I know this topic has been covered many times before and I'm too lazy to search for the threads-so I figured I would start a new one. Many of you are aware that my 99 year old grandmother had a stroke this past Sunday. My family is now dealing with these end of life issues so it is very much on my mind right now. Here is what is going on:

She has fluid around her heart so they can't stick an IV into her and she can't swallow. Because of that, she is not getting any nourishment. She is aware of what is going on and has made two things clear-she wants to go home and she doesn't want a feeding tube. She lives in a retirement community that has a nursing home on one side of it. She has made it clear over the years that she did not want to end up there (people check in but they don't check out). Now, my family is trying to move her in there. Yeah, it is against her wishes but we all feel that she will be better off there. The people there know her-by name, and like her. So she will be treated with care. At the hospital, they don't know her, and really aren't doing ANYTHING for her. I just got word from my dad that she will be moved to hospice care at the home and she only has about 25% heart function.

My dad said that we shoot horses to put them out of misery but we don't do it with people. Is that humane? I don't know. I don't have the answers. My entire family is of two minds-1. We would all love to Grandma fight and get better. She has always been a tough cookie-and we have been planning her 100 birthday party for Aug. 2. We are wishing that things would be swift so she won't be in any pain. We all know she never wanted to end up like that. And it just breaks all of our hearts that she is dealing with this. I did say to one of my sisters this morning, "Where is Dr. Kavorkian when you need him?"

Anyway, I'm putting this in the political section for discussion on the end of life issues.


Cat

I'm sorry to hear that your grandmother is very ill, Cat. I didn't know.

I went through a similar ordeal ten years ago with my grandfather. He was 80 and had chest pain. He goes in and finds out his heart is 90% blocked - this from a man who by himself pushed his town car through the yard to jumpstart it a month earlier.

While debating on whether or not he wanted to do catheterization and what not, I came to the conclusion that whatever he wanted was fine with me. It wasn't my decision. His mind was as sharp as a tack, only his heart didn't quite physically match it...

He had a heart attack shortly afterward that made him too weak to undergo surgery of any type. The doctors gave him a week, but he made it two more. He passed away at the hospital, having been there almost one month.

End of life is a legal Catch-22 - any sane person wouldn't want to end his life, and anyone with diminished mental capacity can't make the decision. I hear it trotted out all the time that doctors/families would simply kill patients too ill to treat, but I think it's a lame argument against euthanasia.

I think it's screwed up that we kill criminals out of revenge (not that I'm always against revenge) but can't allow those who are about to die a bit of dignity. I am considering getting an advance directive (which can include DNR orders) as I am totally against going out hooked to machines, nor do I want my familly to fight over "what is best". Whether I live to be 35 or 85, I'd like the last thing I do in life (i.e., die) to be my wishes and not the state's or my family's. Some may think it selfish - I prefer to think of it as advanced planning for the inevitable.

We always want those we love to live longer - I know I wanted my grandfather to be around longer than he was. Saying that last goodbye is always painful...  :\'(

Ant

I know what you're going through.  My grandfather died two years ago at the age of 100.  He died similarly of congestive heart failure, but he was cognizant right to the end.  My grandmother had died 18 months earlier at 92 after losing a battle with dementia.  My aunt was in charge of the proceedings. She moved Grandpa from the retirment condominium my grandparents bought in 1991 and to a nursing facility. He didn't have an particular condition other than being 99 years old with his body shutting down and dying.  He turned 100 in September.  In December my aunt had him transferred to an acute care facility near her home in Washington D.C.  Grandpa died 1/20/06.  The death certificate listed "congestive heart failure," but it was really what we call "old age."  

Improved diet, exercise, medicines, and medical technologies help us all live longer.*  However, there is an upper limit to human lifespan.  Your grandmother is 99 with stroke and heart failure.  If it was up to me, I would say release the woman from this life.  It is time.  If your family put a million dollars and all life preserving technology to work, perhaps they could keep her systemically alive for up to two years longer.  But what would her quality of life be?

*Sometimes it's genetics and luck.  My grandfather was overweight since middle age, he rarely exercised at all, and---I know this sounds crass--my grandmother's cooking would have killed a man of lesser consitution 20 years earlier.  My grandfather used an 02 machine in his 90s because of sleep apnea.  Otherwise, he would have "died quietly in his sleep."

I'm sorry for what you're having to deal with, Catwoman.  :(

All I can say is...  I'm very much a supporter of euthanasia, and I know that I'd prefer to be euthanized if I was in a situation similar to hers.  Good luck in making one of the hardest decisions anyone has to make.

Thats not good news,cat.  Want a hug?  

My family went through a similar thing with my Grandfather back in October.  He was 94.  What the family did was put him in a Nursing Home when he could no longer care for himself.  He hated everyone after that.  His health continued to decline.  He wasn't eating, he was abusive.  The doctors put him on Prozac which he had a bad reaction to.  According to my Aunt he was ready to go and keeping him here was putting him through hell. She had a DNR order drawn up and told the doctors that they should just let him go.  He lasted a month after all of that.  I think what it comes down to is are you keeping them alive for their benefit or the family's. 

I'm so sorry to hear about your grandmother, Cat.  :\'(


Saying that last goodbye is always painful...  :\'(

I agree completely. It's one of the worst feelings in the world.

Karma to you coqueta .... for being THE one to place Catwoman over the line.

See here: -> Catwoman! THE choice for DISCERNING voters ! ;D

An Error Has Occurred!
Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 24 hours.

:\'( :\'(


Never mind ... I certainly won't forget !  ;)  :)

:\'( :\'(


Never mind ... I certainly won't forget !  ;)  :)


That's all right.....no worries!  :D

Sorry to hear about your Grandmother Catwoman, I know how difficult situation that is. My thoughts are with you and your family.

