I am sitting here right now listening to the CEO of a steel company, putting his hand out to the government to "save the industry".

I will not engage in whether the Buy American clause is good or bad.  However, as a steel industry insider I can tell you this...

For the past six years, the American steel industry has had its way with the steel consumers... in the United States.  Jacking up prices, withholding capacity from the market, manipulating prices, restricting product availability.  Steel has gone from being an industry in trouble to an industry that abused the rest of American manufacturers.  Some may say this is basically "payback".  Maybe they are even right.

But as much as I am a lifelong steel veteran, I have to utter these words:  Screw them.

In case readers here do not know, as an industry group, the largest importers of foreign steel into the USA is... maybe you guessed it... the steel industry.

can someone just tell me if I'm going to see any money?

can someone just tell me if I'm going to see any money?




Go get your purse.  Take a penny out of your purse.  Look at the penny.  OK, that's about all the money you're gonna see.
What?
You ain't got a penny?
Daaayum! Sign 'o the times!

Go get your purse.  Take a penny out of your purse.  Look at the penny.  OK, that's about all the money you're gonna see.
What?
You ain't got a penny?
Daaayum! Sign 'o the times!





Depending on the penny-it could be worth quite a bit. I once sold a penny for $20.  :o :o :o  NO JOKE!!!!




Cat

I have to tell this to a Union guy at my Church. He's 100% Buy American, he even gave me an e-mail about it.

It's not possible to buy 100% American immediately.  That means putting people back to work.  I'll believe it when I see employment numbers go up.

The buy American clause works to the extent that the stimulus package is intended to stimulate our economy -- not anyone else's.

At first, I was thinking these clauses are bad, but honestly, it's not such a bad idea when you look at how much all of our trading partners use protectionism.

I TRY to buy American when I can-but it is not possible to do. If I must buy something that is NOT American I try VERY hard not to buy something that says "Made in China". Unfortunately, that is almost impossible to do also.


Cat

These guys need a swift kick in the ass!  Not just once, every morning for the next five years!

These guys need a swift kick in the ass!  Not just once, every morning for the next five years!




Sad thing is, two of those three guys they showed testifying at the senate hearings on  60 Minutes tried to hire me a few years ago.  I declined.  ;D

U.S. manufacturing is at its lowest level in years, and employing fewer workers all the time.

Depending on the penny-it could be worth quite a bit. I once sold a penny for $20.  :o :o :o  NO JOKE!!!!



And next year you'll be able to sell $20 for one penny!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/coffee.gif

Well, I'm definitely opposed to the "Buy American" clause in the stimulus package. The current economic crisis has affected every corner of the world, from Europe to Asia, to South America, to Africa. Homeowners in Iceland are getting foreclosed on. Factory workers in China are getting laid off. People in Japan are losing their jobs. Everyone's suffering.

It'll only make the problem worse if countries start putting up trade barriers around themselves. First, one country does it, then another does it to retaliate, then another. All this will end up doing is severely damaging overall demand in the global economy.

Remember history. During the depression of the 1930s, countries imposed protectionist tariffs to shelter their domestic economies, which just resulted in all of them getting hurt even more. Surely, we can't make the same mistake again. The nations of the world got into this crisis together, and they can only get out of it together.

Well, I'm definitely opposed to the "Buy American" clause in the stimulus package. The current economic crisis has affected every corner of the world, from Europe to Asia, to South America, to Africa. Homeowners in Iceland are getting foreclosed on. Factory workers in China are getting laid off. People in Japan are losing their jobs. Everyone's suffering.

It'll only make the problem worse if countries start putting up trade barriers around themselves. First, one country does it, then another does it to retaliate, then another. All this will end up doing is severely damaging overall demand in the global economy.

Remember history. During the depression of the 1930s, countries imposed protectionist tariffs to shelter their domestic economies, which just resulted in all of them getting hurt even more. Surely, we can't make the same mistake again. The nations of the world got into this crisis together, and they can only get out of it together.

The analogy doesn't really apply here.

America is extremely open in its markets currently.  Most of our trading partners really aren't.  Europe likes to scorn us for various things, but they can't really say anything about these clauses given how protectionist they are towards anyone outside of the EU.

