I hope I don't sound heartless when I say this...but I am sick and tired of everytime I go into the city (Pittsburgh) and there is a big event (like tonight was the Pirates game) there is always a handful of "homeless" people begging for money. They stand there most of the time wearing better clothes than I do, holding their cups and hands open expecting others to hand over their cash to them.

Here's the thing...

I know that people can be down on their luck, God knows that I have struggles with my finances but would never think to beg anyone for anything.  I am out there working a shitty job that I can't stand, but guess what? It helps with the bills. If I didn't have it...then I would be a lot worse off. Why can't these people (instead of standing around begging for other people's money) go and get a job too?  Like I said, I have seen many of them dressed pretty well, in the meantime I shop at Goodwill and Salvation Army. I make do, even though I don't have two nickels to rub together. I would NEVER ever think of soliciting other people like they do.

If I DID have the money to help out people..I would rather donate it to a shelter or something. At least you know that those people truly are in need of some assistance, whereas these panhandlers on the streets could be crooks out looking to make a quick buck.

Like tonight, after the game there was a lady standing there, with prop in hand (a walker) and a cup in the other hand. I mean, maybe she was honest...but there are too many people out there that are willing to make up stories in order to get something for free.

Like I said, I don't want to come across as a mean person, and if I DID have the money I would be glad to help those who TRULY needed it...but these people just really irk me.

I hope I don't sound heartless when I say this...but I am sick and tired of everytime I go into the city (Pittsburgh) and there is a big event (like tonight was the Pirates game) there is always a handful of "homeless" people begging for money. They stand there most of the time wearing better clothes than I do, holding their cups and hands open expecting others to hand over their cash to them.

Here's the thing...

I know that people can be down on their luck, God knows that I have struggles with my finances but would never think to beg anyone for anything.  I am out there working a shitty job that I can't stand, but guess what? It helps with the bills. If I didn't have it...then I would be a lot worse off. Why can't these people (instead of standing around begging for other people's money) go and get a job too?  Like I said, I have seen many of them dressed pretty well, in the meantime I shop at Goodwill and Salvation Army. I make do, even though I don't have two nickels to rub together. I would NEVER ever think of soliciting other people like they do.

If I DID have the money to help out people..I would rather donate it to a shelter or something. At least you know that those people truly are in need of some assistance, whereas these panhandlers on the streets could be crooks out looking to make a quick buck.

Like tonight, after the game there was a lady standing there, with prop in hand (a walker) and a cup in the other hand. I mean, maybe she was honest...but there are too many people out there that are willing to make up stories in order to get something for free.

Like I said, I don't want to come across as a mean person, and if I DID have the money I would be glad to help those who TRULY needed it...but these people just really irk me.


To get a job of any kind, you usually need a permanent address. I'm not making excuses, but that is the sad truth of it. To get help to get back on your feet? Same thing. Permanent address.

Living in a big city like Chicago, I have seen the panhandlers out in full force. I have seen the ones who are legit (like the poor old man down by the MSI that shuffles along, not really aware of where he is or what he's doing...hell, I don't even know if he panhandles), and the ones who might not be (guy by the deli who is always wearing expensive clothes).

I don't hate them because I don't know their circumstances. They could be homeless and begging for money because no one has given them a break, they could be panhandling because they are mentally disabled, hell, they could be panhandling because they lost their job, their house, their car, their dog, etc.

It brings to mind the story my mom told me about some people that were panhandling outside of Costco. It was a married couple who had lost EVERYTHING because of the downturn in the economy. They offered to wash my mom's windows for a few bucks, a quarter, whatever she could spare. While the husband was talking to my mom, the wife approached another lady about it. In typical fashion, the woman sniped at them about getting a real job, so the woman told her, "Look, if I had a choice, I wouldn't be out here. I was like you, I had everything in the world, and I lost it all through no fault of my own." The broad didn't know what to say to that.

I guess my points are that we don't know their circumstances, even if they are well dressed. They could have dug those clothes out somewhere or they could be relics from a lost life of luxury. I also remember that if things keep up, I could wind up in their shoes, and it's not going to kill me to give the change I have in my pocket, because someone is ALWAYS worse off than I am.

To get a job of any kind, you usually need a permanent address. I'm not making excuses, but that is the sad truth of it. To get help to get back on your feet? Same thing. Permanent address.

Living in a big city like Chicago, I have seen the panhandlers out in full force. I have seen the ones who are legit (like the poor old man down by the MSI that shuffles along, not really aware of where he is or what he's doing...hell, I don't even know if he panhandles), and the ones who might not be (guy by the deli who is always wearing expensive clothes).

I don't hate them because I don't know their circumstances. They could be homeless and begging for money because no one has given them a break, they could be panhandling because they are mentally disabled, hell, they could be panhandling because they lost their job, their house, their car, their dog, etc.

It brings to mind the story my mom told me about some people that were panhandling outside of Costco. It was a married couple who had lost EVERYTHING because of the downturn in the economy. They offered to wash my mom's windows for a few bucks, a quarter, whatever she could spare. While the husband was talking to my mom, the wife approached another lady about it. In typical fashion, the woman sniped at them about getting a real job, so the woman told her, "Look, if I had a choice, I wouldn't be out here. I was like you, I had everything in the world, and I lost it all through no fault of my own." The broad didn't know what to say to that.

I guess my points are that we don't know their circumstances, even if they are well dressed. They could have dug those clothes out somewhere or they could be relics from a lost life of luxury. I also remember that if things keep up, I could wind up in their shoes, and it's not going to kill me to give the change I have in my pocket, because someone is ALWAYS worse off than I am.



you make a lot of great points. You're right..we don't know all of their circumstances...and I know that things are really hard and they are only getting more difficult as time goes by. Like I said, if I felt that the person was indeed legit, I wouldn't mind helping them out. It's just difficult sometimes to know the difference between a person who is really having a hard time..or someone who is making up stories.

I guess a lot of people are just not as proud as I am. I don't care how poor/desperate I was...I could never stand on a street corner and beg for money from strangers. I would do anything I possibly could besides making a spectacle of myself.

I remember one time when I was in high school we went down to Pittsburgh for an event, and a homeless man approached one of my classmates and was begging for money. The classmate graciously offered to go to a nearby restaurant and buy him a meal...of course he turned down that offer...he just wanted the money. It's people like that who make it bad for those who really DO need the help.

I'll comment in more detail in a minute, but there's this relevant article I wanted to share. When Jerry Springer was a news reporter, he did a special around 1991 where he lived for a few days undercover as a homeless person and interacted with different people out on the streets. I actually bought the article online for three reasons out of curiousity's sake (just because it's retro, it's Springer history, and because the subject interests me in general). He briefly mentioned it in his autobiography so it's cool to see it more in depth.

Memo:
Channel 5 news anchor Jerry Springer spent six days on the streets of Cincinnati living among the homeless, which is the basis for a five-part series that begins tonight at 11 p.m. Here are excerpts from his diary.

Tuesday, April 9

3 p.m.: Playhouse in the Park on Mt. Adams. Kelly Yurko starts to apply the makeup. Part of me has always enjoyed recognition. Kelly's job is to destroy that. She weaves a beard around my face. I begin to recite "The Gettysburg Address." She adds bags under my eyes. I'm not even tired, but I sure look it.

4:30 p.m.: The Playhouse people loan me a scruffy jacket, shirt and cap to finish the portrait. Also I've insisted on a sleeping bag, to carry on my back. For a chilling moment, I lose confidence. There's no way people aren't going to recognize me . . . Producer Shannon Reichley shakes me from my brooding by saying it's time to hit the road. She gives me $10. "That's it for the week," she says.

6:15 p.m.: The Drop Inn Center on 12th. A lot of people standing around outside. I seem to fit right in, but I think they're all staring at me. I keep my head down, try to avoid eye contact.

I sign in as "Charlie Silvera." It's the name of a former backup catcher for the Yankees in the early '50s. I list my age as 43 (I'm 47, but the lies roll off easier now).

8 p.m.: Leave the Drop Inn Center. I walk . . . and I walk. Tension's gone . . . but I'm bored. And for the first time I realize that no one notices me. Strange.

11 p.m.: Back in the Drop Inn Center, the rec area. Dozens of "residents" are watching the Late News, on Channel 5 no less. A voice in the crowd says "Hey, where's Springer?!" I can't believe my ears.

11:30 p.m.: The TV's switched off and I'm assigned mat number 115 in the sleeping room. It's wall-to-wall mats here, each 3 by 6 feet, one touching against the other. No modesty here either, just a large group of people having blessedly found safe shelter for at least the night. Can't sleep, though. Many are snoring . . . one guy's getting sick . . . another appears quite drunk and seems bent on picking a fight. The turmoil subsides somewhat . . . but not the stench. It's indescribable . . . beer and body odor?

Wednesday, April 10

6 a.m.: Leave the Drop Inn Center. Hungry. Money's running short. I'll skip breakfast. Walk down Vine. People see me coming, they move to the other side fo the sidewalk. All turn their eyes aside.

10 a.m.: The Cincinnati Public Library. Main entrance, turn right into a large room. There are 10 long wooden tables here. A few other folks are seated at the tables and they look just like me in my "disguise." I take a book from the shelves, sit at one of the tables and fall asleep on the book. Nobody bothers me.

4:15 p.m.: St. Francis Seraph School, at Liberty and Vine. I discover that every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, this noble institution opens its arms and its kitchen to the homeless for a hot meal. The doors will open at 4:30 and already at least 150 people have gathered outside. Everybody looks old . . . even the young.