I ended up in the hospital in '05, difficulty breathing and heavy bloating in my legs. I had put on about 19lbs of weight in two weeks.
Diagnosed with congestive heart failure at 38.
At the time of admitting me my heart function was down to 12%. Didn't look good, had doctors all mulling over me, not one had a good outcome, they all thought I was a goner...

I had never thought I would be in the position, but I had to start making plans for my will and what my final wishes would be. I was very scared. Looking out of the hospital window, with all the wires and sensors taped to my chest, & IVs in my arm, the first thing I wanted to be was not there. If I was going to die I wanted to be with my family or friends at the local bar having a drink. I never thought about right to die issues, at least I was still alert and not drugged or in that much pain that I thought of ending my life.

Luckily for me a wonderful drug called Lasix (a diuretic) helped get the water build up off (lost 27 lbs in a WEEK, sounds like a good weight loss idea but DON'T try it).

I'm not advocating assisted suicide, but I do believe as long as that person has the option, and they are suffering, and there is no hope of a medical solution, they should have their wishes followed to that end. No one, not the government, not religion should take that right away from you...

Life is precious, you should be able to spend your last days the way you want and leave the way you wish, and not pass on in a hospital bed.

Sorry to hear about your Grandmother Catwoman, I know how difficult situation that is. My thoughts are with you and your family.

I ended up in the hospital in '05, difficulty breathing and heavy bloating in my legs. I had put on about 19lbs of weight in two weeks.
Diagnosed with congestive heart failure at 38.
At the time of admitting me my heart function was down to 12%. Didn't look good, had doctors all mulling over me, not one had a good outcome, they all thought I was a goner...

I had never thought I would be in the position, but I had to start making plans for my will and what my final wishes would be. I was very scared. Looking out of the hospital window, with all the wires and sensors taped to my chest, & IVs in my arm, the first thing I wanted to be was not there. If I was going to die I wanted to be with my family or friends at the local bar having a drink. I never thought about right to die issues, at least I was still alert and not drugged or in that much pain that I thought of ending my life.

Luckily for me a wonderful drug called Lasix (a diuretic) helped get the water build up off (lost 27 lbs in a WEEK, sounds like a good weight loss idea but DON'T try it).

I'm not advocating assisted suicide, but I do believe as long as that person has the option, and they are suffering, and there is no hope of a medical solution, they should have their wishes followed to that end. No one, not the government, not religion should take that right away from you...

Life is precious, you should be able to spend your last days the way you want and leave the way you wish, and not pass on in a hospital bed.


My god, Gumypiz, what a harrowing story.  Sounds like you have a seconday medical condition to bring that on.  Lasix saves a lot of lives.  Sure glad yours was one of them!  You're right, there's a very good reason you cant get it OTC!

Whereas 38 is not the end of the human lifespan (could have been the end of mine for other reasons), but in general, you might easily live four more decades.  99, on the other hand, is really at the upper limit. 

My god, Gumypiz, what a harrowing story.  Sounds like you have a seconday medical condition to bring that on.  Lasix saves a lot of lives.  Sure glad yours was one of them!  You're right, there's a very good reason you cant get it OTC!

Whereas 38 is not the end of the human lifespan (could have been the end of mine for other reasons), but in general, you might easily live four more decades.  99, on the other hand, is really at the upper limit. 

Actually I was a borderline diabetic before that incident, but had no history of heart problems in my family, at all. Metformin, taken for blood sugar control, turns out to bring on CHF in some people, who knew? Now I have CHF, full blown diabetes II, and hypertension...I'm going for the trifecta y'know.  ::)

But its all good, I have a much better understanding and appreciation of life and all that mushy sentimental stuff now.

I also have more respect for those with chronic pain and those terminally ill now. Whereas before I thought Dr. Kavorkian as a creepy ghoul, and thought his patients were crazy. I at least understand and can empathize why those people went to him for his services (although I still think he is a creepy ghoul).

Anyhoo, I plan on being around a long time. My gf is going to teach me to ski (and there's nothing funnier than trying to teach a old black guy to ski) so I have to hang around at least for that.  ;)

I'm sorry for your grandma,Cat :(

And gumbypiz all i can say is wow! I'm glad you're ok now.

I'm mostly against euthanasia,i'll tell you why later 'cause now i have to run :\'(

What can I say here that hasn't already been said by the fine folk in this thread ? Interesting stories .... and I'm in agreement with euthanasia /  quality (not quantity) of life. Sooner or later, we've all gotta go .... so, it might as well be under OUR terms, right ?

I'm sorry to hear about your Grandmother,Cat :\'(
It's a very hard decision to make,I know when my mother was dying of cancer and only weighed 75 lbs my father was torn between wanting to spend as much time he could with her,and relieving her pain,we choose to let her live her life out.

I want to thank everyone for your well wishes. The latest is that she has been moved to the nursing home and is sedated.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

When I started this thread, I wasn't too sure if people realized my intent because I noticed a lot of people reading it but no one responded. With the response now, people DID get my intent. Thanks everyone.



Cat

Thanks for posting this thread, Cat.  It's an issue we don't discuss enough. 

Thanks for posting this thread, Cat.  It's an issue we don't discuss enough. 



It is something that is on my mind right now.



Cat

Thanks for posting this thread, Cat.  It's an issue we don't discuss enough. 


Too true.  Everyone needs to talk about with their next-of-kin, and preferably to put something in writing.  My parents know my wishes, and I know theirs.  I'm lucky enough to be in a family where we're able to discuss it and make our wishes known to each other.  Doesn't make it any easier when the time comes, but at least there's no second-guessing.