Canada and a lot of South America and East Asia are also protectionist.

Again, if we implement a little bit of protectionism, the rest of the world is just gonna have to suck it up.  They've gotten way too comfortable with our gluttonous consumption.  It hasn't been good for our economy, and it's not good for theirs either.

Extreme imbalances in trade lead to vulnerability.  Over the last few decades, we've improperly implemented comparative advantage.  We've focused all this effort on outsourcing, but we forget that we have to produce things ourselves, lest we become utterly dependent on foreign investment.

....and where are we now?  Utterly dependent on foreign investment.

It's not the buy American clauses that are bad in this stimulus bill, it's the fact that we're going to massively increase the money supply, which ultimately devalues our currency.  When our currency takes a big hit in value, this will scare away foreign investors.  Then the real shi* will hit the fan.

Again I will not post comment on whether the Buy American clause is good or bad.

But I will ask this question.  Will those executives who were at the Senate hearings, sticking their hands out, stop buying work rolls made in China?  Will they demand that their refractory suppliers only send them bricks made in the US of A?  Will the one executive (who I shall not name) stop sending "shared services" jobs to Eastern Europe?  Will the two companies who operate private jets (one of them who has 3, which always fly with a personal valet) sell them off?

My opinion, if you are going to have a Buy American clause then you gotta have a tight program, not one that is loosey-goosey as this one.

I'm not going to comment on this package, but historically all the industrial nations have started their industrialization processes under protectionist policies.  Brital had the "corn laws" which protected lots more than the ag sector.  We had protective tariffs for ever so long.  Maybe, since what we really need is to re-industrialize, protectionism is in order.  Just a thought.

Again I will not post comment on whether the Buy American clause is good or bad.

But I will ask this question.  Will those executives who were at the Senate hearings, sticking their hands out, stop buying work rolls made in China?  Will they demand that their refractory suppliers only send them bricks made in the US of A?  Will the one executive (who I shall not name) stop sending "shared services" jobs to Eastern Europe?  Will the two companies who operate private jets (one of them who has 3, which always fly with a personal valet) sell them off?

My opinion, if you are going to have a Buy American clause then you gotta have a tight program, not one that is loosey-goosey as this one.


Good points...  Again, I can't say I support this bailout, and while I do support the spirit of the "buy American" clauses, I seriously doubt they will be consistently applied.

The United States needs to be able to support itself with necessities.  Buy American, as I read it and practice it, means we have to be able to supply our own food, clothing, shelter, and means of transportation. That is what we have lost and that is what we have to regain or we will end up a very poor suburb of China

The United States needs to be able to support itself with necessities.  Buy American, as I read it and practice it, means we have to be able to supply our own food, clothing, shelter, and means of transportation. That is what we have lost and that is what we have to regain or we will end up a very poor suburb of China


Unfortunately that's not easy to do.  Try to find bed sheets made in the USA, or a pair of jeans (my last pair was made in Mexico). 

And aren't we already a poor suburb of China?

The United States needs to be able to support itself with necessities.  Buy American, as I read it and practice it, means we have to be able to supply our own food, clothing, shelter, and means of transportation. That is what we have lost and that is what we have to regain or we will end up a very poor suburb of China


We do make most of our own food.  We're actually the world's largest exporter of food.

Clothing will always be a Third World industry.  You can't really expect many textiles to remain here.  I know from personal experience how futile that battle is.  My area of NC was once a powerhouse of clothing and furniture.  Now, we're having to restructure toward the tech industry, which honestly, is a far better choice for a First World nation.

Shelter is only a problem to the extent that we seem ok with having Mexicans build everything.  It may not be PC to say it, but if illegals are building all your shelter, you can only expect the quality and safety to go downhill.  We also have far too many road construction crews made up of almost entirely illegals.

As far as cars go, America produces them just fine without unions getting in the way.  Observe the differences in profitability between the Big 3 and the Toyota, BMW, and Mercedes plants we have.

We do make most of our own food.  We're actually the world's largest exporter of food.



