...will America and the world go into another Dark Ages?

Try 1995's Ill Wind, by Kevin J. Anderson and Doug Beason.  I haven't read the more recent Darkness Falls (by Kyle Mills), but the premise is the same.  Both are probably worth reading for ideas. 

In short, no.  Given sufficient sources of energy (nuclear, solar) and the resources (guns, which anyone can manufacture/maintain even in the absence of electricity), a skeleton government, even one based on regional warlords, could reboot civilization within a few decades. After the first 75-90% of the world's population dies of starvation and/or internal dissent, regional stability reasserts itself, feudal warlords discover there's more power to be had in cooperating rather than fighting each other, and we pick up more or less where we left off in the 19th century, except that instead of switching from steam to hydrocarbons, we jump from steam to nuclear and solar.  (Sorta like how Asia skipped landlines and went directly from snail-mail to wireless telephony.)

don't you need manufacturing infrastructure to build the structures and organization needed to exploit solar and nuclear power? there's a hump you have to get over to get out of a muscle-power-based economy and i'm not sure they're gonna have that. tough to build a nuclear power plant with oxen.

i dunno, given that we're all gonna be eating seaweed in the short run it's hard to care.

and of course, the question isn't if we run out of gas but when. some say it's happening now, some say 10, 20, 30 years. hardly anyone seems to think it's going to be more than a hundred. and i'll be damned if it looks like anyone's even pretending to look for a solution.

good topic by the way.

oh, and it'll be worse than the dark ages. in the dark ages 1/3 of europe died of the plague. we'd be looking at more than 50% of the world population dying, easy. :(

We send the old lady to thumb a ride with the gas can while we sit back and smoke a j...

Oh...you mean if the world runs out of oil!
:D

Anyway, we'll never run out of oil, we'll just run out of cheap oil.  That will mean skyrocketing prices for absolutely everything, food and fuel shortages, abandoned suburbs, urban centers mobbed with angry, frightened Americans with guns, and a depression that will make the Grapes of Wrath look like an episode of Leave it to Beaver!  Dark ages?  You could call it that.
:o

Anyway, we'll never run out of oil, we'll just run out of cheap oil.  That will mean skyrocketing prices for absolutely everything, food and fuel shortages, abandoned suburbs, urban centers mobbed with angry, frightened Americans with guns, and a depression that will make the Grapes of Wrath look like an episode of Leave it to Beaver!  Dark ages?  You could call it that.


It's never gonna happen. It's the wet dream of the city living eco-warriors who are convinced the suburbs are evil and that everyone is just going to move back into the cities because the suburb lifestyle isn't sustainable.  I see this fantasy mentioned every time oil spikes upwards, or some new housing crunch or something else.

Current US cities couldn't handle a massive influx of people.  The infrastructure isn't up to par, and outside of some real hell holes like Detroit, there's nowhere near enough places for people to live because most cities are already at a point where most housing is occupied.  Rising costs of housing as people started moving back would make it off the price range for most people real quick, to a point where the fuel costs are minor compared to the rent costs.

Most alternative energy sources become more cost effective when oil is priced at a point where the US govt subsidies aren't making it artificially cheap.  Even at the current prices, it's still not where it "should be" relative to inflation and the cost of gasoline 50 years ago.  This is by design, to make sure the oil companies maintain their current monopolies, and keep new technologies from maturing. The weak dollar however is helping negate this market, and with new technologies some real promising greener fuel sources are becoming very cost effective.

If I invested about $80K in equipment, I could live very comfortably off the grid right now.  A mix of solar and wind power, with hydrogen for excess storage and as a fuel source for my vehicle.  I know this, because someone on Long Island did it recently.  Solar has been coming down steadily in cost for production for the last 30 years, and with some less efficient (but super cheap) materials, it's going to break wide open in two or three years (not the 10 or 15 you always used to hear).  I'd be willing to bet that the cost of a similar setup in five years would be half as much.

By the time petroleum gets a little more scarce, there will be something to replace it.  Too many energy companies depend on it not to have something in place to sell.  Think Y2K.  All the media hype and conspiracy theories of planes falling from the sky.  What ultimately happened?  Nothing.  Want to know why?  The companies knew if they allowed something to happen with their software, they would be held liable by the customers and the stock holders.  You think Exxon is not planning for a replacement for oil if it begins to become more scarce?  Their shareholders would hunt them down and sue every penny out of them.  No one is going to let a captive market place of energy consumers that large go unserviced.  Too much money at stake.