For what little it's worth - a lot of Silents are "We shoot horses, not people" mentality until they have to witness one of their parents (or spouses) spend their last days/weeks/months in the hospital in varying degrees of agony depending on the underlying medical condition.  Boomers seem to be about 50/50 going in, and 90/10 going out.  This thread (and other conversations I've had) is evidence that some form of euthanasia will ultimately be legalized within the next 50 years.  Eventually, enough our politicians will want the option for their own relatives.

A man's only posession is is life; he has as much right to continue to live it (so long as he doesn't do so by forcing others to act against their will) as he does to end it (again, so long as he doesn't, in so ending, force others to act against their will).  Consider a man who wishes to die, but is denied the opportunity to do so by the State.  That is, a man forced to live because he's incapable of dying by his own hand, and because the State will arrest and imprison anyone who voluntarily assists him in helping him carry out his final wish.  Is a man's life truly his own, or does it belong to the State?  Can a man denied the right to die truly be said to have the right to life?

Too true.  Everyone needs to talk about with their next-of-kin, and preferably to put something in writing.  My parents know my wishes, and I know theirs.  I'm lucky enough to be in a family where we're able to discuss it and make our wishes known to each other.  Doesn't make it any easier when the time comes, but at least there's no second-guessing.

For what little it's worth - a lot of Silents are "We shoot horses, not people" mentality until they have to witness one of their parents (or spouses) spend their last days/weeks/months in the hospital in varying degrees of agony depending on the underlying medical condition.  Boomers seem to be about 50/50 going in, and 90/10 going out.  This thread (and other conversations I've had) is evidence that some form of euthanasia will ultimately be legalized within the next 50 years.  Eventually, enough our politicians will want the option for their own relatives.

A man's only posession is is life; he has as much right to continue to live it (so long as he doesn't do so by forcing others to act against their will) as he does to end it (again, so long as he doesn't, in so ending, force others to act against their will).  Consider a man who wishes to die, but is denied the opportunity to do so by the State.  That is, a man forced to live because he's incapable of dying by his own hand, and because the State will arrest and imprison anyone who voluntarily assists him in helping him carry out his final wish.  Is a man's life truly his own, or does it belong to the State?  Can a man denied the right to die truly be said to have the right to life?

Wow, very well said.

I truly believe anyone in the actual situation of having to make their final life choices would agree that euthanasia should be a viable option to those in such a condition.

I know many a family member who wants to have their terminally ill loved one to be with them as long as can be humanly possible. And its extremely difficult to understand the position of those that are dying...

But its such a individual life (or death) choice, we really do have to re evaluate what the definition of freedom is (in this country) and our own personal rights before we'll ever be able to get to even discuss this issue in any type of forum to have the state lawfully to allow it.

This country has such large issues dealing with reality, much less accepting the real ending of life and our own lives, that we may never get to recognize how important it is to have your own choice to leave this world.

Death is still so taboo in this society, until we get past that, we'll have some serious problems dealing with this issue.  :-X

Too true.  Everyone needs to talk about with their next-of-kin, and preferably to put something in writing.  My parents know my wishes, and I know theirs.  I'm lucky enough to be in a family where we're able to discuss it and make our wishes known to each other.  Doesn't make it any easier when the time comes, but at least there's no second-guessing.

For what little it's worth - a lot of Silents are "We shoot horses, not people" mentality until they have to witness one of their parents (or spouses) spend their last days/weeks/months in the hospital in varying degrees of agony depending on the underlying medical condition.  Boomers seem to be about 50/50 going in, and 90/10 going out.  This thread (and other conversations I've had) is evidence that some form of euthanasia will ultimately be legalized within the next 50 years.  Eventually, enough our politicians will want the option for their own relatives.

A man's only posession is is life; he has as much right to continue to live it (so long as he doesn't do so by forcing others to act against their will) as he does to end it (again, so long as he doesn't, in so ending, force others to act against their will).  Consider a man who wishes to die, but is denied the opportunity to do so by the State.  That is, a man forced to live because he's incapable of dying by his own hand, and because the State will arrest and imprison anyone who voluntarily assists him in helping him carry out his final wish.  Is a man's life truly his own, or does it belong to the State?  Can a man denied the right to die truly be said to have the right to life?



Wow, very well said.


Agreed. Very eloquent !

K + 1  8)

A man's only posession is is life; he has as much right to continue to live it (so long as he doesn't do so by forcing others to act against their will) as he does to end it (again, so long as he doesn't, in so ending, force others to act against their will).  Consider a man who wishes to die, but is denied the opportunity to do so by the State.  That is, a man forced to live because he's incapable of dying by his own hand, and because the State will arrest and imprison anyone who voluntarily assists him in helping him carry out his final wish.  Is a man's life truly his own, or does it belong to the State?  Can a man denied the right to die truly be said to have the right to life?



But its such a individual life (or death) choice, we really do have to re evaluate what the definition of freedom is (in this country) and our own personal rights before we'll ever be able to get to even discuss this issue in any type of forum to have the state lawfully to allow it.

First let me just say...Cat your grandma should just be able to go home,passive euthanasia makes sense to me,one if in possession of all mental capacities should be free to choose if they want to be treated or not.

But aggressive euthanasia or assisted suicide are more difficult for me to agree with,because the reasons behind it have more to do with how society defines "quality of life" and how it shuns the old and the sick.
It irks me how in this time and age when people can live longer than ever before,we treat our elders as disposable.
When old cultures used to turn to the elderly for advice and guidance,now most in old age and with medical conditions that prevent them to be active feel worthless,my grandma passed away a few months ago,she was sick for a very long time and in the last years she was always saying she would be better off dead,but the thing is she would say that not because she was in pain but mainly because she felt she was a burden to the family and that’s what i'm getting at…if we could choose we wouldn’t choose death. 