Yeah, especially corn spliced with squid genes!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/frankie.gif

Shelter is only a problem to the extent that we seem ok with having Mexicans build everything.  It may not be PC to say it, but if illegals are building all your shelter, you can only expect the quality and safety to go downhill.  We also have far too many road construction crews made up of almost entirely illegals.




I work in construction. You cannot blame the work on the immigrants, legal or not, it is the born and bred American businessmen who are shortchanging the public with shoddy work, cutting corners, and inferior materials.  The foreign workers work just as hard and just as well as anyone else. 

The United States needs to be able to support itself with necessities.  Buy American, as I read it and practice it, means we have to be able to supply our own food, clothing, shelter, and means of transportation. That is what we have lost and that is what we have to regain or we will end up a very poor suburb of China


Speaking necessities, the question is, "How much stuff do we need versus how much stuff do we want?"

The argument is if we manufacture consumer products in America, they'll cost more money.  If Americans insist on buying piles of stuff every week on the super-cheap, we need to rely on Chinese labor.  If we require fewer products, such as kitchen gadgets, apparel, and entertainment media, then we might be able to start manufacturing in the U.S. again. 

The second part of this is the destruction of organized labor in the U.S.  If our wages are going to remain stagnant compared to the actual cost of living, then we NEED super cheap products from China!  The "unions are bad" message has taken so well among American Schmoes, it might take a generation for the working classes to figure out that "global economy" means the rich get richer and you get deeper in debt!
::)

Yeah, especially corn spliced with squid genes!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/frankie.gif


You know what's funny?  Europe makes a big deal out of GM food, but the real reason they do that is to further protectionism for their own farmers.

I work in construction. You cannot blame the work on the immigrants, legal or not, it is the born and bred American businessmen who are shortchanging the public with shoddy work, cutting corners, and inferior materials.  The foreign workers work just as hard and just as well as anyone else. 


If you work in construction, then you should know how miscommunication is often an issue.  A certain friend of mine has told me some interesting stories about what he goes through on certain work sites.  I'll let him reveal who he is if he wants to, but he's a member of this site.  When the majority of a crew doesn't know English and the contractor is only partially fluent in Spanish, problems arise.

The materials are sometimes an issue as well, but making sure your labor can at least communicate properly with the contractor and every other work group (like electricians) should be paramount.  If the illegals that are part of your crew can't manage that, then yeah, it really is an issue.

You know what's funny?  Europe makes a big deal out of GM food, but the real reason they do that is to further protectionism for their own farmers.


They want to feed themeselves; what bunch of azzholes!
:P

They want to feed themeselves; what bunch of azzholes!
:P


I'm just suggesting they be honest about why they won't let us export much to them.  They shouldn't dress it up as a morality/health issue, because it really isn't.

I'm just suggesting they be honest about why they won't let us export much to them.  They shouldn't dress it up as a morality/health issue, because it really isn't.


Yes, European agricultural producers look out for they're own interests.  They'd be nuts not to.  However, Western Europe has for more than a generation held much more stringent environmental regulations than the U.S.  They are much more likely to base policy on science than on biggest bang for the buck, which is what the U.S. does.  When it comes to hormonally enhanced and GM food, the preponderance of scientific evidence suggests it is detrimental to human health and ecological stability.  So the Europeans don't want to market these products.  What's the problem?  It's not as if Europe produces no genetic engineers.  If Germany or France or Spain wanted to start growing GM foods, they could start tomorrow, but they don't, so why would they buy them from us?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nixweiss.gif

Yes, European agricultural producers look out for they're own interests.  They'd be nuts not to.  However, Western Europe has for more than a generation held much more stringent environmental regulations than the U.S.  They are much more likely to base policy on science than on biggest bang for the buck, which is what the U.S. does.  When it comes to hormonally enhanced and GM food, the preponderance of scientific evidence suggests it is detrimental to human health and ecological stability.  So the Europeans don't want to market these products.  What's the problem?  It's not as if Europe produces no genetic engineers.  If Germany or France or Spain wanted to start growing GM foods, they could start tomorrow, but they don't, so why would they buy them from us?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nixweiss.gif


...because they simultaneously expect us to open all of our markets up to them.

Part of the reason why America is slowly falling in its standard of living is because we enacted trade agreements with other countries that forced us to open our markets without expecting much in return.  NAFTA is a good example, but there are others involving Europe.

