Abortion is something I'm more right-leaning on. To be honest, it really doesn't make sense that most lefties tend to be pro choice.

Yeah, I know you guys could say Whoa dude you're a liberal, how hypocritical can you get? ;)

Well I'd say that I basically just think for myself and don't follow a set line with everything (I might happen to be more left wing overall, but that's not on purpose). Regardless of what it makes me, I just try to be practical with what works best. I'm all about respecting life, and abortion just seems like "polite murder".

I admit when I was like 13-15 and started paying attention to issues like this, I sided with the "woman's right to choose". It initially made sense to me because of the personal freedom aspect. But I think what slowly changed my mind was hearing stories of deadbeats (i.e. freaked out teens with an unplanned pregnancy, or just irresponsible types) who were quick to get abortions with little or no concern for their unborn child. That could go for both guys and girls too - like either a young woman who is set on getting rid of a baby herself, or she could have a dirtbag boyfriend who pressures her into it.

That always ticked me off, it just seems selfish and compassionateless. If you don't want a kid, hey that's your business, but I'd say to at least give them a shot at a good life (say, by putting it up for adoption). Babies don't ask to be born, nor do they choose their parents.

Abortion is something I'm more right-leaning on. To be honest, it really doesn't make sense that most lefties tend to be pro choice.

Yeah, I know you guys could say Whoa dude you're a liberal, how hypocritical can you get? ;)

Well I'd say that I basically just think for myself and don't follow a set line with everything (I might happen to be more left wing overall, but that's not on purpose). Regardless of what it makes me, I just try to be practical with what works best. I'm all about respecting life, and abortion just seems like "polite murder".

I admit when I was like 13-15 and started paying attention to issues like this, I sided with the "woman's right to choose". It initially made sense to me because of the personal freedom aspect. But I think what slowly changed my mind was hearing stories of deadbeats (i.e. freaked out teens with an unplanned pregnancy, or just irresponsible types) who were quick to get abortions with little or no concern for their unborn child. That could go for both guys and girls too - like either a young woman who is set on getting rid of a baby herself, or she could have a dirtbag boyfriend who pressures her into it.

That always ticked me off, it just seems selfish and compassionateless. If you don't want a kid, hey that's your business, but I'd say to at least give them a shot at a good life (say, by putting it up for adoption). Babies don't ask to be born, nor do they choose their parents.



I gotta disagree... I don't think there are a lot of woman who think of abortion as their own personal form of birth control...its a very emotional, invasive thing.... sure there are some people who do but they are the exception not the rule.

I truly believe in a woman's right to choose. I for one am not maternal...I never wanted kids and if I ever got pregnant I would have no choice...because the idea of child birth is a vile to me as being a mother....that being said I act responsibly.

However there are some circumstances, events you can't plan for...or sometimes you try to do everything right and it still doesn't go as planned.... in other words, sometimes women are forced to have sex when they don't want to or they learn that the birth control method they have chosen is not 100% effective.



I say my body my choice no one has the right to tell me what to do with...



But happy birthday to you anyway.



Q

Ever since "Juno" came out, there are more births than birth-control.

Sadly, there are more pregnant teenagers than before.

You could argue that the people who choose life are also pro-choice...since they're, like, choosing life.

I just don't think it is anyone else's damned business.

ETA: what snoz said.

^ You know, normally I agree and I don't like the government (or anyone) getting into people's personal business simply because they dont like it or disagree on some level. But here's the thing - the rules are different when someone's life or their safety is at stake. Then I think it actually becomes almost your duty as a good citizen to step in.

For example, let's say you're in public and you don't like the way someone is discliplining their kid (or for that matter, NOT discipling) - then I would say to back off because it's their life. Stuff like that might be disagreeable, but as long as no laws are being broken, people have the right to do what they want. However, if you have a suspicion the kid is being beaten or abused, then it is other people's business to report it or try and do something. Same with any domestic violence.

The point being, whether it's fully developed or not, a fetus is still a human life that ought to be protected. I thought Liberal philosophies were about compassion, sympathy and humanity for everyone (that's the part of it that appeals to me), so it seems illogical that many of them say it's perfectly okay to take a life.

Abortion might not be "breaking the law" (unless it's a minor doing it without permission) but on the other side of my own argument, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good. It's just a matter of common sense.

^ You know, normally I agree and I don't like the government (or anyone) getting into people's personal business simply because they dont like it or disagree on some level. But here's the thing - the rules are different when someone's life or their safety is at stake. Then I think it actually becomes almost your duty as a good citizen to step in.

For example, let's say you're in public and you don't like the way someone is discliplining their kid (or for that matter, NOT discipling) - then I would say to back off because it's their life. Stuff like that might be disagreeable, but as long as no laws are being broken, people have the right to do what they want. However, if you have a suspicion the kid is being beaten or abused, then it is other people's business to report it or try and do something. Same with any domestic violence.

