and hillary clinton and john mccain find themselves on the same side once again.  ::)

so this is what he said.

***

"He said jobs had been disappearing in small towns in Pennsylvania and across the Midwest for 25 years with nothing to replace them.

"It's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations," he said.

***

he's not saying everyone turns to religion, guns, etc., for these reasons. he's saying that there's a lot of frustration in workaday america becuase real wages have been stagnant for decades, because factories are closing up and moving to mexico, etc., and are becoming in some instances more isolationist in their sentiment. makes sense to me. all this genuflecting by the mass media over this strikes me as totally silly.

and i notice on friday we hear once again that the bush administration sanctioned torture on more than one occasion. man, it'll be a nice day when the media get their act together and quit getting hystserical about goofy slips of the tongue that dont matter and start actually covering what's going on in this country.

If Hillary Clinton said the same thing would you feel the same way?

If Hillary Clinton said the same thing would you feel the same way?
absolutely. or mccain. i just don't see any elitist content in what he said, it strikes me as completely innocuous. i mean, do you think middle america isn't bitter? or doesn't have any reason to be? i really find this to be like grasping at straws, just trying to find anything to try and stick on him.

The rich are getting richer, the middle class hanging on by ripped out fingernails, the poor are losing all around.  That is what this administration has given us, and Obama is right, I see it every day.


www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/04/13/following_the_money/

lol.

"An Error Has Occurred!
You can't report your own post to the moderator, that doesn't make sense!"

i accidentally put this in PPP, it should be in politics. i'm not sure if i can move it, i'll look around and see if there's a way.

lol.

"An Error Has Occurred!
You can't report your own post to the moderator, that doesn't make sense!"

i accidentally put this in PPP, it should be in politics. i'm not sure if i can move it, i'll look around and see if there's a way.
I had a feeling you did, but as it is a political subject I wish not to comment on it.

What did he mean clinging to guns?the majority of peopleI know that are lower or middle class have guns because they hunt,I'm sure there is a small percential that have them for protection.

What did he mean clinging to guns?the majority of peopleI know that are lower or middle class have guns because they hunt,I'm sure there is a small percential that have them for protection.
my guess is he's talking about the anti-government militia types, i dunno, people talk about hunting and most people own guns for hunting, yes, but then when debate about the second amendment comes up the first thing folks talk about is that they need guns to defend against the government. so there's a bit where the pro-gun argument gets kinda mercurial. it's not clear whether they're defending the right to hunt or defending against the government. the argument seems to shift around a lot.

You can see Obama really being hurt by this.  From the Drudge Report today:

SHOCK POLL: CLINTON TAKES 20-POINT LEAD IN PA...

http://www.drudgereport.com

http://i26.tinypic.com/4qso7m.jpg

You can see Obama really being hurt by this.  From the Drudge Report today:

SHOCK POLL: CLINTON TAKES 20-POINT LEAD IN PA...

http://www.drudgereport.com

http://i26.tinypic.com/4qso7m.jpg
this is the same group that had bush at 19% not too long ago.

zogby actually has him closing the gap to 4% as of yesterday.

http://www.presidentpolls2008.com/

we'll see if there's any fallout from this. i still think the critics seem to be having trouble making the "elitist" tag stick on a candidate who's gotten far more in small donations than either hillary worth-$100-million clinton or john big-corporate-money mccain, but we'll see. i predict a minor bump in obama's polls that will go away pretty quickly -- but the pastor wright thing had much more potential to damage him and it doesn't seem to have had any effect on the polls at all, despite the mainstream media's constant harping on it. i just think people are heartily sick of this gotcha stuff. but again, we'll see.

gallup shows he's holding steady too. if anything it looks like HRC's actually lost a point.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106504/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Numbers-Holding-Strong.aspx

funny if you look at some of the other polls on that site. 15% say the country's going in the right direction, other polls show a persistent sense of economic gloom, a scarcity of decent jobs, consumer pessimism... and yet we're supposed to be shocked when the national mood is perceived as "bitter." sounds like obama was just speaking the truth to me, and maybe most people know it.

What Obama said was true.  It wasn't a politically smart move, but it was honest.

