This Summer, stay at home! Gas will be at $4 per gallon and nobody seems to be helping us out.

Political Leaders should be for EVERYONE!

welcome to the de-regulated market! great, isn't it?

meanwhile, the oil companies are posting record profits and the bushies refuse to do anything about it. oh well. get used to it, i guess. the free market's decided we regular folks dont deserve to have any money.

welcome to the de-regulated market! great, isn't it?

meanwhile, the oil companies are posting record profits and the bushies refuse to do anything about it. oh well. get used to it, i guess. the free market's decided we regular folks dont deserve to have any money.


Not to pick a fight, Tia...but are you suggesting that there *is* a short-term solution? I'm no economics genius, but it seems to me that the problem isn't so much price gouging or supply issues. What about the fact that the U.S. hasn't expanded refinery capacity since the Carter administration? Lord knows we have more people driving now than we did in the 70s. Is the refinery issue a myth? That aside, I do believe that the system can be manipulated, but are price controls and similar measures realistic solutions? Didn't we try that once before?
I'm on the fence about this gas tax holiday thingmabob.

I know, too many questions.

The oil companies are oligopoly.  Free market competition when it comes to this commodity is a joke.  However, they can only charge so much before it starts to hurt the entire economy.  If there was a viable alternative, I'd sell my car tomorrow, but there isn't.  The diamond cartels keep the price of diamonds artificially high.  The difference is nobody needs a diamond (this means you, ladies).  We have made our economic health dependent on the availability of cheap gas.  No cheap gas = economic depression. 

The first step is to get the oil cartels under the control of the government and not vice-versa as it is now. 
::)

Not to pick a fight, Tia...but are you suggesting that there *is* a short-term solution? I'm no economics genius, but it seems to me that the problem isn't so much price gouging or supply issues. What about the fact that the U.S. hasn't expanded refinery capacity since the Carter administration? Lord knows we have more people driving now than we did in the 70s. Is the refinery issue a myth? That aside, I do believe that the system can be manipulated, but are price controls and similar measures realistic solutions? Didn't we try that once before?
I'm on the fence about this gas tax holiday thingmabob.

I know, too many questions.







well, if you don't have supply coming in, the refinery issue is moot, yes? i don't hear about a backlog of raw crude waiting to be refined so i suspect the refineries issue is a bit of a distraction, sorta like ANWR. the fact that oil companies are enjoying record profits while we languish under heavily overpriced gas is objectively true, however, and i know that this administration would rather swallow a basket full of golf balls than regulate the oil industry. heck, they ARE the oil industry.

i don't know exactly what's going on to create this situation but i think the above may have something to do with it. the previous attempt at price controls was a bit of a different situation i think, though i'm a bit out of my depth -- the OPEC nations had a bone to pick with the US in 73 and 79 and so deliberately ratcheted back production, driving up demand and driving up prices. so attempts at price controls were contradicting an intractable market reality. in the current situation where the oil companies are getting record profits there must be more room to investigate the oil companies and find out what's going on here.

http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/gas-jumps-nearly-3-cents-to-record-oil/n20080508160409990002

"Goldman Sachs analysts recently predicted prices will rise as high as $150 to $200 a barrel within two years. That forecast has driven much of oil's gains in recent days."

Apparently supply and demand no longer apply to economics: all it takes is some name brand anal cyst guy to speculate that oil will be expensive and suddenly it is.  >:(

Seriously though, gmann is correct. We have ancient refineries running at near capacity, and while world demand has increased, it has not more than doubled in two years, unlike the cost of crude oil. Federal and state taxes (VA anyway) amount to 36c a gallon and 42c for diesel. Even wiping them out would still mean 3.50$ a gallon fuel.

Our dollar isn't worth the paper it's printed on, the government is hording oil in the strategic reserves, but the biggest factor is the price of crude oil. Oil company profits are at record highs, however their profit margins are steady. Even eliminating altogether their 18% or so margin (and all taxes), fuel would still be $3 a gallon now.

We constantly get second rate cars over here in terms of gas mileage. My wife just got a 2008 Ford Focus which boasts a "respectable" 35 MPG. Sure, the EPA tightened its ratings recently, and it might get 38 mpg... but this car in Europe wouldn't be in the top 50 vehicles in terms of the mpg it gets. New cars for the US get crappy mileage because of emissions requirements: they run rich so the equipment can do its job better. Vehicle gas mileage hasn't increased appreciably in the past 20 years either: our vehicles now are bigger and heavier due to all the safety requirements and whiz-bang creature comforts. The government standards for fuel efficiency haven't changed in over 20 years either.

