(Source: CBC News)

Angry youths fought running battles with police for a second night in a row in neighbourhoods outside Paris, injuring more than 77 police officers following the death of two teens killed in a crash with a police patrol car.

    Riot police face young residents of Villiers-le-Bel, a northern Paris suburb, while a garbage truck burns in the background during clashes late Monday. Riot police face young residents of Villiers-le-Bel, a northern Paris suburb, while a garbage truck burns in the background during clashes late Monday.

The violence late Monday and early Tuesday was more intense than during three weeks of rioting in 2005, said senior police union official Patrice Ribeiro. He said officers were shot at and are facing "genuine urban guerrillas with conventional weapons and hunting weapons."

Some officers were hit by shotgun pellets, Interior Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said. She said there were six serious injuries, "people who notably were struck in the face and close to the eyes."

The BBC reported five of the injured officers are said to be in critical condition.

The riots were triggered by the deaths of a 15-year-old and a 16-year-old killed in a crash with a police patrol car on Sunday in Villiers-le-Bel, a town of public housing blocks home to a mix of Arab, black and white residents in Paris' northern suburbs.
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French President Nicolas Sarkozy has appealed for calm while police braced for more problems.

The suburbs are dominated by African and Arab immigrants and their French-born children who complain of high unemployment and racial discrimination.

The scene of destruction was all too reminiscent of two years ago in the impoverished area, when some of the worst violence in France's history occurred in the wake of the deaths of two teenagers in an electrical substation following a police chase.

In the violence that consumed the neighbourhoods for weeks, rioters targeted schools, hospitals, buses and cars, leaving a wake of immense material destruction that prompted authorities to declare a state of emergency and impose curfews.

When these guys sing La Marseillaise, they mean it.

Aux armes citoyens
Formez vos bataillons...

The French authorities will win the battles today, but they'll lose the war tomorrow.  Doesn't really matter how one feels about it, the Muslim population is growing and the white/Christian populations in Western Europe are shrinking.  I'm just making an observation, not suggesting what anybody should do.

well...  There is a large ocean to the west of France....  The authorities have guns while most of the immigrants don't....

hmmm....  Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Mr. Sarkozy?...

Has a real feeling of tensions being exploited:

from the BBC"]Relatives of the two dead teenagers, who were both of North African descent, have insisted that police rammed their motorcycle before leaving them to die.

But the initial findings of an internal police probe, which found that police were not to blame, sparked anger in Villiers-le-Bel.

Police say the motorcycle was going at top speed and was not registered for street use, while the two boys - who have been named only as Moushin, 15, and Larami, 16 - were not wearing helmets and had been ignoring traffic rules.
ISTM that somebody has been intentionally stirring things up - though which version of events seems more credible, that a couple of teenagers were riding an unlicensed bike too fast, and it crashed into a police car; or that police intentionally rammed the motorbike?

Has a real feeling of tensions being exploited:
ISTM that somebody has been intentionally stirring things up - though which version of events seems more credible, that a couple of teenagers were riding an unlicensed bike too fast, and it crashed into a police car; or that police intentionally rammed the motorbike?


I would have to consult an idependent third party.  It is a mistake to immediately put ones trust in police officers. 

I would have to consult an idependent third party.  It is a mistake to immediately put ones trust in police officers. 


I reserve a certain amount of distrust toward authority, but I distrust these immigrants even more.

The problem with France is that they let in all these Muslims, but they don't want to hire them.  Either don't let them in your country in the first place, or hire them so that they don't get disenfranchised and crazy.

Has a real feeling of tensions being exploited:
ISTM that somebody has been intentionally stirring things up - though which version of events seems more credible, that a couple of teenagers were riding an unlicensed bike too fast, and it crashed into a police car; or that police intentionally rammed the motorbike?

Who is at fault in the incident no longer matters when tensions over social injustice are at a boiling point.  Once a crucial degree is reached, all that is needed is a catalyst.  Let's go back forty years to the Newark riots of 1967:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Newark_riots

Similarities?

How about a guy named Rodney King?

Who you want to blame for any given riot and for the factors leading up to it is a good subject for debate, but that's not my point here.  I'm just saying a riot involving poverty and ethnicity does not start with the first brick through a window; it starts months and years earlier. 

I reserve a certain amount of distrust toward authority, but I distrust these immigrants even more.

The problem with France is that they let in all these Muslims, but they don't want to hire them.  Either don't let them in your country in the first place, or hire them so that they don't get disenfranchised and crazy.



They're french,the same way Sarkozy is french.

They're french,the same way Sarkozy is french.




Well hey, I realize Sarkozy is an immigrant as well, but he never burned people's cars.

I'll say it again, they either need to find these people work, or just deport them.

Well hey, I realize Sarkozy is an immigrant as well, but he never burned people's cars.

