I received this email today and was quite disgusted with it.  It is some more propaganda and a bit scary.  I'm sure people actually believe this stuff, which is pretty sad.  Just thought I would see what you all think about it.



QUESTION: CAN A MUSLIM BE A GOOD AMERICAN?

                                                             
This is something I've wondered about for some time now: How & why do the Muslims hate us & everyone else so much? Doesn't their God teach them to love?

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - n o. Bec ause his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia .

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America , the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 ).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, an d the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspi cious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreeme nt wit h the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.

Pass it on, Fellow Americans.

This war is MUCH bigger than most Americans know or can understand.

What a load of goddamned sh*t. That's all I have to say.

neocons are to moderate muslims as fundamentalist muslims are to moderate jews.  ::)

folks keep thinking along these lines and pretty soon we're gonna be looking at something an awful lot like genocide. thanks for sharing, semperfido, we all need to be reminded how ugly antiarab hatred has gotten these days. 8-P

I know some Muslims.  They seem to be good Americans.  Can't speak for all of them though.

With that list:

Can anyone be a good american?

I am a great American!  :D

With that list:

Can anyone be a good american?


http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Sylvester-Stallone---Rocky-III-Photograph-C12150466.jpeg

With that list:

Can anyone be a good american?

Karma +1

This is the most salient point here.  People penning that kind of hate screed are just fascists trying to stir up bigotry and it is they who are not "good Americans."

The First Amendment says you can pledge allegiance to the kitchen sink and worship the refridgerator light.  You can order copies of the Constitution to start your cookstove with them. 

The only thing you cannot do in the practice of your religious and political beliefs is break the law.
That's what I learned growing up.  Damned public education!

When we stood for the Pledge of Allegiance in sixth grade, the two Jehova's Witness kids in our class did not.*  Any JW will tell you his loyalty is only to God and not to a flag or a constitution or a nation.  Are the JWs bad Americans too? 

The only reason I do not dismiss such missives as the garbage they are is the media gives--as in FOX News--gives the bigots a voice in public discourse.

*They caught hell from the redneck kids.  The teacher who went out of her way to tell those rednecks to shut up was Mrs. Curtis, a staunch conservative Catholic who made no bones about stating her beliefs, but, she said, "this is the United States of America.  You are free to believe what you want."

That is just idiotic, not to mention factually incorrect.

Can Catholics be good Americans if their first allegiance is to the Holy See?

Can Jews be good Americans if they're all so crazy about Israel?

Can Anglicans be good Americans if they're members of the C. of E.?

I can go on here...

And that 'moon god of Arabia' comment is so god-damned ignorant. Allah (Arabic for 'the one') is the same God of Abraham that the other two Abrahamic religions claim. Are people really that - wait. Of course they f***ing are. Who am I kidding.

No religion mixes that well with democracy when the religious people go kooky, and that includes Christians.

The US Constitution is not based on Biblical principles. These people are delusional. And how can one be theologically loyal to the US... is American imperialism a religion now? There are some country's one can be theologically loyal to, and those are mostly called theocracies. 

folks keep thinking along these lines and pretty soon we're gonna be looking at something an awful lot like genocide. thanks for sharing, semperfido, we all need to be reminded how ugly antiarab hatred has gotten these days. 8-P


That's what I was thinking, too.

Muslims acknowledge Jews and Christians as people of the book, correct?  They just believe that prophets aren't devine and that Muhammad was the last true prophet of God.  Regardless, if they would all stop and think how close their religions are, that their stories, except for the New Testament, are practically the same, then maybe these problems wouldn't be happening.  Their religious ways are similar to what Luther created with the split up of the Roman Catholic Church.  They are similar to Puritan ways.  They are a bit extreme, but they believe that one must fully submit to God.  That does not mean that they are all fundamentalists.  Muslims also believe in being kind to those less fortunate.  What difference is that from those who believe in the Bible?