11:45 p.m.: Arrive at the Greyhound Bus Terminal on Gilbert. Inside I am surprised to find things look far better than I remember bus stations look. But the old benches are gone, the ones I figured to stretch out on and catch some needed sleep.

Thursday, April 11

Just before 1:30 a.m.: I'm awakened by a portable radio of some sort. My fellow "passengers" have apparently left for their departure gate and I am virtually alone with a security guard who is speaking into what appears to be a police walkie-talkie. "I've got a suspicious character here," he says. With a degree of fear, but a sense of aplomb, I bid a hasty farewell to the bus terminal.

2:15 a.m.: At the Seasongood Pavilion, I discover benches . . . nice, long stretch-yourself-out benches. My joy is boundless . . . I'm fast to sleep.

An eternity later . . . though probably only an hour. Someone nudges me. My eyes half-open and there's a flashlight pouring a beam of light into my face. "You can't stay here!" a stern voice warns. I see a uniform . . . probably park police. My first instinct is to tell him "Hey, I'm Jerry Springer. . ." but I resist that temptation.

Noon: The Bank Cafe. I still haven't stooped to begging and my money is low, but I simply must buy lunch this day.

I meet "Jack". . . guy appears to be in his 50s. I ask him where I should spend the night. He recommends the Drop Inn Center. Guess my options are really limited. Jack's a Korean War vet. With some prodding he tells me he gets about $300 a month in vet's pay and SSI. "Why not use that for a room?" I ask. "I don't want to live alone," he answers, "because they rob you. At least at the Drop Inn, I can be with other people."

About 8 p.m.: I'm walking down Gest Street toward the railroad yards. There's an overpass . . . is it I-71? . . . I-75? Does it matter? There's a fire in the distance, which I approach. The blaze is burning in an old steel drum, like something out of a Depression-era movie.

Bill says he's in his early 40s, but could pass for a man in his 60s. Not long ago he came to Cincinnati from Florida hoping to locate a brother.

By trade he is a mechanic. But Bill can't find work in this city. He has a heart condition and asthma. Who'd hire him? To make matters worse, only a few weeks ago he suffered a heart attack. Sure some hospital took him in . . . no problem . . . though he can't remember which one.

So by day Bill shuffles around the underside of our city, pushing a once- abandoned shopping cart that contains his only worldly possession, save the worn clothes on his back, an old mattress.

"If you're willing to rob people, or deal drugs, you can make it on the streets," he tells me, adding, "but I wasn't brought up that way." Honor-filled, but body afflicted, Bill is a victim . . . someone who's fallen through cracks our society has made no effort to patch up.

Friday, April 12

Today I must find a job . . . or I must beg.

9 a.m.: On 12th Street I find a day-labor place . . . about a block from the Drop Inn Center. But I'm too late . . . no jobs this day. If there were any earlier, they were filled by the earliest of birds. "Can I at least fill out an application?" I ask earnestly. "Do you have an I.D.?" comes the reply. "No." I answer. No I.D. . . . no jobs. I must beg.

"Can you spare a quarter?" I asked a man in a well-tailored suit.

He doesn't see me . . . no acknowledgment whatsoever. The man just stares straight ahead. Another rejection. Then another, and another and still another.

As the day progresses, I'm getting bolder and just slightly more aggressive, but my luck has not improved. Finally, one man gives me a dollar bill and I'm all at once and altogether excited, relieved and genuinely moved by his generosity. There's hope for me yet.

The begging continues for a couple of hours and I finally stop to count my bounty. Four dollars!

Saturday, April 13

Noon: The Cincinnati Public Library. Young guy staring at me long and hard . . . finally approaches. Asks where I'm heading. I'm shocked . . . first person to start a conversation all week. I make up some answer and he blurts out "Ya know you look an awful lot like Jerry Springer." I'm a little taken aback but manage a "Yeah . . . I get that all the time."

Fifteen minutes later, same guy approaches. "Are you sure you're not Jerry Springer?" he asks. Well, I got to tell someone, i rationalize. It's been a long week. I proceed to tell "Dan" what I'm up to, but evoke from him a pledge to keep my "little secret."

Sunday, April 14

Home. Off with the beard and the moustache, away with the grubby clothes and into the shower! As soon as possible . . . a hug from Katie and the meal of a lifetime. Then, sleep . . . long, sound sleep in the blessed comfort of my own bed.

Home. What a word that is, what a wonderful word. Did I find out what it is to be homeless? Not really. No matter what discomfort I'd felt for a week, I always knew the week would end and then there'd be that hot shower, the warm bed, lots to eat. In other words, I suffered physically for a time, but I didn't experience any of the emotional or psychological trauma of realizing that the abject poverty might never end.


Copyright 1991, The Cincinnati Post

The people who annoy me more are solicitors outside stores who won't let you walk by without stopping you. It's like the face to face version of telemarketing. ;D


Seriously though, I've been on both sides of the fence. I don't like being asked for "change" specifically because it feels kinda invasive, but I don't mind as much if they're holding up a sign, for instance. There's times I've given people a buck or two...like if I'm at a bus stop and they just ask for a little bit to catch the bus.

The bad ones always ruin it for everyone else (that's the sad truth with just about everything, though). I've seen stuff on the news where they expose people who just put on ratty clothes and go panhandle and aren't honestly broke or in need, and that sucks for two reasons - because it's a form of fraud AND it makes it even harder for the honest ones to be taken seriously.

Of course I feel terrible for anyone who actually is out on the streets not of their own volition and has to do whatever they can to survive. I imagine it's not always easy for them to get jobs either, if interviewers are going just on their appearance.

I guess a lot of people are just not as proud as I am. I don't care how poor/desperate I was...I could never stand on a street corner and beg for money from strangers. I would do anything I possibly could besides making a spectacle of myself.this is sort-of a tangent but i was listening to slavoj zizek, my favorite slovenian cultural critic, and he tells this story about inmates in a concentration camp, and as they slowly starve and become more and more deprived they start turning on each other, cheating other, stealing food, etc., and what always happens in those situations is this rumor starts going that one of the camp inmates isn't behaving that way, is being magnanimous and generous. and the most disturbing moment for these inmates is when they learn this is a myth, which it always was: that person never existed. if you lived on the street you would beg. the reason why is that you would be starving and suffering through temperature extremes, just like people in concentration camps did. that kind of suffering has the same effect on everyone.

Jessica mentioned substance abuse and mental illness.  Indeed, a lot of the people you see on any given city street in the U.S. stemming for change have problems with alcohol, drugs, psychiatric issues or combinations of these.  If you give them a quarter, a dollar, or ten dollars, they are likely to drink it or shoot it up.  Some may actually buy a sandwich and a coffee.  However, even if the panhandler has the best intentions, panhandling will not get the panhandler off the street.  That's why I don't give them money.  If you want to help the homeless, the better thing to do is find an outreach organization that checks out as legit and donate money or goods there.

As for "Why don't they go get a job?," Jessica is again correct in that if you don't have a legal address, you can't even complete a job application.  Furthermore, if you've been homeless for several weeks or more, you look disheveled, exposed, and probably smell pretty ripe.  No business or agency is going to want to set up an interview with you.  Again, the bigger issue is with substance abuse and/or mental illness.  These problems impede an individual's ability to take the necessary steps to get his or her life on track.

It does not take much to be rendered unfit in the job market.  I suffered from years of unemployment and underemployment in my battle with clinical depression.  I was quite capable of working; however, I was not able to perform to employers' expectations.  Rightly or wrongly, the corporate world (and even a counterperson at McDonald's is in the corporate world) does not care about you or your needs.  They just want you to do the job they're offering, do it quickly, and do it well. 

I could go on and on about this issue, but suffice it to say, the unfortunate souls you see begging for change on the street is only the tip of the iceberg of poverty in America. 

I do wish people would not look upon those on the street with such contempt, even when they're unpleasant (and god knows many are).  They are human beings like you and me who are in terrible circumstances.  I reiterate, it does not make you cold or uncaring if you refuse panhandlers money because your spare change is not going to extricate them from the circumstances.  In fact, it might encourage them to keep standing on the street rather than searching for a more efficacious solution.

There are many reasons why people are homeless. When people see someone living under a bridge or in a cardboard box in an alley, they automatically think: LAZY or DRUG ABUSE!!! That is not necessarily so. People could be homeless because they lost everything to a fire with no insurance. You really don't know what someone's circumstances are. Yeah, it is uncomfortable seeing people begging because it is literally an In-Your-Face reminder that we do have poverty in the country. 

I remember when I worked at the food shelf, they was a family living out of their car. I gave them food that didn't need refrigeration. I have seen the faces of these people coming to the food shelf. Yeah, you get people who think they are entitled to it but mostly, you have people who swallow their pride and do what they have to do to survive and take care of their families. One day, there was a woman who showed up to get food. She had been there quite a lot so I told her that she needed to see our director. Sometimes people need help with budgeting for food, or whatever. She had a fit saying that she was refused-she wasn't refused, she just needed to see the director. She stormed out of there (without food). The guy standing in line behind her said that he would be a witness if needed to be because he saw that she wasn't refused. Then he asked if we had diapers-he only came in for diapers. Then he said that he ate every other day so his wife and kids could eat. Needless to say, he walked out of there with more than just diapers. I made sure that he was going to eat that night and the following 2 nights (we always provided 3 days worth of food). 



Cat

There are many reasons why people are homeless. When people see someone living under a bridge or in a cardboard box in an alley, they automatically think: LAZY or DRUG ABUSE!!! That is not necessarily so. People could be homeless because they lost everything to a fire with no insurance. You really don't know what someone's circumstances are. Yeah, it is uncomfortable seeing people begging because it is literally an In-Your-Face reminder that we do have poverty in the country. 

