Yes we know it has made news, does anyone know the numbers on other religious sects of sexual abuse and their averages?

That's because I have heard,(rumor so far), Protestant religion has 10% occurances compared to the Catholic faith with 1% involved in it.
If I hear my sources are wrong, I will erase or concede this point.

Not to say evryone involved should be brought down/exposed..everyone keeps bringing up the priests whenever the topic comes up, most likely due to the media coverage..what about those others?

It's become a negative sterotype.  I grew up Catholic.  A Father figure growing up was a Priest, my Uncle is a Priest.  Neither of who would dream of sexually abusing anyone.  The fact that they have a vow of celibacy means some people think they have to hide any form of sexuality or pick someone who won't tell.  That is pure B.S. my friend (the Priest) has a thing for cute blonds like Cameron Diaz.  He said he made the vow, but he's not dead.

BTW, Karma. :)

I am also hearing something else that is never addressed:

If you compared religious organizations that have permitted marriage of the leaders to those who are celebate, there is no big or little difference between those who participated in straying i.e. committing unwarranted acts.

So it doesn't fly 'if they were allowed to marry' or have families...it doesn't matter...things happen to them all, married or not, without any big difference.

I am also hearing something else that is never addressed:

If you compared religious organizations that have permitted marriage of the leaders to those who are celibate, there is no big or little difference between those who participated in straying i.e. committing unwarranted acts.


The "cure all" Priest should be allowed to marry and this wouldn't happen bit is very overrated.  Priest go into this knowing they have to take the vow.  Whether they disobey that vow is based on personality, not the priesthood.  Funny though how the "cure all" doesn't work for Protestants much although you rarely hear about it.

All are religions are stupid. Not just Christianity.

All are religions are stupid. Not just Christianity.


That's a vastly untrue statement. I'd argue it right now, but my breakfast interests me more. ;D

Yes we know it has made news, does anyone know the numbers on other religious sects of sexual abuse and their averages?

That's because I have heard,(rumor so far), Protestant religion has 10% occurances compared to the Catholic faith with 1% involved in it.
If I hear my sources are wrong, I will erase or concede this point.

Not to say evryone involved should be brought down/exposed..everyone keeps bringing up the priests whenever the topic comes up, most likely due to the media coverage..what about those others?


I totally agree.  Look at the FLDS.  Fundamentalist Mormons seem particularly bad about sexual abuse.

In addition to this, Muslims are probably the worst about sexual abuse of any religion, because they treat women like shi*.  So I agree, we should focus more on the Islamic and Mormon abuses that are out there -- in addition to Catholics and Protestants that do this stuff.

Besides, the more dirt we find on organized religion, the easier it is to show that it's more about controlling and abusing people than much else.

That's a vastly untrue statement. I'd argue it right now, but my breakfast interests me more. ;D


For the most part, I'd actually agree with Zoso.  Religion is, more often than not, little more than Santa Claus for adults.  Thankfully, much of Western Europe and Scandinavia has evolved past religion.  We should follow suit, but we should also be wary of worshipping the state (which is essentially what the Chinese do).

All are religions are stupid. Not just Christianity.

If you're going to call all religions stupid, it might be a good idea to get the syntax right ;)

The reason religions come across as stupid to the non-religious is that they value faith and knowledge of their particular holy literature (and a fanatical dedication to the Pope!) way ahead of intelligence.

All are religions are stupid. Not just Christianity.



coming from the man who looks at Michael Jackson as a "god" ::)

If you're going to call all religions stupid, it might be a good idea to get the syntax right ;)

The reason religions come across as stupid to the non-religious is that they value faith and knowledge of their particular holy literature (and a fanatical dedication to the Pope!) way ahead of intelligence.

Hey, if you're dyslexic it doesn't mean you're dumb...it means you're bmud!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nixweiss.gif

The reason religions come across as stupid to the non-religious is that they value faith and knowledge of their particular holy literature (and a fanatical dedication to the Pope!) way ahead of intelligence.


Reason? As in singular? Surely you must have been pressed for time when you made the above post. . .

If the literature were sound, there would not be much of a problem in basing one's beliefs on it.

Ant

If the literature were sound, there would not be much of a problem in basing one's beliefs on it.


Depends on the literature.  The King James Version of Song of Solomon is pretty raunchy as far as pre-Renaissance romantic poetry goes.  There are also brilliant bits of poetry buried in the KJV translation of the book of Job. 

