They have trotted Laura Bush out and put her on the Charlie Rose show, talking Bush policies foreign and domestic.  It ain't gonna help. Oh and she even found a way to invoke Lincoln and his family tragedy(the death of his son in the white house)

They have trotted Laura Bush out and put her on the Charlie Rose show, talking Bush policies foreign and domestic.  It ain't gonna help. Oh and she even found a way to invoke Lincoln and his family tragedy(the death of his son in the white house)


I heard her on Fox News radio. (I was the passenger in a car) She tries to explain GWB as only a wife can.  She may try and invoke Lincoln but it ain't gonna work.

Can you say Stepford Wife?



Cat

Well...she probably couldn't make it worse!

Well...she probably couldn't make it worse!


In order to make sure that goal is obtained book her for an interview on Air America.

In order to make sure that goal is obtained book her for an interview on Air America.

Where Laura discussed their method of birth control (she gives him a stick of gum before bed.)
:P

Where Laura discussed their method of birth control (she gives him a stick of gum before bed.)
:P


Of course and how he wasn't really an alcoholic he just drank heavily at night. ::)

I can't stand that worthless sycophantic woman. I can't stand her accent either. I hate to hear her speak.

I noticed they didn't do any close ups.  I was looking, I think she may have had some work done on the face. She obviously dropped a few pounds.  I think she knows that the day the white house is in the rear view he may take up with Condi out on the lower 40.  ;D

I despise Lincoln, so the analogy works for me.

I despise Lincoln, so the analogy works for me.


Like I mentioned before, in the 1860's Lincoln was the worst president ever...in many people's opinions. Now look at him!

Like I mentioned before, in the 1860's Lincoln was the worst president ever...in many people's opinions. Now look at him!


Believe me... about half of the country still hates him and for good reason.

Believe me... about half of the country still hates him and for good reason.


Oh boo hoo.  The reason they still hate him is an unwillingness to admit that what their ancestors, and in many cases they themselves, did, and continue to do, is wrong.  The same people who celebrate Washington/Lee Day.  They never have forgiven him for being instrumental in taking away the priviledge (it was considered a right, but there wasn't anything right about it) that entitles them to sell, rape, murder, beat, and terrorize families.  The same people who brought you this

http://dese.mo.gov/moheritage/images/WeShallOvercome/WeShallOvercome79.jpg

http://dese.mo.gov/moheritage/images/WeShallOvercome/WeShallOvercome79.jpg


Gawd! That's a stark reminder of an ugly history.  To think there are tens of thousands who still resent the prohibition of those signs; tens of thousands still alive who remember segregation fondly, who hate Licoln, and are armed, and are watching Obama with disgust!
:o

Gawd! That's a stark reminder fo an ugly history.  To think there are tens of thousands who still resent the prohibition of those signs; tens of thousands still alive who remember, who hate Lincoln, and are armed, and are watching Obama with disgust!
:o


And have learned the doublespeak of "heritage" to gloss it all over.

And have learned the doublespeak of "heritage" to gloss it all over.

Heritage Foundation! ::)

Oh boo hoo.  The reason they still hate him is an unwillingness to admit that what their ancestors, and in many cases they themselves, did, and continue to do, is wrong.  The same people who celebrate Washington/Lee Day.  They never have forgiven him for being instrumental in taking away the priviledge (it was considered a right, but there wasn't anything right about it) that entitles them to sell, rape, murder, beat, and terrorize families.  The same people who brought you this

http://dese.mo.gov/moheritage/images/WeShallOvercome/WeShallOvercome79.jpg


Of course there are plenty of racists in America -- the same ones that refuse to vote for Obama because he's black, but there are also people cognizant of how most white people in the South did not own slaves.  Most Southern whites were far too poor to own slaves and lived only marginally better than slaves.  In addition to this, most whites and blacks in the North were practically slaves to the Northern factories.

So really, the Civil War wasn't about race or slavery.  It was about two camps of rich people that tried their best to exploit each other, while the poor toiled in the middle.  Eventually, this led to war, which involved the poor of both sides against each other.  Lincoln is nothing but a glorified carpetbagger, but the truly misguided still idolize him because of the Emancipation Proclamation.

Lincoln was also a powermonger among the Northerners and had several political opponents during the war silenced or exiled.  He suspended habeas corpus for a while as well.

To me, that makes him a tyrant, not a good president.

Lincoln is nothing but a glorified carpetbagger, but the truly misguided still idolize him because of the Emancipation Proclamation.




Lincoln is not idolized because of the Emancipation Proclamation, anyone with any present day scholarship would know that, though the slaves at the time did think him the second coming, and they can't be blamed for that.  Anyone with any education knows the shortcomings of the Proclamation, it didn't do what it was purported to do.  Lincoln was less of a powermonger than George Washington and Co, who fought their war for less noble reasons.  If you are going to hate Lincoln, and call those who have studied his achievement truly misguided, then you are going to have to afford that same attitude towards those who show any reverence at all to the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the framers of the Constitution.  I don't see that happening. 