I remember when I worked at the food shelf, they was a family living out of their car. I gave them food that didn't need refrigeration. I have seen the faces of these people coming to the food shelf. Yeah, you get people who think they are entitled to it but mostly, you have people who swallow their pride and do what they have to do to survive and take care of their families. One day, there was a woman who showed up to get food. She had been there quite a lot so I told her that she needed to see our director. Sometimes people need help with budgeting for food, or whatever. She had a fit saying that she was refused-she wasn't refused, she just needed to see the director. She stormed out of there (without food). The guy standing in line behind her said that he would be a witness if needed to be because he saw that she wasn't refused. Then he asked if we had diapers-he only came in for diapers. Then he said that he ate every other day so his wife and kids could eat. Needless to say, he walked out of there with more than just diapers. I made sure that he was going to eat that night and the following 2 nights (we always provided 3 days worth of food). 



Cat



and I think food banks/shelters/etc. are great. Like I said...if I had more money I would gladly donate to these sort of places. They help people who most of the time...truly need it.  Like I said, I don't want people to think that I am mean or anything, and I HAVE given homeless people money before. Infact, there have been people in Pittsburgh that will sit and play an instrument and they have an open case that you can throw some change/bills into. I admire those people more than the ones that just stand there with their hands open. Even though they might not be able to get a "real" job..at least they are doing SOMETHING, even if it is strumming a few songs on a guitar or playing the saxophone.

No, I don't know what it is like to be homeless...it would be a horrible things (that's an understatement, I'm sure). And Tia is probably right that if someone is destitute enough, no matter how proud they are....they would resort to begging for money, etc. I was just saying that I would do everything in my power before resorting to standing there at the end of a shopping center with a sign that says, "out of work...I need food/money."

Did anyone actually read the article or did I just waste 5 bucks on it (how fitting for the topic! ;D )?

Did anyone actually read the article or did I just waste 5 bucks on it (how fitting for the topic! ;D )?


I read it! You knew I would. ;) No..it was very informative...for sure. Even if it was only for a few days, it was a good tool to open up people's eyes and give them perhaps a small glimpse of how some people have to live the rest of their lives.

and I think food banks/shelters/etc. are great. Like I said...if I had more money I would gladly donate to these sort of places. They help people who most of the time...truly need it.  Like I said, I don't want people to think that I am mean or anything, and I HAVE given homeless people money before. Infact, there have been people in Pittsburgh that will sit and play an instrument and they have an open case that you can throw some change/bills into. I admire those people more than the ones that just stand there with their hands open. Even though they might not be able to get a "real" job..at least they are doing SOMETHING, even if it is strumming a few songs on a guitar or playing the saxophone.

No, I don't know what it is like to be homeless...it would be a horrible things (that's an understatement, I'm sure). And Tia is probably right that if someone is destitute enough, no matter how proud they are....they would resort to begging for money, etc. I was just saying that I would do everything in my power before resorting to standing there at the end of a shopping center with a sign that says, "out of work...I need food/money."



What bothers me is that we NEED to have food shelves and shelters. This is supposed to be the richest nation in the world and there is no excuse for having the poverty it does have and there is no excuse for children in this country having to go to bed hungry-if they even have a bed. It just makes me so angry. And yes, this is what free market does.



Cat

What bothers me is that we NEED to have food shelves and shelters. This is supposed to be the richest nation in the world and there is no excuse for having the poverty it does have and there is no excuse for children in this country having to go to bed hungry-if they even have a bed. It just makes me so angry. And yes, this is what free market does.



Cat


I agree Cat, it just doesn't make sense to me either. There are people (celebrities, sports figures, etc) who are making so much damn money that they literally don't even know what to do with half of it....and then on the flip-side there are people who don't even know where their next meal is coming from. That right there sickens me.

Most "homeless" people you meet aren't actually homeless.  People actually can make a decent second income off of begging in certain areas.

What bothers me is that we NEED to have food shelves and shelters. This is supposed to be the richest nation in the world and there is no excuse for having the poverty it does have and there is no excuse for children in this country having to go to bed hungry-if they even have a bed. It just makes me so angry. And yes, this is what free market does.



Cat


I was talking to my husband about this the other day.  I've been here only 10 months but have already been asked to donate to the food shelf four or five times. I don't recall ever being asked in the UK.  We couldn't decide if it was because food shelves were unnecessary in the UK or because they happen in a different way (i.e. all coming from 'out of date' food from the shops).  :-\\

Those people that dress better then you, Erin, could have gotten those clothes from Goodwill or Salvation Army too, ya know?

Maybe I'm a sucker, but I always try to help someone, sure it may be a scam, but what if it's not?  Sure the person may offer their sad story, whether it be truth or a made-up story, who am I to judge?  It could very well be me.  You and I are lucky that we have good family, friends that would help us out if something happened to us.  Yes, we can always work at McDonalds, but even then...it doesn't pay enough really to get very far.  It is nice (I do enjoy the street performers who play for tips) but I wouldn't consider them homeless (although they could be.) 

I guess if you are truly suspect about random people on the street, then just walk on by, but don't look on them with contempt or disgust, sometimes even just a smile will help someone to remain with their dignity.  When you do have extra money, then donate it to your choice of charities.  Whatever makes you feel most comfortable.  Everybody has their own criteria for being humane, my theory is "there but for the grace of God, go I".  And I am truly thankful for the blessings I've had in my life.  Given circumstances, I could easily be there myself.

I read it! You knew I would. ;) No..it was very informative...for sure. Even if it was only for a few days, it was a good tool to open up people's eyes and give them perhaps a small glimpse of how some people have to live the rest of their lives.

Thanks hon. :) I just didn't want to feel like I embarrased myself. ;)

You know, I really respect that ex-auto mechanic with a heart condition he talked to who said that no matter how hard things got, he refused to rob anyone or commit a crime, just because it's wrong. That makes it even more tragic that he (and people like him) are in those shoes and that there's not much of an alternative.



What bothers me is that we NEED to have food shelves and shelters. This is supposed to be the richest nation in the world and there is no excuse for having the poverty it does have and there is no excuse for children in this country having to go to bed hungry-if they even have a bed. It just makes me so angry. And yes, this is what free market does.

Yeah, what's even worse is that shelters sometimes aren't much better than the streets anyway. There's way more homeless people than beds, so it's impossible to even come close to accomodating everyone.

I agree though. This isn't a third world country, yet in every city and town it's an ongoing problem. Sure, there's some who got there from their own doing, by drugs and alcohol or some other choice (although they still don't deserve it, of course), but a good number of them are probably innocent victims who shouldn't be there at all. Kids who ran away from home, familes who can't pay the rent, old or sick people, etc.

P.S. People like panhandlers who harass you (or who are bogus) probably are bad in TWO ways, because they also make the genuine and respectable people on the streets look bad by comparison. And because people might be less willing to help the good ones, just because of the "homeless image" in general.

I just wanted to make something clear. By no means do I (or would I ever) belittle a homeless person or act in anyway like I am better than them...that is certainly not in my nature.  I am a really nice person too...but just because I don't trust people and for the most part think that most people are lying to me...and choose not to give homeless people money....does not make me a bad person. I simply don't have the money to give either.

You're right...McDonald's jobs don't get you far...but guess what? I respect those people that are at least TRYING to be out there working. Yes....working fast food would have to be the crappiest job (little pay, long hours, going home smelling like old food, dealing with crabby customers, etc)....but at least they are trying. At least they aren't sitting at home expecting welfare to support them....or holding "I need money" signs out on the street expecting every Tom, Dick, and Harry to support them.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh...but I just cannot stand when someone tries to pull a fast one on someone else...and there's no way of really knowing for sure whether or not the "homeless" person is truly homeless or destitute.  Personally I just can't afford to give to all of them and assume that they are all legit and need help. I don't have the means to do that.

I just wanted to make it clear though that I would never make fun of, or snub, or treat a street person in an ill manner. That's horrible when people do that to them.

honestly i think the whole "welfare queen" thing is pretty much a myth. what welfare pays, no one would actually want to live on. truth be told, in some countries in europe unemployment pays enough benefits that you can actually suck on the teat if you care to but welfare in this country pretty much pays so little that you wind up homeless anyway. the republicans have, with the occasional hiccup, been running things since 1981 so do you really think welfare would count for anything at this point? heck no.

there's no safety net for the poor in this country. however, if you're a big airline or a mortgage lender looking for a bailout because you've been shafting families with sham subprime mortgages, that's a different story. in that case, it's billions of taxpayer dollars falling from the sky as far as the eye can see. but if you're sticking out a shaking hand for a buck in the street because you're starving and addicted? bah. whatever.

honestly i think the whole "welfare queen" thing is pretty much a myth. what welfare pays, no one would actually want to live on. truth be told, in some countries in europe unemployment pays enough benefits that you can actually suck on the teat if you care to but welfare in this country pretty much pays so little that you wind up homeless anyway. the republicans have, with the occasional hiccup, been running things since 1981 so do you really think welfare would count for anything at this point? heck no.

there's no safety net for the poor in this country. however, if you're a big airline or a mortgage lender looking for a bailout because you've been shafting families with sham subprime mortgages, that's a different story. in that case, it's billions of taxpayer dollars falling from the sky as far as the eye can see. but if you're sticking out a shaking hand for a buck in the street because you're starving and addicted? bah. whatever.



http://smileys.smilchat.net/smileys/music/applause.gif



Cat

To get a job of any kind, you usually need a permanent address. I'm not making excuses, but that is the sad truth of it. To get help to get back on your feet? Same thing. Permanent address.