Sure there will be some periods where prices get a little out of whack, but it's not going to be a dot-com scenario of running into a brick wall with no foresight of what might happen two or ten years out.

man, i hope you're right. i remember being one of the guys contemplating buying buckets of rice in late 1999 because i drank a bit of the kool-aid and believed that y2k was really gonna be the ess aitch eye tee hitting the fan. truth be told, it could have been, and i like to think that the people getting a little panicky about it helped to motivate the massive effort to retool all those old programs that, maybe, actually averted the catastrophe. or maybe it was all a fake crisis to begin with, we'll probably never know -- but at least it gave all those old-school COBOL and FORTRAN programmers something to do.

the stuff i read about the massive amount of energy released by crude oil, and the massive amounts of crude oil in the ground that we've been feasting off of for the past century or so, there's this whole argument about how difficult it is to find an easily portable, highly concentrated energy source to replace that that's quite convincing and really disconcerting. and the fact that there are already 6 billion people tottering about on the planet, i dunno... it strikes me as quite a tricky problem.

I was going to make a smartassed reply about cooking up a pot of chili beans and gas, but my brain hurts, so I can't think of a good way to incorporate that into a joke. :P

Myth #1: The urbane eco-warriors want everybody else to live like them.
Reality: The don't because they're SNOBS!
:-\\

Myth #2: There is a myth #2.
Reality: "Myth #1" sounds better than plain old "Myth."

Anyway, I'm just saying even if your better case scenario comes to pass, you can still count on an uncomfortable adjustment.  I have read some good cases for viable high-tech/high-density civilization based on "alternative" energy sources, but none that will duplicate the ease and simplicity of Texas Tea!

Speaking of cities: My prediction is the new ghettoes will be the old suburbs as the inner cities become havens for David Brooks' "bobos."  

And speaking of Y2K:  Folks used to ask me as they were stocking up on bulk drygoods and kerosene what I was stocking up on for Y2K.  I said I was getting an AK47 for Y2K and on New Years Day I'm going to your house and your house and your house!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/02/camper.gif

omg! you're bitter! :D

i think it'll be very interesting (in a sick, dawn-of-the-dead kinda way) seeing what happens to the suburbs if the worst-case scenario comes to pass. this idea of the burbs becoming this vast, inhospitable desert of drywall and asphalt really sparks the dystopian sci-fi writer wannabe in me. i'm surprised there haven't been a hundred movies about it already, although maybe it's just too damn scary to contemplate.

omg! you're bitter! :D

i think it'll be very interesting (in a sick, dawn-of-the-dead kinda way) seeing what happens to the suburbs if the worst-case scenario comes to pass. this idea of the burbs becoming this vast, inhospitable desert of drywall and asphalt really sparks the dystopian sci-fi writer wannabe in me. i'm surprised there haven't been a hundred movies about it already, although maybe it's just too damn scary to contemplate.


Um, you're kinda describing the suburbs as-is!  Your description reminds me of my high school days.  All you have to do is add the zombies--but these are special zombies; these zombies ride around in rusty old Monte Carlos and scream "hey f@ggot!" out the window over the din Skynyrd and clouds of stale Marlboro smoke!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/jinnwink.gif

hey dude, the burbs rocked back in my day. we got drunk, played mailbox baseball and cranked iron maiden out of our car stereos. it was awesome.

hey dude, the burbs rocked back in my day. we got drunk, played mailbox baseball and cranked iron maiden out of our car stereos. it was awesome.

Say hi to Ralph and Potsie for me!
::)

We'll never run out of gas.  It's so expensive, no one can afford it :\'(

Today I paid:  $1.17/Litre >:(

...will America and the world go into another Dark Ages?


  When we run out of gas I'm walking to Cleveland in a motorcycle jacket, flowing black robes with a sawed-off shotgun strapped to my thigh...

 

 

Anyway, I'm just saying even if your better case scenario comes to pass, you can still count on an uncomfortable adjustment.  I have read some good cases for viable high-tech/high-density civilization based on "alternative" energy sources, but none that will duplicate the ease and simplicity of Texas Tea!

Speaking of cities: My prediction is the new ghettoes will be the old suburbs as the inner cities become havens for David Brooks' "bobos." 


We're already experiencing the start of the uncomfortable adjustment.  It's just not going to be this huge fall off the cliff that everyone assumes.  There's plenty of energy sources on the planet.  Super cheap sources are getting tougher to find, time to switch to slightly harder ones.

The worst case scenario is just not going to happen in the first world.  It's going to be the third world that gets the brunt of it.  Food riots are already occurring in several countries because the cheap exports from the cheap energy countries are starting to slow.

As for the urban centers, I think we'll see Atlanta and Las Vegas disappear long before we see a large number of suburbs disappear.  Every city requires resources from far outside of it's borders to exist.  Those two cities in particular are still reeling from droughts and lack of access to water.

