I dont know what it is called or if it is anything different for other religions but what are your views on this?

I think parents have a right to do this but really they should wait until the child is old enough to decide for themselves if they want to do this! (Why take that right from them just cause the parants want it done??)

Doesnt seem fair doing it right @ birth........

The parents do have the right, doesn't mean the child has to adhere to the religion into which he/she was baptized when becoming an adult. The right is never taken away from the person to switch religions(well not in the USA).  People who have been baptized as children, or even as adults, change religions everyday. 

Some religions believe that a person has to be baptized in order for them to enter Heaven. Back in the dark ages when it was a common occurrence for children not to survive their first year, this was a real concern to parents. So they would have their children baptized as soon as possible.  Now, many parents have their children baptized as babies out of tradition. Right or wrong is not for any of us to say. If a parents believes that is what should be done, than so be it-as long as it doesn't hurt the child which sprinkling water on them IMO does not.

It does make it more sincere if a person can chose for themselves. Most religions have some sort of "welcoming" ritual-Catholic/Episcopal: Confirmation; Jewish: Bar/Bat mitzvahs, etc. etc. Most of these rituals take place when a child is around 13. At that age, do you think that a kid would say to his/her parents, "I really don't believe what the church is teaching and I don't want to go through with this." Personally, I think these rituals should take place after someone is an adult and can really understand what it means to be Catholic, Jewish or whatever.

As for me, I was baptized in the Episcopal Church at the age of 10 and confirmed at the age of 13. Yeah, I told everyone that I chose to do that but it was really my mother who pushed me to do it-which made my Jewish father very angry-not with me but with my mother.



Cat 

As for me, I was baptized in the Episcopal Church at the age of 10 and confirmed at the age of 13. Yeah, I told everyone that I chose to do that but it was really my mother who pushed me to do it-which made my Jewish father very angry-not with me but with my mother.



Cat 


I didn't know you were indoctrinated Episcopal!  They tried to make one out of me, too, but it didn't stick in both of our cases  :)

I didn't know you were indoctrinated Episcopal!  They tried to make one out of me, too, but it didn't stick in both of our cases  :)



It took me many years before I "saw the light".  ;)



Cat

It doesn't hurt anyone to have a child baptized at birth so I don't see why it is wrong.  Like Cat said, when they get old enough they can still make their own decision, it isn't like they are forced to stay that religion.

Personally, I had my daughter dedicated at birth but she didn't get baptized until she was 10, when she made the decision herself. 

Some religions believe that a person has to be baptized in order for them to enter Heaven

That's the way I have always heard it

When I was born, my mother wanted me to be baptised in the same church as my brother, but since we no longer lived in that district, they turned us away, so to this day, I have never been baptised.  Often, I joke that when I die, I'm going straight to hell lol

Apparently though (and I don't know if this is true or not) if I ever were to get married, I'd have to be baptised

That's the way I have always heard it

When I was born, my mother wanted me to be baptised in the same church as my brother, but since we no longer lived in that district, they turned us away, so to this day, I have never been baptised.  Often, I joke that when I die, I'm going straight to hell lol

Apparently though (and I don't know if this is true or not) if I ever were to get married, I'd have to be baptised



It depends on what church you want to get married in. Some churches require that you be a member of that church/faith, others could care less.



Cat

Baptism is a way to show your faith.  I decided to be baptized once in a swimming pool with some other Christians. After everyone was done we all jumped in the pool cowabunga!   Yes I went to some Ev free fellowship churches in the past.  A baby isn't old enough to make a decision.  

  

Uh...yeah...if you're faith practices baptism.  The majority of baptism-practicing denominations follow the infant baptism tradition; however, there is a sizable minority following "believer's baptism," in which case a person is not baptized until adolescence or adulthood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Believer's_baptism

Catwoman, there's something comical about one who's been baptised becoming Wiccan... think about your religion and the visual parallel baptism has to dunking.

"Hey, this isn't torture: we're just baptising this one a few extra times for good measure!"