Meanwhile, coal fired power plants, many of which are ancient, spew out tons of pollutants into the air...

China's demand for fuel has doubled since 2000. Has there been an increase in the number of new oil fields, supertankers and refineries since then? Not at all.

India is going to be the next big drain on supplies. It's good that they seem to be coming out of the dark ages, but with the fuel demand of a few ten million  Tatas that will eventually be on the roads, gas prices are not coming down.

For those stuck with diesel powered vehicles in the US, you can thank the government for implementing ultra low sulphur madates for the dramatic increases in your fuel costs.

It's not the gas station owners that are gouging us either. They make ~3% per gallon, and in some cases the credit card companies make more per gallon of gas than the station owner.

If that anal cyst at Golddigger Sacks is correct, we can expect 6$ a gallon prices before the decade is over. And heaven forbid if another monster hurricane like Katrina strikes the Gulf Coast anytime soon, or $10+ at the pump will be a reality.

Ant

http://www.gmimotorsports.com/images/frontpic1_040120.jpg

I think Ant and Gmann are basically correct, but I sure as hell wish they weren't!

If crude rises to $200 a barrel, we will have to make major changes to our infrastructure as most people will no longer be able to afford the daily commute.  At $7.00/gal. (maybe lower) I see the start of the worst economic depression since 1930 and the start of civil unrest ("the gas riots").

Thus, I part ways with Ant when he says $10.00 a gallon could be a reality.  I don't doubt it could rise that high; however, it would not be sustainable.

Jesus this is scary.
:o

http://www.gmimotorsports.com/images/frontpic1_040120.jpg

That thing might be nice down south, but up here in New England it would be real frikkin' uncomfortable eight months out of the year.  I also sher's sh*t ain't riding one of those on I-91!
:P

http://www.gmimotorsports.com/images/frontpic1_040120.jpg


As soon as that comes with a 5th wheel option (or, 3rd wheel option), a two ton towing capacity and is fully street legal I'll be all over it.

It's a great option if you're single and carry no more cargo than a pool stick, a six pack and a loaf of bread, but it's a far cry from being practical for most people.

Besides, this gets infinite mpg:

http://www.teamkarim.com/bikes/used/images/071207-02.jpg


Ant

http://www.retropedalcars.com/images/Marx-Big-Wheel.jpg

Heh...  When gas reaches the level of German prices, THEN we'll have reason to bitch...  lol

http://www.retropedalcars.com/images/Marx-Big-Wheel.jpg


Those rule! I had one... when I was 9. You can even learn to drift them at 2mph!  ;D

Ant

Those rule! I had one... when I was 9. You can even learn to drift them at 2mph!  ;D

Ant

So'd I!  I went through several of them.  What I loved so much about the Big Wheel was the low center of gravity.  You couldn't tip the thing over.  I used to take corners at blur-speed, no prob!  It was sort of a sports tricycle.  I love the scenes in "The Shining" where Danny's hauling ass around the hotel on his Big Wheel. 

(More cheerful than the topic at hand, isn't it?)
::)

i'm still not sure why we're going on about refineries when everything i'm reading says that the problem is supply pressures. can someone please clarify why we should build more refineries when supply is tight? i mean, i don't really care, build more refineries, drill in ANWR, if it'll allow us to get serious about the real problem, but i just think neither of these things are the real problem and if by doing them we learn that and then can get serious about actually conserving that'd be great, at long last.

take heart.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15715744/

I think Ant and Gmann are basically correct, but I sure as hell wish they weren't!



:o I'm what?!? I never thought I'd see the day. *That's* scary.

So'd I!  I went through several of them.  What I loved so much about the Big Wheel was the low center of gravity.  You couldn't tip the thing over.  I used to take corners at blur-speed, no prob!  It was sort of a sports tricycle.  I love the scenes in "The Shining" where Danny's hauling ass around the hotel on his Big Wheel. 

(More cheerful than the topic at hand, isn't it?)
::)


I think I had two. I remember wearing holes in the hard plastic wheels with the first one, and I'm sure I quickly ditched the handlebar tassles. You could do little burnouts with them if you were on concrete.  ;D

They are still made in the USA!

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Wheels-16-inch-Original/dp/B0001A866O

I now return this thread to its uncheerful, serious nature.

Ant

take heart.



Before the oil companies take it first!
>:(

i'm still not sure why we're going on about refineries when everything i'm reading says that the problem is supply pressures. can someone please clarify why we should build more refineries when supply is tight? i mean, i don't really care, build more refineries, drill in ANWR, if it'll allow us to get serious about the real problem, but i just think neither of these things are the real problem and if by doing them we learn that and then can get serious about actually conserving that'd be great, at long last.