Got this from wikipedia:

Zakat, or alms-giving. This is the practice of giving based on accumulated wealth, and is obligatory for all Muslims who can afford it. A fixed portion is spent to help the poor or needy, and also to assist the spread of Islam. The zakat is considered a religious obligation (as opposed to voluntary charity) that the well-off owe to the needy because their wealth is seen as a "trust from God's bounty". The Qur'an and the hadith also suggest a Muslim give even more as an act of voluntary alms-giving (sadaqah). Many Shi'ites are expected to pay an additional amount in the form of a khums tax, which they consider to be a separate ritual practice.

In addition to the khums tax, Shi'a Muslims consider three additional practices essential to the religion of Islam. The first is jihad, which is also important to the Sunni, but not considered a pillar. The second is Amr-Bil-Ma'rūf, the "Enjoining to Do Good", which calls for every Muslim to live a virtuous life and to encourage others to do the same. The third is Nahi-Anil-Munkar, the "Exhortation to Desist from Evil", which tells Muslims to refrain from vice and from evil actions and to also encourage others to do the same.

Islamic law does not distinguish between "matters of church" and "matters of state"; the ulema function as both jurists and theologians.
Any difference there than evangelicals?

People also seem to forget history.  The Crusades were all brought on by Christians against Muslims to take back the Holy land.  That and they were greedy.

Isn't Turkey an Islamic Democratic nation?

What is it really to be a good American?  The true American ideal is to let people live the way they want to live, within the boundaries of the law.  To practice your religion in peace.  To not practice religion.  To badmouth religion.  We all have those rights.   

       

 

Regardless, if they would all stop and think how close their religions are, that their stories, except for the New Testament, are practically the same, then maybe these problems wouldn't be happening. 

 


The Catholics and Anglicans can't even get it together.  It is a sad sorry situation. 

Isn't Turkey an Islamic Democratic nation?
   


If it was, it would have become a member of the European Union a long time ago - but negotiations and talks are dragging on for decades. There's still the minor issue of the Kurds to be settled... ::) I admit though that it is probably as close to democracy as any Islamic state can get.

I hate these chain email things.  It shows that the internet is just as much a tool of misinformation and prejudice as it is a tool for getting more informed.

A lot of people would say I'm not a good American.
::)

no its a paint by numbers religion!

a bit like good painters you will only be appreciated when you are all dead!!!!!!

the answer is yes.


neocons are to moderate muslims as fundamentalist muslims are to moderate jews.  ::)

folks keep thinking along these lines and pretty soon we're gonna be looking at something an awful lot like genocide. thanks for sharing, semperfido, we all need to be reminded how ugly antiarab hatred has gotten these days. 8-P


Mike, maybe you need to share that vid of Children of Men commentary; how our talk is hypocritical and the continuing practice of putting up walls.

the answer is yes.

Mike, maybe you need to share that vid of Children of Men commentary; how our talk is hypocritical and the continuing practice of putting up walls.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=s_yDI-Wg0Tw

good stuff. slavoj's accent is so sexy.

no its a paint by numbers religion!

Care to expand on that, or do you just have a brain lesion?

Care to expand on that, or do you just have a brain lesion?
oo! i think this thread is about to become very exciting.

oo! i think this thread is about to become very exciting.


Speaking of paint-by-numbers religion, when I was a kid our nextdoor neighbors had a funny-looking rendition of Da Vinci's Last Supper.  I was looking at it and their daughter said in her Massachusetts accent, "My mothah painted that, y'know." 
I said, "Nah-ah, a really favous artist painted that hundreds of years ago, we have it in a book at my house!"
She said, "No, she got one of those paint-by-numbahs kits in the mail, sorta like a colorin' book but way hahdah to do!"
And that was the first I heard of paint-by-numbers!
:P

Speaking of paint-by-numbers religion, when I was a kid our nextdoor neighbors had a funny-looking rendition of Da Vinci's Last Supper.  I was looking at it and their daughter said in her Massachusetts accent, "My mothah painted that, y'know." 
I said, "Nah-ah, a really favous artist painted that hundreds of years ago, we have it in a book at my house!"
She said, "No, she got one of those paint-by-numbahs kits in the mail, sorta like a colorin' book but way hahdah to do!"
And that was the first I heard of paint-by-numbers!
:P

somewhere i saw a really nice artist rendering of what the sistine chapel would look like as an unfilled paint by numbers puzzle. pretty cool.

do they still even have paint by numbers? i'm guessing zane is on the younger side (not sure why i think that  ::) )

*Ash* responded to this email using quotes from my sister:

I have to admit, I find this email more than a little disturbing.  As a good friend of mine pointed out, “It is just so reminiscent of the Nazi's viewpoints on the Jews.  I wonder what the solution people who are 'intellectually in agreement' would propose...forcible deportation of all Muslims in America, sending all American Muslims to internment camps so they can be contained and 'watched', declaring the Islamic faith illegal in America?â€�

Taken out of context, and spun a certain way, any religious text can seem barbaric, whether it be the Koran or the Bible.