The point being, whether it's fully developed or not, a fetus is still a human life that ought to be protected. I thought Liberal philosophies were about compassion, sympathy and humanity for everyone (that's the part of it that appeals to me), so it seems illogical that many of them say it's perfectly okay to take a life.

Abortion might not be "breaking the law" (unless it's a minor doing it without permission) but on the other side of my own argument, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good. It's just a matter of common sense.


Say you're butting into someone's business about getting an abortion.  You don't know the circumstances.  You don't know what they're going through or what they're thinking, but you decide to take it upon yourself and say, "Hey!  You're a murderer!" or some other similar response.  That doesn't sit well with me because it is none of your f**king business whatsoever, especially if you don't know the circumstances behind their decision to do so.  They could have been raped, they could have been the victim of incest, they could run the risk of dying if they have a kid.  The point is, YOU DON'T KNOW, yet you feel that it is your civic duty to judge them and call it by the name "common sense".  You think that is a fine and dandy thing to do?  Go right ahead, but don't expect me to feel sympathy for you when you get chewed out or punched in the face.

Public assholery by parents and their children is another can of worms that I won't get into on here because I could write PAGES of it.  I will, however, say that if the parents are being TOO harsh (read: beating the snot out of the children or threatening them with certain death), I will report it.  If the parent is just yelling for them to be quiet or ignoring the child's crap, it doesn't bother me because I'm used to it, although I'm glad to say that Jason is a perfect angel in public. :D  If the kid is being a particular douchebag, I will whip out the sarcasm on the parents, but I will NOT tell them, "Hey!  You suck as a parent!"  However, this is the difference between abortions and people being stupid in public: abortions aren't publicized on a global scale.  Asshattery by humans IS.  This also brings me to the thought that some of these so called "parents" were talked out of getting an abortion because it was the "right" thing to do.

The point of liberals being pro-choice is in the name: pro-CHOICE.  Us left leaners are big on choice, ya know, and whether the people involved want to keep it, abort it, or put it up for adoption is THEIR choice.  It should not be up for discussion with anyone else.

It may be "Polite Murder," I dont really know.  However, I am not religious.  I dont believe in a soul.  I dont believe that you get a soul upon conception.  Life might begin at conception.  Is it a baby though?  Why are humans so high and mighty as to think we get to choose?  We also have no objections to killing other earthly creatures.

I have always wondered if a lot of anti-abortion people actually just sit there and fume about abortion all the time?  Is it really hurting them that much?  For some reason they think that girls who believe in pro-choice are all thinking they will get pregnant and just go have an abortion.  Do they think that pro-choice people want to kill babies?    

Do I agree with the way abortions are done sometimes? No.  But I also dont want helpless girls dying because of alternative ways to get an abortion.  Everyone uses it as a form of birth control.? Just like everyone abuses welfare also?  It was said before that this is an exception to the rule.  

I have asked myself, if I had a girlfriend who got pregnant, how would I feel if she wanted to get an abortion.  As it stands, it is her choice overall.  Thats why I am pro choice.  It is not my decision, it is up to the girl who is getting an abortion.

Adoption is a great option.  I dont knock it.  I also think the world is overpopulated.  Why have more kids that have a great chance of getting left behind, or are put in orphanages?  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  Would any of those who are anti-abortion be willing to help out those who need it?  Probably not.  "Abortion is murder, she got herself in that position, she should have the baby.  Hell no I wont give up some of my hard earned money to help."

If we overturn Roe vs Wade, I think we are going in the wrong direction.      

Whether abortion is legal or illegal, women will get them anyway and I would rather have a woman (regardless of her age) go to some clinic and be seen by a trained doctor than go to some back alley to see some butcher who doesn't know what the hell he is doing just to make a buck on some poor, scared woman.

I don't want some dude in Washington telling me what kind of medical procedure I can or can't have. What business is it of his? This is a question between a woman, her family, & her doctor. No one else has ANY right to tell her she can or can't.

Question: for those who are anti-choice, are they willing to support the child of an unplanned pregnancy? You look at Congress' record and 9 times out of 10, the so-call "pro-life" faction will often vote against child health care, early education, day care, etc. etc.


Cat

Whether abortion is legal or illegal, women will get them anyway and I would rather have a woman (regardless of her age) go to some clinic and be seen by a trained doctor than go to some back alley to see some butcher who doesn't know what the hell he is doing just to make a buck on some poor, scared woman.


Cat


Exactly.  Better to happen in a sterile environment by a trained doctor than a back alley by who knows who.

I am anti-abortion but I am pro choice.  I don't think it is right to force your beliefs on other people.  Like Jess said, you don't know what the reasons are for their decision and it is none of your business unless they tell you themselves.  I am of the mind if you think it is wrong, don't do it, but remember that just because you think something is wrong doesn't mean everyone does.