If you're after theology instead of literature, I'll point you to the New Testament, Christ's Sermon on the Mount, also known as the Beatitudes, constitute a pretty interesting set of ideals in any language.  No human society (whether it was based on religious or secular values) has managed to make those ideals work in the past 2000 years, even though many have tried. They still sound pretty cool on paper, though. 

Son of God or not, that JC guy was a hell of a philosopher.  Some of His self-professed followers, on the other hand...

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
    - Mahatma Gandhi

Yeah, that.

Reason? As in singular? Surely you must have been pressed for time when you made the above post. . .

:)

OK, pedant: one of the main reasons... surprise! And a fana.. hold on, I've done that gag already.


If the literature were sound, there would not be much of a problem in basing one's beliefs on it.

True - that's why intelligence isn't valued in religions that base their faith on dodgy literature.  With the possible exception of Judaism - most Jewish families I know are extremely academic.. but it has to be said that their Jewishness seems to have more to do with cultural heritage than any real belief.


... that JC guy was a hell of a philosopher.

Sure was.. who could forget: "'E's run up the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibule"?


"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
    - Mahatma Gandhi
Hell, yeah.

coming from the man who looks at Michael Jackson as a "god" ::)
I like the dude's music and respect him as a person for the good that he has done and because of the fact that he's remained a good person while the world turned against him. That doesn't mean I worship him as a god. There's a difference between admiration and worship. There's also a difference between Michael Jackson and God. Michael Jackson exists. So even if I did worship him, it'd still make me less crazy than those who worship a god that doesn't even exist. So ::).

Oh, and as for the syntax comment. I always find it amusing when people who don't have a solid argument get hung up on typos. It really has nothing to do with the argument. Because I made a typo and overlooked it doesn't mean I'm less intelligent than you or anyone else who's anal about spelling and grammar. At least I'm intelligent enough to figure out that God and Santa Claus are really the same guy.

I like the dude's music and respect him as a person for the good that he has done and because of the fact that he's remained a good person while the world turned against him. That doesn't mean I worship him as a god. There's a difference between admiration and worship. There's also a difference between Michael Jackson and God. Michael Jackson exists. So even if I did worship him, it'd still make me less crazy than those who worship a god that doesn't even exist. So ::).



that's a matter of opinion. I'm just pointing out that you are accusing others who happen to believe in God, of being crazy...because you claim that God doesn't exist....yet, you will put a sicko so high on a pedestal and have no qualms about that. Even if I wasn't already a Christian...I think that I would rather believe in something that I can't see...than believe in someone who "exists" who happens to be a nutjob. ::) Go figure.

that's a matter of opinion. I'm just pointing out that you are accusing others who happen to believe in God, of being crazy...because you claim that God doesn't exist....yet, you will put a sicko so high on a pedestal and have no qualms about that. Even if I wasn't already a Christian...I think that I would rather believe in something that I can't see...than believe in someone who "exists" who happens to be a nutjob. ::) Go figure.
Well that's your opinion. An opinion based on misinformation, but an opinion none the less. As I said, admiration and worship are two different things. I don't worship Michael Jackson, I just admire him.

Btw, you say would rather believe in God than a nutjob. What's the difference? Read the Old Testament and get back to me.

it all depends on what the media wants to report on...what will get the biggest reaciton and get them sales, ratings...

it's worth pointing out, but as far as reporting goes, nothing is ever fair.

Well that's your opinion. An opinion based on misinformation, but an opinion none the less. As I said, admiration and worship are two different things. I don't worship Michael Jackson, I just admire him.

Btw, you say would rather believe in God than a nutjob. What's the difference? Read the Old Testament and get back to me.



It's questionable whether or not you worship or admire MJ (going by some of your back posts)...it's a very fine line, I would have to say.


Last time I checked....wrath did not equal pedophilia. But then again....that's just MY opinion. ::)

Last time I checked....wrath did not equal pedophilia. But then again....that's just MY opinion. ::)
So killing off entire civilisations is not as "nutty" as being accused of a crime you were acquitted of?

Even if he did play with a kid's penis, surely you don't think that's worse than wiping out entire civilisations out of jealousy and encourage acts of genocide and torture amongst many other immoral things.

If I had a choice of being stoned to death (which God in the Bible encourages) and being masturbated by pop star, I choose the hand job.

Oh, and as for the syntax comment. I always find it amusing when people who don't have a solid argument get hung up on typos. It really has nothing to do with the argument.
I wasn't arguing... just pointing out the irony in making that kind of mistake in a statement calling someone else stupid.