A guy responded back to her with this:

Yes to all your suggestions on what to do with them and send your bleeding heart with them. You sound just like the idiots who tried to appease the Nazi's. These are our Nazi's and your dumb ass will be one of there victims

Im proud of some Americans.  Its all about hateful rhetoric and they do not know how to have a rational debate at all.  Of course this guy isn't worth my time, but I would really like to reply back to him.  I think it would be fun, plus I have nothing better to do.

You should tell him that he sucks :)

you know, if you want to argue with a character like that all you have to do is go to youtube and look for those US marine hoo-yah "we're kickin' terrorist ass in iraq!" videos (you can tell you're looking at one because they're all set to Linkin Park or System of a Down or something) and post something like "support the troops... bring em home!" or "impeach bush!" and you'll be arguing with like 10 of those guys within two minutes.

you know, if you want to argue with a character like that all you have to do is go to youtube and look for those US marine hoo-yah "we're kickin' terrorist ass in iraq!" videos (you can tell you're looking at one because they're all set to Linkin Park or System of a Down or something) and post something like "support the troops... bring em home!" or "impeach bush!" and you'll be arguing with like 10 of those guys within two minutes.


LoL.  That is true.  Probably why I didn't get along with the majority of Marines.  I was in the bastard child of the Marine Corps occupation anyway.  Most of us with my MOS didn't give a sheesh.  A big reason is because we were generally considered the smart Marines and could think for ourselves.  We were proud to be Marines, but we also hated military life and thought that the majority of it was BS.

LoL.  That is true.  Probably why I didn't get along with the majority of Marines.  I was in the bastard child of the Marine Corps occupation anyway.  Most of us with my MOS didn't give a sheesh.  A big reason is because we were generally considered the smart Marines and could think for ourselves.  We were proud to be Marines, but we also hated military life and thought that the majority of it was BS.


I'm curious as to what MOS you were....

There may be lots of stuff in the Quoran that are in contradiction to our more or less secular and Christo-judeaith beliefs, but there is a good deal of stuff, especially in the old testament, that most of us would find repulsive.  So the real question is, are Muslims living in the west fundamentalists (and as dangerous as our Christian fundamentalists, or are they progressive Muslims?  And in either case what to do?  My answer is that we support the First Amendment, essentially, FREEDOM OF THOUGHT.

So the real question is, are Muslims living in the west fundamentalists (and as dangerous as our Christian fundamentalists, or are they progressive Muslims? 
ISTM that just about any Muslim you're likely to meet will be a fairly Westernized un-fundamentalist type - certainly that's true of all the ones I've met round here (if you ignore the ones making bombs in the wood down the road)

The problem I have with the sort of bigotry shown in the email in the original post is that it shows exactly the same sort of "them and us" division as any other kind of fundamentalist - though if opinion polls are to be believed, I'm in an even less trusted group than Muslims :)

Seems to me, that whilst we're complaining about 'radical' Muslims doing X, Y & Z abroad, most people are happy to ignore the exploits of the enemy at home. The radical Christian, these blights on rational society exist in just as large numbers as radical Muslims and yet they're ignored, in some cases encouraged, is one form of terrorism better than another? I fail to see why we find it funny that those Suicide bombers expect 78 virgins in heaven and yet many of us entertain the deranged ramblings of evangelicals condoning murder, hatred, bigotry and violence right here in our own backyards.

The question remains 'Can a Muslim be a good American' but I'd like to pose my own, by these standards 'Can A Christian by a good American?'

I fail to see why we find it funny that those Suicide bombers expect 78 virgins in heaven and yet many of us entertain the deranged ramblings of evangelicals condoning murder, hatred, bigotry and violence right here in our own backyards.