Edit:
This is coming from a Christian who is politically middle of the road but tends to lean to the right.  It isn't always left-wingers that are pro-choice.

Whether abortion is legal or illegal, women will get them anyway and I would rather have a woman (regardless of her age) go to some clinic and be seen by a trained doctor than go to some back alley to see some butcher who doesn't know what the hell he is doing just to make a buck on some poor, scared woman.

I don't want some dude in Washington telling me what kind of medical procedure I can or can't have. What business is it of his? This is a question between a woman, her family, & her doctor. No one else has ANY right to tell her she can or can't.

Question: for those who are anti-choice, are they willing to support the child of an unplanned pregnancy? You look at Congress' record and 9 times out of 10, the so-call "pro-life" faction will often vote against child health care, early education, day care, etc. etc.


Cat



You are so right. Karma for that.

You are so right. Karma for that.



Right back at ya.



Exactly.  Better to happen in a sterile environment by a trained doctor than a back alley by who knows who.

I am anti-abortion but I am pro choice.  I don't think it is right to force your beliefs on other people.  Like Jess said, you don't know what the reasons are for their decision and it is none of your business unless they tell you themselves.  I am of the mind if you think it is wrong, don't do it, but remember that just because you think something is wrong doesn't mean everyone does.

Edit:
This is coming from a Christian who is politically middle of the road but tends to lean to the right.  It isn't always left-wingers that are pro-choice.




And one for you, too.


Cat

Abortion is something I'm more right-leaning on. To be honest, it really doesn't make sense that most lefties tend to be pro choice.

Yeah, I know you guys could say Whoa dude you're a liberal, how hypocritical can you get? ;)

Well I'd say that I basically just think for myself and don't follow a set line with everything (I might happen to be more left wing overall, but that's not on purpose). Regardless of what it makes me, I just try to be practical with what works best. I'm all about respecting life, and abortion just seems like "polite murder".

I admit when I was like 13-15 and started paying attention to issues like this, I sided with the "woman's right to choose". It initially made sense to me because of the personal freedom aspect. But I think what slowly changed my mind was hearing stories of deadbeats (i.e. freaked out teens with an unplanned pregnancy, or just irresponsible types) who were quick to get abortions with little or no concern for their unborn child. That could go for both guys and girls too - like either a young woman who is set on getting rid of a baby herself, or she could have a dirtbag boyfriend who pressures her into it.

That always ticked me off, it just seems selfish and compassionateless. If you don't want a kid, hey that's your business, but I'd say to at least give them a shot at a good life (say, by putting it up for adoption). Babies don't ask to be born, nor do they choose their parents.


Is that venom I see coming out of your mouth when you say the word "left"?  Abortion has been around since women have.

Selfish and compassionless.  How about the woman who says I'm not in the position to give a child what it needs.  Adoption, most adopting couples want healthy white kids.  Do you know how many kids are in foster homes because they're not perfect.  Also since you feel you're in a position to force a woman to carry a child I don't want to hear you whining about your taxes going up for social programs to help them.

As Red once said to me, if you believe abortion is murder, then do you regard a miscarriage as involuntary manslaughter?

Most people are in-between on abortion.  For example, most pro-choice people believe that partial birth abortions (those in the last trimester) should be illegal except for extenuating circumstances.

Most pro-lifers at least believe that abortion should be allowed in cases where the mother stands a high chance of dying during childbirth.

All that aside, if you honestly want to ban abortion, are you ready to spend at least double what we currently do on social programs and orphanages?  That's what it would take to make a ban feasible.

As to why left-wingers (and libertarians) tend to be pro-choice, it's because we want the government out of our personal lives.

What Jessica said, none of your damn business. 

We have all heard the pro and con arguments.  There will be nothing new said on this thread. 

I defend a woman's right to a legal and safe abortion regardless of age, income, or geographical location. 

Jesse,


I understand where you're coming from and when you can get pregnant and have a baby by all means please carry it to full term.



I just want to make this statement one more time so that you are clear that not all women have the same desires....


I want to experience the act of passing life through my body even less than I want to experience motherhood...


Nothing on this earth will ever convince me that I was put here simply to recreate life...in fact I am the last person who should ever have a baby!


And believe me if the unthinkable happens, I consider pregnancy- in my case- unthinkable. I will be on the doorstep of the nearest hospital, clinic or back alley quack if I have to to get rid of it... it is not what I want. I don't want to feel the baby growing, I do not want to feel a baby kick. I do not want to spend 30 something hours in labor and I sure as hell do not want to hear it cry or have it poop and puke all over me.


The closest I ever got to being maternal was what I felt for Carly. I will never feel that for a little person....ever....  but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate my friends kids. I have fun with them but I get to send them home when I am done.

I have the utmost respect for the women who do want children because I realize what a chore it is and I've always known I wouldn't have the patience for it.