Waterboarding infants: where do I sign up?  ;D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On a more serious note, I find interesting the wording of Bible on baptism - I'll start with one of the more oft quoted and used passages re: baptism:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"(Mark 16:16 - KJV)

Two key observations: one, there is no requirement of order to be saved, only an "and" clause - i.e., you must believe and be baptised, but it doesn't say the belief must come first. Two, not being baptised is not a ticket to Hell: only non-belief is (or, more aptly, not accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is). Another note: I wonder if the word "then" is missing or got translated out of this passage over time: it would make a pretty damned big difference it that is the case.

Similarly, in John 3:5:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Uh, so you have to be born underwater? Moving on...

in Matthew 3:6 (again from the KJV - bolding added by me):

"and were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they acknowledged their sins.

Aha! So acknowledging sin is pertinent for baptism... so, how can babies do that?

Matthew 3:13 - "Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him."

Sounds like Jesus made the decision to be baptized... something babies can't do.

From my most basic of searching about baptism, it seems many different religions have sprung up just based on the varying views of baptism. There is ambiguity in the Bible (surprised? I know I am!), but istm if you wanted to make sure your kids are going to heaven, that letting them get baptised by their choice (and possibly giving birth to them underwater) would be the *surest* way to do so - except that Mark 16:16 already says baptism is not a requirement.

Boiling all the contradictions away, as an atheist I find baptism of infants a completely meaningless and harmless act. If I were a Christian who had a kid, I'd probably let my kid decide when or if to be baptised - that seems more in line with the teaching of the Bible.

Ant

Catwoman, there's something comical about one who's been baptised becoming Wiccan... think about your religion and the visual parallel baptism has to dunking.



Ant



I thought you knew that I am a "Born-Again Pagan".  :D ;D ;D ;D



Cat

I thought you knew that I am a "Born-Again Pagan".  :D ;D ;D ;D



Cat


Oooh! How evil of you! Even I skipped the "all babies are atheists (or pagan)" argument.  ;)

Ant

I was baptized, but I converted to atheism.  It doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Granted, I agree with Pat Condell that religion is basically used as a form of brainwashing on children.  I just escaped my brainwashing.

It doesn't hurt anyone to have a child baptized at birth so I don't see why it is wrong.  Like Cat said, when they get old enough they can still make their own decision, it isn't like they are forced to stay that religion.

Personally, I had my daughter dedicated at birth but she didn't get baptized until she was 10, when she made the decision herself. 


Ten is still kind young.  I don't think anyone can really make an informed decision until adulthood, although they should be able to take part in all aspects, including the sacraments.

Ten is still kind young.  I don't think anyone can really make an informed decision until adulthood, although they should be able to take part in all aspects, including the sacraments.


Well, if she chooses differently later on, that is her right.  It was her idea to be baptized when she was.

I was almost 4 when I was baptised.  As I recall I was totally psyched.  My parents were so happy.  The priest kind of baptised the Barbie doll Mom couldn't pry out of my hand.  Needless to say I'm now a secular humanist.  I think if I wasn't baptised I probably wouldn't have needed to find my own way.

I was born and raised Catholic,so I was baptized as an infant,my husband is not catholic so when are son was born he wasn't sure if he was going to raise him Catholic. 2 years later our daughter was born and my dad wanted to know what we were going to do,so we had them baptised at the same time(along with one of my cousins kids)
Raised Catholic we were always taught about orignal sin and not getting into heaven if your not baptised. I'm not sure how true this is,but I think your better off getting baptised. Also when your baptised you get Godparents who are suppose to answer the questions of faith for you,they are suppose to be responsible for your religious upbringing.

I was born and raised Catholic,so I was baptized as an infant,my husband is not catholic so when are son was born he wasn't sure if he was going to raise him Catholic. 2 years later our daughter was born and my dad wanted to know what we were going to do,so we had them baptised at the same time(along with one of my cousins kids)
Raised Catholic we were always taught about orignal sin and not getting into heaven if your not baptised. I'm not sure how true this is,but I think your better off getting baptised. Also when your baptised you get Godparents who are suppose to answer the questions of faith for you,they are suppose to be responsible for your religious upbringing.