Living in a big city like Chicago, I have seen the panhandlers out in full force. I have seen the ones who are legit (like the poor old man down by the MSI that shuffles along, not really aware of where he is or what he's doing...hell, I don't even know if he panhandles), and the ones who might not be (guy by the deli who is always wearing expensive clothes).

I don't hate them because I don't know their circumstances. They could be homeless and begging for money because no one has given them a break, they could be panhandling because they are mentally disabled, hell, they could be panhandling because they lost their job, their house, their car, their dog, etc.

It brings to mind the story my mom told me about some people that were panhandling outside of Costco. It was a married couple who had lost EVERYTHING because of the downturn in the economy. They offered to wash my mom's windows for a few bucks, a quarter, whatever she could spare. While the husband was talking to my mom, the wife approached another lady about it. In typical fashion, the woman sniped at them about getting a real job, so the woman told her, "Look, if I had a choice, I wouldn't be out here. I was like you, I had everything in the world, and I lost it all through no fault of my own." The broad didn't know what to say to that.

I guess my points are that we don't know their circumstances, even if they are well dressed. They could have dug those clothes out somewhere or they could be relics from a lost life of luxury. I also remember that if things keep up, I could wind up in their shoes, and it's not going to kill me to give the change I have in my pocket, because someone is ALWAYS worse off than I am.



I totally agree. Some cities are banning begging! It's like saying "hey a**hole bums: you can LEAVE our city, steal and get put in our jails, or starve!"

>:(

I think what complicates matters sometimes (not sure whether it's a British thing or what) but we do have 'professional beggars' who literally beg for a living on top of what they get already and do alright out of it.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/124680/why_professional_beggars_earn_more.html

Now I am obviously not suggesting all people who beg are professional but I walk by a bridge where beggars regularly pitch about three or four times a week. It is dry in there and lots of people walk past. These people sometimes own immaculate dogs (used as a sympathy prop) and are better dressed than I am.

For the most part, I think you help them more by not giving them money if it is for food, and possibly shelter in the bigger cities, as mentioned. because we have the resources to supply them with those basics..TELLING THEM WHERE THE NEAREST SHELTER HELPS MORE..I let them know in LA they have at least 12 different food shelters, giving free food away(now the amount is dwindling from the economy-they are in need)..

Some reports I recalled showed some of the beggars, packing up the sign and going behind a building to their 'cadillacs' and home...

Basic figuring, some take in 50$ an hour 8 hour days=400..I might give it a try!

Akron Ohio figured a way recently to 'control' the begging..they now issue registration cards to those who want to park themselves on a corner..away from events,banks ATMS and
areas of town. If you carry the ID/REGISTRATION, they know you are registered..and let you carry and there are about 40 registered to date.

San Francisco has a system, where the beggars are, that has a 'parking meter' device set up. You get asked, instead you put the money you would have given them and put it into the meter instead.. they then use that money collected for services to help the down and outters...if it doesn't work in time, they will take them down.
Beggars laugh thinking they won't leave just because they have meters up...I laugh too.Not a bright idea.


Also see them around churches as they know people are in a helpful/guilty mood then..ok, drop a few coins, but then they are BACK week after week and I know they should have enough to be on their feet by a certain time if they are trying..that's when I yell ENOUGH!

I've become hip to the system and now sell beggars magic markers so they can make up signs. I'm really cleaning up!

Also, guess we'll need to help Ed McMahon come up with the $600,000 he needs to keep his house from foreclosing ,anyone else chipping in?

THOUGHT:WHY ARE STREET PEOPLE'S SHOES ALWAYS DIRTY? (THEY JUST STAND AND SIT.)    

Basic figuring, some take in 50$ an hour 8 hour days=400..I might give it a try!

so let me state the obvious: if begging on the street nets $50 an hour, doesn't that mean there must not be any such thing as actual homelessness and all the people you see on the street who appear to be homeless are actually netting six figures annually by panhandling? and if so, does that really jibe with what you see on the street?

i dunno, what i see when i walk down the street is that hardly anyone gives them any money, and if i do i look in their cup and i usually see a smattering of nickels and dimes, maybe a dollar or two. now it could be they're all such fabulous shysters that they are surreptitiously shoveling all these wads of cash they're making into some hidden pocket every minute or so (remember, that kind of net would be like getting a quarter approximately EVERY FIFTEEN SECONDS) to keep the cup empty so that no one catches on, but i doubt it. it also seems like i'd be seeing someone dropping change in a beggar's cup more or less constantly when i'm downtown, but i dont.

i dunno, i rather think it's a fantasy, the fabulously rich beggar thing, much like the welfare queen boogieman from the reagan era -- the woman who inexplicably loves to live in crime ridden projects and subsist on meager welfare payments and continually have more and more illegitimate children because she just, inscrutably, wants nothing more than to exploit the hard-working taxpayer. no, in fact, single mothers in the projects suffer greatly and are not, in fact, exploiting the good nature and generosity of passersby in order to get a second house in the hamptons. it's a right wing fantasy.

honestly i think the whole "welfare queen" thing is pretty much a myth. what welfare pays, no one would actually want to live on. truth be told, in some countries in europe unemployment pays enough benefits that you can actually suck on the teat if you care to but welfare in this country pretty much pays so little that you wind up homeless anyway. the republicans have, with the occasional hiccup, been running things since 1981 so do you really think welfare would count for anything at this point? heck no.

there's no safety net for the poor in this country. however, if you're a big airline or a mortgage lender looking for a bailout because you've been shafting families with sham subprime mortgages, that's a different story. in that case, it's billions of taxpayer dollars falling from the sky as far as the eye can see. but if you're sticking out a shaking hand for a buck in the street because you're starving and addicted? bah. whatever.


The official "poverty level" for a family of four in this country is $17,000 a year!
;D

Tia's right, there really is no social safety net in this country and there are a whole lot of right-wingers who fought tooth-and-nail to make it that way.  McCain would say, "I'm wounded vet, and I'm not homeless.  Marry a beer heiress like I did, ya bums!"

The notion that panhandling pays a good living is canard.  Go apply for an apartment or a mortgage and put "panhandler" in the occupation section and see how far you get!

I do know some homeless people "choose" to sleep outdoors because shelters are dirty and dangerous and the staff treat the residents with nothing even approaching dignity. 

so let me state the obvious: if begging on the street nets $50 an hour, doesn't that mean there must not be any such thing as actual homelessness and all the people you see on the street who appear to be homeless are actually netting six figures annually by panhandling? and if so, does that really jibe with what you see on the street?

i dunno, what i see when i walk down the street is that hardly anyone gives them any money, and if i do i look in their cup and i usually see a smattering of nickels and dimes, maybe a dollar or two. now it could be they're all such fabulous shysters that they are surreptitiously shoveling all these wads of cash they're making into some hidden pocket every minute or so (remember, that kind of net would be like getting a quarter approximately EVERY FIFTEEN SECONDS) to keep the cup empty so that no one catches on, but i doubt it. it also seems like i'd be seeing someone dropping change in a beggar's cup more or less constantly when i'm downtown, but i dont.

i dunno, i rather think it's a fantasy, the fabulously rich beggar thing, much like the welfare queen boogieman from the reagan era -- the woman who inexplicably loves to live in crime ridden projects and subsist on meager welfare payments and continually have more and more illegitimate children because she just, inscrutably, wants nothing more than to exploit the hard-working taxpayer. no, in fact, single mothers in the projects suffer greatly and are not, in fact, exploiting the good nature and generosity of passersby in order to get a second house in the hamptons. it's a right wing fantasy.


There is a faction who knows how to 'work the system' and I make mention of someof them as you can eventually peel away the onion to get to the ones who are legit...I don't think homeless/cardboard box sleepers are going to get a registration card...some may have a source of pride but  you never hear a psychiatrist analyze the homeless mind following the news reports which I think should be worked in to the story.

There are valso the beggar who have a beef with the govmt. and are hiding in the hills for tax reason(this I know because I gave one a ride, when we thought they were down and out)..

Will there be poor always..perhaps due to lack of educating some to the financial ways of the world...then who's fault is it...I look to blame the source not throw out 'if the govmnt gave them hope,if their families ony took them in'..I had a relative who was an alcoholic..the family woldn't associate with them unless they stopped drinking,... they didn't and eventually was found on a sidewalk passed out with medical problems that went unaddressed from the disease.

So shouldn't we be saying: HELP THE HOMELESS...but add..HELP THEMSELVES?

The official "poverty level" for a family of four in this country is $17,000 a year!
;D

Tia's right, there really is no social safety net in this country and there are a whole lot of right-wingers who fought tooth-and-nail to make it that way.  McCain would say, "I'm wounded vet, and I'm not homeless.  Marry a beer heiress like I did, ya bums!"

The notion that panhandling pays a good living is canard.  Go apply for an apartment or a mortgage and put "panhandler" in the occupation section and see how far you get!

I do know some homeless people "choose" to sleep outdoors because shelters are dirty and dangerous and the staff treat the residents with nothing even approaching dignity. 




Darn it, I should have been born a Hilton..GOD..WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO ME! I have to 'figure out' how to survive now...