Kudos to the moms here but I always say better you than me....  ;)



So Jesse- are you telling me that there is no part of you that can respect the fact that I feel this way. I mean what other options are available to me if.... ugh I can't even say it!  8-P

As Red once said to me, if you believe abortion is murder, then do you regard a miscarriage as involuntary manslaughter?
Also a good point.  Religion may imbue a fertilized ovum with a soul, but we are not legally beholden to religion in this country.  Not yet, anway.  If you are pregnant and you are against abortion for whatever reason...then don't have an abortion.

Economic factors weigh heavily in many women's decisions to end pregnancy.  The pro-lifers make a show of their support services, but in reality, a 16-year-old from a broken home is going to be on her own with a baby.  Our government makes it plain: Socialism for the rich, barbarism for everybody else.  At least the Ayn Rand people are not hypocritical on the abortion issue, unlike the Repbulicans. 

America, with its right-wing pride, has a higher rate of teenage pregnancy and infant mortality than the social democracies of Europe that conservatives love to hate. 

I just don't think it is anyone else's damned business.

ETA: what snoz said.


  My sig other agrees with you.  According to Joanne, only women should participate in this discussion.  She says no one should give a damn what men think about abortion "until one of you a$$holes gets pregnant..."  :P

   My sig other agrees with you.  According to Joanne, only women should participate in this discussion.  She says no one should give a damn what men think about abortion "until one of you a$$holes gets pregnant..."  :P


;D

^ ???

Marty posted a thread and we gave our opinions...?  ???

   Everything okay, Quirk..? ???

   My sig other agrees with you.  According to Joanne, only women should participate in this discussion.  She says no one should give a damn what men think about abortion "until one of you a$$holes gets pregnant..."  :P


Does it count if you're a woman in a man's body? ;D


I see what you guys are saying and you make a few valid points, but I still disagree.

I made the left wing comment, because I'm probably like 70% and yet that's one area I tend to really disagree with fellow Libs on. Again I'll raise the example - what if it's some redneck trailer park woman or a couple of ghetto 17 year olds who didn't use a condom (not trying to be gross) and just DO NOT want kids?

You could say "well it's the woman's right to choose" but more than likely the girls themselves wouldn't think twice about killing their own baby.

Does that kinda open your mind to what I'm talking about?  When I was like 14 I would've agreed with you, but that was before I thought about the other angles of it.

I'm not talking about a simple disagreement or collusion of opinions here. For MOST stuff I do agree that the government shouldn't tell people how to live their lives (as long as they're not breaking any laws), but what about saving an innocent life when its own parents may not care less.

Does it count if you're a woman in a man's body? ;D



http://www.flavinscorner.com/garrisondawkins.JPG
Yes it does, you male chauvinst pig!

Does it count if you're a woman in a man's body? ;D


I see what you guys are saying and you make a few valid points, but I still disagree.

I made the left wing comment, because I'm probably like 70% and yet that's one area I tend to really disagree with fellow Libs on. Again I'll raise the example - what if it's some redneck trailer park woman or a couple of ghetto 17 year olds who didn't use a condom (not trying to be gross) and just DO NOT want kids?

Then I'd say it's better they have an abortion now.  And that's a bit judgmental.  It is not always "trailer park women" and "ghetto 17 year olds" that experience unwanted pregnancies.  As loath as I am to say her name, Bristol Palin, anyone?

You could say "well it's the woman's right to choose" but more than likely the girls themselves wouldn't think twice about killing their own baby.

Does that kinda open your mind to what I'm talking about?  When I was like 14 I would've agreed with you, but that was before I thought about the other angles of it.

I'm not talking about a simple disagreement or collusion of opinions here. For MOST stuff I do agree that the government shouldn't tell people how to live their lives (as long as they're not breaking any laws), but what about saving an innocent life when its own parents may not care less.


I've said before and I'll say it again, you do NOT know what they are thinking.  You do NOT know the motives behind their decision.  You do NOT know if they had agonized over what to do or if they just didn't give it another thought.  This debate came up in another thread on another board I go to, and some women who did have abortions shared their experience.  It was not the snap decision that you're trying to make it sound like.

As for the innocent life spiel, let me give you a scenario: woman gets pregnant and decides to keep the baby even though she knows she can't handle it, but it's the "right" thing to do.  So she has baby, resents it, experiences PPD, and goes APESH*T on the kid.  The child lives for, oh three years, in a hostile environment getting the crap beat out of if, being neglected, etc.  Child finally dies, mom goes to jail, and the world keeps spinning.

And I will leave it at that because we will always disagree on it.

Does it count if you're a woman in a man's body? ;D



   I'd say, effective leadership, by any gender, is useful... 



I see what you guys are saying and you make a few valid points, but I still disagree.