Even if you are baptised but you don't do right by others, you might not get into heaven all the same.  If you show God you're really sorry and perform enough penance, you might still qualify no matter what you've done.  The only way to damn yourself for sure is to repudiate the Church.  Then you fry!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/saeek2.gif

If you show God you're really sorry and perform enough penance, you might still qualify no matter what you've done.


"What's up with that penance stuff anyways?  I mean, where's it say that?"
  - Some Dude Named Luther :)

At least Christianity had its Reformation, and after centuries of bloodshed, even the Irish aren't doing more than the occasional bar fight over the issue.  That younger monotheistic faith?  Not so much.  *sigh*

At our church we dedicate our children..and then when they are older...they decide if/when they would like to get water baptized.

My parents are Roman Catholic and I was baptized as an infant, and even though I no longer am a practicing Catholic I really have no problem with that. I really don't think baptism is that big of a deal.

Now circumcision is another matter altogether. Again that was another ritual that was performed when I was an infant and thankfully I don't remember it but then again, I kind of wish I could have had some say so in it.  I mean, it would have been kind of nice if the church would have left it up to me to decide whether or not I should allow them to REMOVE PART OF MY PENIS when I was about, say, 18 or 19 years old.  :o :o :o

My parents are Roman Catholic and I was baptized as an infant, and even though I no longer am a practicing Catholic I really have no problem with that. I really don't think baptism is that big of a deal.

Now circumcision is another matter altogether. Again that was another ritual that was performed when I was an infant and thankfully I don't remember it but then again, I kind of wish I could have had some say so in it.  I mean, it would have been kind of nice if the church would have left it up to me to decide whether or not I should allow them to REMOVE PART OF MY PENIS when I was about, say, 18 or 19 years old.  :o :o :o





You are right that that is another matter. In the Jewish tradition, that Bris is supposed to be preformed on the 8th day. The ritual is also a naming ceremony. There are some studies that say that circumcision has medical benefits while other studies say that it does more harm. Who knows if it is good or not. But Jewish males have had it done since the beginning of time (well, almost). 



Cat

Now circumcision is another matter altogether. Again that was another ritual that was performed when I was an infant and thankfully I don't remember it but then again, I kind of wish I could have had some say so in it.  I mean, it would have been kind of nice if the church would have left it up to me to decide whether or not I should allow them to REMOVE PART OF MY PENIS when I was about, say, 18 or 19 years old.  :o :o :o


I wasn't baptized but I did get the snip-snip... not for religious reasons or even my own medical reasons: a few years before I was born one of my dad's uncles had to be circumsized in his late 50s. Apparently things went pretty badly for him so that weighed heavily into my parents' decision.

Even if I wasn't circumsized, I don't think I could willingly let someone take a scalpel to my penis.

Ant

My parents are Roman Catholic and I was baptized as an infant, and even though I no longer am a practicing Catholic I really have no problem with that. I really don't think baptism is that big of a deal.

Now circumcision is another matter altogether. Again that was another ritual that was performed when I was an infant and thankfully I don't remember it but then again, I kind of wish I could have had some say so in it.  I mean, it would have been kind of nice if the church would have left it up to me to decide whether or not I should allow them to REMOVE PART OF MY PENIS when I was about, say, 18 or 19 years old.  :o :o :o



The hospital asked us if we wanted Timmy done..I was half awake so Tim told them no,I asked him later why he said no,he said because he wasn't,I started laughing and told him yes you are. Years later my husband says he regrets that decision,Timmy is almost 19 and other than when he was little and had to show him how to properly clean that area,we have never discussed it.

Ah, circumcision.  In the old days it was necessary, especially in semitic lands.  If you're crossing the desert in a tunic, you'll be grateful for a clear head, if ya know what I mean.  In modern times the procedure is not really necessary.  As Ninny points out, the young man just needs to be instructed in proper hygiene--which he should be anyway.