We're already experiencing the start of the uncomfortable adjustment.  It's just not going to be this huge fall off the cliff that everyone assumes.  There's plenty of energy sources on the planet.  Super cheap sources are getting tougher to find, time to switch to slightly harder ones.

The worst case scenario is just not going to happen in the first world.  It's going to be the third world that gets the brunt of it.  Food riots are already occurring in several countries because the cheap exports from the cheap energy countries are starting to slow.

As for the urban centers, I think we'll see Atlanta and Las Vegas disappear long before we see a large number of suburbs disappear.  Every city requires resources from far outside of it's borders to exist.  Those two cities in particular are still reeling from droughts and lack of access to water.

Well said, sir.  I concur. It's not going to crash overnight, life is just going to suck a little more all the time! 

NO WATER = NO CITY.
'nuff said.

the one thing we're not doing, is running out of gas

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/apr2008/bw2008041_945564.htm

in fact, demand in the US, home of the SUV gas guzzler, demand was down 2% from last year.

NO WATER = NO CITY.
'nuff said.


Thought experiment:  (All numbers completely fabricated.)

The casinos in Las Vegas collectively pull in $10B/year in gambling profits.
The city of Las Vegas collects about $1B/year in taxes (property taxes, hotel taxes, etc) on the people that come to the city to gamble.
It now costs $100M/year to keep the water flowing.  In ten years, it'll cost $500M/year to keep the water flowing.

As the Mayor, do you pay the extra $400M/year to (assorted manufacturers of water purification and transportation equipment, and/or privatized municipal water utilities), and knowing that since a lot of your annual $1B/year in tax income is paid by visitors, if you don't like your margins, you simply increase taxes on tourists more than you increase the taxes on locals by whatever you need to keep your own margins up?  Or do you let the city crumble to dust?

If the answer is "you pay the $400M/y", then no matter what you'd do as Mayor tax-wise, your solution as an investor is to price out and investigate the sorts of private companies in the water delivery/purification/desalination business.

Thought experiment:  (All numbers completely fabricated.)

The casinos in Las Vegas collectively pull in $10B/year in gambling profits.
The city of Las Vegas collects about $1B/year in taxes (property taxes, hotel taxes, etc) on the people that come to the city to gamble.
It now costs $100M/year to keep the water flowing.  In ten years, it'll cost $500M/year to keep the water flowing.

As the Mayor, do you pay the extra $400M/year to (assorted manufacturers of water purification and transportation equipment, and/or privatized municipal water utilities), and knowing that since a lot of your annual $1B/year in tax income is paid by visitors, if you don't like your margins, you simply increase taxes on tourists more than you increase the taxes on locals by whatever you need to keep your own margins up?  Or do you let the city crumble to dust?

If the answer is "you pay the $400M/y", then no matter what you'd do as Mayor tax-wise, your solution as an investor is to price out and investigate the sorts of private companies in the water delivery/purification/desalination business.

You're talking ahout the feasibility of getting water.  Important because: NO WATER = NO CITY.

I agree with Chucky, we're not running out of gas at this point.  We let Big Oil run the country, and this is the result: $4.00/gal. gas. 
::)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ

Yeah, I read his book "The Long Emergency."  JHK is one righteous dude!

"Boston City Hall Plaza: A public space so dismal even the winos don't want to be there." 
He's got that right.  For the same reason, the campus of UMass, Amherst, is so dismal.  Brutalist concrete buildings harkening back to the Soviet frontier!

I would emphasize the "long emergency" has been upon us for 30 years and the decline of suburbia will not necessarily usher in an age of new urbanism.  We're not Europeans.  We're not Europeans because Europeans don't do a donut out in front of the Dairy Queen!
::)

i think that's an interesting twist. the whole manifest destiny-frontier-mentality-massive oil reserves heritage we came from as americans is exactly what made the US so dominant on the world stage over the past century or so, but it'll be a massive liability in this future if kunstler is right. but the liberal backlash against that has also been very powerful here, so i think the US still stands a chance of playing a meaningful role in engineering the new zero-sum-energy-consumption society that the world is gonna have to piece together in the next few decades. because when people realize, oh, creating a society in balance with the environment isn't some faggy touchy-feely BS, it's actually the only way to survive in the long run. then people, including fast-food-and-styrofoam-lovin' me, are gonna be looking to the environmentalists who have already been working these problems for decades. and a lot of that happened in america explicitly because so much of america is also so freaky right wing that vietnam and the arms race had to happen and create a radicalized left wing in response.

anyway, the question is: is the donut-in-front-of-the-dairy-queen crowd gonna shut the hell up once they can't do donuts, and let somebody else run things for a change? or are they just gonna start lashing out looking for people to beat on? cuz if it's the latter we'll be looking at a new dark age.