I made the left wing comment, because I'm probably like 70% and yet that's one area I tend to really disagree with fellow Libs on. Again I'll raise the example - what if it's some redneck trailer park woman or a couple of ghetto 17 year olds who didn't use a condom (not trying to be gross) and just DO NOT want kids?

You could say "well it's the woman's right to choose" but more than likely the girls themselves wouldn't think twice about killing their own baby.

Does that kinda open your mind to what I'm talking about?  When I was like 14 I would've agreed with you, but that was before I thought about the other angles of it.

I'm not talking about a simple disagreement or collusion of opinions here. For MOST stuff I do agree that the government shouldn't tell people how to live their lives (as long as they're not breaking any laws), but what about saving an innocent life when its own parents may not care less.


   I still say, "Education, education, education..."

   Why education?  You can't get pregnant if A) it's your first time (<--been here), or B) you're raped. (I've heard both before: 'A' from thirteen year-olds, and 'B' from conservative politicians arguing for the passage of anti-abortion laws.)  I knew a couple of young women who firmly believed that you cannot contract HIV via oral sex...

   It's about people doing what's best for their own self.  Not in the capitalist manner, nor any incarnation of pious prudism...

   What happens when people want to do the best thing possible, but are educated solely to measure things in terms of how an event or idea affects that individual exclusively?  Take a look at how many stupid ideas we foist onto children - the importance of money, the importance of traditional marriage, the importance of being morally upstanding ... it's all lies.  When they hit the real world, they'll find that money causes more problems than it solves, that marriage is a lie, and that morally upstanding people either get stepped on or are not as upstanding as we think...

...but...but...money can buy many peanuts!

The point being, whether it's fully developed or not, a fetus is still a human life that ought to be protected. I thought Liberal philosophies were about compassion, sympathy and humanity for everyone (that's the part of it that appeals to me), so it seems illogical that many of them say it's perfectly okay to take a life.


Your conclusion follows logically from your premise (since you haven't justified it, I'm going to give you the credit of calling it an axiom, which means you don't need to justify it!), but I would remind you that your axiom (that all agglomerations of self-replicating human DNA ought to be protected) is not universally accepted.

For example, I take it as axiomatic that rights apply to volitional beings; that is, creatures with the capacity for judgement and rational thought.

Without sentience there can be no free will, and it therefore follows that life becomes worthy of protection at the point at which it achieves sentience.  I feel no guilt about the countless cows, chickens, pigs, and other critters that I've had killed on my behalf.  I'd do the killing myself and gleefully chow the hell down on most of the animal kingdom for no reason other than that animals provide higher energy densities than plants, which is why most members of my species find them tastier than most plants.  I've killed my share of plants too, mind you, not just grains, veggies or piles of sauteed fungi that I've eaten, but probably a few acres of grapes, sugar cane, and barley that I've paid people to dump into vats to rot in order to get the delicious alcohol that the yeast poop out after having eaten the dead plant.  The yeast, for all their work, are then killed too!

But with all that death on my hands, I'd hunt and eat cetaceans (whale, dolphin) or other primates ("bush meat") only as a last resort before starvation.  I prefer to err on the side of caution.

Back to our abortion thread, if you accept that "mind" is an epiphenomenon of "brain", and you observe a blastocyst consisting of a few dozen cells...

The only rational conclusion that I can draw is that because a blastocyst lacks a brain, it is not even as sentient as a cow.  It's not only less sentient than a cow, at the blastocyst stage it isn't even as capable of non-sentient adaptation to changes in its environment as a carrot would be.  The blastocyst is fair game.  (So, for that matter, was Terri Schiavo.  No cerebral cortex, no sentience.  No sentience, no volition.  No force inflicted on a voliional being, no foul in pulling the plug.)


I don't like the government (or anyone) getting into people's personal business simply because they dont like it or disagree on some level. But here's the thing - the rules are different when someone's life or their safety is at stake. Then I think it actually becomes almost your duty as a good citizen to step in.

OK, but by my axiom that rights are only inherent for sentient beings, there's a period of time where there's only one "someone" involved!  That "someone" is the pregnant female.  The other lifeform spends a long time as a "something", not a "someone".

It's the grey areas that suck.  Somewhere between trimesters #2 and #3, a fetus becomes viable outside its womb, albeit with gazillions of dollars worth of high-tech medical equipment.  Ditto an accident victim that's in a coma, or an acephalitic fetus.  But back to the normal human gestational process, it spends a lot of months being fundamentally no different than a non-sentient parasite, which makes it fair game, and if I had the appropriate genitals (and bad luck!) to have an unwanted pregnancy, the parasite would be scraped out and flushed away long before it coming close to achieving sentience. 

Since I don't have the appropriate genitals, my body will never play host to a potentially-sentient parasite.  So it's not my call.