As for where I stand in the whole God debate, I think this covers things (I know I plugged it in another thread, but hey.. I'm not proud)

Well that's your opinion. An opinion based on misinformation, but an opinion none the less. As I said, admiration and worship are two different things. I don't worship Michael Jackson, I just admire him.

Btw, you say would rather believe in God than a nutjob. What's the difference? Read the Old Testament and get back to me.


Not being horrible to both yourself and Erin but this Michael Jackson/God thing makes humourous reading.  ;D

As mentioned previously, I was brought up in religion and am inclined to agree with you, Zoso. There are two quotes that make me treat religion with caution:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions." - Karl Marx

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." - Voltaire

As for The Old Testament, there seemed to be an amazing hypocrisy about God being a God of Love yet found it easy to wipe out Jericho, Sodom and Gomorah, the world in a flood etc etc. I had this explained to me about a year ago (Jehovah's Witness understanding) and it does seem plausible in it's own logic . . .

In the Old Testament, Adam and Eve ate the fruit and they became imperfect people. This meant that the only way people had a chance of redemption was through God's perfect son Jesus Christ who would cancel that out and give salvation with his earthly death. The only way Jesus could be born was through a bloodline (going through Moses, David, Abraham, Noah, Jacob etc etc) and Satan the Devil was trying to disrupt that line. If he succeeded, Jesus wouldn't be able to come to the earth so God did these things not because he wanted to but because he had to.

If I had a choice of being stoned to death (which God in the Bible encourages) and being masturbated by pop star, I choose the hand job.


Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place...


:)

OK, pedant: one of the main reasons... surprise! And a fana.. hold on, I've done that gag already.
True - that's why intelligence isn't valued in religions that base their faith on dodgy literature. 


Most any literature of extreme age is going to have problems holding water today. It wasn't 450 years ago that phlogiston was a plausible scientific theory. It has since been proven false, but you won't find scientists today endlessly rationalizing it, unlike those who do so with much older and 'holier' pieces of literature.

Ant

So killing off entire civilisations is not as "nutty" as being accused of a crime you were acquitted of?

Even if he did play with a kid's penis, surely you don't think that's worse than wiping out entire civilisations out of jealousy and encourage acts of genocide and torture amongst many other immoral things.

If I had a choice of being stoned to death (which God in the Bible encourages) and being masturbated by pop star, I choose the hand job.



This is coming from a person who obviously has never given faith a chance, nor had a relationship with God, instead, chooses to relay stories of the Bible to someone that already knows them. I don't live my life by stories...I live it by choosing to have faith..and reaping the benefits from it. You are only taking what you have heard/read about the old testament God. If you gave a rat's arse you would bother looking at the many loving things that happen in the name of God. But....I'm sure there is no persuading you on that one.

And btw, the words: playing/penis/and little boy should NEVER be uttered together in one sentence. The light-heartedness of that topic that spews from your mouth is rather telling and alarming. ??? It's not really something to make light of, no matter how hard you are TRYING to make a point.

It's obvious that we will never agree, nor will I ever stop defending what I believe, and obviously you will never stop defending what you DO NOT believe....so, I guess we will leave it as that (unless you want to continue this for the hell of it). ;)

If I had a choice of being stoned to death (which God in the Bible encourages) and being masturbated by pop star, I choose the hand job.


I dunno.  That bit about every herb is given unto man... I'm the only person I know who hasn't indulged in the stuff, but if I had a choice between smoking myself to death on dank sticky bud that God himself imbued with THC and spending a night in bed with Michael Jackson... I think I'd take the lung cancer.

This is coming from a person who obviously has never given faith a chance, nor had a relationship with God

WRONG!

Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place...

Groan


Most any literature of extreme age is going to have problems holding water today. It wasn't 450 years ago that phlogiston was a plausible scientific theory. It has since been proven false, but you won't find scientists today endlessly rationalizing it, unlike those who do so with much older and 'holier' pieces of literature.

Ant

Funnily enough, I'm currently re-reading The Science of the Discworld and just gone past the bit where they mentioned phogiston (including the measurements that were taken which ended up disproving the idea).  It's definitely a series to recommend, though the "hard" science bits are really rather harder science than you'd normally get.

Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place...


Totally karma worthy.  ;D

k.

This is coming from a person who obviously has never given faith a chance, nor had a relationship with God, instead, chooses to relay stories of the Bible to someone that already knows them. I don't live my life by stories...I live it by choosing to have faith..and reaping the benefits from it. You are only taking what you have heard/read about the old testament God. If you gave a rat's arse you would bother looking at the many loving things that happen in the name of God. But....I'm sure there is no persuading you on that one.