The problem is that most refineries in America are operating at full or 98% capacity.  In addition to this, there are logistical concerns because of the different blends they must produce for different markets.  Part of some refineries is devoted to ethanol production, for example.

We do need more domestic oil production to lessen our dependency on foreign oil (which will keep us out of the Middle East more).  The less we depend on Saudi Arabia, the better.  This is why I support building more refineries and drilling in ANWR.  We need to loosen up environmental regulations on refinery construction and tighten environmental regulations on power companies.

domestic production is about tapped out. we can keep drilling but we have to realize the environment's already about tapped out, it's not just a tree-hugging concern, the ecology is what lets us live and if we push our luck too hard... we die.

the thing with the folks who wanna build more refineries and drill in ANWR is that they hardly ever mention conservation or alternative energy sources. i personally think we need to base our solutions on all of the above but the subtext of all the anwr stuff i hear seems to be, if we drill in anwr we wont NEED to conserve! i dont mean you, but like the cats on fox news always seem to talk that way.

meanwhile, the oil companies are posting record profits and the bushies refuse to do anything about it. oh well. get used to it, i guess. the free market's decided we regular folks dont deserve to have any money.


Eh?  Nobody's putting a gun to my head when I fill up my 15-mpg gas guzzler. 

If I don't like $4/gallon, I'm free to walk the mile or so from my front door to my job.  Sometimes I feel like I need the exercise and I do.  Other days, I drop $1.00 worth of gas into exhaust fumes and make the drive... and I get there at about the same time that the $1.00 bus would.  (And indeed, some other days, when I've decided to walk but a bus shows up within the first few minutes of my walk to work, I drop the $1.00 I didn't spend on gas by dropping it into the bus's fare box!)

If you live too far from your job to afford the commute - move or get a job that's closer to home.  I'm coming at it from a free market point of view -- eventually the pain will get so high that people will do one of those two things, and prices will adjust to compensate. 

If you think that's heartlessly right-wing of me, ponder the equally heartless left-wing folks who say Ride a bike or take the bus, it'll make you fit or help you become part of the community, and either way, you'll help reduce your carbon footprint.

Either way, I'm seeing house prices dropping more sharply in the suburban communities than in/near the cities.  Whether it's because of a (green) argument that "massive social awakening that our current suburban-commuter lifestyle is unsustainable, so they've gotta sell the hummer for a Prius, or get a job where they can commut with a bicycle and some Spandex", or because of a (capitalist) argument that "at these prices, nobody can afford to drive to work anymore, so they've gotta either move or find new jobs" is immaterial -- the invisible hand of the market is finally moving. 

That's a good thing.  Look at the interest in electric vehicles.  At $4/gallon, the PHEV (plug-in electric vehicle), which can be done by a shadetree mechanic/electrician by using off-the-shelf components and a Toyota Prius to achieve effective mileage of 100+MPG, becomes economical.  For the first time in decades, net gasoline consumption is down year over year. 

And unlike the Carter years, where price controls immediately resulted (as they always do) in shortages and line-ups for the desired commodity, nobody's actually had to be coerced to do anything.  It's suddenly become profitable to become green. In the short term it sucks, but in the long term, I'm really not seeing a downside.  The economy, like life, finds a way.

The oil companies are oligopoly.  Free market competition when it comes to this commodity is a joke.  However, they can only charge so much before it starts to hurt the entire economy.  If there was a viable alternative, I'd sell my car tomorrow, but there isn't.  The diamond cartels keep the price of diamonds artificially high.  The difference is nobody needs a diamond (this means you, ladies).  We have made our economic health dependent on the availability of cheap gas.  No cheap gas = economic depression. 

The first step is to get the oil cartels under the control of the government and not vice-versa as it is now. 
::)


You don't have Public Transportation in your area, do you?

Eh?  Nobody's putting a gun to my head when I fill up my 15-mpg gas guzzler. 

If I don't like $4/gallon, I'm free to walk the mile or so from my front door to my job.  Sometimes I feel like I need the exercise and I do.  Other days, I drop $1.00 worth of gas into exhaust fumes and make the drive... and I get there at about the same time that the $1.00 bus would.  (And indeed, some other days, when I've decided to walk but a bus shows up within the first few minutes of my walk to work, I drop the $1.00 I didn't spend on gas by dropping it into the bus's fare box!)

If you live too far from your job to afford the commute - move or get a job that's closer to home.  I'm coming at it from a free market point of view -- eventually the pain will get so high that people will do one of those two things, and prices will adjust to compensate. 