Since sentience isn't well-understood (or even well-defined), the grey area between sentience and non-sentience is pretty big, and there's relatively little scientific evidence to illuminate it.  So it's not like it's anyone else's call either.

Which leaves it back to the female.  She's a sentient being, let her figure out what sorts of organisms are worthy of "rights", and  if she accepts my premise that sentience is a prerequisite for "rights", it's also her job to make the call where sentience begins.

Which is why I'm pro-choice, even though I'm as hard right as it gets on economics.  The only reason we ever let the religious right into the big tent is because we didn't really care either way about it and we thought we could keep stringing them along and we needed their votes.  Then eight years ago, they turned around and pulled the same trick on us.  All's fair in love, war, and politics, and primary season is all three.

Abortion is something I'm more right-leaning on. To be honest, it really doesn't make sense that most lefties tend to be pro choice.

Yeah, I know you guys could say Whoa dude you're a liberal, how hypocritical can you get? ;)

Well I'd say that I basically just think for myself and don't follow a set line with everything (I might happen to be more left wing overall, but that's not on purpose). Regardless of what it makes me, I just try to be practical with what works best. I'm all about respecting life, and abortion just seems like "polite murder".

I admit when I was like 13-15 and started paying attention to issues like this, I sided with the "woman's right to choose". It initially made sense to me because of the personal freedom aspect. But I think what slowly changed my mind was hearing stories of deadbeats (i.e. freaked out teens with an unplanned pregnancy, or just irresponsible types) who were quick to get abortions with little or no concern for their unborn child. That could go for both guys and girls too - like either a young woman who is set on getting rid of a baby herself, or she could have a dirtbag boyfriend who pressures her into it.

That always ticked me off, it just seems selfish and compassionateless. If you don't want a kid, hey that's your business, but I'd say to at least give them a shot at a good life (say, by putting it up for adoption). Babies don't ask to be born, nor do they choose their parents.


Actually, what I see here is a much larger question, which seems lost in the middle of yet again another tiresome abortion debate, and that is: Why ARE left-wingers pro-choice? Or, more importantly why are left-wingers OBLIGATED to be pro-choice? Or anti-death penalty, or pro-this, or anti-that? Who makes the rules?

McFly, if I could I'd give you 10 karma points right now but unfortunately I can only give you one. I admire you for having the cojones to ignore the thought police and actually think for yourself instead arbitrarily taking a position just because everyone else tells you that's how you're "supposed" to think to "be a good liberal."  ;)

You could also ask why do "pro-lifers" generally support wars and the death penalty. Doesn't sound very pro-life to me.

I guess it comes from their belief in tolerance. I'm really liberal, and really tolerant, but I'm not so tolerant that I think a woman has the right to kill their own baby.

I'm pro-choice when it comes to say, the baby is less than 2 months old. Any more than that, and it's not the "woman's right", it's the baby's right! With that said though, I don't really think it's murder unless it's done right before it's going to be born, and I guess part of why so many liberals are pro-choice is because women get the short end of the stick in so many other ways, abortion might be some kind of justice for them I guess (in some people's minds, not mine).

ee.

I made the left wing comment, because I'm probably like 70% and yet that's one area I tend to really disagree with fellow Libs on. Again I'll raise the example - what if it's some redneck trailer park woman or a couple of ghetto 17 year olds who didn't use a condom (not trying to be gross) and just DO NOT want kids?




citing those cases they shouldn't have the kids anyway...it just drains on government assistance.  Having said that tho there are lots of people from those regions who don't get pregnant or if they do get pregnant do a decent job of raising their kids.


Sorry if Erin thought we   I was picking on you... I just cite my own experience as an example *and you didn't answer my specific question...but whatever...


truth is you knew it was a loaded when you posted it and I like Erin but you're a big boy and doing well fighting this battle...

just closing to say that as someone who says you're sensitive to women's issue and needs you're waxing a little inflexible in this one...


lastly ^I lied about that other one...

there may be a few women here who have had abortions and are sensitive about it so perhaps you can lighten up on the abortion is murder and killing babies  comments... it's insensitive dude.

I guess it comes from their belief in tolerance. I'm really liberal, and really tolerant, but I'm not so tolerant that I think a woman has the right to kill their own baby.

I'm pro-choice when it comes to say, the baby is less than 2 months old. Any more than that, and it's not the "woman's right", it's the baby's right! With that said though, I don't really think it's murder unless it's done right before it's going to be born, and I guess part of why so many liberals are pro-choice is because women get the short end of the stick in so many other ways, abortion might be some kind of justice for them I guess (in some people's minds, not mine).



so I can kill a two month old baby but not a fet....oh I get it now...

A two month old embryo is unlikely to have much more consciousness than a bug, while an 8 month old baby is basically a person ready to be born. There's a big difference.

I think if you're gonna abort, you should have the right to, if it's done early.

A two month old embryo is unlikely to have much more consciousness than a bug, while an 8 month old baby is basically a person ready to be born. There's a big difference.