I'm sure my viewpoint is quite different from Zoso's (I really can't stand MJ or his music), but the question I always have for the religious is...  How do you pick one?  I mean, you don't exactly have much evidence to work with in deciding one is more valid than another, so how did you choose Christianity?

This isn't meant as a slight or anything, I'm just asking a serious question, because I really have yet to understand how people select a religion.

I'm sure my viewpoint is quite different from Zoso's (I really can't stand MJ or his music), but the question I always have for the religious is...  How do you pick one?  I mean, you don't exactly have much evidence to work with in deciding one is more valid than another, so how did you choose Christianity?

This isn't meant as a slight or anything, I'm just asking a serious question, because I really have yet to understand how people select a religion.


It's a very serious question, Macphisto, and I approach religion with an agnostic view these days.

There is a saying that 'all roads lead to God' but if that was the case why have all these VERY different religions (how many different sub-religions are there in Christianity alone?) when only one will do? If Christianity is so faultless, why has it fragmented into many forms? Importantly, if Christianity is one with The Lord, why can't it agree with itself?

A lot of people don't choose their religion, they often adopt the beliefs of their parents/family.

I'm sure my viewpoint is quite different from Zoso's (I really can't stand MJ or his music), but the question I always have for the religious is...  How do you pick one?  I mean, you don't exactly have much evidence to work with in deciding one is more valid than another, so how did you choose Christianity?

This isn't meant as a slight or anything, I'm just asking a serious question, because I really have yet to understand how people select a religion.


Spoken like a true Secular Humanist.  How can you choose one religion (or better yet denomination of that religion) and shut every other form of faith or reasoning out?  In some ways this leads to a form of religious misunderstanding and intolerance that causes things like terrorism, discrimination based on a religion that supposedly believes in or doesn't.

I'm sure my viewpoint is quite different from Zoso's (I really can't stand MJ or his music), but the question I always have for the religious is...  How do you pick one?  I mean, you don't exactly have much evidence to work with in deciding one is more valid than another, so how did you choose Christianity?

This isn't meant as a slight or anything, I'm just asking a serious question, because I really have yet to understand how people select a religion.


It's a very valid question...and I have thought about it myself at times. I guess there are a few factors. I grew up in the Christian religion, I went to a private school for 6 years of my life. It's what has been familiar to me all of my life....and to me, it just seems right. Things seems to click and fall into place. Believe me, it's not like my life is hunky dory..just because I am a Christian and stuff. I have many issues that I deal with daily, and everyday is a struggle. It's not like it's magic, and everything falls into place.  I have never been one to condemn others religions, I will listen to what they have to say. I'm not saying that I will agree with it..or want to convert to it...but I WILL listen. I have taken theology/philosophy classes in college, and I've learned a lot about other religions. They are very interesting, some make some great points, I agree with areas of this one and that one, but it doesn't mean that I am going to convert to that religion.

What I am trying to say is this...I have had doubts about certain doctrines/beliefs at times in my life. Sometimes it's hard to go by faith and believe in something that you cannot physically see...but I know, for my life, it's what is right. It's a feeling inside that I know that this is the path for me. It might not be for everyone, and I would never force my beliefs down someone's throat (although I am always open to discuss it and what I believe with anyone who would be curious). That's just me. :)

I'm sure my viewpoint is quite different from Zoso's (I really can't stand MJ or his music), but the question I always have for the religious is...  How do you pick one?  I mean, you don't exactly have much evidence to work with in deciding one is more valid than another, so how did you choose Christianity?

This isn't meant as a slight or anything, I'm just asking a serious question, because I really have yet to understand how people select a religion.
Most people don't pick a religion. They are born in to it. I have two big problems with that. One is it doesn't give people a chance to develop their own beliefs. They are brainwashed this garbage from a very young age. The other reason is I just don't buy people having a strong faith in Jesus Christ because the reason they have strong faith in Jesus is because they just happened to be born in a predominantly Christian country. They could have just as easily been born in Egypt or something and have a strong belief in Mohammed. Again, most people not all. Some change their religion later in life despite what they were raised as.

Oh, and can we drop MJ? I don't even know how he comes into this discussion. He has no bearing on my religious beliefs. I just like his music. He was brought into this discussion because someone couldn't argue against me with something substantial so they brought up something completely irrelevant that they thought they could hold against me. It's ridiculous and it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Most people don't pick a religion. They are born in to it. Which is why I don't buy people having a strong faith in Jesus Christ because the could have just as easily been born in Egypt or something and have a strong belief in Mohammed. 