The point is that agriculture is a perfect example of Europe trying to act like it closes its markets over quality issues when it really is just continuing the same protectionism it does with everything else.  Then, they have the nerve to expect us to continue being as open as possible with their products.

So, on the one hand, we can blame our politicians for enacting these agreements, but on the other hand, we can also blame the rest of the world for being hypocritical in their expectations of our trade policies.

The funny thing is that this major imbalance of trade hurts them just as much as it hurts us.  Because the world depends on our consumption, if we start consuming less due to the downturn in the economy, it hurts their economies too.  They've essentially grown too comfortable with our gluttonous consumption.

If you work in construction, then you should know how miscommunication is often an issue.  A certain friend of mine has told me some interesting stories about what he goes through on certain work sites.  I'll let him reveal who he is if he wants to, but he's a member of this site.  When the majority of a crew doesn't know English and the contractor is only partially fluent in Spanish, problems arise.

The materials are sometimes an issue as well, but making sure your labor can at least communicate properly with the contractor and every other work group (like electricians) should be paramount.  If the illegals that are part of your crew can't manage that, then yeah, it really is an issue.



If a contractor hires anyone who is not fluent in the language then that is the fault of the contractor.  If there are people on the job who can't do the job but are retained, that is also the fault of the contractor.  It is time to start pointing the finger where it belongs.

Clothing will always be a Third World industry.  You can't really expect many textiles to remain here.  I know from personal experience how futile that battle is.  My area of NC was once a powerhouse of clothing and furniture.  Now, we're having to restructure toward the tech industry, which honestly, is a far better choice for a First World nation.



A year or so ago I heard an interview on NPR with a N. Carolina textile manufacturer.  He claimed that he was forced to relocate his production to China by WalMart.  Said that if he didn't, they would no longer use him as a supplier even though he was competitive and making a profit producing in the US.  Go figure.

I work in construction. You cannot blame the work on the immigrants, legal or not, it is the born and bred American businessmen who are shortchanging the public with shoddy work, cutting corners, and inferior materials.  The foreign workers work just as hard and just as well as anyone else. 


You can take it a step further and say that the consumer is the problem. Everyone wants the best at the cheapest price. So, customer A gets three bids from contractors x, y, and z. Z is the cheapest, so contractor z gets the job. Contractor z might be naive and not know he's bidding too low, but most times contractor z is going to cut every corner possible, and that includes using illegal labor.

I've stepped onto jobsites for the first time and literally had superintendents say "You guys speak English!". I've seen many a crew foreman whose only apparent ability is that they are bilingual. Sad, sad, sad...

Most illegals I've seen on sites do work hard and fast - I'll give them that. Speed can compensate for mistakes up to a point. istm the trades that have smaller rooms of margin for error are the ones still done by Americans.

The problem is not so much that they are illegal, it's that they are unskilled and do not speak or read any English. That is a problem when they need to use a set of blueprints.

I don't have problems with any nationality of work crew so long they know what they are doing (speaking English helps too  ;)).


A year or so ago I heard an interview on NPR with a N. Carolina textile manufacturer.  He claimed that he was forced to relocate his production to China by WalMart.  Said that if he didn't, they would no longer use him as a supplier even though he was competitive and making a profit producing in the US.   Go figure.


What?!?! Do you happen to have a link to the broadcast or a news story about this?

signature banned as well

A year or so ago I heard an interview on NPR with a N. Carolina textile manufacturer.  He claimed that he was forced to relocate his production to China by WalMart.  Said that if he didn't, they would no longer use him as a supplier even though he was competitive and making a profit producing in the US.   Go figure.

Remember when Daddy Bush gave Same Walton that Medal of Freedom back in 1992?  Went all the way to Arkansas to hand it to the old f**ker on his death bed.  That's the mentality we're dealing with.  Freedom means the freedom to make as much money for the fewest people possible at the greatest cost to the United States! If you can do one better than old Sam in that department Daddy Bush might give you a medal too!
::)

If a contractor hires anyone who is not fluent in the language then that is the fault of the contractor.  If there are people on the job who can't do the job but are retained, that is also the fault of the contractor.  It is time to start pointing the finger where it belongs.