I think if you're gonna abort, you should have the right to, if it's done early.
Talk about getting what you previously said wrong...  ;D

Here I was thinking you meant two month old baby not two month old foetus  ::)

Yeah I hear what you're saying though. About 3 months into the pregnancy you should have decided by now whether you want to keep it or not. After that it gets too late. After 6 months definitely not, apart from in rare life threatening circumstances.

Yes, i meant "baby" as unborn baby! LOL!

You could also ask why do "pro-lifers" generally support wars and the death penalty. Doesn't sound very pro-life to me.


I guess there's a difference between "killing with suction" and killing with an semiautomatic rifle.  The baby didn't deserve to die, the pinko liberal commie next door smiled at me . . . die sucker!!!!!

   My sig other agrees with you.  According to Joanne, only women should participate in this discussion.  She says no one should give a damn what men think about abortion "until one of you a$$holes gets pregnant..."  :P


By the same rule no woman should complain when the father of their baby walks out. A pregnancy is a joint responsibility,deciding in favor of an abortion must be a choice by both parts.

Even though is the woman who goes through the pregnancy, the father can be as devastated as the mother when something bad happens. I believe it is one of the issues where our generation is better,guys are a lot more willing to experience parenthood in a totally giving way. It's sad when we are all fighting for equality between both genders but keep falling into the same old,sexist roles.

I guess there's a difference between "killing with suction" and killing with an semiautomatic rifle.  The baby didn't deserve to die, the pinko liberal commie next door smiled at me . . . die sucker!!!!!


Commie pinko liberals aren't as cute as babies.

Unless they look like that chick from "The Spy Who Loved Me"...

dramaticus redacticus!

By the same rule no woman should complain when the father of their baby walks out. A pregnancy is a joint responsibility,deciding in favor of an abortion must be a choice by both parts.

Even though is the woman who goes through the pregnancy, the father can be as devastated as the mother when something bad happens. I believe it is one of the issues where our generation is better,guys are a lot more willing to experience parenthood in a totally giving way. It's sad when we are all fighting for equality between both genders but keep falling into the same old,sexist roles.



Sorry Is I disagree somewhat...I understand that a sperm donor.... because not all sperm donors are fathers  ;) .... is supposed to take financial responsibility but if the father says I don't to be a dad and I think you should have an abortion somehow, if he did what he was supposed to do (wear a condom) then he should be absolved of responsibility....I know the lines are murky and we could potenially have every guy running around saying get an abortion. But I don't know if child support should be as arbitrary as it is.  

The women who make the decision to get pregnant because they want to be moms despite what the sperm donor wants should be 100% responsible for that kid.  Likewise the guys who stick around through pregnancy (or birth) and actually are act as tho they are going to be dad are 50% responsible.

How do you decide...I don't know that's why I am not in government.


but on the issue of abortion I still think the man has absolutely no say.... sorry dads... but until you can hold the zygote, embryo, fetus, baby whatever in your arms then you just don't get a say in the matter.  


finally, I know pro-choice comes across as pro-abortion and that's not accurate.

So long as people can continue to do what they want to do I don't care what they do but the only one who can make the decision is the person who this directly affects.  

If you want to have the baby despite the obstacles you face...good
If you decide this not the time...for whatever reason....that's fine too.....


that's why we call it a choice.... why are right-wingers so afraid of that concept?

You could also ask why do "pro-lifers" generally support wars and the death penalty. Doesn't sound very pro-life to me.

Exactly.

When it comes to abortion and the death penalty, as far as I'm concerned you can't be for one and against the other without being completely hypocritical.  Either way, to me that's like saying "It's OK to kill these people over here but it's not OK to kill those people over there."

Seems like the only group that has any sanity in all of this is the Catholic Church. Say what you will, but they oppose both abortion and capital punishment and I can respect that because they're at least being C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T.

Me? I'm just the opposite.  I say kill 'em all.

Exactly.

When it comes to abortion and the death penalty, as far as I'm concerned you can't be for one and against the other without being completely hypocritical.  Either way, to me that's like saying "It's OK to kill these people over here but it's not OK to kill those people over there."

Seems like the only group that has any sanity in all of this is the Catholic Church. Say what you will, but they oppose both abortion and capital punishment and I can respect that because they're at least being C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T.

Me? I'm just the opposite.  I say kill em' all.
well, to play devil's advocate, i think the people who suffer the death penalty are theoretically guilty of something, whereas the fetuses are not. ditto war, the enemy has presumably done something offensive to freedom or dignity and so in that case the violence is called for.

but i think it's more biblical, trying to reconcile the sanctity of god-created life with the eye-for-an-eye thing.

Abortion is something I'm more right-leaning on. To be honest, it really doesn't make sense that most lefties tend to be pro choice.