i think that's an interesting twist, the whole manifest destiny-frontier-mentality-massive oil reserves heritage we came from as americans are exactly what made the US so dominant on the world stage over the past century or so, but will in one sense be massive liabilities but the liberal backlash against that has also been very powerful here, so i think we still stand a chance of playing a very meaningful role in engineering the new zero-sum-energy-consumption society that the world is gonna have to piece together in the next few decades. because what's going to happen is, when people realize, oh, creating a society in balance with the environment isn't some faggy touchy-feely BS, it's actually the only way to survive in the long run. then people, including fast-food-and-styrofoam-lovin' me, are gonna be looking to the environmentalists who have already been working these problems for decades. and a lot of that happened in america explicitly because so much of america is also so freaky right wing that vietnam and the arms race had to happen and create a radicalized left wing in response.

anyway, the question is: is the donut-in-front-of-the-dairy-queen crowd gonna shut the hell up once they can't do donuts, and let somebody else run things for a change? or are they just gonna start lashing out looking for people to beat on? cuz if it's the latter we'll be looking at a new dark age.

Thirty years ago the only people even talking about "recycling" were university eggheads and big-bearded carrot juice drinkers.  Today most towns have recycling programs in municipal refuse collection and even Archie Bunker goes along with it, albeit grumbling a bit.  Twenty years ago, once again, it was only scientists and eco-maniacs talking about alternative fuels.  Now even Exxon is talking about them, maybe not much more than talking, but talking nonetheless.  The poor long-term prospects for the suburban tract mansion and the highway big box and fastfood strip is getting lip service from guys like Kunstler today, but perhaps in as little as ten years, it will appear in the forefront of the national agenda.

The donut-in-front-of-the-Dairy Queen boys will quickly re-learn the pub alley knife fight of their grandfathers!
;)

first off we are still finding new spots of oil in the earth today, there was a huge one recently found under los angles nd Beverly hills i think was the second one was, but the land there is worth more then the oil which is probably a good thing, nd if we did run out of gas we wouldn't be around anyways, all earth lifewould be completely dead from all the carbon dioxide which would be in the ozone nd heat the world to god awful degrees.  u don't really think we could just use all that sheesh up with no consequences did u?

Say what you will about how fuel prices are affecting those suburbanites who have to travel long distances to and from work (my daily commute is 17.5 miles each way), but as one who works in the trucking industry, I fear that the rising costs of diesel fuel (which averages almost $1 per gallon more than regular unleaded) may very well have a catastrophic effect on the U.S. economy in the not-too-distant future.  :(

first off we are still finding new spots of oil in the earth today, there was a huge one recently found under los angles nd Beverly hills i think was the second one was, but the land there is worth more then the oil which is probably a good thing, nd if we did run out of gas we wouldn't be around anyways, all earth lifewould be completely dead from all the carbon dioxide which would be in the ozone nd heat the world to god awful degrees.  u don't really think we could just use all that sheesh up with no consequences did u?


Really? I heard that there was one in the Dakotas.

But digging up for oil is now forbidden since we need to protect the environment. But we have more trees than we did 100 years ago and we have scaled-down pollution a lot since WWII.

So until we can find a way to protect wildlife and drill for resources at the same time...we're screwed, and Congress isn't helping either.

But digging up for oil is now forbidden since we need to protect the environment. But we have more trees than we did 100 years ago and we have scaled-down pollution a lot since WWII.


What's so special about 100 years ago?  I keep hearing that stat thrown out but can't figure out the significance. 100 years ago anything outside of a city was farmland.  Almost the entire east coast of the US was completely deforested at one point.  Old growth forest and east coast don't exactly fit in the same sentence unless you're talking about a few hundred acres here and there.  All that happened is that substance farming became too unprofitable forcing small farms to close resulting in nature retaking the cleared farmland.  I doubt there's more trees now than there was ten years ago now that the once unprofitable farmland is cleared to plant giant McMansions on the lots. Heck, make it 50 years, or the entire length of time the suburban building boom has been underway.

Pollution has not been scaled down since WWII, if it had the US would be more than happy to sign the Kyoto accord.  Improvement in cars and other technologies have helped, but they're by no means resulting in less pollution as a whole.

None of the recent oil field discoveries are big enough to justify the destruction caused by removing the oil.  Even the Alaska field the Republicans are so hot an heavy to dig into isn't enough oil to run all the cars in the US for a single day.  It would however be enough to make some people who donated to the Republican party very rich.

