I'm not sure which is more to blame for this particular sad story...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090408/ap_on_re_us/gun_range_death

The gun used was rented at the range.

According to a police report, earlier footage from the surveillance video shows the mother and son taking turns shooting and talking with other customers in the adjacent lane. "They seem to be getting along fine," one of the responding officers said.

The son died at the scene. Marie Moore was still alive when officers arrived at the range but later died at a hospital.

Mitchell's father, Charles Moore, told police that Marie Moore had a history of mental illness, had previously attempted suicide and been involuntarily committed to a mental hospital in 2002 under the Florida law known as the Baker Act.

Marie Moore refers to the incident in records she left for police and Shoot Straight, saying she spent a year in and out of a "mental home" but insisted: "I'm not sick." Family members found the audio tapes and three suicide notes late Monday and gave them to police.

"I'm sorry to do this in your place of business, but I had to save my son," one message said. "God made me a queen and I failed. I'm a fallen angel. He turned me into the anti-Christ."

I have to admit i'm starting to see red-state ideology/theology in just about every act of senseless violence we're witnessing these days. This lady was obviously crazy but religion obviously fed and exascerbated her delusions like gas on a fire. and then, of course, ready access to guns made it really easy for her to do what she did. And notice, also, she was surrounded by other people with guns -- the tried and ready argument of second amendment jockeys why we should all have automatic weapons for our own safety -- and it doesn't appear to have helped one single bit.

Well, to be fair, the same arguments could be made about Islam.

Guns aren't the problem.  Fanatical religion is.

Well, to be fair, the same arguments could be made about Islam.

Guns aren't the problem.  Fanatical religion is.
well yeah, you're never gonna see me defend radical islam. but this lady pinned this squarely on ole' JC.

and as for the murder-suicide itself, no way would she have been able to pull this off at an archery range. she probably would have given her son a treatable wound and then been subdued. i'm not in favor of abolishing guns but i think we should be realistic about the harm it does, having them all over the place.

well yeah, you're never gonna see me defend radical islam. but this lady pinned this squarely on ole' JC.

and as for the murder-suicide itself, no way would she have been able to pull this off at an archery range. she probably would have given her son a treatable wound and then been subdued. i'm not in favor of abolishing guns but i think we should be realistic about the harm it does, having them all over the place.


If you don't have a gun, you can get a knife.  If you don't have a knife, you can poison people.

If there's anything history has shown us about human nature, it's that we are especially creative at killing each other.

If you don't have a gun, you can get a knife.  If you don't have a knife, you can poison people.

If there's anything history has shown us about human nature, it's that we are especially creative at killing each other.
yeah, but guns make it a total snap. spree killers could take out maybe one, two people before getting subdued. as it is they can control whole crowds and kill a dozen people in a few seconds.

yeah, but guns make it a total snap. spree killers could take out maybe one, two people before getting subdued. as it is they can control whole crowds and kill a dozen people in a few seconds.

True, but gun control is a bit... moot...  in a nation with so many guns already out there (and a country to the south with almost as many guns per capita as us, if not more).

I couldn't chalk this one up to "red state mentality."  Sounds like the lady was just stark raving mad.  If she had no gun, sooner or later she would have whacked the kid with a carving knife or a baseball bat.  Granted, the kid had a better chance of surviving a knife or a club attack.

I'm not even sure I'd hold any party liable here.  I suppose there could future legislation to require shooting ranges to do background checks, but I doubt they'll go for that in Florida.  

It's just a frightful story.
:o  

I couldn't chalk this one up to "red state mentality."  Sounds like the lady was just stark raving mad.  If she had no gun, sooner or later she would have whacked the kid with a carving knife or a baseball bat.  Granted, the kid had a better chance of surviving a knife or a club attack.

I'm not even sure I'd hold any party liable here.  I suppose there could future legislation to require shooting ranges to do background checks, but I doubt they'll go for that in Florida.  

It's just a frightful story.
:o  
dammit, man, just let me blame bush.

dammit, man, just let me blame bush.