I never really know whether or not to give a homeless person some change, cause you don't really know if they are actually homeless

One local guy around here always begs for change, but one day I saw him wearing an expensive suit coming out of an expensive clothing store with a shopping bag.  He could have saved up all his change to buy those things, but if that were true, then I would be married to Rachel McAdams ;D

honestly i think the whole "welfare queen" thing is pretty much a myth. what welfare pays, no one would actually want to live on. truth be told, in some countries in europe unemployment pays enough benefits that you can actually suck on the teat if you care to but welfare in this country pretty much pays so little that you wind up homeless anyway. the republicans have, with the occasional hiccup, been running things since 1981 so do you really think welfare would count for anything at this point? heck no.

there's no safety net for the poor in this country. however, if you're a big airline or a mortgage lender looking for a bailout because you've been shafting families with sham subprime mortgages, that's a different story. in that case, it's billions of taxpayer dollars falling from the sky as far as the eye can see. but if you're sticking out a shaking hand for a buck in the street because you're starving and addicted? bah. whatever.



it's no mystery that the more children you have the more you can get on welfare. Believe me..I live in an area that is very prevalent for people abusing the system. I have known women who have 4-5 different children to different fathers...and they have a live-in boyfriend who has a job, but guess what? Since they aren't married...they don't have to claim his income. So you have this woman who doesn't work, has 5 kids...and gets a TON of food stamps and cash assistance (even though she really doesn't need it, due to the fact that the boyfriend makes a decent living) plus her child support from the 5 different men that fathered her children. It happens...and these people live very comfortably on government assistance. It's pretty sick.

it's no mystery that the more children you have the more you can get on welfare. Believe me..I live in an area that is very prevalent for people abusing the system. I have known women who have 4-5 different children to different fathers...and they have a live-in boyfriend who has a job, but guess what? Since they aren't married...they don't have to claim his income. So you have this woman who doesn't work, has 5 kids...and gets a TON of food stamps and cash assistance (even though she really doesn't need it, due to the fact that the boyfriend makes a decent living) plus her child support from the 5 different men that fathered her children. It happens...and these people live very comfortably on government assistance. It's pretty sick.
can i have a specific example? a link of some kind to some specific statistics that would back this up? because to me it really sounds dubious. i mean, do these women still have to support these five children? or are they just claiming the benefits while leaving the kids with relatives? in any case, from what you describe it doesn't sound like youre talking about people really making cushy livings off of welfare but if you have evidence i'd love to see it.

i'd also love to see actual evidence of people making 50 dollars an hour panhandling. this stuff sounds like bigfoot sightings to me, sorry.

i'd also love to see actual evidence of people making 50 dollars an hour panhandling. this stuff sounds like bigfoot sightings to me, sorry.

At least in LA they make far more than that, as they wait at the end of freeway ramps, some with signs, others with former vet signs....I even think in one state they challenged a guy and found out he was not a vet..but yes , in LA people are seen giving out $5 bills, get enough regularly and you can have a good life.

 

At least in LA they make far more than that, as they wait at the end of freeway ramps, some with signs, others with former vet signs....I even think in one state they challenged a guy and found out he was not a vet..but yes , in LA people are seen giving out $5 bills, get enough regularly and you can have a good life.

 
evidence please. when i look on the streets i see crazy people who obviously haven't had a bath in weeks. i see no evidence whatsoever that they're raking in cash, and i trust no one else reading this has seen any either. if you have anything tangible to offer to contradict that i'd love to see it but otherwise i'll just go with what i see. these people are obviously poor and suffering. and this myth is a way to blame them for being poor and suffering.

I work in the city, I see the homeless everyday.  I get tired of people who talk about them as if they were all one in the same, with the same capabilities.  As with everything you may have someone in the pack who gets more than they should or has capabilities beyond pan handling, but the majority a truly damaged individuals  who for whatever reason have found themselves in a very bleak position.  Mental illness is a big part of it, there is also speculation that a large number could possibly have autism that was undiagnosed.  These people should have been eligible for services, but a combination of circumstances, usually to do with family economics, have rendered them to the streets.  I have learned to never, ever, judge the circumstances of a homeless person.

evidence please. when i look on the streets i see crazy people who obviously haven't had a bath in weeks. i see no evidence whatsoever that they're raking in cash, and i trust no one else reading this has seen any either. if you have anything tangible to offer to contradict that i'd love to see it but otherwise i'll just go with what i see. these people are obviously poor and suffering. and this myth is a way to blame them for being poor and suffering.


FROM OPEN MARKET.ORG:

Panhandling Drug Addicts Make $60 Per Hour
Posted by Hans Bader
Welcome to OpenMarket.org! Please consider Subscribing to our RSS feed, so you don’t miss any of the news and analysis brought to you by CEI’s policy experts.

A homeless panhandling drug addict in New York City makes about $1 per minute from donations from the public during rush hour, Steven Levitt notes in the New York Times. That’s $60 an hour. Such extravagance by the public makes little sense. But then, people give money to homeless panhandlers, and thus finance their drug habits, out of political correctness and irrational guilt, not logic.

By contrast, when my wife, a legal immigrant, worked for an embassy in Washington, D.C., she made $14,000 per year — less than 12 cents a minute. That’s less than one eighth of what a panhandling drug addict makes.

(She could have made far more money working for another employer as an illegal alien, but she wanted to abide by the law, and since she didn’t have a green card, the only way she could legally remain in the U.S., and work in the the U.S., was by working for a foreign government in a low-paying job).

Panhandlers save basically no money. My wife saved $4,000 per year on a $14,000 a year salary, spending less money on food than the poorest food stamp recipients receive in food stamps. (Lawmakers are currently working to increase the amount of food stamps welfare recipients receive, falsely claiming it’s impossible to eat well on a food-stamps budget, even though I and many others have spent less on food than food stamp recipients do).

But the panhandlers are considered “oppressed” victims of society by liberal academics and journalists, while my wife isn’t. (Ironically, illegal aliens are treated by liberal newspapers as “oppressed,” but legal immigrants like my wife are not, and receive no sympathy. The Seattle Times, for example, editorialized in favor of efforts by liberal legislators to exclude legal immigrants from in-state tuition rates that the Washington State legislature had made available to illegal aliens).

When I began work at a public-interest law firm, after graduating from Harvard Law School, I was initially paid $28,000 per year, while working over 50 hours a week. I was thus paid less than 20 cents a minute — less than a fifth of what a panhandling drug addict receives. I still managed to save money.

(As a result of my savings, and only as a result of my savings, I would not have qualified for government assistance in purchasing a home — a Washington Post story reported that in Alexandria, Virginia, people who have no savings to make a down payment for a home have received a zero-interest loan from the federal government to make a down payment, a loan they do not have to repay until many years later, when they sell their home. What a crime it is to be thrifty and save money).

Aesop’s Fables tells the parable of the ant and the grasshopper. The thrifty ant, who has saved up reserves of food, lives through winter, while the irresponsible grasshopper, who has saved nothing to eat, starves. In our society, by contrast, the ant is heavily taxed so that the the irresponsible grasshopper can live it up even while claiming to be oppressed.

evidence please. when i look on the streets i see crazy people who obviously haven't had a bath in weeks. i see no evidence whatsoever that they're raking in cash, and i trust no one else reading this has seen any either. if you have anything tangible to offer to contradict that i'd love to see it but otherwise i'll just go with what i see. these people are obviously poor and suffering. and this myth is a way to blame them for being poor and suffering.


ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COUNTRY-KOMO(Ore.) news...Associated Press story Feb. 2008

By Associated Press
COOS BAY, Ore. - A police survey says panhandlers outside Wal-Mart in Coos Bay can make $300 a day. Inside, it takes a clerk a week to make that much.

Police say people who have a problem with that needn't look to the law - asking for money is considered protected free speech.

Coos Bay authorities say most panhandlers are not criminals.

Coos Bay Police Captain Rodger Craddock says most have lived in the city a long time and they actually have homes. Craddock says, "This is just their chosen profession."

He says most are docile, and that people should report those who are not.

Bob More, director of housing and emergency services at South Coast Community Action, says many panhandlers are there for the money - to feed their addictions.

He suggested a voucher system involving tickets people could give that are good for a meal or bed in a shelter.

Another "well I know this one guy" story.  "I know this one guy" stories are for the uneducated,  undereducated, and the miseducated. 

Another "well I know this one guy" story.  "I know this one guy" stories are for the uneducated,  undereducated, and the miseducated. 


Do you want them to say : 'Hey, panhandlers here ALL make.......' Of course once 1 story is told, you'll hear many more..they aren't gathering all panhandlers together, they are making people aware of those benefiting otherwise it would be known as a FRANCHISE and people would quit their jobs to rush out and see how much they'll pull in!

The fact is they are making out like bandits needy or not..there is even a course on 'HOW TO PANHANDLE EFFECTIVELY and make more than others.

There are also news shows that have done reports on this so it may sound like a 'One guy I know makes..' but it is happening...

And do you think they would all brag as to how much they make..(they don't need no traxmen looking for them...

(When you have people 'teaching'), It's a racket of sorts.

Carry a list of shelters with you and pass that out to them, they'll get the message you care enough to help them. 

So what is the answer for the panhandler or homeless person who asks you for change so they can get to the nearest shelter? I just want to know, because I see many posts on here arguing how they're going to blow the money on drugs or whatever. What do you do when they say outright that they're trying to get to a shelter or to a soup kitchen because they're tired and/or hungry?

Yes, I have had this happen to me before, and yes, I did give them bus fare.

So what is the answer for the panhandler or homeless person who asks you for change so they can get to the nearest shelter? I just want to know, because I see many posts on here arguing how they're going to blow the money on drugs or whatever. What do you do when they say outright that they're trying to get to a shelter or to a soup kitchen because they're tired and/or hungry?

Yes, I have had this happen to me before, and yes, I did give them bus fare.


HELP THEM HELP THEMSELVES....instead of money, (some people have preprinted cards that..)gives them the location of the nearest FREE shelter, FOOD BANKS, Free medical Clinics, lowcost housingYMCA/Battered womens shelter, Church Charity 'give-aways'. 

