So I'm not the only one who thinks recognition may not be the best ideal.  Thank you Henk.


Well, we (i.e the Dutch government) haven't recognized Kosovo...yet. And we won't until we know how the Kosovan government is gonna deal with minorities in Kosovo. We want some sort of guarantee, I guess...and then we'll have a toast.





...weird. All of sudden I'm having a déjà vu.












http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/17/785141/Karremans.jpg


















...Nah...we've learned our lesson. I hope.

Well, we (i.e the Dutch government) haven't recognized Kosovo...yet. And we won't until we know how the Kosovan government is gonna deal with minorities in Kosovo. We want some sort of guarantee, I guess...and then we'll have a toast.





...weird. All of sudden I'm having a déjà vu.












http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/17/785141/Karremans.jpg


















...Nah...we've learned our lesson. I hope.


Exactly.  I can see all kinds of atrocities happening now that the majority has declared independence.  Along with independence comes a notion of not having to answer to anyone.  I just don't like it.

Exactly.  I can see all kinds of atrocities happening now that the majority has declared independence.  Along with independence comes a notion of not having to answer to anyone.  I just don't like it.


It's hard to tell what's going to happen next. Serbs will flee from Kosovo, most likely...There'll be talk of war and indivisibility of Serbia...
What will Russia do? They'll back up Serbia, no doubt - but will they intervene, and how? Let's hope Russia can negotiate before another war breaks out. As much as I detest Putin and his ideoligies, it's the best chance we have. Perhaps the only chance...

But no matter what or when or how, we'll end up with a second "Chinese Taipei" situation: a country recognized by the entire world minus three or four countries.

It's hard to tell what's going to happen next. Serbs will flee from Kosovo, most likely...There'll be talk of war and indivisibility of Serbia...
What will Russia do? They'll back up Serbia, no doubt - but will they intervene, and how? Let's hope Russia can negotiate before another war breaks out. As much as I detest Putin and his ideoligies, it's the best chance we have. Perhaps the only chance...

But no matter what or when or how, we'll end up with a second "Chinese Taipei" situation: a country recognized by the entire world minus three or four countries.


I think if pushed into it Russia would send a few ground troops.  Kosovo is not fully established so it may be easier to negotiate.  It would be much harder if Kosovo were an established economic and military power.  Putin may be the only one with enough back bone to deal with it properly. 

I think supporting Kosovo's independence is a good thing.  There comes a time when borders must be redrawn, and Kosovo's independence has been a long time coming.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.  Remember the U.S. had troops there.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc151/datdarnkid/images.jpg

Kosovo's flag


This is the flag their parliament has adopted.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Flag_of_Kosovo.svg/100px-Flag_of_Kosovo.svg.png

Personally, I am distrustful of any separatist movement anywhere, today more than ever. But unilateral declarations are even more dodgy. A parliament shouldn't have the power to do that. They should put it to a referendum first. In 1990, the last time they tried to declare independence, they at least had a referendum on it with 98% support. That's a supermandate. 

I think supporting Kosovo's independence is a good thing.  There comes a time when borders must be redrawn, and Kosovo's independence has been a long time coming.


While putting the lives of minorities that live there on the line. :P

This is the flag their parliament has adopted.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Flag_of_Kosovo.svg/100px-Flag_of_Kosovo.svg.png

Personally, I am distrustful of any separatist movement anywhere, today more than ever. But unilateral declarations are even more dodgy. A parliament shouldn't have the power to do that. They should put it to a referendum first. In 1990, the last time they tried to declare independence, they at least had a referendum on it with 98% support. That's a supermandate. 


The old flag has more of an "old World charm".

While putting the lives of minorities that live there on the line. :P

Perhaps, but it's hard for me to sympathize with Serbs.

Perhaps, but it's hard for me to sympathize with Serbs.


I heard Serbs have torched a few UN check points.

Serbs are pretty rowdy, but they're asking for an @$$kicking again if they keep this up.  I'm not that much of an interventionist, but I think the international community will stand for keeping them in line if they cause too much trouble.

Serbs are pretty rowdy, but they're asking for an @$$kicking again if they keep this up.  I'm not that much of an interventionist, but I think the international community will stand for keeping them in line if they cause too much trouble.