I think it's supposed to be 72... it would be twice as many, but that would be gross ;)

I think it's supposed to be 72... it would be twice as many, but that would be gross ;)


72.. 78.. we all know that they're just nerds that died from playing too much D&D.  ;D

Seems to me, that whilst we're complaining about 'radical' Muslims doing X, Y & Z abroad, most people are happy to ignore the exploits of the enemy at home. The radical Christian, these blights on rational society exist in just as large numbers as radical Muslims and yet they're ignored, in some cases encouraged, is one form of terrorism better than another? I fail to see why we find it funny that those Suicide bombers expect 78 virgins in heaven and yet many of us entertain the deranged ramblings of evangelicals condoning murder, hatred, bigotry and violence right here in our own backyards.

The question remains 'Can a Muslim be a good American' but I'd like to pose my own, by these standards 'Can A Christian by a good American?'


Yes, and I believe that 99.9% of Christians in America are indeed good Americans - by ALL standards. It's always that 0.1% that f***s things up for the rest...

You know what...Merely posing these questions is ludicrous. It's like asking if a Masonist can be a good driver, or if a painter can be a good Canadian.  I don't know why I even bother to reply.

Yes, and I believe that 99.9% of Christians in America are indeed good Americans - by ALL standards. It's always that 0.1% that f***s things up for the rest...



I'm afraid I don't agree with your ratio there, sir.  At least 1% of any given group is no goddam good!
;D

I'm curious as to what MOS you were....


It wasn't so much as we didn't care as how we were treated by other MOS's.  I was a 2651, Special Intelligence Communicator.  I think alot of it had to do with my "A" school and duty stations.  We were considered as the ones who didn't care or caused problems, but we were smarter and alot of the Marines liked us.   

72.. 78.. we all know that they're just nerds that died from playing too much D&D.  ;D


Hey, I like D&D.  LoL.    ;D

I'm afraid I don't agree with your ratio there, sir.  At least 1% of any given group is no goddam good!
;D


I still stick with the 0.1% ratio. The way I see it, 99% of Christians are good Christians, 0.1% are bad, and the remaining 0.9% aren't Christians at all. ::)

I would say that a hell of a lot more than .1% of the so-called Christians in the US are totally whacked out on fire and brimstone. In one way or another, a large percentage of them are sexist, racist, elitist, nationalistic, violent at heart, judgemental, and/or hateful. Even if it's just a little bit, every little bit counts. Even more so when your church justifies it.

The thing about religions is that they like to be spread, and once accepted, they can believe whatever they want and justify it with their own made-up reasoning.

Say, neighbourhood minister. What's wrong with America?

Homosexuals, feminists, liberals, Muslims, Jews, atheists, abortionists and evolution.

How do you figure?

It's all right here in the Bible, boy. We're all goin' ta Hell!

 

Henk, the only way to describe what's going on in America is like this:

When there are Christian fudamentalists around spewing their garbage, the powers that be turn a blind eye to it, give a wink and a nudge, or agree with it. The SECOND someone mentions the words "Muslim Extremist", everyone flips out, starts suspecting people they've known for years of being terrorists, and don't bat an eye when Muslims are roughed up because they "MIGHT BE TERRORISTS". It is bullsh*t in the highest form, and pretty much stems from the 9/11 days when most of the country was brainwashed into believing Muslims were de debbil. ::)

Quite frankly, I'm not even sure what being a good American entails anymore. Does it mean selling your soul to the Christian Fundamentalist movement? Does it mean going into debt to live the so-called "American Dream"? I mean, really, is there a set definition of being a "Good American"?