If you think that's heartlessly right-wing of me, ponder the equally heartless left-wing folks who say Ride a bike or take the bus, it'll make you fit or help you become part of the community, and either way, you'll help reduce your carbon footprint.

Either way, I'm seeing house prices dropping more sharply in the suburban communities than in/near the cities.  Whether it's because of a (green) argument that "massive social awakening that our current suburban-commuter lifestyle is unsustainable, so they've gotta sell the hummer for a Prius, or get a job where they can commut with a bicycle and some Spandex", or because of a (capitalist) argument that "at these prices, nobody can afford to drive to work anymore, so they've gotta either move or find new jobs" is immaterial -- the invisible hand of the market is finally moving. 

That's a good thing.  Look at the interest in electric vehicles.  At $4/gallon, the PHEV (plug-in electric vehicle), which can be done by a shadetree mechanic/electrician by using off-the-shelf components and a Toyota Prius to achieve effective mileage of 100+MPG, becomes economical.  For the first time in decades, net gasoline consumption is down year over year. 

And unlike the Carter years, where price controls immediately resulted (as they always do) in shortages and line-ups for the desired commodity, nobody's actually had to be coerced to do anything.  It's suddenly become profitable to become green. In the short term it sucks, but in the long term, I'm really not seeing a downside.  The economy, like life, finds a way.
like in katrina, or in iraq? i'm seeing those as free-market laboratories, they're where you really see what a totally unregulated (or i should say selectively subsidized) market economy sans public infrastructure gets you. real markets can only flourish in the context of a reasonable public infrastructure.

the thing about waiting for gas prices to get so bad that people can't bear them and then counting on the free market to make adjustments is a. people DO fall through the cracks, and the more prices go up for essentials like gas and food the more people are going to slip into the mire of poverty while we wait for the free market to get the rest of us out, and b. if we ever encounter a problem that requires forward thinking to get us out of it, we'll be screwed. because by the tenet of the free market, we'll have to wait for problems such as, say, air pollution to get so bad we'll be choking on the fumes before the market forces get motivated enough to do something about it. sometimes problems need to get fixed BEFORE it's obvious they're problems.

the commute thing is interesting. here in washington it's virtually impossible to live near your job unless you're rich. real estate prices are so hopelessly inflated in the cities that anyone with a regular job literally needs to commute from 60 or 70 miles away every day because that's the only place where you can afford an apartment if you're an administrative assistant or a junior analyst. that worked out okay when gas was a dollar a gallon but now these people are getting priced out of being able to work in the city and have juicy box-store retail jobs awaiting them when they can no longer make ends meet. once the free market has evolved them out of their jobs, how will it fill the admin and analyst jobs they'll be forced to vacate? i'm not sure, but i can be sure they'll be left high and dry.

domestic production is about tapped out. we can keep drilling but we have to realize the environment's already about tapped out, it's not just a tree-hugging concern, the ecology is what lets us live and if we push our luck too hard... we die.

the thing with the folks who wanna build more refineries and drill in ANWR is that they hardly ever mention conservation or alternative energy sources. i personally think we need to base our solutions on all of the above but the subtext of all the anwr stuff i hear seems to be, if we drill in anwr we wont NEED to conserve! i dont mean you, but like the cats on fox news always seem to talk that way.


Why not do both?  We can boost domestic production AND fund alternative energy research.  There's no reason we can't take this approach.  We're not tapped out by a long shot, because they keep finding new sources of oil in North America.  Alberta has a lot in particular.

that's what i'm saying. do both.

this is interesting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080509/bs_nm/markets_oil_dc;_ylt=AiaVVPoTHprxkudfSfXV2RtZ.3QA

they mention a lot of speculation that's driving up the prices of oil, makes me wonder if we're now seeing a bubble in that the way we saw a bubble in housing before. with totally unregulated stock market speculation there's no end to the craziness that can come up, it could be these hiked up oil prices have nothing to do with supply disruptions, they have to do with the US debt, the exchange rate, and rampant speculative short-term buying.

I'm beginning to think that an electric car is the only viable near-term solution at this point.

My solution to the $4 gallon-we can all drive what they drove during the stone age when there wasn't any oil (since the dinosaurs hadn't turned into oil yet).


http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/full/andy4.jpg


:D :D ;D ;D ;D



Cat

that's what i'm saying. do both.

this is interesting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080509/bs_nm/markets_oil_dc;_ylt=AiaVVPoTHprxkudfSfXV2RtZ.3QA

they mention a lot of speculation that's driving up the prices of oil, makes me wonder if we're now seeing a bubble in that the way we saw a bubble in housing before. with totally unregulated stock market speculation there's no end to the craziness that can come up, it could be these hiked up oil prices have nothing to do with supply disruptions, they have to do with the US debt, the exchange rate, and rampant speculative short-term buying.