Well, Bush thinks he's God, so that might be a route to it!
:D

I couldn't chalk this one up to "red state mentality."  Sounds like the lady was just stark raving mad.  If she had no gun, sooner or later she would have whacked the kid with a carving knife or a baseball bat.  Granted, the kid had a better chance of surviving a knife or a club attack.


I also put this all under the heading "nutcase killing".

In fact, California (one of the most blue states in the country) has plenty of gun ranges where you can rent firearms for use inside the range.

BTW, you are much more likely to survive being shot then you are being stabbed.  Knives are much wider then bullets, so the likelyhood of severing (or even knicking) an artery is much larger.  Unless you are shot in the head or heart, you have a pretty good chance of making it to the ER.

But if a knife does damage to an artery, the odds are good you will bleed out before an ambulance arrives.

I also put this all under the heading "nutcase killing".

In fact, California (one of the most blue states in the country) has plenty of gun ranges where you can rent firearms for use inside the range.

BTW, you are much more likely to survive being shot then you are being stabbed.  Knives are much wider then bullets, so the likelyhood of severing (or even knicking) an artery is much larger.  Unless you are shot in the head or heart, you have a pretty good chance of making it to the ER.

But if a knife does damage to an artery, the odds are good you will bleed out before an ambulance arrives.


The bullet could also sever an artery, which would be just as bad.  I guess it depends on the caliber of the gun too.

Religion makes crazy people even crazier. A healthy belief in some higher power can quickly become a death cult for someone to whom life has dealt a few cheap shots.

A member of my immediate family is mentally ill, and religion has only made that person even nuttier if you ask me. 

Hard as it may be, people who are schizophrenic cannot be trusted with the lives of children.  The problem is how are we to take care of this problem ethically. 

Hard as it may be, people who are schizophrenic cannot be trusted with the lives of children.  The problem is how are we to take care of this problem ethically. 


Her son was a 20 year old young man.  This is a far cry from Andrea Yates.  She couldn't just drown the guy in the bathtub; she had to sneak up behind him and blow him away at the firing range!
:o

Religion makes crazy people even crazier. A healthy belief in some higher power can quickly become a death cult for someone to whom life has dealt a few cheap shots.


I place the accountability for something like this on the nutcase, not on the religion.  I am a pretty religious person, but if my pastor told me I need to kill somebody else or myself, I will tell him to get fracked, and go to the local law enforcement ASAP.

And there is nothing I have seen that said this lady was a member of any kind of a cult.  Her religion was probably just the voices in her own head.  Much like David Berkowitz tried to blame the killings on his neighbor's dog, Harvey.  Claimed Harvey was telling him to go out and kill people.

It was not Harvey's fault.  As a responsible adult, David should have told him "Bad Doggie" and ignored him.

I place the accountability for something like this on the nutcase, not on the religion.  I am a pretty religious person, but if my pastor told me I need to kill somebody else or myself, I will tell him to get fracked, and go to the local law enforcement ASAP.


Totally agree with you there.  It's not the religion.
I think that sometiems when you get into a cult, you tend to "idolize" the leader and will follow what the leader says...which is the individual's fault and the manupulative cult leader's as well, not the religion.
Be discerning always...regardless of what you believe in and what the leader says.

I understand that it is really easy to blame guns for the escalating violence in the world today, but I still blame the people.  There is something seriously wrong with our society.  It's not like murder is a new thing.  People have been killing each other since the beginning of time.  People were killing each other long before guns were even invented.  Sure, guns make it easier to kill more people faster...but like others have said, this woman seemed hell-bent on killing her son.  She could have just as easily attacked him in his sleep or something.  I think there is something in our society today that is making people lose their minds.  Assault rifles were available when I was a kid...but there were no school shootings.  Why?  What has changed?  What is wrong with us as a people?  That's the real question.

