Since I ended up deleting the other topic since most of it seemed to be everybody attacking each others opinions, I am creating a new topic to discuss the situation in Israel. Hopefully this topic doesn't get like that. I'll start off by saying that I don't really think either side is interested in peace. I think Israel went way overboard in their invasion of Gaza, they may have a right to defend their nation but all that over some rockets doesn't seem to be right. Hamas on the other hand is a terrorist organization and I don't support them at all. I don't understand why there isn't a Palestinian state yet. I also definitely think the US is way too pro Israel, we veto like every criticism of Israel by the UN, it only makes us a target. Why do you think 9/11 happened...because they hated our freedom? sure...

I limit myself to post one post per IvP thread. 

So here's mine:

If you're going to call either side's actions an atrocity, start by getting some perspective, because this one barely registers on the atrocity scoreboard, nor the initials signed on the high score list.  Hell, it's taken 60 years for the entire nation of Israel to even work its way into the "mid-range wars" category.  The recent skirmish in Gaza is just that; another skirmish with no strategic impact.

The reason IvP threads explode so quickly is because neither side is using the same yardstick.  Eventually, someone accuses someone else's side of genocide, and the thread erupts into a massive flamewar, even though neither side's actually defined what they mean by "genocide".

My yardstick for genocide isn't kill ratios ("100 of their dead per 1 of our dead"), it's the video-game yardstick of percentage-of-enemy-left-breathing (and "~1000 Palestinians dead out of ~1M+ in Gaza" isn't even getting warmed up, fer Dobbs' sake, the Hutus and Tutsis did better than that using nothing more than homemade machetes).  I'll also accept a yardstick based on the total number of dead (namely the ability for a leader to sign his initials on the world's high score board, but by that measure, the Israelis' sub-100K score doesn't even get them into the top 30).

By either of those standards, the recent IvP unpleasantness barely qualifies as a battle.  By WW2 standards, it barely qualifies as a few hours on any of countless long-forgotten islands in the Pacific or mud-strewn battlefields in Europe. 

The other side of the argument consists of people who use kill ratios (100:1 in favor of the Israelis) as the yardstick by which they measure genocide.  Given that yardstick, it's hopelessly one-sided in favor of the Israelis.  I'm actually OK with that.  I disagree with their choice of yardstick, but not about the facts; where we differ is in our choice of yardsticks by which we interpret those facts.  Given those differences, it's only reasonable that we come to different conclusions, it wouldn't be the first time people on the Internet have disagreed about stuff, and it won't be the last. 

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

If I gotta take sides, then wake me when the Israelis want to genocide the Palestinians, or when the Palestinians are able to genocide the Israelis.  Until one of these two things happens, the two sides will continue to skirmish, clogging the borders with random casualties, the news broadcasts with footage of explosions, and the Intertubes with flamewars, for the rest of our lives. 

As I said upfront:  It's an IvP thread.  This, therefore, is my first (and last) post.  Have fun, and remember that if you're not getting shot at, it's only ones and zeroes, which puts you ahead of 99.9% of the world's population, so don't take any of it personally.

It certainly would be an odd genocide by either side of this conflict.

Palestinian populations are exploding, and the jewish Israeli population is steadily growing too.  Neither "genotype" is going away...

It seems to me that the problem goes back to the 1940's zionist saying in regard to Palestine and the jewish people - "A country without a people, a people without a country."  Given that attitude, how could there be anything but conflict?

God gave Israel to Abraham and his descendants. This is the only country to do so.

But since the Israelites took Israel for Granted, Israel got destroyed by many of their enemies.

God gave Israel to Abraham and his descendants. This is the only country to do so.

But since the Israelites took Israel for Granted, Israel got destroyed by many of their enemies.


Did God give specific boarders? 

I limit myself to post one post per IvP thread. 

So here's mine:
...

Yep, agree with all of that, except for the use of "genocide" as a verb.


Since I ended up deleting the other topic since most of it seemed to be everybody attacking each others opinions, I am creating a new topic to discuss the situation in Israel.
Ah, I thought there was another thread talking about this..


I think Israel went way overboard in their invasion of Gaza, they may have a right to defend their nation but all that over some rockets doesn't seem to be right. Hamas on the other hand is a terrorist organization and I don't support them at all
True - I also fervently wish that criticism of the IDF excesses (including bombing the UN buildings) wasn't taken as somehow supporting Hamas: as Shakespeare once said "a plague o' both your houses".


God gave Israel to Abraham and his descendants. This is the only country to do so.

er... whose word do we have for that?

Just think of all the trouble it would have saved if God had decided to let everyone else know he was giving Israel away - you'd think he might have dictated something to Mohammed while he was writing the Koran to prevent all this trouble, wouldn't you?

Did God give specific boarders? 


Yes he did as a matter of fact.

http://www.worldreligions.psu.edu/images/artimages/maps/ancient israel.jpg

No "right of return" for Palestinians who lived there 40 years ago, but "right of return" for any Jew on the face of the Earth, even if he lives in Red Hook and his great grandmother migrated from the Ukraine!  Why?  Because God is a real estate agent!

::)

God gave Israel to Abraham and his descendants. This is the only country to do so.

But since the Israelites took Israel for Granted, Israel got destroyed by many of their enemies.


Apparently God is a regifter.  Jerusalem was given to the Moslems, and some of it was givien to the Christians too.

God must have a great sense of humor.  He didn;t give these poeple somewhere nice, like Lake Tahoe or the Virgin Islands.  Nope... He gave three religions this dusty, hot, strip of land that is devoid of much in the way of natural resources.  ;D

Yes he did as a matter of fact.

http://www.worldreligions.psu.edu/images/artimages/maps/ancient israel.jpg


I feel compelled to compare it to today's map just for the heck of it.

Apparently God is a regifter.  Jerusalem was given to the Moslems, and some of it was givien to the Christians too.

God must have a great sense of humor.  He didn;t give these poeple somewhere nice, like Lake Tahoe or the Virgin Islands.  Nope... He gave three religions this dusty, hot, strip of land that is devoid of much in the way of natural resources.   ;D


Isn't Jerusalem considered one of the only centers of the three major religions? 

Isn't Jerusalem considered one of the only centers of the three major religions? 


The Church of the Subgenius has a place there?
???

The Church of the Subgenius has a place there?
???


Nope don't think so.  However the History Channel says I'm right.

http://www.history.com/minisites/jerusalem

Yes he did as a matter of fact.

http://www.worldreligions.psu.edu/images/artimages/maps/ancient israel.jpg

A couple of things come to mind looking at that map: Hamas were given not only bits of Syria, but also a lisp.

I'm surprised Ammon has any, as the Ammonites are well, kind of fossilized in their thinking

Here's an interesting article written in 1948 by King Abdullah. It's probably common knowledge, but it opened my eyes slightly more to the current situation and to the reason why the Arab world dislikes America so much. It's pretty lengthy but I managed it.

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html