Say what you will about how fuel prices are affecting those suburbanites who have to travel long distances to and from work (my daily commute is 17.5 miles each way), but as one who works in the trucking industry, I fear that the rising costs of diesel fuel (which averages almost $1 per gallon more than regular unleaded) may very well have a catastrophic effect on the U.S. economy in the not-too-distant future.  :(


very true.. I guess the cities will compensate by just planting fields of corn in their parks or something. 

Cities are very dependent on their supply lines.  If the suburbs are going to be harmed (or turn into ghost towns!), then the cities aren't going to be much further behind them. 

What's so special about 100 years ago?  I keep hearing that stat thrown out but can't figure out the significance. 100 years ago anything outside of a city was farmland.  Almost the entire east coast of the US was completely deforested at one point.  Old growth forest and east coast don't exactly fit in the same sentence unless you're talking about a few hundred acres here and there.  All that happened is that substance farming became too unprofitable forcing small farms to close resulting in nature retaking the cleared farmland.  I doubt there's more trees now than there was ten years ago now that the once unprofitable farmland is cleared to plant giant McMansions on the lots. Heck, make it 50 years, or the entire length of time the suburban building boom has been underway.
It would take hundreds of years of environmental evolution for the "old growth" forests to return.  As you say, a hundred years ago much more of the east was under cultivation.  New Hampshire, where I grew up, is full of swamps and weedy birch stands that once were pastures.  It's a phase the ground goes through as the forest reclaims the meadow.  Hardwoods such as oak and maple have extensive root systems that hold the forest floor together, but first they have to kill the swamp birches and pines.  This process might take a couple of hundred years worth of uninterrupted decay and growth cycling. 

Anyway, if we want to make cost-effective ethanol, we've got to learn to do it with all common plant cellulose.  That we we could use leaf litter and switch grass.  Corn (maize) requires a great deal of labor and pesticides to cultivate and is quite taxing of the soil. 

Pollution has not been scaled down since WWII, if it had the US would be more than happy to sign the Kyoto accord.  Improvement in cars and other technologies have helped, but they're by no means resulting in less pollution as a whole.
The population of the united states has doubled since WWII (worldwide it has trebled) and that in itself causes a terrific environmental strain.  We would be in much better shape if we still had 1948's population while enforcing 2008 pollution regulations. 

None of the recent oil field discoveries are big enough to justify the destruction caused by removing the oil.  Even the Alaska field the Republicans are so hot an heavy to dig into isn't enough oil to run all the cars in the US for a single day.  It would however be enough to make some people who donated to the Republican party very rich.

I agree drilling in Alaska is not the answer, but are you sure the amount of extractable oil is that little?  I've heard "six moths' worth" at current consumption levels, but it would not even be available until 2015.  The fact is fossil fuels are finite.  Eventually, we are going to have to find another way. 

I too have been worried about the cost of diesel fuel.  It is hitting independent contractors particularly hard.  I don't know the percentage of cargo transported by independent contractors, but if these guys decline more and more jobs due to fuel costs, we're all going to feel it when we go shopping.

Anyway, if we want to make cost-effective ethanol, we've got to learn to do it with all common plant cellulose.  That we we could use leaf litter and switch grass.  Corn (maize) requires a great deal of labor and pesticides to cultivate and is quite taxing of the soil. 

While ethanol from corn is fairly stupid, switch grass and other cellulose material isn't a lot better.  The real future will be in algae.  There's a lot of promising growth in this field and there's some large scale prototypes currently going into development.

Combine it with thermal solar and wind, and there's more than enough energy to be found.


I agree drilling in Alaska is not the answer, but are you sure the amount of extractable oil is that little?  I've heard "six moths' worth" at current consumption levels, but it would not even be available until 2015.  The fact is fossil fuels are finite.  Eventually, we are going to have to find another way. 


The problem is that the ANWAR field is poorly surveyed because it was off limits for so many years.  It could be a days worth, or a month or six months at the most.  Either way, it's not a solution of any kind.  Not to mention that if oil just keeps going up in price, it only becomes more valuable the longer it's there anyways.

It's kinda funny how rising gas prices can change people's attitudes so quickly, mine included.

Suddenly I'm finding myself much more interested in an electric car.

It's kinda funny how rising gas prices can change people's attitudes so quickly, mine included.

Suddenly I'm finding myself much more interested in an electric car.



an electric car! omg that's so gay! z-snap!

actually, i've been eyeballing mopeds. this country's likely to be a lot more european in a few years. which may drive the south, once again, to try and secede, i dunno.

actually, i've been eyeballing mopeds.

Getting 120 mpg isn't bad...

In '99, I was stuck between a moped/scooter and a Ninja 250. I went with the Ninja. It was only about 1k more than a nice moped and was fully street legal (i.e., can take it on major highways/interstates). It got 60+ mpg.