I understand that it is really easy to blame guns for the escalating violence in the world today, but I still blame the people.  There is something seriously wrong with our society.  It's not like murder is a new thing.  People have been killing each other since the beginning of time.  People were killing each other long before guns were even invented.  Sure, guns make it easier to kill more people faster...but like others have said, this woman seemed hell-bent on killing her son.  She could have just as easily attacked him in his sleep or something.  I think there is something in our society today that is making people lose their minds.  Assault rifles were available when I was a kid...but there were no school shootings.  Why?  What has changed?  What is wrong with us as a people?  That's the real question.


This is what I think the origin of the problem is overall.

Starting in the 80s, we seriously decreased funding for mental health.  Reagan was a big slasher of that, but he wasn't the only one.  As a result of this, we have a lot of people living free in society that should be in sanitariums.  This woman would have been in a mental hospital in a system with more mental health funding.

So basically, putting a greater emphasis on mental health would certainly alleviate some of this problem by taking more action when warning signs appear.

we have a lot of people living free in society that should be in sanitariums. 
well, let's say "should be getting help." sanitariums are by and large rather hideous institutions.

well, let's say "should be getting help." sanitariums are by and large rather hideous institutions.


True, but some people are hideous as well.

True, but some people are hideous as well.
hideous people help justify hideous institutions, and hideous institutions help create more hideous people. talk about a business!

hideous people help justify hideous institutions, and hideous institutions help create more hideous people. talk about a business!


Well, it is generally better to keep the hideous people away from the general public.

I don't know that more sanitariums are the answer.  I'm gonna have to agree with Tia that they are damn hideous places.  Plus...who's to say that none of us belong in one?  I mean, seriously.  Someone could argue that everyone is crazy in one way or another.  But where do we draw the line?  Where did America go off the deep end?  Are we too medicated?  Is it because of telivision and video games?  Road rage?  The economy?  Our education system?  Is it just because our population is bigger, so we just have more crazy people per capita?  What about drugs?  Is it because of illegal drugs?  Gangs?  There are a million reasons that we're all so wacky.  And I don't think it's going to go away any time soon. 

well, let's say "should be getting help." sanitariums are by and large rather hideous institutions.


Sanitarium is an antiquated word for facility to house tuberculosis patients.  Sometimes they dumped epileptics, alcoholics, and psychiatric cases in sanitariums as well; however, there aren't any of them left that I know of.  In fact, there are only a few "state hospitals" left.  These are the notorious overcrowded mental institutions that got shut down in the 1970s and 1980s via "deinstitutionalization." 

Now it's a half-assed system of short-term hospital stays, small-scale residential facilities (halfway and quarter-way houses), regimens of antipsychotic meds, and a lot of shuffling folks between homelessness, subsidized housing, jails, and whatnot.  There are a bunch of "characters" wandering around my town who used to be in the state hospital up the road or WOULD be in the state hospital up the road if that facility was still open. 

Yeah, the old state hospitals were hellholes, but now instead of living in one big hellhole, the mentally ill live in lots of little hellholes!
::)

Nowadays if you are "committed," it's generally on the "psych unit" of a hospital and then only for a few weeks tops while they decided what to do with you.  Even the institutions for the "criminally insane" (such as Bridgewater State Hospital here in Mass.) are now used for observation and diagnostics.  The dangerous crazies usually end up in isolation in state prisons where they only get crazier and crazier and crazier. 

Sanitarium is an antiquated word for facility to house tuberculosis patients.  Sometimes they dumped epileptics, alcoholics, and psychiatric cases in sanitariums as well; however, there aren't any of them left that I know of. 

Funny you should mention that Max.  My house is on the grounds of a former Tuberculosis Sanitarium.  They subdivided the plot where the Superintendent's residence used to stand, and my house is on one of those plots.  Really nice area, great views.

Amongst many dozens of wild stories I have heard, about 25 years ago they found a dead body in the on-grounds water tower.  Yummy.

;D

Funny you should mention that Max.  My house is on the grounds of a former Tuberculosis Sanitarium.  They subdivided the plot where the Superintendent's residence used to stand, and my house is on one of those plots.  Really nice area, great views.

Amongst many dozens of wild stories I have heard, about 25 years ago they found a dead body in the on-grounds water tower.  Yummy.