Let's face it...  most people are idiots, and one of the most obviously idiotic groups are rednecks.

Yeah the small towners will be up all hours remembering this one..in fact, they'll never write a letter of complaint to the higher offices again to hear back they'll have their complaints of the horse hitches on the road blocking the view of their mailbox. 

Next!

I think Pennsylvania will put Obama and Clinton about 50 delegates apart rather than 100.

i know i'm biased, but i still think this will have a negligible effect. i have yet to have it explained to me clearly why this is a big deal. or what the hell the media is going on about it for. i guess this is all they can find to pin on him. meanwhile hillary's making an ass out of herself talking about all the duck hunting she's doing and throwing down shots to act like she's down with the common man, and she actually is pretty much looking like a fool. if folks are smart they'll see through her little act.

i know i'm biased, but i still think this will have a negligible effect. i have yet to have it explained to me clearly why this is a big deal. or what the hell the media is going on about it for. i guess this is all they can find to pin on him. meanwhile hillary's making an ass out of herself talking about all the duck hunting she's doing and throwing down shots to act like she's down with the common man, and she actually is pretty much looking like a fool. if folks are smart they'll see through her little act.


Apparently she got booed in PA yesterday for going on about Obama's comments. Her lackeys are saying that she got booed because there were Obama plants in the crowd.

Apparently she got booed in PA yesterday for going on about Obama's comments. Her lackeys are saying that she got booed because there were Obama plants in the crowd.
obama also got a surprise endorsement from the pittsburgh steelers owner, i'm reading. that probably won't hurt.

i really think is goign to backfire on hillary mccainton in a big way.

Race is not the taboo in American politics, class is.

Obama was saying Americans blame the wrong people for their pain.  And they do.  Obama isn't selling the same old pious platitudes.  We can't afford to ignore the class divide anymore.  The more so-called "middle America" throws a tizzy about what Obama said, the more they prove his point.  I don't even think Obama's words were ill-chosen. 

OK, so you have a gun and you're not bitter.  You go to church and you're not bitter.  Stop taking everything so doggone literally! The big "wedge" issues continue to be God, guns, and abortion and not the ongoing destruction of the middle class. 

It's like Winston Churchill saying "All I have to offer is blood, toil, sweat and tears" and you saying, "Dude, I don't want no blood and sweat, this is a new shirt!"
:D

i just gave him another fifty bucks. i really shouldn't.  :-[ this whole ridiculous "bitter" thing makes me so damn mad, though.

Apparently she got booed in PA yesterday for going on about Obama's comments. Her lackeys are saying that she got booed because there were Obama plants in the crowd.


I knew my Obama T-shirt was a dead give away. :D

Race is not the taboo in American politics, class is.

Obama was saying Americans blame the wrong people for their pain.  And they do.  Obama isn't selling the same old pious platitudes.  We can't afford to ignore the class divide anymore.  The more so-called "middle America" throws a tizzy about what Obama said, the more they prove his point.  I don't even think Obama's words were ill-chosen. 

OK, so you have a gun and you're not bitter.  You go to church and you're not bitter.  Stop taking everything so doggone literally! The big "wedge" issues continue to be God, guns, and abortion and not the ongoing destruction of the middle class. 

It's like Winston Churchill saying "All I have to offer is blood, toil, sweat and tears" and you saying, "Dude, I don't want no blood and sweat, this is a new shirt!"
:D


Thing is, they're NOT the ones making a big deal out of it. The media and McHillary are.


I knew my Obama T-shirt was a dead give away. :D


;D

The media and McHillary are.

ah yes, great minds think alike, i was amusing myself on the bus ride home today thinking of different ways to fuse hillary and john mccain's names together.

When people get screwed over in any area of life, they're often "bitter."  I'm not going to begrudge anybody for feeling "bitter after seven years of Dubya.  I empathize with you feeling bitter, I just don't get why you'd vote the same old doojbags in office who do the same old BS! Hillary said Obama was elitist...so I'm gonna vote for McCain!  Elitist?  Like you could never associate Hillary or McCain with being "elitist," come on now!  Jon Stewart said something like, you're running for President...if you don't want to be "elite" wtf are you doing there?
::)

i just gave him another fifty bucks. i really shouldn't.  :-[ this whole ridiculous "bitter" thing makes me so damn mad, though.