Henk, the only way to describe what's going on in America is like this:

When there are Christian fudamentalists around spewing their garbage, the powers that be turn a blind eye to it, give a wink and a nudge, or agree with it. The SECOND someone mentions the words "Muslim Extremist", everyone flips out, starts suspecting people they've known for years of being terrorists, and don't bat an eye when Muslims are roughed up because they "MIGHT BE TERRORISTS". It is bullsh*t in the highest form, and pretty much stems from the 9/11 days when most of the country was brainwashed into believing Muslims were de debbil. ::)

Quite frankly, I'm not even sure what being a good American entails anymore. Does it mean selling your soul to the Christian Fundamentalist movement? Does it mean going into debt to live the so-called "American Dream"? I mean, really, is there a set definition of being a "Good American"?
props!

i tell ya right after 9.11 about my first concern was how the country was going to react to it. you could tell by the way the attacks were carried out (they hijacked planes and crashed them into buildings, which means they have no military infrastructure and so have to mount attacks by using the weight of american industrial might against itself) there would be no viable military solution to the conflict, and yet i knew that SOMEbody would have to be bombed for this, otherwise too many people in the US would not have enjoyed the sensation of having gotten revenge. it's led to a real poisonous atmostphere here in america, it's gotten a little better but it's still pretty awful.

That's just a stereotype! I know a few Islamic people and they are very nice. (And some are Republicans.)

I would say that a hell of a lot more than .1% of the so-called Christians in the US are totally whacked out on fire and brimstone. In one way or another, a large percentage of them are sexist, racist, elitist, nationalistic, violent at heart, judgemental, and/or hateful. Even if it's just a little bit, every little bit counts. Even more so when your church justifies it.

The thing about religions is that they like to be spread, and once accepted, they can believe whatever they want and justify it with their own made-up reasoning.

Say, neighbourhood minister. What's wrong with America?

Homosexuals, feminists, liberals, Muslims, Jews, atheists, abortionists and evolution.

How do you figure?

It's all right here in the Bible, boy. We're all goin' ta Hell!

 


I'm not gonna argue with you there. I know there's a lot of rotten apples. As for the percentages...well, that was just a figure of speech on my behalf, my point being: the vast majority of Christians are in fact good Christians (and good Americans).

Henk, the only way to describe what's going on in America is like this:

When there are Christian fudamentalists around spewing their garbage, the powers that be turn a blind eye to it, give a wink and a nudge, or agree with it. The SECOND someone mentions the words "Muslim Extremist", everyone flips out, starts suspecting people they've known for years of being terrorists, and don't bat an eye when Muslims are roughed up because they "MIGHT BE TERRORISTS". It is bullsh*t in the highest form, and pretty much stems from the 9/11 days when most of the country was brainwashed into believing Muslims were de debbil. ::)


This is the point I was attempting to make, maybe I didn't explain myself properly. When it's Christian filth committing vile acts it's ok, but when it's Islamic filth committing vile acts, we're all supposed to get up in arms about it. They're all scum to me.

That's just a stereotype! I know a few Islamic people and they are very nice. (And some are Republicans.)

A Muslim Republican?  Must be like a rabbi at a skinhead ralley!
:D

A Muslim Republican?  Must be like a rabbi at a skinhead ralley!
:D
a dude i used to work with was a really very pretty, effeminately gay staunch republican. miguel was his name, we called him "mig." if you were talking about gay rights issues he sounded like barney frank, any other issue he sounded like bill o'reilly. it was very odd.

he was movie-star pretty though. dag. not that i cared.

a dude i used to work with was a really very pretty, effeminately gay staunch republican. miguel was his name, we called him "mig." if you were talking about gay rights issues he sounded like barney frank, any other issue he sounded like bill o'reilly. it was very odd.

he was movie-star pretty though. dag. not that i cared.


Sounds like a Log Cabin boy!

Seriously, only in Ann Coulter's world are all gays Democrat (and all Democrats gay*), a lot of gays seem to be Libertarian types.  It's unusual for an out homosexual to embrace the "Culture Warrior" doctrine...but it happens.


* Coulter said Bill Clinton's went out womanizing to cover up his homosexuality!
:D 

* Coulter said Bill Clinton's went out womanizing to cover up his homosexuality!
:D 


She's just jealous because she's probably the only woman he wouldn't shag. But I bet he could if he wanted to. Never underestimate the power of a charmer like Bill.

Some men don't have to be rich or even handsome to sleep with any woman they want, they've just got charm. Reminds me of one of my old French profs. He's an old, balding smoker whom I would classify as being neither rich, nor handsome... but he had every chick in the class hanging on his every word. He could have had any one of them probably.