The vilification is left for Lincoln who, regardless of what you may think of him, is the reason why we have the entity that is the United States of America. Where is the feeling against his southern counterparts? The owners with more than 20 slaves who were exempt from fighting? It is true most southerners did not own slaves, but the ones who did fight fought to preserve a system that allowed for the continuation of the privilege of owning slaves.  In the north being "practically a slave" was not being a slave, we can all allow the differences far exceed the the  term "practically".  The civil war may not have started out as a question of slavery, but it ended as one.  At the end of the war the balm of apartheid was used for 100 years to soothe the southern sensibility.  I truly do not believe that another person in his position would have been able to do, or would have done had he been able,  what he did in regards to the issue of slavery, and I thank his memory for it, for without him I would not be able to carry this conversation on with you today.

Lincoln is not idolized because of the Emancipation Proclamation, anyone with any present day scholarship would know that, though the slaves at the time did think him the second coming, and they can't be blamed for that.  Anyone with any education knows the shortcomings of the Proclamation, it didn't do what it was purported to do.  Lincoln was less of a powermonger than George Washington and Co, who fought their war for less noble reasons.  If you are going to hate Lincoln, and call those who have studied his achievement truly misguided, then you are going to have to afford that same attitude towards those who show any reverence at all to the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the framers of the Constitution.  I don't see that happening. 

The vilification is left for Lincoln who, regardless of what you may think of him, is the reason why we have the entity that is the United States of America. Where is the feeling against his southern counterparts? The owners with more than 20 slaves who were exempt from fighting? It is true most southerners did not own slaves, but the ones who did fight fought to preserve a system that allowed for the continuation of the privilege of owning slaves.  In the north being "practically a slave" was not being a slave, we can all allow the differences far exceed the the  term "practically".  The civil war may not have started out as a question of slavery, but it ended as one.  At the end of the war the balm of apartheid was used for 100 years to soothe the southern sensibility.  I truly do not believe that another person in his position would have been able to do, or would have done had he been able,  what he did in regards to the issue of slavery, and I thank his memory for it, for without him I would not be able to carry this conversation on with you today.


Well said.  Let's not forget the terrible conditions for workers in the North were part of the slavery defenders' fiction that slaves had it better than the free working class.  Indentured servants and migrant sweatshop workers didn't have it much better than slaves, but they were not owned as property like a horse or a plough merely because of the color of their skin, nor were they guaranteed never to rise above their status and they did not live with the knowledge that their children would never be anything other than slaves.  Quite different. 

I did find Lincoln-bashing popular within the identity politics of the university in which it was all but forbidden to suggest any white politician ever had good intentions for people of color.  Indeed, Lincoln did not start his political career as a crusader for the emancipation of the black man, nor do African-Americans owe everything to Lincoln; however, as Danoota points out, his importance in the ending of slavery must never be underestimated. 

Lincoln is not idolized because of the Emancipation Proclamation, anyone with any present day scholarship would know that, though the slaves at the time did think him the second coming, and they can't be blamed for that.  Anyone with any education knows the shortcomings of the Proclamation, it didn't do what it was purported to do.  Lincoln was less of a powermonger than George Washington and Co, who fought their war for less noble reasons.  If you are going to hate Lincoln, and call those who have studied his achievement truly misguided, then you are going to have to afford that same attitude towards those who show any reverence at all to the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the framers of the Constitution.  I don't see that happening. 

The vilification is left for Lincoln who, regardless of what you may think of him, is the reason why we have the entity that is the United States of America. Where is the feeling against his southern counterparts? The owners with more than 20 slaves who were exempt from fighting? It is true most southerners did not own slaves, but the ones who did fight fought to preserve a system that allowed for the continuation of the privilege of owning slaves.  In the north being "practically a slave" was not being a slave, we can all allow the differences far exceed the the  term "practically".  The civil war may not have started out as a question of slavery, but it ended as one.  At the end of the war the balm of apartheid was used for 100 years to soothe the southern sensibility.  I truly do not believe that another person in his position would have been able to do, or would have done had he been able,  what he did in regards to the issue of slavery, and I thank his memory for it, for without him I would not be able to carry this conversation on with you today.



I think Lincoln was not an abolitionist like Thaddeus Stevens, however he knew it was morally wrong.  The issue of slavery was just as volatile if not more so than abortion is today.  However for some people to say he was the Great Emancipator is a misgiving.  Owning another human being is not a right of a higher society.  I think he Lincoln saw what the effects of his decision was today.  He'd probably be astonished and pleased.