The problem I see isn't a lack of regulation.  It's the fact that we bail out big companies when they fall.  When we get rid of a lot of the risk in speculation and irresponsible lending, then these companies just throw money to the wind knowing full well that the Fed Reserve and the government will help them if they screw things up.

If companies like Bear Stearns had known there would be no bailouts, they'd probably have played it safer earlier on.  With oil, we'll probably see a bailout as well when this bubble bursts.

My solution to the $4 gallon-we can all drive what they drove during the stone age when there wasn't any oil (since the dinosaurs hadn't turned into oil yet).


http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/full/andy4.jpg


:D :D ;D ;D ;D



Cat


I don't know.

I'm not sure my feet can handle the Flintstone Braking System.  :D

You don't have Public Transportation in your area, do you?

Oh, we do, but the bus routes are designed for the enormous college student population in this area.  I could not get from my house in the south of Amherst to my office in downtown Greenfield if I had all day! 

That "move or get a job closer to home" rubbish sounds like the crap they say on FOX News.  Let 'em eat cake.
::)

I don't know.

I'm not sure my feet can handle the Flintstone Braking System.  :D
you should either move closer to work, or become a cartoon character, like me.

you should either move closer to work, or become a cartoon character, like me.


Have you caught the Road Runner yet?

you should either move closer to work, or become a cartoon character, like me.

Yeah, I'm gonna be driving one of those Fred Flintstone cars before long!
:D

Yeah, I'm gonna be driving one of those Fred Flintstone cars before long!
:D
Maybe I ought to just cut the floorboards out of my Crown Vic.  ;D

Maybe I ought to just cut the floorboards out of my Crown Vic.   ;D

ooooooooh!!! Take pictures! I gotta see that!!! ;D ;D

ooooooooh!!! Take pictures! I gotta see that!!! ;D ;D


Oh, if I only had Photoshop...

Maybe I ought to just cut the floorboards out of my Crown Vic.   ;D

If there was just a way of marketing Fred Flintsone cars, we'd be zillionaires!
:D

Maybe I ought to just cut the floorboards out of my Crown Vic.  ;D


Given that I have no life to speak of, here is a prototype of Al's Crown Vic ala Flintstone.  Naturally it'll be in better shape when the model is made, but notice the smoke coming off his feet from the anti-lock braking system.  ;)

Given that I have no life to speak of, here is a prototype of Al's Crown Vic ala Flintstone.  Naturally it'll be in better shape when the model is made, but notice the smoke coming off his feet from the anti-lock braking system.  ;)


LMAO!!! (+1 karma)  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Let's go with the family down the street
Through the courtesy of Al's two feet!  :D

LMAO!!! (+1 karma)  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Let's go with the family down the street
Through the courtesy of Al's two feet!  :D


MC AL-B
???

Given that I have no life to speak of, here is a prototype of Al's Crown Vic ala Flintstone.  Naturally it'll be in better shape when the model is made, but notice the smoke coming off his feet from the anti-lock braking system.  ;)


Oh neat, guess it one AL-B power, well two if the person who shotgun can syncrinze their feet with his.

Oh neat, guess it one AL-B power, well two if the person who shotgun can syncrinze their feet with his.


That might be kind of hard...because I have happy feet!

Given that I have no life to speak of, here is a prototype of Al's Crown Vic ala Flintstone.  Naturally it'll be in better shape when the model is made, but notice the smoke coming off his feet from the anti-lock braking system.  ;)



TOO FUNNY!!! Karma from me, too.




Cat

It'll be $4.00 for premium here by Friday


F***ing thing sucks!

--Bill O'Reilly

It'll be $4.00 for premium here by Friday


F***ing thing sucks!

--Bill O'Reilly


There may be a new policy that we'll have more gallons of oil in old salt mines.

I wonder if there are any empty salt mines in Cleveland?

Well it was 3.95 for regular here at the station down the street.  I'm almost glad we filled up at $3.75 a couple days ago and then our transmission died the night we filled up.  Seems like we got a bargin for the gas, maybe we'll just push the car wherever we need to go.  ::)

In Canada a liter is around 1.24 per liter so about $4.69 to the US gallon.
Ain't you glad you drive a humvee at 5 miles per gallon!
I'm Buying A New Motorcycle to save on gas!
Been checking out the New "Cowasaki"