Our all society is build to praise the healthy and hide the sick,but at the same time science keeps working to help those who are sick fight their diseases…showing us that being sick doesn't have to be a death sentence.There are many ways to deal with pain,the drugs are getting more and more effective,palliative care works. Life shouldn't be about pain,but it is sometimes,and a life with pain can be worth living,we should be more concerned with making life better to those who are suffering instead of looking for an exit.

There is a lot of talk about "dying with dignity" and i have to ask what is that? Does someone who is sick has less dignity than a healthy person? Death is death,there's no dignified way to die imo,yes dying without pain or suffering must be better but it's still death,it brings sadness and pain to those who loose that someone.

We all should be free to choose the best for ourselves but are we really choosing when we choose to give up?Take suicide,why is it that all of us have thought about it but only some do it? We all want to give up sometimes and if we don't is because being truly free also means we can't forget the ones around us,the ones who love us and care about us,our life is our own but is also made of relationships that we have to consider every time we make a decision.

Back to my grandma,when she died we were all beside her and everyone was saying how wonderful it was that she had a peaceful death…but right before closing her eyes and taking her last breath i caught her eye and i could tell she was trying to hold on,scared of what was happening and hoping for a miracle...t wasn’t peaceful for her or for me,it made me so desperate to help and at the same time so proud because i got proof that she wanted to live,that even with pain and sorrow and hopelessness life is what we know and should fight for because death…death is the unknown and it can be better than this or worse or just the end,but nobody is ready for it…not even those who choose it.

But aggressive euthanasia or assisted suicide are more difficult for me to agree with,because the reasons behind it have more to do with how society defines "quality of life" and how it shuns the old and the sick. 


So while you're still of sound mind and body, instruct your next-of-kin not to do it to you.  What does society have to do with it?  By what right does a collective have any input on an individual decision? 


It irks me how in this time and age when people can live longer than ever before,we treat our elders as disposable.


Lone Ranger:  Dang, Tonto, that sure is a lotta Injuns!  We're in trouble now!
Tonto:  What you mean we, white man?

Who's this "we" of which you speak, and why does it have any input into a decision that is, by right, an individual decision?

my grandma passed away a few months ago,she was sick for a very long time and in the last years she was always saying she would be better off dead,but the thing is she would say that not because she was in pain but mainly because she felt she was a burden to the family and that’s what i'm getting at…if we could choose we wouldn’t choose death.

Again with this "we" stuff.  Choose for yourself -- but please don't presume to choose for anyone else.  Given the choice between 6 months of bedridden agony (pick a form of cancer, past a certain point they all merge together) or 6 minutes of fadeout, I'm fading to black.  My grandparents were denied that choice.  My parents will probably be denied that choice.  I refuse to be denied that choice.

There are many ways to deal with pain,the drugs are getting more and more effective, palliative care works.

Define "works".  By definition, palliative care isn't about curing the disease or restoring the sick to health.  It's about making death less agonzing.  Nothing wrong with that, but if you must have an "us" in your argument, why deny "us" the option to skip ahead a it?  Some of "us" view life as a big video game -- it's not whether you live or die, it's about what you did in between. 


There is a lot of talk about "dying with dignity" and i have to ask what is that?


To carry on the gaming metaphor -- most chess games end by resignation, not by checkmate.  Grandmasters quit games that average players percieve as barely half-over.  A good player knows when he's beat, shakes hands with his opponent, and walks away from the board with his head held high.  There's no point in going through the motions when the game's already over.  The dignity lies in knowing the difference between a temporary or correctable situation and the end of the game.

"Life's a journey, not a destination" - Amazing

To answer the question of "dying with dignity", first, no, sick people do not have less dignity than those who are well. It was a fairly poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that I want my dying wishes (or as Foo Bar sort of put it, the 'end game') to be respected. I want your dying wishes to be respected. I want everyone's... well, you get the point.

Regardless of what people want, I think their decisions should be respected. For example, I detest the though of laying in a coma and being hooked to machines to keep me alive. Now, if that happens due to a car accident next week verses a huge anyeurism at 90, I'd want there to be more effort to save me. However, in either case, if I'm brain dead, I do not and will not be artificially kept alive for my family.

Each and every day is precious - even though most of us will live to see tens of thousands of them, we all will eventually reach a day where we do not exist. I would like to be remembered for who I was, not how I died. To that point, I have seldomly visited my grandparents graves - they are always in my heart, and seeing tombstones does nothing positive for me.

I already said how my grandfather died. His wife (my maternal grandmother) died at 66 of a sudden heart attack. There was no end of life issues on her end, and at 7 years old I didn't quite understand the concept that I wouldn't see her again. I never knew my paternal grandfather, but my paternal grandmother's death was pretty horrible by all accounts (or, by my account). Her mind started failing her at 80 and by 82 she didn't know any of her family anymore. She lived to be 88. Six painful years of knowing someone you love is still alive, but at the same time dead. Her condition shredded some relationships between members of my family, including between my dad and aunt and between my dad and my sister - they have not spoken to each other in 8 years.

I'm sure she wasn't in any pain, emotionally or physically, and she died of natural causes...

Foo Bar, to continue your Chess metaphor, sure experts will know when they have lost. However, even when you know the inevitable is going to happen, there might be a little fun in ganking Death's queen before you get mated.  ;)

Ant

But this isn't just a parent/grandparent thing.  Everyone of us on this board will face end-of-life issues sooner or later.  None are immortal!

If you take a close look, once a person is hospitalized the quality of life and chances for a dignified death have much to do with how much insurance they have.  Any who think that they know how they wish to die should they become incapacitated to the point that someone else makes the decision about their care should be prepared to make monetary arrangements to see that those wishes are carried out. 