Lincoln is not idolized because of the Emancipation Proclamation, anyone with any present day scholarship would know that, though the slaves at the time did think him the second coming, and they can't be blamed for that.  Anyone with any education knows the shortcomings of the Proclamation, it didn't do what it was purported to do.  Lincoln was less of a powermonger than George Washington and Co, who fought their war for less noble reasons.  If you are going to hate Lincoln, and call those who have studied his achievement truly misguided, then you are going to have to afford that same attitude towards those who show any reverence at all to the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the framers of the Constitution.  I don't see that happening. 

The vilification is left for Lincoln who, regardless of what you may think of him, is the reason why we have the entity that is the United States of America. Where is the feeling against his southern counterparts? The owners with more than 20 slaves who were exempt from fighting? It is true most southerners did not own slaves, but the ones who did fight fought to preserve a system that allowed for the continuation of the privilege of owning slaves.  In the north being "practically a slave" was not being a slave, we can all allow the differences far exceed the the  term "practically".  The civil war may not have started out as a question of slavery, but it ended as one.  At the end of the war the balm of apartheid was used for 100 years to soothe the southern sensibility.  I truly do not believe that another person in his position would have been able to do, or would have done had he been able,  what he did in regards to the issue of slavery, and I thank his memory for it, for without him I would not be able to carry this conversation on with you today.



I'll put it this way...  I have a certain amount of respect for the Founding Fathers, but I would agree that they were ultimately rich white males mostly concerned about the rights of rich white males.  If I had been alive during the Revolution, I would've sided with the British, but that's another discussion altogether....

Let me post a few things that might be of interest to you....

Thomas DiLorenzo wrote:
Slave owners in the border states occupied by the U.S. Army were allowed to keep their slaves. Whenever any of Lincoln's generals, such as Gen. Fremont, took it upon themselves to emancipate some slaves early in the war he rebuffed them, reversed their decisions, and demoted them. The Emancipation Proclamation itself very specifically exempted all areas of the country that were controlled by the U.S. Army, guaranteeing that no slaves would be emancipated by the Proclamation.

In his first inaugural address Lincoln referred to the proposed "Corwin Amendment" to the Constitution that would have prohibited the federal government from ever interfering with slavery. He said that he already held the legality of slavery to be "implied constitutinal law," and "I have no objection to its being made express and irrovocable" by enshrining slavery explicitly in the Constitution.

Source: "The Real Lincoln"

Here's a quote from Lincoln: "My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union."

I see Lincoln very differently after reading parts of that book.

I'll put it this way...  I have a certain amount of respect for the Founding Fathers, but I would agree that they were ultimately rich white males mostly concerned about the rights of rich white males.  If I had been alive during the Revolution, I would've sided with the British, but that's another discussion altogether....

Let me post a few things that might be of interest to you....

Thomas DiLorenzo wrote:
Slave owners in the border states occupied by the U.S. Army were allowed to keep their slaves. Whenever any of Lincoln's generals, such as Gen. Fremont, took it upon themselves to emancipate some slaves early in the war he rebuffed them, reversed their decisions, and demoted them. The Emancipation Proclamation itself very specifically exempted all areas of the country that were controlled by the U.S. Army, guaranteeing that no slaves would be emancipated by the Proclamation.

In his first inaugural address Lincoln referred to the proposed "Corwin Amendment" to the Constitution that would have prohibited the federal government from ever interfering with slavery. He said that he already held the legality of slavery to be "implied constitutinal law," and "I have no objection to its being made express and irrovocable" by enshrining slavery explicitly in the Constitution.

Source: "The Real Lincoln"

Here's a quote from Lincoln: "My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union."

I see Lincoln very differently after reading parts of that book.


Yes, as I said the Emanicpation Proclamation did not, initially, free all the slaves, only the ones in areas of conflict. Once it got a toe hold, though, there wasn't any turning back.  I believe Lincoln knew that would happen. The book which, at the moment, is the definitive Lincoln book is "Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin" .  It is an amazing piece of scholarship, very engrossing. You should try that, although you may not like Lincoln you will have to appreciate his genius.

Yes, as I said the Emanicpation Proclamation did not, initially, free all the slaves, only the ones in areas of conflict. Once it got a toe hold, though, there wasn't any turning back.  I believe Lincoln knew that would happen. The book which, at the moment, is the definitive Lincoln book is "Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin" .  It is an amazing piece of scholarship, very engrossing. You should try that, although you may not like Lincoln you will have to appreciate his genius.


Oh, I fully agree that he was a master politician.  He was one of the craftiest people in American government that ever lived.  I can fully appreciate his level of intelligence, but that doesn't mean that he has much dignity.

Oh, I fully agree that he was a master politician.  He was one of the craftiest people in American government that ever lived.  I can fully appreciate his level of intelligence, but that doesn't mean that he has much dignity.


I guess this would be an "eye of the beholder"