I'll say it again, they either need to find these people work, or just deport them.


No he's not an immigrant,like they're not immigrants,don't say this is an immigration issue when it's not. This is the youth of France,misguided and violent,and proving to the world that Sarkozy in power didn't change a damn thing.

No he's not an immigrant,like they're not immigrants,don't say this is an immigration issue when it's not. This is the youth of France,misguided and violent,and proving to the world that Sarkozy in power didn't change a damn thing.


It is an immigration issue when it stems from French employers who don't want to hire people because they are North African and Muslim.  This is a very racial situation, but it would seem that France is in denial.  They either need to get over their prejudices or just tighten immigration more.

It's an immigration issue insofar as these kids are the French-born children of immigrants. Sarkozy is the French-born son of a Hungarian father.

It's very hard for anyone to get a job in France, because employers are forced to choose very wisely whom they hire, because once hired, it is very difficult to legally fire them. My French roommate tells me that when you go to a job interview in France, you walk into a waiting room of about 200 other people interviewing for the same job. How's that for discouraging?

It's an immigration issue insofar as these kids are the French-born children of immigrants. Sarkozy is the French-born son of a Hungarian father.

It's very hard for anyone to get a job in France, because employers are forced to choose very wisely whom they hire, because once hired, it is very difficult to legally fire them. By French roommate tells me that when you go to a job interview in France, you walk into a waiting room of about 200 other people interviewing for the same job. How's that for discouraging?


I don't want to sound fascist here, but maybe a corporate coup would be the best fate for France.  It sounds like organized labor has absolutely crippled them.

I find this especially ironic since America is exactly the opposite.  Corporations reign supreme here.

I don't want to sound fascist here, but maybe a corporate coup would be the best fate for France.  It sounds like organized labor has absolutely crippled them.

I find this especially ironic since America is exactly the opposite.  Corporations reign supreme here.

The French live longer, healthier lives with less stress and more leisure than Americans.  I don't think they've got it all wrong.

The French live longer, healthier lives with less stress and more leisure than Americans.  I don't think they've got it all wrong.



Word. There are problems, but they are more on track than the US in terms of humanity.

Well hey, I realize Sarkozy is an immigrant as well, but he never burned people's cars.

I'll say it again, they either need to find these people work, or just deport them.


Yes, but Sarkozy was probably not subjected to the virulent racist attitudes that the Arab population is subjected to, it does make a difference. You said that the French should improve their own attitude towards the Arab immigrant population or not let them in, or deport the ones that are here if they make trouble.  I would say that that is pretty much fascist.  We let you in, we exploit you, we deny you what we give others based on your ethnicity, then, when you decide that you deserve a fair shake we beat you into submission and send you back.  Pretty much what they thought would be a good idea for African Americans. "You're alright as long as your are  good little n***s, but give us some trouble and you are on your way."  In the 60s the college students of France rioted in the same way, the riots were in the name of social justice. They brought down the government of Charles DeGaulle, and are still hailed as heroes.  Of course they are "real French people", ... like Sarkozy?

The French live longer, healthier lives with less stress and more leisure than Americans.  I don't think they've got it all wrong.



Hey, I'm the first to admit that France has a better healthcare system than us.  The WHO ranks them as the best in the world.

I'm just saying that their labor situation has gotten out of hand.

Word. There are problems, but they are more on track than the US in terms of humanity.


Healthcare, not humanity.  We're both still major contributors to the world's arms trade.  I actually see many similarities between France and America in terms of independent thinking, but we have very different outlooks on labor rights and healthcare.

I think France has a much better healthcare system, but I think America has a much better business environment.

Yes, but Sarkozy was probably not subjected to the virulent racist attitudes that the Arab population is subjected to, it does make a difference. You said that the French should improve their own attitude towards the Arab immigrant population or not let them in, or deport the ones that are here if they make trouble.  I would say that that is pretty much fascist.  We let you in, we exploit you, we deny you what we give others based on your ethnicity, then, when you decide that you deserve a fair shake we beat you into submission and send you back.  Pretty much what they thought would be a good idea for African Americans. "You're alright as long as your are  good little n***s, but give us some trouble and you are on your way."  In the 60s the college students of France rioted in the same way, the riots were in the name of social justice. They brought down the government of Charles DeGaulle, and are still hailed as heroes.  Of course they are "real French people", ... like Sarkozy?


Times change.  If you start burning cars and rioting, you either need to go to jail or get kicked out.  When the race riots occurred in L.A. a while back, dozens of people were arrested -- as they should have been.  Just because your situation is bad, it doesn't give you the right to start destroying things.

Granted, I'm not absolving all responsibiilty of the French or the LAPD, I'm just saying there are much better ways to enact change than to riot.  For example, did MLK or Gandhi lead riots?  I don't think so.  Civil disobedience can accomplish much more than rioting.  So can strikes.