There still isn't any change with my grandmother. Yes, she is still alive and still satiated-not aware. She is comfortable but this is NOT what she wanted. And it is not really humane either. She could be in this state for weeks.



Cat

That is why you need a living will.  Did your grandmother have one, Cat?

I am so sorry your family, especially your grandmother, is going through this.  We watched my grandmother die and it was so hard.  She was at home surrounded by family and the hospice nurse gave her morphine patches so she basically slept her last 36 hours.  It happened two days after Christmas so more of the grandkids were in town to say goodbye.  She was ready to go. 

{{ton of hugs to you}}

That is why you need a living will.  Did your grandmother have one, Cat?

I am so sorry your family, especially your grandmother, is going through this.  We watched my grandmother die and it was so hard.  She was at home surrounded by family and the hospice nurse gave her morphine patches so she basically slept her last 36 hours.  It happened two days after Christmas so more of the grandkids were in town to say goodbye.  She was ready to go. 

{{ton of hugs to you}}



Yes, she does have a living will which is why she is not having anything but the morphine (so she will not be in any pain-the only humane thing we can do). When all of this happened, she still had her mind even if she couldn't talk very well and made her wishes known. When first asked if she wanted to fight, the only word she got out was "home" meaning YES, she wanted to fight-until she realized that that meant she needed a feeding tube. She made her wishes known that she DID NOT want a feeding tube which meant there was no way she could fight this. Then she was inclined to let go. So, all who were there (two of my sisters and their kids, my cousin & his family) all said good-bye. My dad basically said good-bye to her over the phone (with my sister holding the phone to her ear). Then they drugged her so she is not aware of anything and we are just waiting for Nature to take her course. Sad as it is. My dad keeps saying that if this happened to a dog or a cat, we can do the humane thing and put them to sleep but we can't do that to our loved ones. How sad.



Cat

Yes, she does have a living will which is why she is not having anything but the morphine (so she will not be in any pain-the only humane thing we can do). When all of this happened, she still had her mind even if she couldn't talk very well and made her wishes known. When first asked if she wanted to fight, the only word she got out was "home" meaning YES, she wanted to fight-until she realized that that meant she needed a feeding tube. She made her wishes known that she DID NOT want a feeding tube which meant there was no way she could fight this. Then she was inclined to let go. So, all who were there (two of my sisters and their kids, my cousin & his family) all said good-bye. My dad basically said good-bye to her over the phone (with my sister holding the phone to her ear). Then they drugged her so she is not aware of anything and we are just waiting for Nature to take her course. Sad as it is. My dad keeps saying that if this happened to a dog or a cat, we can do the humane thing and put them to sleep but we can't do that to our loved ones. How sad.



Cat


That is exactly what my grandma went through except that she was at home with my mom and grandpa taking care of her.  You are right, it is sad that we can't do for our loved ones what we can do for our pets.

On the other hand, nobody calls us callous and inhumane if we refuse to go broke keeping a 17-year-old blind, rheumatoid Golden Retriever alive for another six months!

I'm not saying euthenasia is the way to go, but neither is fighting death as though death itself was an curable disease.  A time limit is punched into your DNA code in the womb.  You might live to be 60 or 90 or even 110, but you ARE going to die!  The absolute oldest any human being has been verified to have lifed is 122 years and 164 days in the case of a French woman named Jeanne Calment (1875--1997).  There are still claims of humans attaining ages of 130+, but statisticians calculate the chances of a 130 year lifespan to be one in trillions. 

Of course this does not mean a person who manifests heart failure or cancer at 60 should refuse treatment and call it quits.  Not at all.  By that logic, whe should not immunize for childhood illnesses either.  If the fever takes your son at the age five, it's his time.  That's like Christian Science mentality. 

I'm just saying in the case of Cat's grandmother at age 99 or my grandfather at age 100, acceptance of mortality is reasonable and fighting death is not.  I recently read about one supercentenarian who still walked five miles a day at age 114.  Fair enough.  She didn't spend the last decade strapped to machines.  Such cases are extrordinary genetic anomolies and we should not expect such staying power for our parents, our selves, or our children. 

So while you're still of sound mind and body, instruct your next-of-kin not to do it to you.  What does society have to do with it?  By what right does a collective have any input on an individual decision? 

Lone Ranger:  Dang, Tonto, that sure is a lotta Injuns!  We're in trouble now!
Tonto:  What you mean we, white man?

Who's this "we" of which you speak, and why does it have any input into a decision that is, by right, an individual decision?

Again with this "we" stuff.  Choose for yourself -- but please don't presume to choose for anyone else.  Given the choice between 6 months of bedridden agony (pick a form of cancer, past a certain point they all merge together) or 6 minutes of fadeout, I'm fading to black.  My grandparents were denied that choice.  My parents will probably be denied that choice.  I refuse to be denied that choice.

Is it an individual decision when you're asking someone else to end your life for you?My opinion is my own but it is about WE, because it involves others,we're not talking about suicide here,we're talking about a law that has to change because you and those who think like you want someone else to make the call. Even if you're utterly alone and you think your death only concerns you,your individual choice is tainted when you bring a "executioner" to the equation.

Awhile ago i saw a documentary on this subject called Exit-Le Droit de Mourir,in Switzerland euthanasia is legal and there are organizations that administer euthanasia to the ones who ask for it,they make a deathly cocktail and give it to their "clients",their workers are people like you and me who volunteer for this task (some of them seem very gun-ho about their role others are constantly tormented for it) they have meetings and decide who is entitled to it and who's not and truth be told they seem to have a good set of rules for it but it is their rules, if they think your problems or your health condition are not bad enough they won't help you. But if they don't people can probably find another who will,after all these organizations live out of donations,if they deny their services their "clients" won't be as generous,maybe in the future it will be just like any other business…it shocks me to the core but i guess that's my problem.