However, I am a circumcised gentile and I'd want the same thing for my son.

I've never seen (up close and personal) an UNcircumcized one. Methinks it would scare me. :P

I've never seen (up close and personal) an UNcircumcized one.

Me neither!

Oh, I mean, I've never seen a circumsized one.  I mean I've never seen an uncircumsized one either.  Niether, I've never seen either, up close and personal...you know....
:-\\

Me neither!
:-\\



you look so disappointed, Max. ;) ;D

I've never seen (up close and personal) an UNcircumcized one. Methinks it would scare me. :P


Whereas I think the opposite. 

I've never seen (up close and personal) an UNcircumcized one. Methinks it would scare me. :P


We need to have a "Funniest Messageboard Quotes of the Year" thread: I spent two minutes cleaning up my drink from my monitor and keyboard after reading that! Karma!


Whereas I think the opposite. 


You two women owe me a roll of paper towels!  ;D

Ant

We need to have a "Funniest Messageboard Quotes of the Year" thread: I spent two minutes cleaning up my drink from my monitor and keyboard after reading that! Karma!

You two women owe me a roll of paper towels!  ;D

Ant


haahaha...thanks!! right back at ya. Oh, btw I googled it and saw one (not up close and personal...but still). :-\\

I've never seen (up close and personal) an UNcircumcized one. Methinks it would scare me. :P



Whereas I think the opposite. 


They all look and feel the same in the dark.

They all look and feel the same in the dark.



but.....what if you are face to face with it? :-[ :D

but.....what if you are face to face with it? :-[ :D

Then I guess it depends on how dark it is, don't it?
:D

They all look and feel the same in the dark.


I like the lights on though!  Actually I suppose they probably do feel the same.  :-\\  It's one part of 'the American experience' I won't be trying!

We need to have a "Funniest Messageboard Quotes of the Year" thread: I spent two minutes cleaning up my drink from my monitor and keyboard after reading that! Karma!

You two women owe me a roll of paper towels!  ;D

Ant



Well, not "Funniest Messageboard Quotes of the Year" but how about this?

  http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=12003.0



Cat

Q: Why don't they circumcise baby cowboys?

A: So, when they grow up, they have a place to stick their chewing tobacco while they're eating.

I like the lights on though!  Actually I suppose they probably do feel the same.  :-\\  It's one part of 'the American experience' I won't be trying!


I've tried both. No difference. ;)

I'll shut up now.



Q: Why don't they circumcise baby cowboys?

A: So, when they grow up, they have a place to stick their chewing tobacco while they're eating.


BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :D

I've tried both. No difference. ;)

I'll shut up now.



I was wondering when you felt you'd shared enough!
;)

Q: Why don't they circumcise baby cowboys?

A: So, when they grow up, they have a place to stick their chewing tobacco while they're eating.


Don't quit your day job AL-B. ::)

Don't quit your day job AL-B. ::)


Thank ya verra much!  8)

Q: Why don't they circumcise baby cowboys?

A: So, when they grow up, they have a place to stick their chewing tobacco while they're eating.

Very poor, Al, very poor!
;D

Very poor, Al, very poor!
;D


Awww...come on! Where's the love?!?  :-\\


;D

Awww...come on! Where's the love?!?  :-\\


;D


Weeeeellll, OK then.  Let's see what we can do 4ya!

So last night they had this ex-Krispy Kreme counterman up on the tube and one of his big jokes was:
"Bow Wow?
When have you ever heard a dog say 'Bow-Wow'?"

So those being the standards nowadays, I think I can get you onto Comedy Central....but you you'll have to do certain kinds of favors for these big ugly gross guys first.

Non-negotiable.  Sorry, kid, best I could do!
:D

I've tried both. No difference. ;)

I'll shut up now.




I might be taking it too far...but out of curiosity....how different is oral with an uncircumcised one? :-X ;D

Weeeeellll, OK then.  Let's see what we can do 4ya!