I think we can at least agree that the French need to get over their prejudices.  That would save them a lot of trouble, and it would be a much more logical move than deporting all these people.  The main reason why I mentioned deportation, however, was because I have a feeling that they won't overcome their prejudice.  France is similar to America in that we both have a very stubborn side.  Most of the nonwhite people I've known who have lived in France mentioned how they were discriminated against because of their race.  And before anyone mentions nationality, some of these people were Canadian, so it's not because they were American.

As backwards as America can often be, we can at least say that we are generally more liberal and progressive about race than the French are.  Hopefully, the French will follow our example on racial tolerance, and maybe we'll use their healthcare as a role model.

Hopefully, the French will follow our example on racial tolerance, and maybe we'll use their healthcare as a role model.


Oh good grief!
:D

Oh good grief!
:D



Someone has been living in a small world.  It is much easier to be an American Black in France the it is to be an American Black in America.  Again, this is first hand knowledge.  When I went over I could feel the tension until I opened my mouth and they heard my American accent.  My sister goes to Paris every year and doesn't have a problem, it is easier than being in Los Angeles or Boston.

Most of the nonwhite people I've known who have lived in France mentioned how they were discriminated against because of their race.


Most non-white people are discriminated against...everywhere! Paris is pretty multicultural,discrimination is more about your income than the color of your skin.

Healthcare, not humanity.  We're both still major contributors to the world's arms trade.  I actually see many similarities between France and America in terms of independent thinking, but we have very different outlooks on labor rights and healthcare.

I think France has a much better healthcare system, but I think America has a much better business environment.


What does that mean exactly, a much better business environment? If it means that the US is more exploitable by industry leaders, I would say you are right, but I would not say that this is a 'better' system.

Maybe labour unions in France have gotten out of hand, but at least French industry knows that it's only there because the people are willing to work for them in exchange for fair pay and benefits. And France isn't necessarily weaker because of it. It's all a question of national goals. If the national goal is to be the richest, biggest, most macho country on Earth, then letting a few million people fall through the cracks of industry doesn't seem like a big deal for a government. But if the goal is to first and foremost ensure a good living for all your country's workers, then France could definitely do a lot worse.

Someone has been living in a small world.  It is much easier to be an American Black in France the it is to be an American Black in America.  Again, this is first hand knowledge.  When I went over I could feel the tension until I opened my mouth and they heard my American accent.  My sister goes to Paris every year and doesn't have a problem, it is easier than being in Los Angeles or Boston.


Talk with East Asians and Muslims that have lived in France.  You'll feel differently about the French, and if you were a North African Muslim more specifically, you would feel VERY differently.

In short, most people in America are more likely to hire you here than in France because of your race and because of affirmative action, so don't start that intolerance bit -- it's very hackneyed now.  Some people here even have the nerve to demand reparations, which is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age.

Most non-white people are discriminated against...everywhere! Paris is pretty multicultural,discrimination is more about your income than the color of your skin.


And non-Muslim people are discriminated against in the Middle East, but I digress.

What does that mean exactly, a much better business environment? If it means that the US is more exploitable by industry leaders, I would say you are right, but I would not say that this is a 'better' system.

Maybe labour unions in France have gotten out of hand, but at least French industry knows that it's only there because the people are willing to work for them in exchange for fair pay and benefits. And France isn't necessarily weaker because of it. It's all a question of national goals. If the national goal is to be the richest, biggest, most macho country on Earth, then letting a few million people fall through the cracks of industry doesn't seem like a big deal for a government. But if the goal is to first and foremost ensure a good living for all your country's workers, then France could definitely do a lot worse.


I would rather a few million fall through the cracks if that means the average person lives better.  Wealth disparity is inevitable to a certain degree when you have a country as large and multicultural as ours.

Again, I still admire the French healthcare system, but I really think they have gone overboard with so-called labor rights.  Demanding fair pay is one thing -- perpetuating laziness is another.

I would rather a few million fall through the cracks if that means the average person lives better.  Wealth disparity is inevitable to a certain degree when you have a country as large and multicultural as ours.

Again, I still admire the French healthcare system, but I really think they have gone overboard with so-called labor rights.  Demanding fair pay is one thing -- perpetuating laziness is another.



The average French citizen lives not only very well, but daresay that he risks living better and longer than the average American.

The average French citizen lives not only very well, but daresay that he risks living better and longer than the average American.


Longer, yes.  Better...  well, I suppose that depends on what you mean.  They certainly have better healthcare, but Americans generally have more disposable income and much lower taxes.

I was only stating that I prefer a higher material standard of living.  I guess I should have been more specific.

Longer, yes.  Better...  well, I suppose that depends on what you mean.  They certainly have better healthcare, but Americans generally have more disposable income and much lower taxes.

I was only stating that I prefer a higher material standard of living.  I guess I should have been more specific.