;D


Oh sure, a lot of these places were beautifully designed.  What happened in them was not so beautiful.  That's what gives old asylums and sanitariums their Gothic allure.  In the days before prefab, they had architects design the buildings and the grounds were laid out in a grand manner.  It was the ideology promoted by 19th century activists such as Dorothea Dix.  The thinking was if "lunatics" were housed in dignified surroundings it would be therapeutic.  However, as soon as they opened the asylums, they turned into warehouses for every schizophrenic, the epileptic, and the mentally retarded case in the city and the institutions became filthy, brutal, exploitative houses of horror.

The sanitariums were built with a similar ideology.  Consumption sufferers needed lots of fresh air and tranquility out in the country...but they too became warehouses of human misery.

Good thing you're not superstitious.  You'd be seeing ghosts everywhere!
:o

Good thing you're not superstitious.  You'd be seeing ghosts everywhere!
:o


Did I mention that there is a cemetary across the street? ???

Did I mention that there is a cemetary across the street? ???


Now I'm scared!  I'm going to hafta sleep with lights on!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/hiding.gif

Sanitarium is an antiquated word for facility to house tuberculosis patients.  Sometimes they dumped epileptics, alcoholics, and psychiatric cases in sanitariums as well; however, there aren't any of them left that I know of.  In fact, there are only a few "state hospitals" left.  These are the notorious overcrowded mental institutions that got shut down in the 1970s and 1980s via "deinstitutionalization." 

Now it's a half-assed system of short-term hospital stays, small-scale residential facilities (halfway and quarter-way houses), regimens of antipsychotic meds, and a lot of shuffling folks between homelessness, subsidized housing, jails, and whatnot.  There are a bunch of "characters" wandering around my town who used to be in the state hospital up the road or WOULD be in the state hospital up the road if that facility was still open. 

Yeah, the old state hospitals were hellholes, but now instead of living in one big hellhole, the mentally ill live in lots of little hellholes!
::)

Nowadays if you are "committed," it's generally on the "psych unit" of a hospital and then only for a few weeks tops while they decided what to do with you.  Even the institutions for the "criminally insane" (such as Bridgewater State Hospital here in Mass.) are now used for observation and diagnostics.  The dangerous crazies usually end up in isolation in state prisons where they only get crazier and crazier and crazier. 


It's stuff like this that convinces me the old way was better.

Separation is better than letting these people go homeless (or letting them get to the point that they terrorize the general populace).

It's stuff like this that convinces me the old way was better.

Separation is better than letting these people go homeless (or letting them get to the point that they terrorize the general populace).


Whoa!  Violence among the mentally ill is no higher than it is among the general population.  When a crazy person commits a crime, it tends to make bigger headlines.  That woman who shot her grown son at the firing range last week is a prime example. 

Mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of crime than to commit crime. 

It is true that people who suffer from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder often exhibit strange or disturbing behavior in public.  It is also upsetting to see mentally ill people homeless.  However, none of this qualifies as terrorizing the general populace.  Please! 
::)

Whoa!  Violence among the mentally ill is no higher than it is among the general population.  When a crazy person commits a crime, it tends to make bigger headlines.  That woman who shot her grown son at the firing range last week is a prime example. 

Mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of crime than to commit crime. 

It is true that people who suffer from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder often exhibit strange or disturbing behavior in public.  It is also upsetting to see mentally ill people homeless.  However, none of this qualifies as terrorizing the general populace.  Please! 
::)


Well, either way, it sounds like they are better off not vulnerable in a public setting.

Well, either way, it sounds like they are better off not vulnerable in a public setting.
well, dude, it's not that people think leaving the mentally ill on the streets is better than putting them in de facto concentration camps. it's that no one wants to spring for the concentration camps. too much money, and not enough people care. otherwise we'd be doing it your way, i'm sure.

well, dude, it's not that people think leaving the mentally ill on the streets is better than putting them in de facto concentration camps. it's that no one wants to spring for the concentration camps. too much money, and not enough people care. otherwise we'd be doing it your way, i'm sure.


Indeed...  they're too shortsighted to support what's practical.