For those who just hit a roadbump...Librarys who will computer train them, unemployment offices who will find work for them.temp-agencies who will train them.

They need food, shelter and clothes...not ipods,whiskey and drugs. 

The country takes care of most of these needs, then there are the small community charities that jump in...Also for some that offer shelter, usually a mission, all the mission asks is to join in prayer services,and lights out at 9pm.  many leave as they don't want to be governed by such rules...well..they can't have eveything they want at this point.

Here's another one of THOSE stories of a couple w/children and again they point out they make $30,000 from begging...
What other proof can be offered?

Affluent beggars" draw scrutiny for their lifestyle
By The Associated Press


ASHLAND, Ore. — A couple with three children who make a living as panhandlers say they are surprised by public attention to their lifestyle.

Jason Pancoast and Elizabeth Johnson, who describe themselves as "affluent beggars," say they are able to maintain a well-fed and well-dressed family by living off the streets.

"What has happened is that we're going along with a lifestyle that you couldn't imagine we should have," Pancoast said.

A story in the Sunday edition of the Mail Tribune newspaper in Medford noted the couple sometimes make up to $300 a day and once made $800.

But the report also triggered an outcry from residents. People have yelled at Pancoast and threatened him since the story was published, he said.

Angry e-mails and letters to the Mail Tribune have described the couple as tax evaders, bad role models for their children, "common thieves" and abusers of a food-stamp program designed to help people temporarily down on their luck. Pancoast and Johnson said they receive $500 a month in food stamps.

Local radio talk shows have spent airtime taking calls about Pancoast, 34, and Johnson, 30. The couple appeared this week on a Portland radio show, and national media also have expressed interest in interviewing them.

The couple say they use their money to get a safe place for their children to sleep, a warm meal and good clothes.

"We're challenging the stereotype of being a beggar," Johnson said.

But former Ashland mayor and local businessman Alan DeBoer, who gave Johnson $200 before Christmas, said that after learning more about the couple, he believes they are conning people, even using their 3-month-old baby as a prop.

 


DeBoer said he regrets his generosity toward Johnson and would not give her any more money.

Begging has become so commonplace that you find people at almost every freeway offramp, he said.

"You almost have to make panhandling in Oregon illegal," DeBoer said.

Pancoast, who estimates he and his wife can make $30,000 to $40,000 a year panhandling, said people have certain expectations of the homeless that are vastly different from the way he tries to live.

He said that he and his wife have no assets and are currently living in an Ashland motel. The couple were staying at another local motel, but the manager asked them to leave because of negative publicity, Pancoast said.

The couple say they stay in motels because it is difficult for a family with no consistent income and three children to find housing.

Pancoast, who is outspoken in many of his beliefs, said Ashland is being run more and more by the rich who can't tolerate different lifestyles.

Pointing to the expensive homes on the hills surrounding town, he said, "Is this community theirs or is it ours?"

Patty Claeys, chief executive of ACCESS, a housing agency, said she commends the couple for being with their children and taking care of them. But she noted most people have to sacrifice time with their children in order to earn a living.

She said ACCESS could help the couple find a house, but they would have to show some kind of income.

"As long as people live in that kind of lifestyle, what are they teaching their children?" Claeys said.

Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company

HELP THEM HELP THEMSELVES....instead of money, (some people have preprinted cards that..)gives them the location of the nearest FREE shelter, FOOD BANKS, Free medical Clinics, lowcost housingYMCA/Battered womens shelter, Church Charity 'give-aways'. 

For those who just hit a roadbump...Librarys who will computer train them, unemployment offices who will find work for them.temp-agencies who will train them.

They need food, shelter and clothes...not ipods,whiskey and drugs. 

The country takes care of most of these needs, then there are the small community charities that jump in...Also for some that offer shelter, usually a mission, all the mission asks is to join in prayer services,and lights out at 9pm.  many leave as they don't want to be governed by such rules...well..they can't have eveything they want at this point.

Here's another one of THOSE stories of a couple w/children and again they point out they make $30,000 from begging...
What other proof can be offered?

Affluent beggars" draw scrutiny for their lifestyle
By The Associated Press


ASHLAND, Ore. — A couple with three children who make a living as panhandlers say they are surprised by public attention to their lifestyle.

Jason Pancoast and Elizabeth Johnson, who describe themselves as "affluent beggars," say they are able to maintain a well-fed and well-dressed family by living off the streets.

"What has happened is that we're going along with a lifestyle that you couldn't imagine we should have," Pancoast said.

A story in the Sunday edition of the Mail Tribune newspaper in Medford noted the couple sometimes make up to $300 a day and once made $800.

But the report also triggered an outcry from residents. People have yelled at Pancoast and threatened him since the story was published, he said.

Angry e-mails and letters to the Mail Tribune have described the couple as tax evaders, bad role models for their children, "common thieves" and abusers of a food-stamp program designed to help people temporarily down on their luck. Pancoast and Johnson said they receive $500 a month in food stamps.

Local radio talk shows have spent airtime taking calls about Pancoast, 34, and Johnson, 30. The couple appeared this week on a Portland radio show, and national media also have expressed interest in interviewing them.

The couple say they use their money to get a safe place for their children to sleep, a warm meal and good clothes.

"We're challenging the stereotype of being a beggar," Johnson said.

But former Ashland mayor and local businessman Alan DeBoer, who gave Johnson $200 before Christmas, said that after learning more about the couple, he believes they are conning people, even using their 3-month-old baby as a prop.

 


DeBoer said he regrets his generosity toward Johnson and would not give her any more money.

Begging has become so commonplace that you find people at almost every freeway offramp, he said.

"You almost have to make panhandling in Oregon illegal," DeBoer said.

Pancoast, who estimates he and his wife can make $30,000 to $40,000 a year panhandling, said people have certain expectations of the homeless that are vastly different from the way he tries to live.

He said that he and his wife have no assets and are currently living in an Ashland motel. The couple were staying at another local motel, but the manager asked them to leave because of negative publicity, Pancoast said.

The couple say they stay in motels because it is difficult for a family with no consistent income and three children to find housing.

Pancoast, who is outspoken in many of his beliefs, said Ashland is being run more and more by the rich who can't tolerate different lifestyles.

Pointing to the expensive homes on the hills surrounding town, he said, "Is this community theirs or is it ours?"

Patty Claeys, chief executive of ACCESS, a housing agency, said she commends the couple for being with their children and taking care of them. But she noted most people have to sacrifice time with their children in order to earn a living.

She said ACCESS could help the couple find a house, but they would have to show some kind of income.

"As long as people live in that kind of lifestyle, what are they teaching their children?" Claeys said.

Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company



That didn't answer my question at ALL. Let me repeat it: Would you give money to someone who asked for bus fare so they could get to a shelter, a food bank, a soup kitchen, etc.?

And that story is completely irrelevant to what I asked.

Shelters fill up fast.  Especially with today's economy.  There are whole families out on the streets, and at least here in Dayton (where we have at least a couple shelters) in the winter, women and children get priority over men to sleep for the night. 

In my small town where I grew up, our town (population less then 5,000 people) we had a Salvation Army Barracks, which housed people for a maximum of 30 nights, they fed you breakfast then kicked you out (no matter whether it was 90 degree heat or snow up to your ears).  They would then trudge en masse down to the library I worked at and read the classified ads or get on the public internet terminal (which I would have to show them how to sign on to the Unemployment Bureau website and just teach them how to do general websurfing.) 

Most of these people did not have homes (one family got "lucky" and got on with a traveling carnival - the husband set the rides up and the wife sat with the two small children.)  That is seasonal work at best and I'm sure doesn't pay alot. 

I truly think that the deck is stacked against poor people nowadays, once you've reached the stage of panhandling, it's harder then hell to get out of it. 

Just carrying the names and addresses of a shelter seems like a coward's way out of helping out your fellow man.  It's a ointment to sooth your soul "Well at least I am helping them help themselves!"  How in the world are you doing that?  By giving them an address of a shelter that is probably full already and also has limited time limits and limited resources to help those in the worst need?  If you don't want to help a homeless person directly, then donate to a food shelter, donate time if you don't have money, or if you don't want to do that...then help the charities out by getting out the word to potential companies that might be able to help!  If you know a grocery is throwing out food or has items in clearence that can't be sold, buy them and donate them. 

It just pains me to see the attitude of "well there must be something wrong if they let themselves become homeless"  Well duh! 
I think we are all responsible to help our fellow man, even in small ways, there is much higher reward for being selfless and caring then being bitter.  At least that is my opinion anyways.  I may not be able to help much, but I do what I can.

When I was first attending college in Berkeley, I used to give my disposable income to homeless folks on the street. 

I recall there was one guy near the BART station who was trying to sell his newspaper for a dollar to go towards a night at the shelter.  I asked him how much it would cost to spend the night there, and then gave him the money and told him to keep the newspaper to sell to someone else for food.

Another time I happened upon a poor gentleman who needed money to feed his three kids.  Who knows if he actually had three kids or whether he just needed crack, but I gave him $20.  He asked me for more, but I told him I just couldn't spare that kind of money.

Every now and then a homeless will go into one of the restaurants to ask the patrons for money.  There was this one heavyset lady who always had a thin kid in tow, and she would ask for change to feed the kid.  Now you might ask, "Hey, who are we actually feeding here?"  My friend refused, which nobody can blame him for (he was probably soured to giving all the time anyway), but I dug into my pocket and gave her what I had.  I saw the same lady and kid a few weeks later at one of the campus restaurants, where another student bought her a burrito.

Sometimes I just didn't have any change.  A man accosted me once for spare change, and when I told him truthfully that I didn't have any, he told me to go to hell and stop being the devil.  Go figure.