Define "works".  By definition, palliative care isn't about curing the disease or restoring the sick to health.  It's about making death less agonzing.  Nothing wrong with that, but if you must have an "us" in your argument, why deny "us" the option to skip ahead a it?  Some of "us" view life as a big video game -- it's not whether you live or die, it's about what you did in between. 

It works by making your last days less sufferable,that's what i meant there are ways to deal with pain if they were given freely and to all i'm not sure there would be so many euthanasia apologists.


To carry on the gaming metaphor -- most chess games end by resignation, not by checkmate.  Grandmasters quit games that average players percieve as barely half-over.  A good player knows when he's beat, shakes hands with his opponent, and walks away from the board with his head held high.  There's no point in going through the motions when the game's already over.  The dignity lies in knowing the difference between a temporary or correctable situation and the end of the game.


Your videogame analogy can make sense to you but since i don't see my life as a game i really can't relate,sorry.There's a lot to be said about dying with your head held high,to me it's a contradiction that doesn't mean a thing. If it was about that then whenever someone feels they couldn't walk around with their head held high they would just give up,myself i would've given up about 100 times then.


"Life's a journey, not a destination" - Amazing

To answer the question of "dying with dignity", first, no, sick people do not have less dignity than those who are well. It was a fairly poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that I want my dying wishes (or as Foo Bar sort of put it, the 'end game') to be respected. I want your dying wishes to be respected. I want everyone's... well, you get the point.

Regardless of what people want, I think their decisions should be respected. For example, I detest the though of laying in a coma and being hooked to machines to keep me alive. Now, if that happens due to a car accident next week verses a huge anyeurism at 90, I'd want there to be more effort to save me. However, in either case, if I'm brain dead, I do not and will not be artificially kept alive for my family.

Each and every day is precious - even though most of us will live to see tens of thousands of them, we all will eventually reach a day where we do not exist. I would like to be remembered for who I was, not how I died. To that point, I have seldomly visited my grandparents graves - they are always in my heart, and seeing tombstones does nothing positive for me.

I already said how my grandfather died. His wife (my maternal grandmother) died at 66 of a sudden heart attack. There was no end of life issues on her end, and at 7 years old I didn't quite understand the concept that I wouldn't see her again. I never knew my paternal grandfather, but my paternal grandmother's death was pretty horrible by all accounts (or, by my account). Her mind started failing her at 80 and by 82 she didn't know any of her family anymore. She lived to be 88. Six painful years of knowing someone you love is still alive, but at the same time dead. Her condition shredded some relationships between members of my family, including between my dad and aunt and between my dad and my sister - they have not spoken to each other in 8 years.

I'm sure she wasn't in any pain, emotionally or physically, and she died of natural causes...

Foo Bar, to continue your Chess metaphor, sure experts will know when they have lost. However, even when you know the inevitable is going to happen, there might be a little fun in ganking Death's queen before you get mated.  ;)

Ant


First let me tell you i’m really sorry about your grandma,and how her condition affected your family,Jack :(
But I have to ask...would you and your family be ok with ending her life when her faculties started to fade? If your family is anything like mine we wouldn't all be in agreement so it could be an even bigger strain in our relationship,the ones who wanted to let her go and the ones who wanted to wait, accusations flying,my point it could break a family too,you get me?


But this isn't just a parent/grandparent thing.  Everyone of us on this board will face end-of-life issues sooner or later.  None are immortal!


That is the absolute truth but is also true that the desire for immortality is present in all,something is lost when you realise that you are in fact mortal,i believe that’s the true rite of passage that makes you an adult and i must say i hated it and still have a hard time accepting it,the other day i came across this video on youtube called The Immortalists and i can't help but feel sort of excited by this possibility of living forever http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=JlOFBqDVfhE

There's a quote by one of my favorite authors Anais Nin that summs it up for me  "I postpone death by living,by suffering,by error,by risking,by living,by losing"

First let me tell you i’m really sorry about your grandma,and how her condition affected your family,Jack :(
But I have to ask...would you and your family be ok with ending her life when her faculties started to fade? If your family is anything like mine we wouldn't all be in agreement so it could be an even bigger strain in our relationship,the ones who wanted to let her go and the ones who wanted to wait, accusations flying,my point it could break a family too,you get me?


Thank you, Isabel. We didn't even consider it - she was in no pain, and it wasn't an option. When I wrote "I'm sure she wasn't in any pain, emotionally or physically, and she died of natural causes...", what I neglected to say is that many in our family (including myself) was of the mindset that "sometimes it's possible to live too long".

Many states here do not allow patients to die their natural deaths - if a patient can't feed him or herself, they must have a feeding tube. It's not the patient's, family's or even doctor's decision. Keeping someone alive like that is almost as bad as letting them starve slowly.

It's mind boggling to me that most states have the death penalty (even if many do not execute criminals), most allow abortion (even if seldom given/performed in some), but according to this list only Ohio and Oregon allow physician assisted suicide. 4 others, including VA (which allows abortion and we have the death penalty) have no laws regarding it. In the other 44 states, it is illegal.

I hate to bring up abortion and capital punishment, but with the former, just like end of life issues, I believe they should be left up to the individuals involved, not the state.

Death always involves others - no one dies without it affecting someone else. I find it unlikely though that any person's euthanasia by action or assisted suicide affects the state. Personally, I'd like my own death to have as minimal a negative impact on my loved ones as possible.

My mother works at a CCRC. People that go to a place like that have no illusions in that they know that is their final home. We talked a bit about end of life issues tonight. She thought it a bit odd that she has to undergo CPR training when the overwhelming majority of the residents there have DNR orders...