I agree.  We should point the finger at the illegals AND companies.

Deport the illegals and arrest the business owners.

Otherwise, there's no point to having citizenship laws.

What?!?! Do you happen to have a link to the broadcast or a news story about this?

signature banned as well


No, sorry.  It was a few years ago.  I heard it on my way home from work one day.  The guy wouldn't identify himself for fear of getting dropped.  That was the threat that made him move to China.

What?!?! Do you happen to have a link to the broadcast or a news story about this?

signature banned as well



http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:uMJM3qCAytcJ:www.changetowin.org/fileadmin/pdf/walmart-china-job-report.pdf+walmart+manufacturers+forced+to+move+to+china&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

http://books.google.com/books?id=Lt6Zr_C6FooC&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=walmart+manufacturers+forced+to+move+to+china&source=bl&ots=3Yan1FeACg&sig=LA8XoQ3RUzn4_9Wrryi1loFrK9w&hl=en&ei=pEikSaJ94fy2B_CH_dkE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result


That is just a few sources that make that claim. There was also a documentary about Walmart that states the same thing. One of the MANY reasons we don't do Walmart.




Cat

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:uMJM3qCAytcJ:www.changetowin.org/fileadmin/pdf/walmart-china-job-report.pdf+walmart+manufacturers+forced+to+move+to+china&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

http://books.google.com/books?id=Lt6Zr_C6FooC&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=walmart+manufacturers+forced+to+move+to+china&source=bl&ots=3Yan1FeACg&sig=LA8XoQ3RUzn4_9Wrryi1loFrK9w&hl=en&ei=pEikSaJ94fy2B_CH_dkE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result


That is just a few sources that make that claim. There was also a documentary about Walmart that states the same thing. One of the MANY reasons we don't do Walmart.




Cat


My wonderful "research assistant" came through again.  Thanks babe.

My wonderful "research assistant" came through again.  Thanks babe.



:-* :-* :-*



Cat

As far as cars go, America produces them just fine without unions getting in the way.  Observe the differences in profitability between the Big 3 and the Toyota, BMW, and Mercedes plants we have.

Ah, don;t worry about even though I can't stand the UAW(United Auto Workers Union)(Ron Gettlefinger and his thugs)if that card check bill passes in the senate the UAW is gonna unionize Toyota plants in the US in no time(say 3-5 years from now) and than all Honda plants will be unionized too right after Toyota will. In 5 years if that card check bill passes in the senate the whole workforce in the US will change dramitically.

As much as I hate this stimulus bill, I seriously doubt that Toyota or the others will unionize.  I think even the workers themselves would be against it -- especially when looking at what they have done to the Big 3.

As much as I hate this stimulus bill, I seriously doubt that Toyota or the others will unionize.  I think even the workers themselves would be against it -- especially when looking at what they have done to the Big 3.


Yeah but truly looking at it GM was the only one of the Domestic Big 3 that the UAW even had a role in bankrupting. I mean Ford is not in bankruptcy(yet anyway) and Chrysler lost its way once Mercedes Benz acquired ownership of them so the UAW is not all to blame for the Domestics problems except for GM. My thing is Toyota is the Japanese version of GM and the UAW may try to get Toyota to paytime health care bills like they did GM. Ford is smaller ala like Honda than GM or Toyota.

Yeah but truly looking at it GM was the only one of the Domestic Big 3 that the UAW even had a role in bankrupting. I mean Ford is not in bankruptcy(yet anyway) and Chrysler lost its way once Mercedes Benz acquired ownership of them so the UAW is not all to blame for the Domestics problems except for GM. My thing is Toyota is the Japanese version of GM and the UAW may try to get Toyota to paytime health care bills like they did GM. Ford is smaller ala like Honda than GM or Toyota.


interesting...  If they do that, I have a feeling Toyota will look elsewhere for building new plants.

interesting...  If they do that, I have a feeling Toyota will look elsewhere for building new plants.


Why do you hate America?

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/flash.gif

Why do you hate America?

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/flash.gif


Well, all I know is that Toyota hates paying people more than they have to, but I suppose that could be said for any company.