But people are free to choose whatever religion they want, when they get older. I know a lot of people that have kept with Christianity...and some that have ventured off to other religions or none. It's all a matter of choice and what you want to believe in.

But people are free to choose whatever religion they want, when they get older. I know a lot of people that have kept with Christianity...and some that have ventured off to other religions or none. It's all a matter of choice and what you want to believe in.
That's not the case for most people. Most people are far from free or able to make their own choice when it comes to religion. I've amended my post because I realised I had a bit more to say. But yeh, some choose their own way later in life (life myself) but a lot stick with what they were raised as because they know nothing else or the beliefs they were raised to believe are so strong in them they can't change.

That's not the case for most people. Most people are far from free or able to make their own choice when it comes to religion. I've amended my post because I realised I had a bit more to say. But yeh, some choose their own way later in life (life myself) but a lot stick with what they were raised as because they know nothing else or the beliefs they were raised to believe are so strong in them they can't change.


How so? Just because it is what they were taught when they were young? I mean yes..they do have certain things ingrained within them...but who is to say that they have to keep with that? I mean, most adults that I know have the right and ability to move on from things that they aren't concerned with any longer. Are you talking about feeling guilty throughout life because of not practicing things that you've been taught since you were young? Or something else?

Oh, and can we drop MJ? I don't even know how he comes into this discussion. He has no bearing on my religious beliefs. I just like his music. He was brought into this discussion because someone couldn't argue against me with something substantial so they brought up something completely irrelevant that they thought they could hold against me. It's ridiculous and it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.


Oh, I strongly disagree. I have and always will hold my own, and for you to say that I can't argue against you and make valid points is very wrong indeed. I am not afraid to state what I believe, nor illustrate my arguements...and yes, IMO bringing up MJ was relevant because in your prior posts on the boards...you put him to a higher standard than most people do with another human being...so I was just comparing it to the realms of religion. If it bothers you..I won't mention MJ any longer. I didn't know it offended you so.

That's not the case for most people. Most people are far from free or able to make their own choice when it comes to religion. I've amended my post because I realised I had a bit more to say. But yeh, some choose their own way later in life (life myself) but a lot stick with what they were raised as because they know nothing else or the beliefs they were raised to believe are so strong in them they can't change.


Actually for a majority of religions there is an adult initiation so that a person is of a mature enough state of mind to be able to make a decision.  In this day in age it has less and less to do with how you were raised.  Information on other religions is readily available to anyone who can read.  People evangelicalize more.  It's not like it was 50 or 100 years ago.

It's a very valid question...and I have thought about it myself at times. I guess there are a few factors. I grew up in the Christian religion, I went to a private school for 6 years of my life. It's what has been familiar to me all of my life....and to me, it just seems right. Things seems to click and fall into place. Believe me, it's not like my life is hunky dory..just because I am a Christian and stuff. I have many issues that I deal with daily, and everyday is a struggle. It's not like it's magic, and everything falls into place.  I have never been one to condemn others religions, I will listen to what they have to say. I'm not saying that I will agree with it..or want to convert to it...but I WILL listen. I have taken theology/philosophy classes in college, and I've learned a lot about other religions. They are very interesting, some make some great points, I agree with areas of this one and that one, but it doesn't mean that I am going to convert to that religion.

What I am trying to say is this...I have had doubts about certain doctrines/beliefs at times in my life. Sometimes it's hard to go by faith and believe in something that you cannot physically see...but I know, for my life, it's what is right. It's a feeling inside that I know that this is the path for me. It might not be for everyone, and I would never force my beliefs down someone's throat (although I am always open to discuss it and what I believe with anyone who would be curious). That's just me. :)


Interesting...  I understand if the answer to my question probably involves struggles that are a little too private to share here.

I'm guessing that what you're getting at is that there is a certain "feeling" you have that Christianity is "true."  I've never felt that myself, but there are aspects of it that feel true.  If I had to a pick a religion, I'd probably pick Buddhism, but there are definitely similarities between this and Christianity.

But people are free to choose whatever religion they want, when they get older. I know a lot of people that have kept with Christianity...and some that have ventured off to other religions or none. It's all a matter of choice and what you want to believe in.


In America and the rest of the West, yes.  In much of the Islamic World, converting out of Islam can get you killed (like in Afghanistan).