I guess I have an extremely warped view of death, because most of the time I'm in a very small minority when I discuss my thoughts about it.


That is exactly what my grandma went through except that she was at home with my mom and grandpa taking care of her.  You are right, it is sad that we can't do for our loved ones what we can do for our pets.


Well said.

~~~~

Apologies to Catwoman - I know it must be very hard going through what you and your family are right now. Nothing here is meant to make light of that.

Ant

Well I have no problem with euthanasia/assisted suicide in certain cases if that is what the person wants. I have never forgotten watching a documentary about a sculptor who was parallised from the neck down in a car accident and was fighting for the right to have his feeding tube taken out because he was being driven mad by being mentally alert but physically a vegatable, and the constant artistic ideas he could never fulfil.

That is what happened to my Nan when she had her stroke. It was so severe they said if she hadn't been so fit when it happened it would have killed her and boy did she wish it had. Before the stroke she was very active she was always out and about and very clever always doing crossword puzzles and reading constantly. After the stroke she spent 3 years trapped inside a body that couldn't do anything anymore. She was mentally as quick and sharp as ever but her body had failed, this included her eyesight so she couldn't even read anymore or even watch T.V properly. She became so depressed and frustrated it was agonising to see. Also for a very private lady to suddenly have no control over her bodily functions was mortifying for her. She had to go into care when she had her stroke and as we couldn't afford a private home she had to go to a state run one. There they 'lump' all the severe stroke victims in one room so she didn't even have people to talk to as 90% of the people there were in a vegetative state. She was just desperate for it all to end. Can you imagine a life like that? Where is the quality and yes the dignity? I adored my Nan but it broke my heart to see her in those three years and sorry as I was when she did die I was also happy for her to be free of it. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Well I have no problem with euthanasia/assisted suicide in certain cases if that is what the person wants. I have never forgotten watching a documentary about a sculptor who was parallised from the neck down in a car accident and was fighting for the right to have his feeding tube taken out because he was being driven mad by being mentally alert but physically a vegatable, and the constant artistic ideas he could never fulfil.

That is what happened to my Nan when she had her stroke. It was so severe they said if she hadn't been so fit when it happened it would have killed her and boy did she wish it had. Before the stroke she was very active she was always out and about and very clever always doing crossword puzzles and reading constantly. After the stroke she spent 3 years trapped inside a body that couldn't do anything anymore. She was mentally as quick and sharp as ever but her body had failed, this included her eyesight so she couldn't even read anymore or even watch T.V properly. She became so depressed and frustrated it was agonising to see. Also for a very private lady to suddenly have no control over her bodily functions was mortifying for her. She had to go into care when she had her stroke and as we couldn't afford a private home she had to go to a state run one. There they 'lump' all the severe stroke victims in one room so she didn't even have people to talk to as 90% of the people there were in a vegetative state. She was just desperate for it all to end. Can you imagine a life like that? Where is the quality and yes the dignity? I adored my Nan but it broke my heart to see her in those three years and sorry as I was when she did die I was also happy for her to be free of it. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.



After my grandmother's stroke, she was still sharp as a tack-which is why we know exactly what her wishes are-and we are abiding by them-even though we would love for her to fight this. It was the thought of her having a feeding tube that she didn't like. And the fact that it has been over a week now and she is still holding on tells us that she could have fought this. But, what kind of life would she have had? Probably one that she wouldn't want.






Apologies to Catwoman - I know it must be very hard going through what you and your family are right now. Nothing here is meant to make light of that.

Ant



No apologies necessary. I don't think ANYONE is making light of my family's situation.



Cat

  Both sets of my gramma and grampas are gone now.  My sympathy and best wishes go out to you , Cat... 

  While were on euthanasia I think it goes hand-in-hand with abortion, if you want to look at it that way.  Like a 270th trimester abortion, or whatever the age works out to...

   Both sets of my gramma and grampas are gone now.  My sympathy and best wishes go out to you , Cat... 



Mine too.  Three of them lived to ripe old ages.  My paternal grandfather ate a shotgun at the age of 37.

Mine too.  Three of them lived to ripe old ages.  My paternal grandfather ate a shotgun at the age of 37.



   Oh man, your gramps...

   Gramma and gampa, mom's side, died within just a few months of each other.  I wonder if what they say is true about some old couples and the "will to live" after one is gone...

  People should listen to their grandparents more...

  That's right.  Listen to and respect your grandparents.  They were my guardian angels.  They saved my life.  They put up with more crap from me than any human being should be expected to.  If I lived to be 1,000 years old I still could not repay them for the sacrifices they willingly endured on my behalf.  They never asked for it, they didn't need it.  They took on the responsibility of raising their loser son's son in ther retirement ages when they should've been settling into a quiet and peaceful existence...

  I cannot thank them enough...

  Anything, at all, good in me I learned from my grandparents...

   Oh man, your gramps...

   Gramma and gampa, mom's side, died within just a few months of each other.  I wonder if what they say is true about some old couples and the "will to live" after one is gone...

Depression runs fierce in my family.  They didn't know much about it in 1943, let alone have anything like Prozac.  If things got bad enough they could lock you up in a loony bin, but that was about it.  The army doctors diagnosed my grandfather "manic-depressive" (what we now call bipolar) and gave him a medical discharge from officers training school and he arrived back at the family farm in NH.  His behavior deteriorated.  He had these delusions they were going to send him back to the army, which tormented him.  The folks tried their best to look out for him, but if you're determined to do it, you're going to do it.  He finagled a shotgun and that was that. 

His own father died ten years earlier in a traffic accident, which the family later determined to be a suicide.  Great-grandfather was, apparently, not bipolar but was always on about what a dreadful failure he'd been in life--which nobody else could understand after his distinguished teaching career. 