You sound bitter. 

ah yes, great minds think alike, i was amusing myself on the bus ride home today thinking of different ways to fuse hillary and john mccain's names together.


Jillary
McClinton

You sound bitter. 

Hi Howard!

Hi Howard!


?  ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJJk7H-TSRk

ha! i really love that show. they should replace chris matthews' pathetic ass with this stuff. :P

meanwhile hillary's making an ass out of herself talking about all the duck hunting she's doing and throwing down shots to act like she's down with the common man, and she actually is pretty much looking like a fool. if folks are smart they'll see through her little act.


"If folks are smart".

If that's all we've got to keep her from the Presidency, I might as well start packing my bags for Canada now.

Then again, who am I kidding.  It all ends up looking like this, doesn't it?

http://www.pbase.com/image/77389068/original.jpg

What's that I hear...? Everyone in PA is voting for Hellary 'See You Next Tuesday' Clinton.

What's that I hear...? Everyone in PA is voting for Hellary 'See You Next Tuesday' Clinton.


If Govemor Ed Rendell (known to some as "Fast Eddie") had his way everyone would.  However not everyone agrees with him and the party machine, so Obama has a chance.  If Hillary should become President, Rendell's wife, who is a Federal Court Justice would be nominated for a Supreme Court seat.  There's more going on with the PA primary than people realize.  BTW, I live in PA and I'm not voting for Hillary.

If Govemor Ed Rendell (known to some as "Fast Eddie") had his way everyone would.  However not everyone agrees with him and the party machine, so Obama has a chance.  If Hillary should become President, Rendell's wife, who is a Federal Court Justice would be nominated for a Supreme Court seat.  There's more going on with the PA primary than people realize.  BTW, I live in PA and I'm not voting for Hillary.


Rendellian politics are certainly a scourge upon the fair citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

Many of Eddie's cronies, such as former rep Frank Lagrotta, have been nabbed by Johnny Law for their corruption while in political office.  And there are more indictments to come.  I expect Mike Veon to get "cuffed and stuffed" before the year is out.  I wonder if anybody will flip on Rendell?  If you look at Lagrotta he's been singing like a canary to the cops ever since they nabbed him for the ghost payroll stuff.

What's that I hear...? Everyone in PA is voting for Hellary 'See You Next Tuesday' Clinton.
das cuz dey bittah.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080416/pl_afp/usvote_080416125721;_ylt=AmMUq6TL5.KzYTIm8u2MqUYb.3QA

HEY JILLARY MCCLAINTOCK. SEE THE WRITING ON THE WALL ALREADY, WOODYA?

"Polls show Obama steady despite elitism flap by Stephen Collinson
23 minutes ago



PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania, April 16, 2008 (AFP) - Opinion polls showed Barack Obama riding out a row over claims he is "elitist" as he headed into Wednesday's Democratic debate clash with rival US presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton.

Despite days of attacks by Clinton over Obama's depiction of some smalltown Americans as "bitter," the Illinois senator avoided an immediate slump in his ratings in Pennsylvania, which holds its party primary contest on April 22.

Other polling data had Obama ahead in the next states looming in the tense Democratic race, Indiana and North Carolina, which go to the polls on May 6."

.
.
.

"A Washington Post/ABC News poll, meanwhile, found that Democrats nationally see Obama as twice as electable as Clinton -- in a sharp reversal of earlier trends -- and want to see him become their nominee by 51 to 41 percent.

Obama leads Clinton in pledged delegates, total nominating contests won and the popular vote going into the final stretch of the Democratic race. "

Whenever I hear Obama accused of being "elitist", I cannot help but think that the accusers are REALLY wanting to say that he is "uppity".

Does anybody else here get that feeling? ???

Whenever I hear Obama accused of being "elitist", I cannot help but think that the accusers are REALLY wanting to say that he is "uppity".

Does anybody else here get that feeling? ???

Yes.