So last night they had this ex-Krispy Kreme counterman up on the tube and one of his big jokes was:
"Bow Wow?
When have you ever heard a dog say 'Bow-Wow'?"

So those being the standards nowadays, I think I can get you onto Comedy Central....but you you'll have to do certain kinds of favors for these big ugly gross guys first.

Non-negotiable.  Sorry, kid, best I could do!
:D


Gee, now I feel like Fozzie Bear and everyone is hurling tomatoes at me.  ::)

Gee, now I feel like Fozzie Bear and everyone is hurling tomatoes at me.  ::)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h15xIoVwWw

Gee, now I feel like Fozzie Bear and everyone is hurling tomatoes at me.   ::)


awww...

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5404/wakawakafonzieuu0.jpg

Gee, now I feel like Fozzie Bear and everyone is hurling tomatoes at me.   ::)

Ain't no tomatoes, son, just the big ugly gross guys! 

How that addresses the question at hand escapes me at moment....
:-\\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h15xIoVwWw


I knew these two old guys from work (one retired last fall) who totally reminded me of Statler and Waldorf when they were together.  ;D

Ain't no tomatoes, son, just the big ugly gross guys! 

How that addresses the question at hand escapes me at moment....
:-\\


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5O4TaXY2gE

I knew these two old guys from work (one retired last fall) who totally reminded me of Statler and Waldorf when they were together.  ;D


We have two as well dude. They're both pushing to retire, never do any work, just tell us about how great the old days were (8 hour minimum calls!!) and complain about everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5O4TaXY2gE

OK, that's obnoxious, guy!
>:(

I might be taking it too far...but out of curiosity....how different is oral with an uncircumcised one? :-X ;D


New acronym for ya, Erin: TitNP (take it to NP).  ;)

(I can't answer it either way  :D)

Ant

New acronym for ya, Erin: TitNP (take it to NP).  ;)

(I can't answer it either way  :D)

Ant

I don't know what it's supposed to stand for, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts what I'm thinking is worse!
8)

New acronym for ya, Erin: TitNP (take it to NP).  ;)

(I can't answer it either way  :D)

Ant


oh wowo...I was just lurking there earlier today! ;D

Oh, I mean, I've never seen a circumsized one.  I mean I've never seen an uncircumsized one either.  Niether, I've never seen either, up close and personal...you know....


Dude, WTF?  Your profile has you logged in as male, but you've never seen either?  Either Nurse Ratched brought a hand blender into your pediatric ward, or you really need to know that you won't go blind, y'know :)

OK, that's obnoxious, guy!
>:(


Nah, it was just me being self-deprecating.  ;)

I thought you knew that I am a "Born-Again Pagan".  :D ;D ;D ;D



Cat

"Born-Again Pagan"?  Ah... so that's what "BAP-tist" means ;)



You are right that that is another matter. In the Jewish tradition, that Bris is supposed to be preformed on the 8th day. The ritual is also a naming ceremony. There are some studies that say that circumcision has medical benefits while other studies say that it does more harm. Who knows if it is good or not. But Jewish males have had it done since the beginning of time (well, almost).
http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua/second_circumcision/jos05_02.html

:)

The parents do have the right, doesn't mean the child has to adhere to the religion into which he/she was baptized when becoming an adult. The right is never taken away from the person to switch religions(well not in the USA).  People who have been baptized as children, or even as adults, change religions everyday. 


I agree. It's no one's business.