Ant

an electric car! omg that's so gay! z-snap!


Well, I think that the electric car manufacturers have finally realized that part of the problem is that the styling of their cars was too gay. And by making their cars less gay-looking, they might just have a wider appeal. Examples:

Gay.
http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/zap_xebra_electric_vehicle.jpg

Gay.
http://www.wired.com/news/images/full/bigrspro.jpg

Not gay.
http://es.motorfull.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Tesla-Roadster.jpg

Not gay.
http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/07images/autos/gm/volt/voltconcept-600.jpg

(Hey, you're the one who brought up the "gay" reference.  :D)


actually, i've been eyeballing mopeds. this country's likely to be a lot more european in a few years. which may drive the south, once again, to try and secede, i dunno.

I was kind of thinking about getting a scooter myself but it's just not feasible for me for numerous reasons.  Not to mention that I test rode one a few weeks back and when I saw my reflection I looked like a complete doofus on it. Some people can pull off the whole Quadrophenia thing.

I can't.  ;D

Kinda thinking that if and when I move someplace with a garage, a Harley Sportster might work better for me. They're relatively cheap (about $7000-$8000 new), much more viable for freeway travel than a scooter, and they get around 50-60 mpg.

While ethanol from corn is fairly stupid, switch grass and other cellulose material isn't a lot better.  The real future will be in algae.  There's a lot of promising growth in this field and there's some large scale prototypes currently going into development.


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/uota-nsf042308.php

instead of the 820,000 square miles it would take to fuel the nation on corn derived ethanol, they could do it with about 20,000 square miles.  More likely it would be only a few thousand miles, because they would only be one source for fuel.

While ethanol from corn is fairly stupid, switch grass and other cellulose material isn't a lot better.  The real future will be in algae.  There's a lot of promising growth in this field and there's some large scale prototypes currently going into development.


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/uota-nsf042308.php

instead of the 820,000 square miles it would take to fuel the nation on corn derived ethanol, they could do it with about 20,000 square miles.  More likely it would be only a few thousand miles, because they would only be one source for fuel.

As long as White Castle is around, I shall never run out of gas.  http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/fart.gif

http://homepage.mac.com/mattvant/Pix/WhiteCastle_M.JPG

As long as White Castle is around, I shall never run out of gas.  http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/fart.gif

http://homepage.mac.com/mattvant/Pix/WhiteCastle_M.JPG



Say, are you thinking what I'm thinking? 

FART CARS!

Get the guys together for beer and nachos and let's all fuel up!
:D

As long as White Castle is around, I shall never run out of gas.  http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/fart.gif

http://homepage.mac.com/mattvant/Pix/WhiteCastle_M.JPG




My God, that looks good.

don't look now, but i think bush just announced, to very little fanfare, that we're royally screwed.

"Gasoline price high due inadequate oil output: Bush 48 minutes ago



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush said on Tuesday that U.S. gasoline prices are at record levels because global oil production is not keeping pace with demand.

ADVERTISEMENT

"One of the main reasons for high gas prices is global oil production is not keeping up with growing demand," Bush said at a news conference.

(Reporting by Tom Doggett)"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080429/ts_nm/bush_oil_dc_1;_ylt=Aspt5Q5GVuwTfPs24qnlkhwE1vAI

don't look now, but i think bush just announced, to very little fanfare, that we're royally screwed.

"Gasoline price high due inadequate oil output: Bush 48 minutes ago



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush said on Tuesday that U.S. gasoline prices are at record levels because global oil production is not keeping pace with demand.

ADVERTISEMENT

"One of the main reasons for high gas prices is global oil production is not keeping up with growing demand," Bush said at a news conference.

(Reporting by Tom Doggett)"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080429/ts_nm/bush_oil_dc_1;_ylt=Aspt5Q5GVuwTfPs24qnlkhwE1vAI


I've been deceived by a two-term president that I put in there....And now Arabia and China owns our asses.

Any kick-yourself icons on here?

it's not even that, so much, but if we're entering a permanent production decline in oil we may be in deep, deep doo doo. and that seems to be what bush has inadvertently said.

i like talk about instability in oil rich regions, the effect of the weak dollar or rampant financial speculation in the oil market being responsible for the high oil prices. but talks about oil prices being related to supply deficiencies makes me very nervous, cuz there's no real way to fix that. :-\\

it's not even that, so much, but if we're entering a permanent production decline in oil we may be in deep, deep doo doo. and that seems to be what bush has inadvertently said.

i like talk about instability in oil rich regions, the effect of the weak dollar or rampant financial speculation in the oil market being responsible for the high oil prices. but talks about oil prices being related to supply deficiencies makes me very nervous, cuz there's no real way to fix that. :-\\


One thing you have to remember is that production has been scaled back purposely in OPEC nations, not only that but Iraq used to kick out about 3 times what it currently does.