"Elitist" means:
1. Doesn't go to church or goes to the wrong kind of church.
2. Is Ivy League-educated and talks like he learned something there.
3. Doesn't listen to country music.
4. Is gay, might be gay, might support gay causes, might not even hate gays.
5. Is likely to raise capital gains taxes.
:P

But the thing I'm wondering is...ok so he assumes that people are bitter from small towns, given that that is what he thinks, what does he think everybody else is with the economy, the war that's gone on way too long with way too much suffering and to a government that doesn't seem to represent anybody but corporations?

I'll probably get stomped off for that because it's hard for me to make a clear argument (I'm just not as smart as all the rest of you folks- that's why I tend to stay out of the political arena messages...)  To me, I think the whole country is bitter. 

One thing I want to ask though is, given that that is how he thinks small town America is, is that excuse enough (for him) to just discount anybody's opinion that is from a small town?  Yes, our economic climate has been hurting since many of the mines/mills/factories/farms have been going under since the mid 80s....what is his plan for small towns to help them... or is being bitter a good enough excuse to ignore us even more as other politicians seem to have done for decades?

Smart? Who's smart?
;)

I'm afraid I'm not seeing where Obama is discounting the opinions of citizens from small towns.

Whenever I hear Obama accused of being "elitist", I cannot help but think that the accusers are REALLY wanting to say that he is "uppity".

Does anybody else here get that feeling? ???
there was actually a republican house member or someone recently who called bho "uppity" and had to apologize for it. yeah, i think a part of that subtext is there -- particularly when it's coming from hillary "100-million-dollar" clinton -- but that whole thing is so hideous no one really wants to go there, i'm sure barack won't make that point in public cuz there's no way to really do it politely. 

Who won tonight?

there was actually a republican house member or someone recently who called bho "uppity" and had to apologize for it. yeah, i think a part of that subtext is there -- particularly when it's coming from hillary "100-million-dollar" clinton -- but that whole thing is so hideous no one really wants to go there, i'm sure barack won't make that point in public cuz there's no way to really do it politely. 

Oh yeah, well Elton John says you're not for Hillary because you're a misogynist!  I thought Sir Elton would be thrilled at the prospect of a black president.  Then I saw his red lenses and realized...Sir Elton thinks Obama is white!
:D

Who won tonight?

McCain.

Smart? Who's smart?
;)


Oh you guys know who you are!  ;D


I'm afraid I'm not seeing where Obama is discounting the opinions of citizens from small towns.


I was just wondering, I guess, why did he even have to say specifically that small town people are bitter?  Was it in answer to him (by someone else) about how he feels about the nation's small town residents?  I guess I'm kinda stuck in the rut of why single out small town?  I think alot of people are bitter about how the country is and has been for going for awhile now.  Not just us poor country folk.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVC4JUg9A9A

oh oh! :D

I was just wondering, I guess, why did he even have to say specifically that small town people are bitter?   Was it in answer to him (by someone else) about how he feels about the nation's small town residents?   I guess I'm kinda stuck in the rut of why single out small town?  I think alot of people are bitter about how the country is and has been for going for awhile now.  Not just us poor country folk.   ;D


I think he just did that because he was trying to reach out to Pennsylvania and all the areas that used to be big factory/mills/what have you centers, but now they're reduced to small towns because of the work drying up, mills shutting down, stuff being outsourced, etc. I don't think he has a vendetta against small town people, considering he lived in a lot of small towns. ;)

I am with the group that thinks he laid a truth out there that McClinton couldn't handle, so they jumped all over it and made a big stink about his choice of words.

I don't know if I explained that well, either. I suck at politics. ;D

it's that he believes factory towns vote values issues because they don't think voting on economics works anymore, because democrat, republican, whichever side they vote, they're still seeing the viable jobs go overseas. so they go "values voter" and vote religion and guns thinking if you live a moral, upstanding life on a personal level, things are bound to get better somehow. at least that's my theory. and i think that's what obama was trying to get at.

it's that he believes factory towns vote values issues because they don't think voting on economics works anymore, because democrat, republican, whichever side they vote, they're still seeing the viable jobs go overseas. so they go "values voter" and vote religion and guns thinking if you live a moral, upstanding life on a personal level, things are bound to get better somehow. at least that's my theory. and i think that's what obama was trying to get at.