I admire my wife's generosity too.  She would give something like $5 or $10 to a lucky homeless person we would happen upon on our travels, or to help someone pay for gas if they were stranded.  I would blanche at it for a second but wouldn't actually say anything, because I realized that some people would need that $5 or $10 more...and oftentimes they would go right into the nearest restaurant and buy food. 

One time we were in San Francisco and this one bum scared the living crap out of another passerby.  He was "camouflaged" with some palm fronds or something and just leapt up, to get a laugh.  I laughed quite a bit, I think we gave him $10.  Good times.

I think my point is that we shouldn't judge, but take the more simplistic route of "Well, I have extra money...and this guy might need it, so maybe I should give it to him."  I figure it'll earn me some points with the big guy later on anyway :)

HELP THEM HELP THEMSELVES....instead of money, (some people have preprinted cards that..)gives them the location of the nearest FREE shelter, FOOD BANKS, Free medical Clinics, lowcost housingYMCA/Battered womens shelter, Church Charity 'give-aways'. 

For those who just hit a roadbump...Librarys who will computer train them, unemployment offices who will find work for them.temp-agencies who will train them.

They need food, shelter and clothes...not ipods,whiskey and drugs. 

The country takes care of most of these needs, then there are the small community charities that jump in...Also for some that offer shelter, usually a mission, all the mission asks is to join in prayer services,and lights out at 9pm.  many leave as they don't want to be governed by such rules...well..they can't have eveything they want at this point.





You are SOOOOO wrong about this-which is why these people are on the streets in the first place. If the country DID take care of these needs-there wouldn't be a need for shelters, food shelves, etc. etc.


Cat

Just carrying the names and addresses of a shelter seems like a coward's way out of helping out your fellow man.  It's a ointment to sooth your soul "Well at least I am helping them help themselves!"  How in the world are you doing that?  By giving them an address of a shelter that is probably full already and also has limited time limits and limited resources to help those in the worst need?   If you don't want to help a homeless person directly, then donate to a food shelter, donate time if you don't have money, or if you don't want to do that...then help the charities out by getting out the word to potential companies that might be able to help!  If you know a grocery is throwing out food or has items in clearence that can't be sold, buy them and donate them. 



There are many ways as wellas you state..probably at that point, making the rounds gives you another 'job' to help them..But carrying the info to give out is FAR MORE help to give them then extra change!

GIVE A MAN A FISH HE EATS FOR A DAY...etc...it fits the saying.

That didn't answer my question at ALL. Let me repeat it: Would you give money to someone who asked for bus fare so they could get to a shelter, a food bank, a soup kitchen, etc.?

And that story is completely irrelevant to what I asked.


That article was to those again who needed more on the earnings.

I take it case by case when asked but rarely give out money.

If the person surely is in dire need, I will make it a little better for them.

However, 99% of the people who approached me,were regular panhanders learning if they stay in the doorway, people will give them $$ and they come back.
If they need help to a shelter and they are no one near one..as long as they understand that's the point of the gift,and they get on the bus, well done..you can't tell them 'now, don't go buying candy with this, it's for the bus'...

But there are those who blatantly told me their cars were out of gas, their ride left without them etc..I learned to keep a gas can in my trunk and when asked for gas moneyt as their 'car is out of gas down the road', I let them know..'Lucky day! I have a can and will buy them some' let's go! amazing how many of them have INVISIBLE CARS! 

If someoneis grateful for the advice to see the shelter people, I will give them help...maybe they aren''t aware of all the programs out there..ther is no reason for anyone to be without food ,shelter, or clothing in the US...

Do what you want with your money, if I'm in that postion of need, I'm glad I'm educated enough to know where to get a handout.
When I have seen homeless with ragged clothes talking to themselves, I dug further and found THANKS to Ronald Regan, he permitted many mentally challenged to be released from care to walk the streets years ago, and there they are!

As long as they can say their name address(?) and who's president, they are sane enough to walk.

I don't throw moneyout and make that my 'good deed' as another seems to say they do..it is better for me to know I directed them to the stream..it's up to them to drink!

You are SOOOOO wrong about this-which is why these people are on the streets in the first place. If the country DID take care of these needs-there wouldn't be a need for shelters, food shelves, etc. etc.


Cat


Whoa1 Are you saying 'The Government is RESPONSIBLE, that Mary didn't get to go to a good school, get an education how to take care of herself through life, bob should get help because he loved drinking soooo much he losthis job, a woman who 'loaded up' in the kid department without caution-whether hubby would run out on her or die, should be given help regularly...I'D LOVE TO LIVE IN THAT COUNTRY THAT WOULD DO THAT FOR ME!!

I don't throw moneyout and make that my 'good deed' as another seems to say they do..it is better for me to know I directed them to the stream..it's up to them to drink!


I don't do it to make it my "good deed". I have no need for brownie points or keeping score or whatever the f**k you want to call it. I do it because I don't know their circumstances, and it could easily be me out there one day. Have you noticed what is happening to the economy? Yeah, a lot of middle class people are being reduced to living on the streets. It could even happen to you someday, and don't tell me it couldn't. ::)

can i have a specific example? a link of some kind to some specific statistics that would back this up? because to me it really sounds dubious. i mean, do these women still have to support these five children? or are they just claiming the benefits while leaving the kids with relatives? in any case, from what you describe it doesn't sound like youre talking about people really making cushy livings off of welfare but if you have evidence i'd love to see it.

i'd also love to see actual evidence of people making 50 dollars an hour panhandling. this stuff sounds like bigfoot sightings to me, sorry.


let me get their phone numbers..I'll forward them to you.

I don't do it to make it my "good deed". I have no need for brownie points or keeping score or whatever the f**k you want to call it. I do it because I don't know their circumstances, and it could easily be me out there one day. Have you noticed what is happening to the economy? Yeah, a lot of middle class people are being reduced to living on the streets. It could even happen to you someday, and don't tell me it couldn't. ::)


Others who wrote DID say they did it to be their feel good moment..(didn't say you did)....I am more WATCHFUL of the money I EARN, so I don't hand mine out 'willy-nilly' and maybe ask their circumstance to weed out the leeches..If you hand money out like that, would you like some land in Florida site unseen?..there's the point..

Yes, there are those who are in dire need, but a word to the wise, ask...I don't give the thought any power by thinking what I would do, but I am resourceful.
As long as I have 2 good hands and legs,I'm abled bodied to work.

Here's one I can attest to, when 'dining' at a fastfood restaurant/snackshop, (my hand in the air), a homeless(?)panhandler WITH A CELL PHONE!!   

Others who wrote DID say they did it to be their feel good moment..(didn't say you did)....I am more WATCHFUL of the money I EARN, so I don't hand mine out 'willy-nilly' and maybe ask their circumstance to weed out the leeches..If you hand money out like that, would you like some land in Florida site unseen?..there's the point..

Yes, there are those who are in dire need, but a word to the wise, ask...I don't give the thought any power by thinking what I would do, but I am resourceful.
As long as I have 2 good hands and legs,I'm abled bodied to work.

Here's one I can attest to, when 'dining' at a fastfood restaurant/snackshop, (my hand in the air), a homeless(?)panhandler WITH A CELL PHONE!! 


Who says I don't watch our money? Obviously I have to, considering Rice has to support the boy and I on a student's stipend. But if I have change in my pocket (and know that I don't need it except to feed my kid's mania for putting change in the piggy bank), then why should I begrudge the person asking?

Others who wrote DID say they did it to be their feel good moment..(didn't say you did)....I am more WATCHFUL of the money I EARN, so I don't hand mine out 'willy-nilly' and maybe ask their circumstance to weed out the leeches..If you hand money out like that, would you like some land in Florida site unseen?..there's the point..

Yes, there are those who are in dire need, but a word to the wise, ask...I don't give the thought any power by thinking what I would do, but I am resourceful.
As long as I have 2 good hands and legs,I'm abled bodied to work.

Here's one I can attest to, when 'dining' at a fastfood restaurant/snackshop, (my hand in the air), a homeless(?)panhandler WITH A CELL PHONE!! 


If you are implying that I said I do it to get Brownie points from whomever...(as if I need to impress ANYBODY) then you read me wrong.  I said I feel good in helping others.

You know what?  If you think it's so great to be homeless and that everybody is scamming and making more money then people that work, why haven't you quit your job and started panhandling yourself?  If it's that easy?

Nevermind, I think I am done with this thread.  I had hoped to make people see that we need to take care of one another, but maybe that was naive of me and ultruistic.  You keep your money.  Sounds like you need it, I'm sure it will make you very happy.

If you are implying that I said I do it to get Brownie points from whomever...(as if I need to impress ANYBODY) then you read me wrong.  I said I feel good in helping others.

You know what?  If you think it's so great to be homeless and that everybody is scamming and making more money then people that work, why haven't you quit your job and started panhandling yourself?  If it's that easy?

Nevermind, I think I am done with this thread.  I had hoped to make people see that we need to take care of one another, but maybe that was naive of me and ultruistic.  You keep your money.  Sounds like you need it, I'm sure it will make you very happy.


I don't think the 'ANYBODY'  covered you as I complimented you on finding good ideas to assist with your time..i.e. to ask the grocer to save the food for the shelter or  whoever..

Someone earlier mentioned giving made them feel good and that may be rationalized to being helped when they leave the planet.

I don't think EVERYONE is scamming but I do know a scam when I hear one. It's usually-money for gas...who would leave home with 1/8 tank and figure they'd leave their car?
Also a man on the street wanted to make his money scamming people with an old magic trick(which I saw coming)....I turned the table on him and he ran off...I just don't like liars, cheats and street thieves...I wdo watch my money...First rule in having any!