Oil will eventually run out, but at this point in time there are several contributing factors slowing it's production.

One thing you have to remember is that production has been scaled back purposely in OPEC nations, not only that but Iraq used to kick out about 3 times what it currently does.

Oil will eventually run out, but at this point in time there are several contributing factors slowing it's production.
that's true, good points. i think i watched enough doom-and-gloom peak oil stuff on youtube that i'm now on hair-trigger panic mode where peak oil is concerned. ;D

that's true, good points. i think i watched enough doom-and-gloom peak oil stuff on youtube that i'm now on hair-trigger panic mode where peak oil is concerned. ;D


Well, it will come, but there are so many factors that are limiting it right now. That being said, now is the time to really try and come up with something new.

The oil cartels now have so much money they don't know what to do with it.  They're using c-notes as TP.  This was the Bush/Cheney agenda from the git-go!  Yeah, there are market forces at work, but the market is carefull engineered to benefit the chosen few!

Say, are you thinking what I'm thinking? 

FART CARS!

Get the guys together for beer and nachos and let's all fuel up!
:D


Hell, if someone built a car that ran on flatus and gave me and Davey Thrashmister Satan's Dad each a couple cases of Busch Light and 6 or 7 sacks of those wonderful little gutbombs from White Castle, I'll bet we could win the 24 Hours of LeMans.  8)

from another messageboard...

"I am converting my car to run on bulls**t and then voting Republican."

priceless.

Someone said that gas will be $10 a gallon! :o

And...who wants to tax the oil, McCain? Hellary? Obama?

mccain and hillary both want to rescind the tax during the summer season, and apparently the economists are almost unanimous in thinking that that will actually drive up demand during the peak season and further destabilize the market. it's a foolish proposal but offering tax cuts is a fast way to get some easy votes. obama's position is the only responsible one -- we can't just keep parroting "tax cuts! tax cuts!" at the expense of the country, we really gotta get down to business and fix these problems.

i think obama can really use this gas tax cut thing against mccain and hillary, because it shows neither of them really knows what they're talking about.

...will America and the world go into another Dark Ages?


America seems to have followed the UK's stand on upping petrol prices at every flipping opportunity  >:( >:(

At least in the US 'gas' is still only about £2 a gallon..we pay nearly that for a LITRE!!!

They are profit greedy vermin

Hell, if someone built a car that ran on flatus and gave me and Davey Thrashmister Satan's Dad each a couple cases of Busch Light and 6 or 7 sacks of those wonderful little gutbombs from White Castle, I'll bet we could win the 24 Hours of LeMans.  8)


Dude, we could run the space shuttle.

By the way, any mod's reading this.. feel free to change my name back, I no longer want to be associated with the prince of all darkness, Dave's reputation of brutality exceeds Lucifer's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSF3opv2gU0

ok, dude made it funny but i'm officially a little panicky again.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_bi_ge/wal_mart_rice

" Sam's Club, Costco limit rice purchases as prices rise

By MARCUS KABEL, AP Business Writer Wed Apr 23, 7:13 PM ET

The two biggest U.S. warehouse retail chains are limiting how much rice customers can buy because of what Sam's Club, a division of Wal-Mart Stores Inc., called on Wednesday "recent supply and demand trends."
ADVERTISEMENT

The broader chain of Wal-Mart stores has no plans to limit food purchases, however.

The move comes as U.S. rice futures hit a record high amid global food inflation, although one rice expert said the warehouse chains may be reacting less to any shortages than to stockpiling by restaurants and small stores.

Sam's Club followed Seattle-based Costco Wholesale Corp., which put limits in at least some stores on bulk rice purchases."

When they start telling Americans they can't buy as much as they want where they want and when they want...looooook out!  I'm old enough to remember the Cabbage Patch Kids riots.  Wait'll the riots start over real cabbage!
:o

I've heard that there is technology to make cars run on water but the governments are paying these scientists to keep quiet.

I've also heard palm oil being refined to work as petrol.

Just my 2 cents.

I've heard that there is technology to make cars run on water but the governments are paying these scientists to keep quiet.


That urban legend/rumor has been around for years, don't believe it. Imagine the effect on our already polluted and dimmished water supply if this were true and we started using water for fuel. ::)

But, so that you know, yes you can make cars run on water, its called STEAM and we've been there before. Stanley Steamers ruled the auto industry before Henry Ford did, but theres that nasty problem of waiting for the water to get hot/boil, exploding boilers and then, what are you going to use to heat that water with to get it to boil? Gasoline/Oil/Wood? Same problem, different means of application.