What he said. Tia explained it a hell of a lot better than I did. ;D

it's that he believes factory towns vote values issues because they don't think voting on economics works anymore, because democrat, republican, whichever side they vote, they're still seeing the viable jobs go overseas. so they go "values voter" and vote religion and guns thinking if you live a moral, upstanding life on a personal level, things are bound to get better somehow. at least that's my theory. and i think that's what obama was trying to get at.

I ain't running for political office so I don't have to be gentle:

"Values voters" don't vote against their "economic" interests because they've weighed the pros and cons of "values" versus "economics."

'Nuff said.
:-X

I think alot of people vote for certain things just because they don't really have the interest in doing research (because there is SO much stuff out there to wade through) on everybody that runs for office.  There are alot of people that vote just because Hillary is a woman or because race matters to them not because of how the particular candidate feels about a certain subject.  I think alot of candidates change their speeches or opinions tailored to whatever audiance they are speaking to on a particular day.

I know alot of people don't like discussing politics because the arguments get so heated and can turn nasty at a drop of a hat. 

For me, and I probably should be ashamed, but with when Ohio voted there were alot of people running for local judges and I hadn't heard of any of them.  So I just picked the women and the rest I just picked who had pleasant sounding names.  I don't think I'm alone in that.

I think alot of small town people vote the way their parents do, there are small town residents that leave the small town for big city colleges that may end up getting politically involved so they may form different opinions then their parents.  But for the most part, I think politics aren't really big on the minds of many small town residents.  They have hard enough time keeping food on the table, keeping up mortgage payments, and trying to get along with one another.

Maybe that's too simplified, I dunno. 

I think alot of people vote for certain things just because they don't really have the interest in doing research (because there is SO much stuff out there to wade through) on everybody that runs for office.  There are alot of people that vote just because Hillary is a woman or because race matters to them not because of how the particular candidate feels about a certain subject.  I think alot of candidates change their speeches or opinions tailored to whatever audiance they are speaking to on a particular day.

I know alot of people don't like discussing politics because the arguments get so heated and can turn nasty at a drop of a hat. 

For me, and I probably should be ashamed, but with when Ohio voted there were alot of people running for local judges and I hadn't heard of any of them.  So I just picked the women and the rest I just picked who had pleasant sounding names.  I don't think I'm alone in that.

I think alot of small town people vote the way their parents do, there are small town residents that leave the small town for big city colleges that may end up getting politically involved so they may form different opinions then their parents.  But for the most part, I think politics aren't really big on the minds of many small town residents.  They have hard enough time keeping food on the table, keeping up mortgage payments, and trying to get along with one another.

Maybe that's too simplified, I dunno. 
in 2004 i remember going and voting pretty much figuring i'd vote nader if he was on the ballot, kerry if nader wasn't, and that's about all the preparation i did. then i get in the voting booth and answer the requisite questions about the big race and then i get peppered with all these questions about local bond issues! "do you authorize the state to allocate 175,000 dollars to issue a bond to perform so and so and such and such..." i had totally no familiarity with any of these issues and they didn't give me an abstain option -- i had to vote yay or nay. so i figured caution was the better part of valor and figured ok, if i dont know what any of these thing are i should probably not vote for them. just in the interest of first, do no harm. later i mentioned this to a friend of mine, and he said, "you know, mike, i think you just became that guy who informed people wish wouldn't vote."  ;D and he's right, i could have been voting to authorize the foreclosure of children's hospitals and the total cutting off of all funding related to joy and happiness, and hell if i woulda known.

so yeah, it's tricky, is my point, and it's hard to be informed and most people don't have the time. when it comes to national and worldwide issues i feel like i do a passable job but when it comes to local politics (which most of the really politically informed folks i know tell me is the thing i should REALLY care about) i know precisely one half of a tiny dick. it's sad but true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPBUJ91Ha48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPBUJ91Ha48

Nope.  That dog won't hunt.  Too many polysyllabic words and too much abstract thought.  Can you boil it down to a Hannity-esque catch phrase?
:D

I ain't running for political office so I don't have to be gentle:

"Values voters" don't vote against their "economic" interests because they've weighed the pros and cons of "values" versus "economics."