Give when it moves you but compared to the beggars online as well, I fight to expose them..like the so many who have been busted asking for money for their sick kid online.

But back to the streets, whether it's homeless or the 'eco-fraud' Sierra Club..I think before my hand goes in my pocket.. and as I too end this posting, as it has been chewed over,...
I lhave been blessed as well and learned when I have something others don't: No matter what we each have, we all can give one of : THE 3 T's... TIME, TALENT , or TREASURE.

Whoa1 Are you saying 'The Government is RESPONSIBLE, that Mary didn't get to go to a good school, get an education how to take care of herself through life, bob should get help because he loved drinking soooo much he losthis job, a woman who 'loaded up' in the kid department without caution-whether hubby would run out on her or die, should be given help regularly...I'D LOVE TO LIVE IN THAT COUNTRY THAT WOULD DO THAT FOR ME!!


Well, I guess you haven't read the Constitution. Right in the beginning it does say that government of the U.S. SHOULD (and I quote) "PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE" and in my book that means making sure that people don't have to live on the streets and they don't have to make a choice between food and heat. What really bothers me is the fact that there are many people in the country who work sometimes 3 jobs and still live in poverty. Would you call them lazy? I wouldn't. I think they work damn hard and I think it is a travesty that these people who work their butts off and barely can make ends meet. Why is that? Because it took over 30 years for Congress to raise the minimum wage-which is still NOT a livable wage. And now fuel prices are totally obscene and it is raising the cost of EVERYTHING-including food and people's wages are NOT increasing with the cost. So, where does that leave people? You may want to check this out:  http://www.sanders.senate.gov/qa/meetingqs.cfm  These are REAL people telling their stories. And why are they in this position-because of the "free market". All these corporations taking jobs to China and India for the cheap labor-and most of the jobs that are left here are basically flipping burgers at McDonald's. And people wonder why unemployment and homelessness is on the rise. And THAT I do blame on the government.



Cat

As stated in another post: when/if I go to Wal-Mart,K-Mart, Target etc, and the merchandise is made in China, I leave itin a basket up front and explain to the manager, I can't/won't shop here with all this China merchandise...if enough people do it, they'll get the message. 

They have to feelit where it hurts ...in the pocketbook.

As stated in another post: when/if I go to Wal-Mart,K-Mart, Target etc, and the merchandise is made in China, I leave itin a basket up front and explain to the manager, I can't/won't shop here with all this China merchandise...if enough people do it, they'll get the message. 

They have to feelit where it hurts ...in the pocketbook.

U could check the bottom of the box B4U put the product in the basket...

Oh, that would defeat the purpose of the protest! 

Why stop with a basket?  Get three shopping carts filled with Made-in-China crapola and then ask to see the manager.  You'll make two--maybe three--73-year-old women work unpaid overtime putting all that junk back on the shelves after closing!

Very clever!
:D

Giving sometimes is more about the giver than the taker. I don't know but for me everytime i had some change i could spare i would and i don't dwell on if they really need it or not so i guess yes i do it because it makes me feel better but also because i genuinely think that giving is the answer and it can be money or just a smile,a word of encouragement or just listening. Whatever i can spare at the time i give and that can be enough.

U could check the bottom of the box B4U put the product in the basket...

Oh, that would defeat the purpose of the protest! 

Why stop with a basket?  Get three shopping carts filled with Made-in-China crapola and then ask to see the manager.  You'll make two--maybe three--73-year-old women work unpaid overtime putting all that junk back on the shelves after closing!

Very clever!
:D



It gives a PAID worker something to do if they have to restock...PLUS gets your message to the management because if everyone is busy restoocking 3 baskets each, they can't load product can they?


They might even have to HIRE MORE HELP!

I think it's bright idea at that level. You think if you just called the WAL-MART office, they'll say 'we hear you'?

It gives a PAID worker something to do if they have to restock...PLUS gets your message to the management because if everyone is busy restoocking 3 baskets each, they can't load product can they?


They might even have to HIRE MORE HELP!

I think it's bright idea at that level. You think if you just called the WAL-MART office, they'll say 'we hear you'?




Wouldn't it just be easier to not shop at Walmart? ???

It gives a PAID worker something to do if they have to restock...PLUS gets your message to the management because if everyone is busy restoocking 3 baskets each, they can't load product can they?


They might even have to HIRE MORE HELP!

I think it's bright idea at that level. You think if you just called the WAL-MART office, they'll say 'we hear you'?



;D

Wal-Mart is notorious for coercing employees to work overtime off the clock.

;D

Wal-Mart is notorious for coercing employees to work overtime off the clock.


I remember those reports, didn't know if they were challenged on it.

Not going to WAL-mart may be diffucult as it is a mega store or there may be American/other? made products...

We were just addressing the China made overflow of products(Target, Big Lots,KMart too).

I remember those reports, didn't know if they were challenged on it.

Not going to WAL-mart may be diffucult as it is a mega store or there may be American/other? made products...

We were just addressing the China made overflow of products(Target, Big Lots,KMart too).


I know when BS actually stands for Big Lots!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/03/coolsquare.gif

http://joshreads.com/images/08/02/i080202woi.png

I remember those reports, didn't know if they were challenged on it.

Not going to WAL-mart may be diffucult as it is a mega store or there may be American/other? made products...

We were just addressing the China made overflow of products(Target, Big Lots,KMart too).


Can any American worker read this and still give them their money??

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/20/national/main533818.shtml

www.courttv.com/news/2007/0629/walmart_dead_peasant_ctv.html

Can any American worker read this and still give them their money??

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/20/national/main533818.shtml

www.courttv.com/news/2007/0629/walmart_dead_peasant_ctv.html

Positively diabolical!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/firedevil.gif

Can any American worker read this and still give them their money??

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/20/national/main533818.shtml

www.courttv.com/news/2007/0629/walmart_dead_peasant_ctv.html


Thanks for the back-up...

Who knows how much else is happenning out there.

Thanks for the back-up...

Who knows how much else is happenning out there.

They successfully lied to us about 9/11, the 2000 elections, the 2004 elections, Hurricane Katrina, and the occupation of Iraq.  Problems are mounting, viruses in the system, their corrupt ideology exposed, and now excuses are thinner and the questions tougher!  But they are not going to sweat it.  We're all going to eachother's palaces to party after the Obama Inaguration!  Maybe we'd better throw the party as a New Years party because some guests may need to exit the country before 1/20!
;D

They successfully lied to us about 9/11, the 2000 elections, the 2004 elections, Hurricane Katrina, and the occupation of Iraq.  Problems are mounting, viruses in the system, their corrupt ideology exposed, and now excuses are thinner and the questions tougher!  But they are not going to sweat it.  We're all going to eachother's palaces to party after the Obama Inaguration!  Maybe we'd better throw the party as a New Years party because some guests may need to exit the country before 1/20!
;D

...Clean the house! How about them not checking the portable trailers for formaldehyde(?)...

If your throwing a party for Obama have your pockets wide open for the taxes to pay!

Mark these words....for 09! It's in the crystal ball.

...Clean the house! How about them not checking the portable trailers for formaldehyde(?)...

If your throwing a party for Obama have your pockets wide open for the taxes to pay!

Mark these words....for 09! It's in the crystal ball.




At this point the national debt is going to rise to 9 trillion dollars and it'll cost you $500 more a month just to keep up with the interest! 

That's what you get for not keeping the Chinese and the Indians down on the farm like the British used to do.  Sorry to be vulgar about it!  And no more of this middle class crap!  There's
THE RULING FAMILY

a small, corrupt political class of commoner wheler-deelers.

THE PEASANTRY/THE FACTORY WORKERS

Let everybody be consigned to agrarian labor.  Let them not learn numbers and philosophy so that they may bow unquestioningly to the THE RULING FAMILY. 

Just once I'd like to narrate one of those brokeradge house commercials: 
You think you got a stake in the future?
You don't got d*ck!
:-X

At this point the national debt is going to rise to 9 trillion dollars and it'll cost you $500 more a month just to keep up with the interest! 

That's what you get for not keeping the Chinese and the Indians down on the farm like the British used to do.  Sorry to be vulgar about it!  And no more of this middle class crap!  There's
THE RULING FAMILY

a small, corrupt political class of commoner wheler-deelers.

THE PEASANTRY/THE FACTORY WORKERS

Let everybody be consigned to agrarian labor.  Let them not learn numbers and philosophy so that they may bow unquestioningly to the THE RULING FAMILY. 

Just once I'd like to narrate one of those brokeradge house commercials: 
You think you got a stake in the future?
You don't got d*ck!
:-X



Someone out there has the greatest idea for the next car that doesn't use gas and boy will they be BIG TIME! 

Someone out there has the greatest idea for the next car that doesn't use gas and boy will they be BIG TIME! 




http://www.arbogawebb.se/hn/bilder/trampbilsuthyrning1_stor.jpg

http://www.arbogawebb.se/hn/bilder/trampbilsuthyrning1_stor.jpg


Wait until the first day it hits 20 degrees or a rainstorm comes through..someone will need a rubber suit.

Wait until the first day it hits 20 degrees or a rainstorm comes through..someone will need a rubber suit.



Then of course there are those northern winters. 

http://michianabiketowork.org/images/misc/general/bikeSnow.jpg

Then of course there are those northern winters. 

http://michianabiketowork.org/images/misc/general/bikeSnow.jpg



Hmmm...Someone could ride a bike in winter but don't think Maw and Paw could make it to the minimart...but if it caught on, the price of 'rustolium' will go up as the bikes slowly corrode.