My father and I have both have harrowing struggles with depression.  I did not learn until later in life how close my father had been to taking his own life several times in his 30s and 40s and if it were not for SSRIs, I think he would have done it by now and same with me.  I don't care what people say about those medications because I know absent them, I wouldn't be here!

It is clear depression is heritable.  Actually, it is prevalent on both sides of my family; however, men get hit with it much worse than women.  That's why I'm glad my sisters had daughters, not sons!
::)

Depression runs fierce in my family.  They didn't know much about it in 1943, let alone have anything like Prozac.  If things got bad enough they could lock you up in a loony bin, but that was about it.  The army doctors diagnosed my grandfather "manic-depressive" (what we now call bipolar) and gave him a medical discharge from officers training school and he arrived back at the family farm in NH.  His behavior deteriorated.  He had these delusions they were going to send him back to the army, which tormented him.  The folks tried their best to look out for him, but if you're determined to do it, you're going to do it.  He finagled a shotgun and that was that. 

His own father died ten years earlier in a traffic accident, which the family later determined to be a suicide.  Great-grandfather was, apparently, not bipolar but was always on about what a dreadful failure he'd been in life--which nobody else could understand after his distinguished teaching career. 

My father and I have both have harrowing struggles with depression.  I did not learn until later in life how close my father had been to taking his own life several times in his 30s and 40s and if it were not for SSRIs, I think he would have done it by now and same with me.  I don't care what people say about those medications because I know absent them, I wouldn't be here!

It is clear depression is heritable.  Actually, it is prevalent on both sides of my family; however, men get hit with it much worse than women.  That's why I'm glad my sisters had daughters, not sons!
::)


Some forms of mental illness are genetic.  Depression is one of the hardest forms to deal with and treat.  Back in the days of your Grandfather depression was not considered a pysical illness.  It effect every thing.  Normally I'm anti-medication, however the combination of prozac and minipres keeps me sane.  But as I noted in my first comment here.  The doctors in the nursing home put my Grandfather on prozac, made him violent and he had a very bad reaction.  It all depends on who is given the meds I suppose.

If you take a close look, once a person is hospitalized the quality of life and chances for a dignified death have much to do with how much insurance they have.  Any who think that they know how they wish to die should they become incapacitated to the point that someone else makes the decision about their care should be prepared to make monetary arrangements to see that those wishes are carried out. 
I agree, but it's not only those without "enough" insurance whose quality of life decline, even those with plenty are screwed.  When my mom's cancer had gotten to the point where it couldn't be treated, she started "palliative care."  Which, IMO is a JOKE.  Palliative care is supposed to be all about making someone "comfortable."  Yes, for the most part, she was no longer in physical pain, but no one seems to care about her emotional pain.  How comfortable or dignified is it when you can't do ANYTHING for yourself because of the pain medication?  When you have to wear diapers because you can't even make it to the bathroom?  You can barely even function well enough to feed yourself, and even then, you end up wearing most of it.  Before she started on the meds, she was still coherent, as active as she could be, her mind was still sharp.  Once she started the pain meds, she lost ALL of that.  She went through 4 months of hell.....how is that "dignified"?  She's fortunate that the pain meds probably sped up her death.

Now, when my grandfather was dying and under hospice care, we knew that he would NEVER have wanted to live like that.  Lucky for us, the visiting nurse we had understood and agreed.....it's amazing how quickly 3x the pain meds helped him get his dying wish.....if it were only always that easy :-\\

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat
I'm so sorry to hear that Cat.

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat


My heart goes to you and your family,hang in there Cat.

Some forms of mental illness are genetic.  Depression is one of the hardest forms to deal with and treat.  Back in the days of your Grandfather depression was not considered a pysical illness.  It effect every thing.  Normally I'm anti-medication, however the combination of prozac and minipres keeps me sane.  But as I noted in my first comment here.  The doctors in the nursing home put my Grandfather on prozac, made him violent and he had a very bad reaction.  It all depends on who is given the meds I suppose.

I'm in favor of whatever works.  Sometimes it's meds, sometimes not.  What too many people--including a lot of physicians--don't appreciate is how powerful these anti-depressants are.  All the trouble started when they started handing Prozac out like candy.  In fact, it was not until about 20 years ago that depression was acknowledged as a physiological illness by the entire psychiatric community. 

Oh, Cat, I am so sorry to hear that.  As cliche as it sounds, at least she isn't sick anymore.  You and your family will be in my thoughts and prayers.

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat


I am so, so sorry, Cat.  :\'( I send much love and hugs to you and your family.  :\'(

Thanks, all.



Cat

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat



Oh, sorry Cat. I've only just read this .... in spite of our flurry of PM's .... I didn't know your Gran had died.  :-X  You have my sympathy.  :(

Oh, sorry Cat. I've only just read this .... in spite of our flurry of PM's .... I didn't know your Gran had died.  :-X  You have my sympathy.  :(



Thanks, my friend.


Cat

As cliche as it sounds, at least she isn't sick anymore. 


What she said.  Not that it makes it any easier, but yeah, that.  We got your back, Cat.

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat


My condolences Cat.

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat



My condolences Cat.


Mine too. :\'( Sorry to hear of your loss.

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat

Very, very sorry to hear that Cat. I know how difficult it is to lose a loved one.

My deepest condolences for you and your family, I hope your grandmother is resting easier now... :\'(

I just heard that my beloved grandmother has finally passed away.  :\'( :\'( :\'(



Cat


    :\'(

As I said in the PPP, thank you all so much for your kind words, PMs, and well wishes. I started this thread 10 days ago and I KNEW it was going to happen so it wasn't any surprise-but it still is hard. And I am having a harder time then I thought I would.



Cat