I don't know what it's supposed to stand for, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts what I'm thinking is worse!
8)



He is talking about a place where you can find Poisoned Eros.  ;)



Cat

Ephesians 2: 8-9 says: "For by grace you are saved through faith.  Not of works, lest any man should boast."  Being baptized does not save you and send you to heaven, and at the same time you don't go to hell for not being baptized.  Baptism is a symbol of your faith when you profess Christ as your Savior.  In Acts 8, when Philip preaches to the Ethiopian eunuch and they saw water, the eunuch asked "What keeps me from being baptized?" and Philip said "If you believe with all your heart, you may be baptized."  The eunuch said "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and then Philip baptized him.  When someone professes their faith in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, they follow in baptism as an open statement of their faith.  The reason for full-immersion baptism is to symbolize (1) Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and (2) that person's profession of repentance, that they are "burying the old man" and will live their life in obedience to God. 
So....does it hurt to have an infant baptized?  No...but at the same time it does not offer them a protection or force them to follow that religion of the church they're baptized in.  Plus they can't be baptized by immersion.  However I don't think there is a "cut-off" age.  God can save children at a young age.  As long as they are old enough to be able to confess their belief and they truly seem to understand they can be baptized.  My little sister made a profession of faith and got baptized when she was 7, but then as she got older she realized she hadn't really understood and she was probably just full of emotions at the time.  She again made a profession and was baptized when she was 11.  However, even adults can confuse feeling emotions with feeling the work of the HOly Spirit.  Really it is up to the person being baptized whether or not they are ready.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 says: "For by grace you are saved through faith.  Not of works, lest any man should boast."  Being baptized does not save you and send you to heaven, and at the same time you don't go to hell for not being baptized.  Baptism is a symbol of your faith when you profess Christ as your Savior.  In Acts 8, when Philip preaches to the Ethiopian eunuch and they saw water, the eunuch asked "What keeps me from being baptized?" and Philip said "If you believe with all your heart, you may be baptized."  The eunuch said "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and then Philip baptized him. 


I'm more agnostic than anything else, but if I ever wound up in a foxhole with the Pope, I'd love to ask the guy about those kinds of verses, and how the Catholic church ever came up with the notion that infant baptism had any theological basis whatsoever.

(Apology in advance to Catholics if the RC Church has already changed its mind about that and the Protestants never bothered telling their kids about the change of heart.  It's not like the Protestant versions of Christianity had much interest in keeping track of what the RCs believed :)

I'm more agnostic than anything else, but if I ever wound up in a foxhole with the Pope, I'd love to ask the guy about those kinds of verses, and how the Catholic church ever came up with the notion that infant baptism had any theological basis whatsoever.




....and limbo, what sick puppy thought that up?

....and limbo, what sick puppy thought that up?


You gotta go back to Dante.  Some of these cats from the old days were real cool cats, like Virgil, and Plato, and Ptolemy.  Do they have to be damned because the Messiah manifested after their deaths?  Thus they cut a new plot in the etherial real estate and called it "limbo," which is like waiting in a chiropractor's waiting room forever and ever!  That's the best the church could do for the ancestors of Modern Human Thaught!
::)

....and limbo, what sick puppy thought that up?



2nd book of Maccabees mentions the word Purgatory I believe.  Of course if you're not into the Catholic Bible the 2nd book doesn't exist.

2nd book of Maccabees mentions the word Purgatory I believe.  Of course if you're not into the Catholic Bible the 2nd book doesn't exist.


Oh yeah, us Protestants always forget about the Apocrypha.  Thanks for the reminder.  I've still never read 'em, but I forgot just how long it took to figure out which texts were going to wind up as "canonical" and which ones got tossed by the wayside.  I'd always wondered how the Catholics came up with the doctrine myself, but back in the day, I never wondered enough to bother researching it.

2nd book of Maccabees mentions the word Purgatory I believe.  Of course if you're not into the Catholic Bible the 2nd book doesn't exist.




Don't even have a 1st Maccabees

Don't even have a 1st Maccabees


This is where a few of those far out Catholic ideals come from.  Martin Luther really had no sense of mysticism.

I don't think christening is right or wrong, I just think it's a social ritual like weddings and funerals that helps people live with a peaceful mind.

In my opinion, child baptism is not about faith but about belonging. I was baptised as a Methodist and, being only so many months old, had no idea why. This is in contrast to Jesus who got baptised by John The Baptist at approximately 30 years of age.