Yeah, I know you guys could say Whoa dude you're a liberal, how hypocritical can you get? ;)

(...) I'm all about respecting life, and abortion just seems like "polite murder".

I admit when I was like 13-15 and started paying attention to issues like this, I sided with the "woman's right to choose". It initially made sense to me because of the personal freedom aspect. But I think what slowly changed my mind was hearing stories of deadbeats (i.e. freaked out teens with an unplanned pregnancy, or just irresponsible types) who were quick to get abortions with little or no concern for their unborn child. That could go for both guys and girls too - like either a young woman who is set on getting rid of a baby herself, or she could have a dirtbag boyfriend who pressures her into it. (..)


I tend to think that this might be one of the most delicate issues in society.

Nevertheless, I believe I'm not a Lefty by any stretch of the imagination. Instead, I tend to adopt a Libertarian -or at least highly individualistic- viewpoint in some aspects, one being abortion. In short, I think you can consider me as pro-choice.

BUT... I'm generally disgusted by the Progressive/Feminist creed about abortion being a right of "women".

AND... I'm also largely disgusted by the Conservative hysteria about abortion being the "murder of an unborn human being".

Anyway, my position on abortion is not completely definite yet because I'm still doing a lot of thinking about it.     

Commie pinko liberals aren't as cute as babies.

Unless they look like that chick from "The Spy Who Loved Me"...


Good point

Neither baby or commie pinko can compare to a Bond Girl.  Those chicks are in a class by themselves for a reason.

America, with its right-wing pride, has a higher rate of teenage pregnancy and infant mortality than the social democracies of Europe that conservatives love to hate. 


America also has far more abortions than Europe per capita.  If pro-lifers really took a comprehensive approach to ending abortion, they'd be the most vocal in increasing social program spending, because more programs generally equal less abortion.

Actually, what I see here is a much larger question, which seems lost in the middle of yet again another tiresome abortion debate, and that is: Why ARE left-wingers pro-choice? Or, more importantly why are left-wingers OBLIGATED to be pro-choice? Or anti-death penalty, or pro-this, or anti-that? Who makes the rules?

McFly, if I could I'd give you 10 karma points right now but unfortunately I can only give you one. I admire you for having the cojones to ignore the thought police and actually think for yourself instead arbitrarily taking a position just because everyone else tells you that's how you're "supposed" to think to "be a good liberal."   ;)


Hey Al, I totally agree man, and thanks. :)  You know, I actually didn't consider that, but I think you're right. Lots of times, people who generally identify with one side tend to have the mindset of those issues just BECAUSE it fits with that side. I'm probably like 70% Liberal but it's like that doesn't mean I'm automatically a total new age hippie with everything, lmao. Depending on the exact example, sometimes my views can be swayed a bit too.

Most of the time, debates seem to arise because there's no perfect easy answer (there's usually some good arguments on both sides of an issue), but I'd always say to go with the one that fits everyone and solves as much as possible. Even if it's not perfect, it's better than the alternatives.

But yeah, I'd rather just be myself.

Exactly.

When it comes to abortion and the death penalty, as far as I'm concerned you can't be for one and against the other without being completely hypocritical.  Either way, to me that's like saying "It's OK to kill these people over here but it's not OK to kill those people over there."

Seems like the only group that has any sanity in all of this is the Catholic Church. Say what you will, but they oppose both abortion and capital punishment and I can respect that because they're at least being C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T.

Me? I'm just the opposite.  I say kill 'em all.


  Nice try...

  It's not as simple as Life/Death - Death/Life.  Jeez, they let you vote..? 

  If you've ever considered the idea of "exclusive dominion over one's person" then you'll see that's it's not so inconsistent.  I'll give you some time to reconsider before I exapand...

  I'm for freedom and for dignity...

 

Jeez, they let you vote..? 

So what, you think that people who disagree with you shouldn't be allowed to vote?



I'm for freedom and for dignity...



Ha!  ::) ::) ::)

So what, you think that people who disagree with you shouldn't be allowed to vote?

No!  You should all be locked in cages like the mongoloids you are!  >:(














:D :D :D

Carry on...

No!  You should all be locked in cages like the mongoloids you are!  >:(














:D :D :D

Carry on...


Hey watch it you'll give mongoloids a bad name!!!!!

No!  You should all be locked in cages like the mongoloids you are! >:(



We do not use the term "mongoloid" anymore.  It is considered pejorative.  What you need to say is:

"No!  You should all be locked in cages like the differently-abled citizens you are!"
:-\\

We do not use the term "mongoloid" anymore.  It is considered pejorative.  What you need to say is:

"No!  You should all be locked in cages like the differently-abled citizens you are!" :-\\


The Handicapper General raises a bemused eyebrow at your use of the term "differently-abled".  I'd type a funnier joke than that, except that I've got these 2-pound weights on each of my fingers... :)