supports a path to citizenship for illegals, subject to them first LEAVING THE UNITED STATES and standing in line behind others who filed (under due process of law) before them.


That fact doesn't stop some people from saying that Obama is the cause of every one of the U.S.'s problems.  Yes, what they both say is reasonable.