'Nuff said.
:-X


The economy means taxes, taxes means helping people who either A) on welfare or B) helping the Atheist culture of Death and Socialism.  Neither are exactly their cup of tea.

What did he mean clinging to guns?the majority of peopleI know that are lower or middle class have guns because they hunt,I'm sure there is a small percential that have them for protection.


You don't live in the Mid-West do you?

He hit the nail on the head. Jobs have been vanishing from our part of the country for years and nothing is coming in to replace them. What do you think the Reagan Realignment was all about?

We're beat down, we're bitter and we're about sick of it.

You don't live in the Mid-West do you?

He hit the nail on the head. Jobs have been vanishing from our part of the country for years and nothing is coming in to replace them. What do you think the Reagan Realignment was all about?

We're beat down, we're bitter and we're about sick of it.

Uh oh, I hear a Springsteen number coming on...

(mumble mumble mumble) on the dark side of tooooown (mumble mumble mumble)
:D

I ain't running for political office so I don't have to be gentle:

"Values voters" don't vote against their "economic" interests because they've weighed the pros and cons of "values" versus "economics."

'Nuff said.
:-X


But, don't they? "Values voters" tend to vote Republican. Isn't that voting against your economic interest since they are usually the first hit?

But, don't they? "Values voters" tend to vote Republican. Isn't that voting against your economic interest since they are usually the first hit?


It's not all about economix.  Here in Picksburgh, where Dems outnumber Repubs about 3 to 1, we have plenty of values voters who vote Democrat.  An anti-abortion, anti-gay-marriage ballot initiative would win hands-down, 80% to 20% in this bastion of the Democratic Party.

But, don't they? "Values voters" tend to vote Republican. Isn't that voting against your economic interest since they are usually the first hit?

If everybody voted their purses the GOP would be out of business tomorrow.  The GOP speaks for the economic interests of the corporations and the super-rich.  This was not always the case, but it has become increasingly so over the past quarter century.  The way the overcome this problem is fashion strawmen out of gays, guns, and God and get so-called "middle America" to vote for the party more likely to hurt them than to help them.

i think the point everyone is missing is that "values voters" tend to believe that if they vote values, economic matters actually WILL improve. god will smile on the nation. it's the exact reason why people say grace -- i mean a lot of people do it out of ritual, but some people really do say grace before a meal because they really think god is the reason that food is there. rather than a massive agricultural, cargo transport, and retail food distribution enterprise.

it's also the reason why when the easter islanders cut down most of their trees and ran the risk of starvation, they... cut down the rest of them to build bigger statues to the gods they worshiped.

i think the point everyone is missing is that "values voters" tend to believe that if they vote values, economic matters actually WILL improve. god will smile on the nation. it's the exact reason why people say grace -- i mean a lot of people do it out of ritual, but some people really do say grace before a meal because they really think god is the reason that food is there. rather than a massive agricultural, cargo transport, and retail food distribution enterprise.

it's also the reason why when the easter islanders cut down most of their trees and ran the risk of starvation, they... cut down the rest of them to build bigger statues to the gods they worshiped.

And like Easter Island, people in 1000 years are going to stumble onto the ruins of Washington DC and say, "What the hell happened here?"
:D

And like Easter Island, people in 1000 years are going to stumble onto the ruins of Washington DC and say, "What the hell happened here?"
:D
naw, i've been reading "the world without us" and it turns out the statues at easter island will last way longer because they were made out of solid rock. the manhattan skyline will basically be topsoil in a thousand years. ;D

if we're lucky enough people will survive to sustain some kinda wacky oral history of us and we'll be a weird, crazy rumor like the continent of atlantis.

naw, i've been reading "the world without us" and it turns out the statues at easter island will last way longer because they were made out of solid rock. the manhattan skyline will basically be topsoil in a thousand years. ;D

if we're lucky enough people will survive to sustain some kinda wacky oral history of us and we'll be a weird, crazy rumor like the continent of atlantis.

OK then they'll stumble across Mount Rushmore and say: "Who the hell are these ass**les?"  Oh, wait a minute, that's the 8th grade bus tour from Akron!
:D