It's true that much of this is an entirely subjective affair. I like material things as much as the next guy. Just like when I was a little boy, I love to get new toys and go places. However, I also recognise that a lot of North Americans work too much, buy too much stuff, and enjoy the income they do have less. At least in Europe, employers give each employee a mandated paid-vacation every year of 4-6 weeks. The US has NO minimum vacation requirement, and Canada has only between 10-15 mandated paid days depending on which province you live in, plus federal and provincial holidays.

Australia gives 4 weeks, Austria 5, Germany 4, UK 4.8, New Zealand 4, Japan 5, France 5...

25% of US employees get no paid holiday, whereas those employees who do receive a standard of about 10 days per year plus national holidays. A pittance. No wonder most Americans will never step foot outside of the country. They don't have time.

I would rather a few million fall through the cracks if that means the average person lives better.  Wealth disparity is inevitable to a certain degree when you have a country as large and multicultural as ours.

Again, I still admire the French healthcare system, but I really think they have gone overboard with so-called labor rights.  Demanding fair pay is one thing -- perpetuating laziness is another.


Wealth disparity is inevitable; it's a matter of degree we are talking about.

Democracy will not survive without a middle class, and the corporate elite do not want the middle class to survive.  Of course, the middle class are their customer base, but greed is blinding.  When 1% of the population owns 50% of the wealth, that is a dangerous situation. 

It's true that much of this is an entirely subjective affair. I like material things as much as the next guy. Just like when I was a little boy, I love to get new toys and go places. However, I also recognise that a lot of North Americans work too much, buy too much stuff, and enjoy the income they do have less. At least in Europe, employers give each employee a mandated paid-vacation every year of 4-6 weeks. The US has NO minimum vacation requirement, and Canada has only between 10-15 mandated paid days depending on which province you live in, plus federal and provincial holidays.

Australia gives 4 weeks, Austria 5, Germany 4, UK 4.8, New Zealand 4, Japan 5, France 5...

25% of US employees get no paid holiday, whereas those employees who do receive a standard of about 10 days per year plus national holidays. A pittance. No wonder most Americans will never step foot outside of the country. They don't have time.


That's all very true, but...  We also have much lower unemployment rates than all the countries you mentioned.

Granted, Canada seems to have the best of both worlds.  They have only slightly higher unemployment than America, but they have a lot more labor rights than we do.  So, I think Canada is really the country to use as a role model, since they seem to have found a happy medium between labor rights and a competitive business environment.

I've never been to Canada, but I'm going by everything I've read.  I've researched quite a bit about Canada, but it would be interesting to hear from you whether or not the statistics seem to really add up.  What has your experience been up there?

Wealth disparity is inevitable; it's a matter of degree we are talking about.

Democracy will not survive without a middle class, and the corporate elite do not want the middle class to survive.  Of course, the middle class are their customer base, but greed is blinding.  When 1% of the population owns 50% of the wealth, that is a dangerous situation. 



True.  I would agree with you that we are moving in the wrong direction when it comes to wealth disparity.  Still, I wouldn't want to go to the other extreme that France currently experiences.

As I mentioned in another post, I think Canada has found the ideal wealth disparity for a nation its size or larger.

I've never been to Canada, but I'm going by everything I've read.  I've researched quite a bit about Canada, but it would be interesting to hear from you whether or not the statistics seem to really add up.  What has your experience been up there?


It's difficult to say. It depends on where you live. In general, Canada has a booming economy, and in a lot of industries there are more jobs than there are people to fill them. But industries are different in every province. Canada is so diverse in every way, industry included. On a personal note, I am an English-Canadian in rural Quebec , which can be a pretty xenophobic territory, but I still was able to find a market where the skills I have were needed (I teach English). I am very confident that after university I'll be able to make the transition to the 'real world' quite easily, even if it means moving (and I will certainly be moving).

But we face difficulties as well. One of them is that it can be pretty tempting to believe your own publicity. Ours tells us that we top this list, are in the top 5 on another... and this makes people take for granted the idea that Canada is a country with low crime rates, low unemployment rates etc... So we get lazy and ignore the real problems of inner-city poverty, gangs, lack of innovation in provincial Medicare schemes etc... telling ourselves all the time that "things couldn't be better." Canada has problems in every arena you could think of, but every society does I guess. It's a challenge first to accept the existence of these problems, and then to intelligently fix them.

One thing I rather like about France is its fairly aggressive secularity: religion is something personal, not to be flaunted or in any way imposed upon others (especially in state-controlled arenas such as schools, courts, etc.).  One of the major grievances of especially North African Muslim immigrants is a feeling of persecution, 'cause they're not allowed to practice their religion in the same way as they would back home - is that right or wrong?  I don't know..  But it is the culture they're moving into, and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of tolerance of that.