I sympathise with the Serbs living in Kosovo, and also a bit with the Serbian government. The unilateral secession of a jurisdiction is not acceptable unless proper negotiation is pursued to its full extent first. That means a clearly worded referendum on the issue, a clear majority, and negotiation with the higher levels of government. Now, if the higher government refuses to negotiate, then unilateral declarations become an option. But the authority declaring independence haas to be ready for any possible reprisals.

If Quebec (or any other province) seceded unilaterally and illegally under Canadian law, and any country recognised its independence, I would be pissed. And that's how I can sympathise with the Serbs.   

So would many Americans be if a state decided to secede unilaterally and its independence were recognised.

I sympathise with the Serbs living in Kosovo, and also a bit with the Serbian government. The unilateral secession of a jurisdiction is not acceptable unless proper negotiation is pursued to its full extent first. That means a clearly worded referendum on the issue, a clear majority, and negotiation with the higher levels of government. Now, if the higher government refuses to negotiate, then unilateral declarations become an option. But the authority declaring independence haas to be ready for any possible reprisals.

If Quebec (or any other province) seceded unilaterally and illegally under Canadian law, and any country recognised its independence, I would be pissed. And that's how I can sympathise with the Serbs.   

So would many Americans be if a state decided to secede unilaterally and its independence were recognised.


I'd say 98% is a pretty clear majority (the % that voted in favor of secession the last time they held a referendum).

You are correct about most Americans being against a state seceding, but I support most secessionist movements, including the creation of a Palestinian state and the joining of Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland.  I also support the creation of Kurdistan and Baluchistan.  All borders should be drawn along ethnic lines, if the majority of the ethnicities involved prefer to have a separate nation.

I'd say 98% is a pretty clear majority (the % that voted in favor of secession the last time they held a referendum).

You are correct about most Americans being against a state seceding, but I support most secessionist movements, including the creation of a Palestinian state and the joining of Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland.  I also support the creation of Kurdistan and Baluchistan.  All borders should be drawn along ethnic lines, if the majority of the ethnicities involved prefer to have a separate nation.



You're right about 98% being a clear majority, but that was 18 years ago. I'm sure if they had held another one they would have had a majority, but they didn't, which means they didn't follow the proper channels. Also, Kosovo is/was part of the country of Serbia, which means the elected representatives of citizens in other Serbian provinces deserve their say in the conditions of separation. They are losing a piece of their country.

As far as all borders being drawn across ethnic lines, that's just silly. The world has thousands of languages and ethnicities. Imagine every one of them having a nation-state. It isn't possible and it isn't desirable. Ethnic groups have to learn how to live together in the same country sometimes. Look at the Swiss. There are 4 languages and no separatism.

Your own country is a place where different ethnicities have come together to accept the same nationality. Of course, most of those ethnicities have given up their own cultures, but still. 

The Israelis and Palestinians will have to form a federal state one day with Jerusalem as their federal capital. It's the only way they'll both get what they want.

Northern Ireland will only be able to join the Republic when a clear majority of its citizens wants to. This does not exist at the moment. 

As far as all borders being drawn across ethnic lines, that's just silly. The world has thousands of languages and ethnicities. Imagine every one of them having a nation-state. It isn't possible and it isn't desirable. Ethnic groups have to learn how to live together in the same country sometimes. Look at the Swiss. There are 4 languages and no separatism.

On the other hand, look at Africa.  Much of the reason for the turmoil on that continent is a result of Europeans drawing up borders that didn't properly separate people by culture.  Instead, they went with geography and trade interests, and now several cultures have been split along national lines, which leads to warfare.

In short, there would be far less war in this world if more borders were drawn in accordance with cultural divisions.

On the other hand, look at Africa.  Much of the reason for the turmoil on that continent is a result of Europeans drawing up borders that didn't properly separate people by culture.  Instead, they went with geography and trade interests, and now several cultures have been split along national lines, which leads to warfare.

In short, there would be far less war in this world if more borders were drawn in accordance with cultural divisions.


Most borders are drawn that way, but they don't all have to be international borders.