I've also heard palm oil being refined to work as petrol.

Just my 2 cents.

Squeeze any distillate enough by compression in a piston engine, and it will ignite. There are plenty of very high compression diesels on the road right now that will and can run on vegetable oil with little conversion. Have you priced a gallon of vegetable, corn, baby (how many babies do you have to squeeze to get any amount of baby oil?  :D) or any other "oil"? Just as, if not more expensive than gas now, and using it for fuel would drive the cost up and probably drive food costs up as ethanol has...

Heck there is a French company that has made cars that run on compressed air! The cost of compressed air tanks and filling them is prohibitive, at least for now...

But none of that is a consideration or a real alternative, we are all too dependent on oil and any alternative to it will be a hard gasoline hangover for us to deal with...any change over is going to be fraught with issues.

And don't believe the oil companies are going to let us off that easily...

Thanks for enlightening me. I'll admit I'm a bit ignorant to the scientifics.

When they start telling Americans they can't buy as much as they want where they want and when they want...looooook out!  I'm old enough to remember the Cabbage Patch Kids riots.  Wait'll the riots start over real cabbage!
:o
dude, i understand being flip but seriously, if they're rationing rice at walmart.... that's a bad sign for reasons having nothing to do with cutting on box stores or anything like that. it really gets me thinking we're all headed for the final showdown. the last roundup! might as well smoke em if you got em. :(

you know what i'm gonna do with my final hours? i'm gonna listen to lots of black sabbath.

In the final days, I'm praying and fasting.

And when Jesus comes, I'll be ready.

That urban legend/rumor has been around for years, don't believe it. Imagine the effect on our already polluted and dimmished water supply if this were true and we started using water for fuel. ::)


You're a little of the mark here pal. Vehicles can and have been made to run on hydrogen which is of course the main component of water. In fuel cell cars, hydrogen reacts with oxygen to form water (the by-product) and electricity (the fuel).
In combustion hydrogen engines, hydrogen works in the same way as gasoline, essentially by being burned it produces torque.
As it stands, the Department of Energy predicts fuel cells with 100Kw of energy by 2010, for around $3000. That's about 135bhp, so two cells together = around 270bhp. For $6000. What you have to remember though is that a fuel cell has a life of around 5000 hours now, but as we speak there are already trials ongoing in Iceland (where the whole of their public transport fleet is run on Hydrogen) with cells lasting 30,000 hours and with a slightly larger power output. Assuming you used your car for 2 hours per day, a fuel cell with a lifetime of 30,000 hours would last somewhere in the region of 40 years. Obviously this would be a top end prediction but regardless, even powerful cars could be run on fuel cells. All you need is additional cells. If 2 cells generate around 270bhp, then 4 cells generate 540bhp.. so on and so forth.

The other alternative is quite simply the electric car. The batteries used to store a charge are increasing in capacity and overall power output every day, quite literally. It was just a few years ago that you were lucky if you could make an electric car run for more than a couple of hours, now they've successfully completed several hundred miles trips on one charge.
Due to the simple method of charging the infrastructure to recharge them on the go would be a cake walk to fit in place.. instead of huge oil companies we'd simply see huge electricity companies. However, electricity can be generated by much more efficient, greenhouse gas free and replaceable methods, all of which are contributing an increasingly large amount of power to the grid. Solar power, geothermal energy and wind power are all replaceable and greenhouse gas free. Not only that, but with the new ideas for fuels (anti-matter anybody) that are emerging, most are thousands of times easier to control in the space of a power plant than trying to harness their power in a vehicle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWGsnW_NnxE

hold me mommy.

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/political-pictures-high-prices-gas-pump.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWGsnW_NnxE

hold me mommy.

Should I watch that, or will it just make me crazy mad?
>:( ???

As it stands, the Department of Energy predicts fuel cells with 100Kw of energy by 2010, for around $3000. That's about 135bhp, so two cells together = around 270bhp. For $6000. 


135bhp's more than enough to keep any vehicle running at 60-80mph.  Use an ICE (or better yet, a Tesla-style beefy battery bank) to accelerate from 0-60, and the $3000 fuel cell to maintain speed on the highway.  5000 hours is 300,000 highway miles; most such vehicles will rust away (or the rubber suspension parts will dry up from old age and fail) long before the (replaceable) fuel cell starts to fail. 

I'm slightly skeptical (read: cautiously optimistic, but my emphasis is on "cautious" to the point that I've never owned shares of fuel cell companies such as Ballard Power) on fuel cells for other reasons, but longevity and power aren't either of 'em.

wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Bw7RGwYPY

wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Bw7RGwYPY

I agree with the statement, but that boy's gotta work on his rhythm!
8)